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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 7, 2020 20:52:42 GMT
Then your entire first reply was dismissive bullshit utterly unworthy of response? Groovy I agree. Seriously make up your mind, you can't label one thing canon and disregard the other bits after all, just because Disney's dumb little comics prove my point right doesn't mean that they aren't official products after all. ah. Now I get where you are coming from. I suppose that's a fair observation... but you still seem to be stretching since I don't believe I've never called them canon, I just haven't read them...and I doubt they'll change my opinion. One, no you can't just insert yourself on to the other side to act the part of impartial mediator. Two, I didn't even bring up this topic. Three, It isn't Luke is the better character with an actual arc and story line progression. I'm mot an impartial moderator, never was, never claimed to be. I love Luke, Rey, and Star Wars...I'm defending what I love and giving the reasons on why I love it. I just find this constant in fighting, among all fandoms, a bit silly. I am not stretching shit, I am treating an official product as an official product and nothing else. Not my fault that in the aftermath of the oh so originally named Last Jedi they had to justify a lot with the characters. Call it a problem that they themselves invented for themselves.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 7, 2020 20:55:04 GMT
No? Because now I recall via just rolling back a few pages that was indeed you. " See above" means "read what I have written higher in this same post to other guy, it answers your question". I even boldened the most important part of my argument. I do find it amusing that your dropped the Luke V Rey comparison immediately when I pointed out that Luke could have spent like half a year with Yoda. I didnt drop anything and Luke could have spent two days on Dagobah if you watch the movie. Truly? Because that line got abandoned in a hurry as its not implied how long he spent there save the time it took the Falcon to get to Cloud City, that's the only metric of time presented in the films and you asserting that it was two days goes contrary to literally everything ever written about it back in the EU, by Lucas, or even the new shit. The high end water mark as I said before was half a year.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 7, 2020 21:06:44 GMT
On the topic of character arcs (since MWZ bought it up) it is something that has bugged me a lot of late. Now I stress this is not an attack on Luke by and large I find him to be the better written character but it's kind of interesting that it seems like he has a flat arc...while Rey has a positive growth arc.
In the Force Awakens when we meet Rey she is a junker scavenger who (ghost from her past/ wound) was abandoned by her parents from a young age. This has allowed her to be a very practical knowledgeable woman on a wide variety of topics probably far beyond her years but this has also led her (big lie) to delude herslef into the belief that her parents will come back for her, or that she needs some other replacement for her family to give her meaning. This lie causes her to stay on Jakku or want to stay on Jakku, a place very debilitating to her health, despite having opprotunity to leave...or want to stay afterwards. Later this lie is exposed by Kylo Ren (in an attempt to have him give her life meaning) and she rejects him and begins to look at herself. Which, then she is forced to confront her own destiny and forge a identity for herself. She finds out Palpetine is her grandfather who once more offers to give her a place in the story by making her Empress, (the lie makes one last attempt to corrupt her), she ultimatley chooses to reject him and takes the name Skywalker, finding an identity for herself and becoming a better person then when she started.
What is Luke's ghost? The best I can think of is curiosity about his father.
What is Luke's big lie? The best I can think of is that his father and Darth Vader is the same person.
But neither of these...sounds quite right.
But how does it change him for the better or force him to confront himself? Luke just would've acted how he always was established to act. He was always a very idealistic person and what...was he going to not try and redeam his father? Luke Skywalker in the OT?
Again its the ideal that is attractive about him. Luke is a very idealistic character and all of his struggles are external, instead of internal.
Rey is a very sympathetic character. Her struggles are entirely internal to herself and her greatest enemy, at the end of the day, was herself. Rey's flaws make her relatable...Luke's idealism makes him someone to strive for. Both very different heroes. Neither of them special god mode snowflakes.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2020 21:26:19 GMT
No? Because now I recall via just rolling back a few pages that was indeed you. I do find it amusing that your dropped the Luke V Rey comparison immediately when I pointed out that Luke could have spent like half a year with Yoda. So of course you try again despite the fact that Luke comes out looking better in this regard as well. why does it have to be a competition? I like Luke more then I like Rey (largely because of TLJ) but this constant bickering between the OT and NT is really weird. So it's Jake Skywalker you like. Because even Mark Hamill didn't think TLJ was how Luke would have behaved.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2020 21:48:52 GMT
On the topic of character arcs (since MWZ bought it up) it is something that has bugged me a lot of late. Now I stress this is not an attack on Luke by and large I find him to be the better written character but it's kind of interesting that it seems like he has a flat arc...while Rey has a positive growth arc. In the Force Awakens when we meet Rey she is a junker scavenger who (ghost from her past/ wound) was abandoned by her parents from a young age. This has allowed her to be a very practical knowledgeable woman on a wide variety of topics probably far beyond her years but this has also led her (big lie) to delude herslef into the belief that her parents will come back for her, or that she needs some other replacement for her family to give her meaning. This lie causes her to stay on Jakku or want to stay on Jakku, a place very debilitating to her health, despite having opprotunity to leave...or want to stay afterwards. Later this lie is exposed by Kylo Ren (in an attempt to have him give her life meaning) and she rejects him and begins to look at herself. Which, then she is forced to confront her own destiny and forge a identity for herself. She finds out Palpetine is her grandfather who once more offers to give her a place in the story by making her Empress, (the lie makes one last attempt to corrupt her), she ultimatley chooses to reject him and takes the name Skywalker, finding an identity for herself and becoming a better person then when she started. What is Luke's ghost? The best I can think of is curiosity about his father. What is Luke's big lie? The best I can think of is that his father and Darth Vader is the same person. But neither of these...sounds quite right. But how does it change him for the better or force him to confront himself? Luke just would've acted how he always was established to act. He was always a very idealistic person and what...was he going to not try and redeam his father? Luke Skywalker in the OT? Again its the ideal that is attractive about him. Luke is a very idealistic character and all of his struggles are external, instead of internal. Rey is a very sympathetic character. Her struggles are entirely internal to herself and her greatest enemy, at the end of the day, was herself. Rey's flaws make her relatable...Luke's idealism makes him someone to strive for. Both very different heroes. Neither of them special god mode snowflakes. Rey does everything Luke can do, but better. Luke was "abandoned" by his parents at a young age. And while he 's a skilled pilot, he's not exactly "knowledgeable" in a wide variety of topics. Given she can barely afford food with her scrap collecting, I don't think she really "chooses" to stay on Jakku. As for Luke, the change in him is, when he learned that Vader was Anakin, fighting him became a lot more complicated. How can you kill your own father, despite everything he did? This was why Obi Won and Yoda kept this from him. And Vader's revelation rally threw a spanner in their plans. Rey may be a "sympathetic" character, but she's a very poorly written one. Whenever there's a struggle, she just...succeeds. She doesn't need anyone, everyone needs her! She doesn't need to be taught anything, she does the teaching. She doesn't need rescuing, she rescues. And as she goes along, she collects trophies from teh original cast: Lightsaber, ship, wookie, etc. Finn was far more interesting. A renegade storm trooper trying to figure out who he wants to be. Stumbling about, getting in over his head. Finding his courage. The sequel trilogy would have been better off with him as the protagonist. A pity his character and arc was largely wasted in The Last Dumpster Fire.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 7, 2020 23:07:41 GMT
An elegant character for a more kino canon.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 7, 2020 23:08:14 GMT
As far as the droids. You're saying that there are loads of functioning droids of downed Star Destroyers decades after the war?
Why not? Stuff is made tuff in the galaxy far far awy. R2 sank is a swamp and simply poped up the periscope. They show DIO robot only needed his battery recharged. So they're loads of functioning, unscavenged droids all around, and she's dirt poor, turning in scraps, only able to afford a portion of a meal?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 7, 2020 23:14:09 GMT
why does it have to be a competition? I like Luke more then I like Rey (largely because of TLJ) but this constant bickering between the OT and NT is really weird. So it's Jake Skywalker you like. Because even Mark Hamill didn't think TLJ was how Luke would have behaved. With respect to Mark Hamil and yourself...I disagree. I loved Luke in the OT, I love Luke now. He is my favorite SWs character and I don't divide them...and you know this. And as much as I might think Mark Hamil is awesome I am rather glad he didn't have creative control over the NT considering he would've had Luke catch the Lightsaber in TFA and yeah...problematic is the least that idea can be called. On the topic of character arcs (since MWZ bought it up) it is something that has bugged me a lot of late. Now I stress this is not an attack on Luke by and large I find him to be the better written character but it's kind of interesting that it seems like he has a flat arc...while Rey has a positive growth arc. In the Force Awakens when we meet Rey she is a junker scavenger who (ghost from her past/ wound) was abandoned by her parents from a young age. This has allowed her to be a very practical knowledgeable woman on a wide variety of topics probably far beyond her years but this has also led her (big lie) to delude herslef into the belief that her parents will come back for her, or that she needs some other replacement for her family to give her meaning. This lie causes her to stay on Jakku or want to stay on Jakku, a place very debilitating to her health, despite having opprotunity to leave...or want to stay afterwards. Later this lie is exposed by Kylo Ren (in an attempt to have him give her life meaning) and she rejects him and begins to look at herself. Which, then she is forced to confront her own destiny and forge a identity for herself. She finds out Palpetine is her grandfather who once more offers to give her a place in the story by making her Empress, (the lie makes one last attempt to corrupt her), she ultimatley chooses to reject him and takes the name Skywalker, finding an identity for herself and becoming a better person then when she started. What is Luke's ghost? The best I can think of is curiosity about his father. What is Luke's big lie? The best I can think of is that his father and Darth Vader is the same person. But neither of these...sounds quite right. But how does it change him for the better or force him to confront himself? Luke just would've acted how he always was established to act. He was always a very idealistic person and what...was he going to not try and redeam his father? Luke Skywalker in the OT? Again its the ideal that is attractive about him. Luke is a very idealistic character and all of his struggles are external, instead of internal. Rey is a very sympathetic character. Her struggles are entirely internal to herself and her greatest enemy, at the end of the day, was herself. Rey's flaws make her relatable...Luke's idealism makes him someone to strive for. Both very different heroes. Neither of them special god mode snowflakes. Rey does everything Luke can do, but better. Luke was "abandoned" by his parents at a young age. And while he 's a skilled pilot, he's not exactly "knowledgeable" in a wide variety of topics. Given she can barely afford food with her scrap collecting, I don't think she really "chooses" to stay on Jakku. As for Luke, the change in him is, when he learned that Vader was Anakin, fighting him became a lot more complicated. How can you kill your own father, despite everything he did? This was why Obi Won and Yoda kept this from him. And Vader's revelation rally threw a spanner in their plans. Rey may be a "sympathetic" character, but she's a very poorly written one. Whenever there's a struggle, she just...succeeds. She doesn't need anyone, everyone needs her! She doesn't need to be taught anything, she does the teaching. She doesn't need rescuing, she rescues. And as she goes along, she collects trophies from teh original cast: Lightsaber, ship, wookie, etc. Finn was far more interesting. A renegade storm trooper trying to figure out who he wants to be. Stumbling about, getting in over his head. Finding his courage. The sequel trilogy would have been better off with him as the protagonist. A pity his character and arc was largely wasted in The Last Dumpster Fire. We've been through this, I disagree with you here. Rey can't do everything Luke can do but better. She MIGHT be the better pilot (though they are both kinda crappy in this regard so...) and she is probably the better swords...person...but Luke is much stronger in the Force and did Force feats far in advance of anything she has thus far demonstrated in the movies. Again, by the end of 9 its close but I still have to give the overall superiority to Luke. But my point is what did that change in his character? Had Luke in Episode 4 known the secret from the beginning he would've done what he did in Episode 6,...try and save him. Sure through the trilogy he got a little less rash and had more seasoning BUT he didn't really change who he was as a person internally. Again all the obstacles he faced were external, not internal. As far as Rey is concerned I she's not as well written as Luke is, but I find her arc to be extremly well written and compelling. See my above comments to MWZ which apparently pissed him off.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 7, 2020 23:31:29 GMT
On the topic of character arcs (since MWZ bought it up) it is something that has bugged me a lot of late. Now I stress this is not an attack on Luke by and large I find him to be the better written character but it's kind of interesting that it seems like he has a flat arc...while Rey has a positive growth arc. In the Force Awakens when we meet Rey she is a junker scavenger who (ghost from her past/ wound) was abandoned by her parents from a young age. This has allowed her to be a very practical knowledgeable woman on a wide variety of topics probably far beyond her years but this has also led her (big lie) to delude herslef into the belief that her parents will come back for her, or that she needs some other replacement for her family to give her meaning. This lie causes her to stay on Jakku or want to stay on Jakku, a place very debilitating to her health, despite having opprotunity to leave...or want to stay afterwards. Later this lie is exposed by Kylo Ren (in an attempt to have him give her life meaning) and she rejects him and begins to look at herself. Which, then she is forced to confront her own destiny and forge a identity for herself. She finds out Palpetine is her grandfather who once more offers to give her a place in the story by making her Empress, (the lie makes one last attempt to corrupt her), she ultimatley chooses to reject him and takes the name Skywalker, finding an identity for herself and becoming a better person then when she started. What is Luke's ghost? The best I can think of is curiosity about his father. What is Luke's big lie? The best I can think of is that his father and Darth Vader is the same person. But neither of these...sounds quite right. But how does it change him for the better or force him to confront himself? Luke just would've acted how he always was established to act. He was always a very idealistic person and what...was he going to not try and redeam his father? Luke Skywalker in the OT? Again its the ideal that is attractive about him. Luke is a very idealistic character and all of his struggles are external, instead of internal. Rey is a very sympathetic character. Her struggles are entirely internal to herself and her greatest enemy, at the end of the day, was herself. Rey's flaws make her relatable...Luke's idealism makes him someone to strive for. Both very different heroes. Neither of them special god mode snowflakes. Rey does everything Luke can do, but better. Luke was "abandoned" by his parents at a young age. And while he 's a skilled pilot, he's not exactly "knowledgeable" in a wide variety of topics. Given she can barely afford food with her scrap collecting, I don't think she really "chooses" to stay on Jakku. As for Luke, the change in him is, when he learned that Vader was Anakin, fighting him became a lot more complicated. How can you kill your own father, despite everything he did? This was why Obi Won and Yoda kept this from him. And Vader's revelation rally threw a spanner in their plans. Rey may be a "sympathetic" character, but she's a very poorly written one. Whenever there's a struggle, she just...succeeds. She doesn't need anyone, everyone needs her! She doesn't need to be taught anything, she does the teaching. She doesn't need rescuing, she rescues. And as she goes along, she collects trophies from teh original cast: Lightsaber, ship, wookie, etc.
Finn was far more interesting. A renegade storm trooper trying to figure out who he wants to be. Stumbling about, getting in over his head. Finding his courage. The sequel trilogy would have been better off with him as the protagonist. A pity his character and arc was largely wasted in The Last Dumpster Fire. This is basically the biggest problem with her character. She's given everything in the movies, especially the first two, and she didn't really work to earn any of it. She can just use the force without any apparent training. She can just handle a lightsaber without any apparent training. Finn says we need a pilot, she just says I'm a pilot, with no foundation. Anakins's lightsaber calls out to her, while Luke, his son, goes to Obi-Wan's house and Obi-Wan says oh, let me go get something from the closet without Luke feeling anything from it. I somewhat agree on Finn. But I really don't think they did a good job developing any of them. The fact that they could give Poe a backstory in the last movie speaks volumes about the character development up to that point. Also, once Finn meets the woman from the battalion of renegade troopers that really destroys one of his unique qualities in the film. If desertion is that rampant it just devalues Finn as well as First Order troops in general after Hux's whole my troops are the best, programmed from birth, or whatever he said. But when you have two directors telling contradicting stories, this is what you get.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 7, 2020 23:35:57 GMT
Something I was wondering earlier: What would Rey's Darth name be? Darth Fanfic
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 8, 2020 0:29:39 GMT
See my above comments to MWZ which apparently pissed him off. More like all the sidestepping annoyed me, I am using actual canon material to state my point and it was disregarded as fan material or opinion or whatever when nope, Disney signed off on it and its an official comic. Its a stupid and pointless deflection again because I can point to the Disney backed CBR and boom, any assertion of it being "my" opinion disintegrates. Its Disney canon. .___. What was the point of this little bending of the truth?
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 8, 2020 0:53:05 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Jan 8, 2020 1:09:27 GMT
See my above comments to MWZ which apparently pissed him off. More like all the sidestepping annoyed me, I am using actual canon material to state my point and it was disregarded as fan material or opinion or whatever when nope, Disney signed off on it and its an official comic. Its a stupid and pointless deflection again because I can point to the Disney backed CBR and boom, any assertion of it being "my" opinion disintegrates. Its Disney canon. .___. What was the point of this little bending of the truth? No bending of the truth here. Just a continuing miscommunication and different intereptation of the events. If you are reffering to my specific post you are quoting...well you certainly seemed mad over something.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 8, 2020 1:10:51 GMT
So here's a recap about how the galaxy learned of Palpatine's survival, and yes Disney did this. [breathes heavily, nostrils flaring] One hour later...[sigh] Somehow Palpatine returned.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 8, 2020 1:18:55 GMT
More like all the sidestepping annoyed me, I am using actual canon material to state my point and it was disregarded as fan material or opinion or whatever when nope, Disney signed off on it and its an official comic. Its a stupid and pointless deflection again because I can point to the Disney backed CBR and boom, any assertion of it being "my" opinion disintegrates. Its Disney canon. .___. What was the point of this little bending of the truth? No bending of the truth here. Just a continuing miscommunication and different intereptation of the events. If you are reffering to my specific post you are quoting...well you certainly seemed mad over something. This is literally a meme now.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 8, 2020 1:49:41 GMT
*chills* But it cut out too early!
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 8, 2020 2:03:59 GMT
*Will need to watch the video posted above later, but it would be very interesting to see
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 8, 2020 3:38:00 GMT
I miss our Princess
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Post by colfoley on Jan 8, 2020 4:08:16 GMT
It occurs to me:
There was an interview with Daisy Ridley somtime after TFA came out (but before Episode 8) where she mentioned that she was surprised that 'no one had figured out' who her parents were and that it was 'obvious.'
Now she could be trolling or the plan could've changed with Last Jedi...but that is some indication that there was some thought in put into it...and what if it didn't change? There is a lot of evidence to support the lineage before Rise.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 8, 2020 4:45:50 GMT
I keep reading how overpowered Rey is, to which I could not agree less. Then... watching Attack of Clones (as I am wont to do) I realized these clowns gave Rey a Force ability Anakin desperately WISHED he had when he rescued his mom and she died in his arms. I'm like, "Really?" They gave Rey the one power that would have obviated the catastrophic experience that trips overpowered vergence-in-the-force Anakin off into the dark side? P.S. Dunno why I think this is so funny
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Post by colfoley on Jan 8, 2020 4:58:49 GMT
I keep reading how overpowered Rey is, to which I could not agree less. Then... watching Attack of Clones (as I am wont to do) I realized these clowns gave Rey a Force ability Anakin desperately WISHED he had when he rescued his mom and she died in his arms. I'm like, "Really?" They gave Rey the one power that would have obviated the catastrophic experience that trips overpowered vergence-in-the-force Anakin off into the dark side? what's amusing is had the Jedi Council known about such powers they'd likely consider it to be of the dark side given Yoda's words when Anakin came to him about Padme.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2020 5:03:52 GMT
I keep reading how overpowered Rey is, to which I could not agree less. Then... watching Attack of Clones (as I am wont to do) I realized these clowns gave Rey a Force ability Anakin desperately WISHED he had when he rescued his mom and she died in his arms. I'm like, "Really?" They gave Rey the one power that would have obviated the catastrophic experience that trips overpowered vergence-in-the-force Anakin off into the dark side? what's amusing is had the Jedi Council known about such powers they'd likely consider it to be of the dark side given Yoda's words when Anakin came to him about Padme. Well, the only other Force user we've seen use that ability also used Force Choke (Baby Yoda).
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
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Obadiah
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obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 8, 2020 5:11:56 GMT
what's amusing is had the Jedi Council known about such powers they'd likely consider it to be of the dark side given Yoda's words when Anakin came to him about Padme. Well, the only other Force user we've seen use that ability also used Force Choke (Baby Yoda). Wait... baby Yoda can Force heal? I'm sure Anakin's force ghost head is spinning.
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Sept 27, 2024 23:23:21 GMT
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2020 5:27:03 GMT
Well, the only other Force user we've seen use that ability also used Force Choke (Baby Yoda). Wait... baby Yoda can Force heal? I'm sure Anakin's force ghost head is spinning. Yeah. He tries to heal Mando in Episode 2 and heals the Guildmaster in Episode 7. So both in canon timeline and reality Rey wasn’t the first to have this power.
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 8, 2020 5:30:43 GMT
Wait... baby Yoda can Force heal? I'm sure Anakin's force ghost head is spinning. Yeah. He tries to heal Mando in Episode 2 and heals the Guildmaster in Episode 7. So both in canon timeline and reality Rey wasn’t the first to have this power. Right, so for minute there Kylo finally became more powerful than Vader. Guess he checked that off his bucket list.
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