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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2020 22:47:02 GMT
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Heimdall
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 8, 2020 23:01:57 GMT
Even in SWs its maddening that Obi-wan, one of the strongest councilors ever, gets tossed around like a rag doll by Dooku and yet is able to go toe to toe with the Chosen One. Or I was watching an episode of Clone Wars the other day and it was established that size matters not AND YET it took both Obi-wan and Anakin to lift a boulder. My understanding was that Obi Won was only of average strength. The reason he could hold out so long against Anakin was because he trained him, and knew all his moves, strengths, and weaknesses better than anyone else. Well, he was a master on the Council so him being average might be overstating the matter. I think the biggest factors were: 1 - Knew Anakin’s moves better than anyone 2 - Anakin not being in his right mind 3 - Obi-Wan being a master of defensive fighting, he basically specializes in allowing his opponent’s to wear themselves out until they make mistakes, which is pretty much how their duel went
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Post by colfoley on Jan 8, 2020 23:12:14 GMT
Even in SWs its maddening that Obi-wan, one of the strongest councilors ever, gets tossed around like a rag doll by Dooku and yet is able to go toe to toe with the Chosen One. That's only an issue if one assumes that the force works by just making wishes and believing. If one ignores such an idiotic concept and instead goes by the older idea of raw potential not meaning much without learning how to properly apply it then it makes perfect sense. Dooku is far older than Obi-Wan, and he's spent pretty much his entire life learning how to maximise his potential, especially when up against other force users. That's why he's one of very, very few makashi/form 2 users. Its an anti-lightsabre sightsabre style. Imagine watching an arm wrestling competition between 2 other people. One is a weight lifting champion, the other is a arm wrestling professional of mid tier level. I'd bet on the arm wrestler winning, despite the weight lifter having more muscle and more trophies. Looking at just the Lukas films, Obi-Wans performance VS those two is internally consistent. If its inconsistent with the Disney "films" then that's a Disney problem, not a Star Wars problem. Oh I know there's explanations. Iakus and Heimdal raise a couple of good ones and Heimdal pretty much tracks with what I believe. Obi was a master with the saber and Soresu fighting and let his Force Defenses (for lack of a better term) lack. And yet Anakin is supposedly the Chosen One and in some of the novels and The Clone Wars does some ridicliously strong Force Feats of his own, sure he focused on Lightsaber mastery too, but it is a little weird how he didn't just force pull obi-wan into the lava when Obi-Wan 'had the high ground'. Either way its not a big issue for me it doesen't effect my enjoyment of the movies just something that bugs me every now and then. There are far worse issues with Revenge of the Sith. As far as Disney Star Wars vs. Star Wars Star Wars...well as Hanako pointed out Disney IS Star Wars now. There is no difference between the two and no major contradictions. I don't know how much of my posts you read when I was discussing this issue with Cypher and everyone else but I believe that belief in your abilities is only one part of using the Force. Mental discipling and concentration are also big parts of it. And as far as where I get this idea from...well its supported and my intepretation of the Luke's training scene with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Also to a lesser extent Luke escaping the Wampa from that movie. But that whole scene makes it very clear, to me, that in order to use the Force you have to believe its possible, the clincher is when Luke was like "I don't believe it" and Yoda's response was "And that is why you fail." You may have a different intrepation of the events then I do, and it seems like you probably do...BUT I don't get this notion about Belief from Episodes 7-9, but through Episodes 4-6...and very little in the rest of the Saga contradicts that message.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 8, 2020 23:14:09 GMT
My understanding was that Obi Won was only of average strength. The reason he could hold out so long against Anakin was because he trained him, and knew all his moves, strengths, and weaknesses better than anyone else. Well, he was a master on the Council so him being average might be overstating the matter. I think the biggest factors were: 1 - Knew Anakin’s moves better than anyone 2 - Anakin not being in his right mind 3 - Obi-Wan being a master of defensive fighting, he basically specializes in allowing his opponent’s to wear themselves out until they make mistakes, which is pretty much how their duel went The darkside of the force is a helluva drug, always take in moderation .
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Post by skekSil on Jan 8, 2020 23:30:07 GMT
Traveling light years at sublight speeds is gonna take a while. That's not an implication, that's a fact. and him not knowing the time it will take a sublightspeed ship to cover the distance of a light-year or few to the next star system, beyond having Han state "It's a long way but i think we can make it". 2 days won't cover it. They got from Hoth system to Anoat system (where they drift away with garbage) on sublight engines in a couple of hours/days. Granted there are few external clues, such as beards or changes of clothes. But Han and Leia remain remarkably clean while hanging with the Ewoks too. And there are no changes of clothes When the Falcon travels from Tatooine to Alderaan. Or from Alderaan to Yavin. My point is if they wanted to show a lot of time has passed they could have used any of these simple tricks to show it. People are all happy how Lukas sets up Luke to be a pilot but skip how he doesnt set up this passage of time. I'd say the Han and Leia romance advances quite far given they started out on Hoth with "I'd rather kiss a Wookie!" and ends on Bespin with "I love you" She kisses him when they hide in asteroid. And all she does in the next few months is begrudgingly admit that she loves him? I bet they'd be working on lil' Ben with all that free time. But I digress to much, this isn't a serious complaint just a small point. Why keep chasing them, lose more fighters, tie up the Executer and the rest of its flotilla, Only Vader ends up bringing Executer to Bespin anyway. I mean this number 1 priority given by Emperor himself. when they could beat them to Bespin set a trap for them, AND set up a trap for Luke all on one go? What if something happens to Falcon during its jorney? What if they have a mulfunctioning reactor or failing life support in addition to hyperdrive problem? And do you realy think they would wait months for Falcon to arrive to Bespin when they know exactly where it is? We are talking Vader here, despite his deep and wise sounding voice, the guy has a patience of a 3 year old.
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Post by Evil on Jan 8, 2020 23:32:23 GMT
I don't know how much of my posts you read when I was discussing this issue with Cypher and everyone else but I believe that belief in your abilities is only one part of using the Force. Mental discipling and concentration are also big parts of it. And as far as where I get this idea from...well its supported and my intepretation of the Luke's training scene with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Also to a lesser extent Luke escaping the Wampa from that movie. But that whole scene makes it very clear, to me, that in order to use the Force you have to believe its possible, the clincher is when Luke was like "I don't believe it" and Yoda's response was "And that is why you fail." You may have a different intrepation of the events then I do, and it seems like you probably do...BUT I don't get this notion about Belief from Episodes 7-9, but through Episodes 4-6...and very little in the rest of the Saga contradicts that message. I only skim read this thread TBH, and occasionally reply if something relevant happens to be on the page I ended up paying some attention to. As for the matter of belief, I'm of the opinion that its a very important early step. A foundation that has to be solid if you want to build something worthwhile. Without it you've failed before you begin, just as Luke did. But it's just a single step. Without all the following steps it means fairly little. I get the impression from skim reading that the new stuff skips steps 2 through 1000 and implies that belief is the only step. If so, that's a solid NOPE from me. That way lies the path of fanfics and unlikable power fantasy characters.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 8, 2020 23:56:17 GMT
My understanding was that Obi Won was only of average strength. The reason he could hold out so long against Anakin was because he trained him, and knew all his moves, strengths, and weaknesses better than anyone else. Well, he was a master on the Council so him being average might be overstating the matter. I think the biggest factors were: 1 - Knew Anakin’s moves better than anyone 2 - Anakin not being in his right mind 3 - Obi-Wan being a master of defensive fighting, he basically specializes in allowing his opponent’s to wear themselves out until they make mistakes, which is pretty much how their duel wentBasically this one. There are different lightsaber forms, and the one Obi-Wan chose to master was a purely defensive form. Same reason he could fight Grievous when a lot of other Jedi died.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 0:09:57 GMT
I don't know how much of my posts you read when I was discussing this issue with Cypher and everyone else but I believe that belief in your abilities is only one part of using the Force. Mental discipling and concentration are also big parts of it. And as far as where I get this idea from...well its supported and my intepretation of the Luke's training scene with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Also to a lesser extent Luke escaping the Wampa from that movie. But that whole scene makes it very clear, to me, that in order to use the Force you have to believe its possible, the clincher is when Luke was like "I don't believe it" and Yoda's response was "And that is why you fail." You may have a different intrepation of the events then I do, and it seems like you probably do...BUT I don't get this notion about Belief from Episodes 7-9, but through Episodes 4-6...and very little in the rest of the Saga contradicts that message. I only skim read this thread TBH, and occasionally reply if something relevant happens to be on the page I ended up paying some attention to. As for the matter of belief, I'm of the opinion that its a very important early step. A foundation that has to be solid if you want to build something worthwhile. Without it you've failed before you begin, just as Luke did. But it's just a single step. Without all the following steps it means fairly little. I get the impression from skim reading that the new stuff skips steps 2 through 1000 and implies that belief is the only step. If so, that's a solid NOPE from me. That way lies the path of fanfics and unlikable power fantasy characters. I agree with this but imo the new movies don't skip steps 2 through 1000...not with Rey at least.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 9, 2020 0:19:09 GMT
I only skim read this thread TBH, and occasionally reply if something relevant happens to be on the page I ended up paying some attention to. As for the matter of belief, I'm of the opinion that its a very important early step. A foundation that has to be solid if you want to build something worthwhile. Without it you've failed before you begin, just as Luke did. But it's just a single step. Without all the following steps it means fairly little. I get the impression from skim reading that the new stuff skips steps 2 through 1000 and implies that belief is the only step. If so, that's a solid NOPE from me. That way lies the path of fanfics and unlikable power fantasy characters. I agree with this but imo the new movies don't skip steps 2 through 1000...not with Rey at least. How many then? Any sane person can see she got a free pass to some degree
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Post by cypherj on Jan 9, 2020 0:20:00 GMT
That's only an issue if one assumes that the force works by just making wishes and believing. If one ignores such an idiotic concept and instead goes by the older idea of raw potential not meaning much without learning how to properly apply it then it makes perfect sense. Dooku is far older than Obi-Wan, and he's spent pretty much his entire life learning how to maximise his potential, especially when up against other force users. That's why he's one of very, very few makashi/form 2 users. Its an anti-lightsabre sightsabre style. Imagine watching an arm wrestling competition between 2 other people. One is a weight lifting champion, the other is a arm wrestling professional of mid tier level. I'd bet on the arm wrestler winning, despite the weight lifter having more muscle and more trophies. Looking at just the Lukas films, Obi-Wans performance VS those two is internally consistent. If its inconsistent with the Disney "films" then that's a Disney problem, not a Star Wars problem. As far as Disney Star Wars vs. Star Wars Star Wars...well as Hanako pointed out Disney IS Star Wars now. There is no difference between the two and no major contradictions. I don't know how much of my posts you read when I was discussing this issue with Cypher and everyone else but I believe that belief in your abilities is only one part of using the Force. Mental discipling and concentration are also big parts of it. And as far as where I get this idea from...well its supported and my intepretation of the Luke's training scene with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Also to a lesser extent Luke escaping the Wampa from that movie. But that whole scene makes it very clear, to me, that in order to use the Force you have to believe its possible, the clincher is when Luke was like "I don't believe it" and Yoda's response was "And that is why you fail." You may have a different intrepation of the events then I do, and it seems like you probably do...BUT I don't get this notion about Belief from Episodes 7-9, but through Episodes 4-6...and very little in the rest of the Saga contradicts that message. The main issue with this is that if this were the case you wouldn't need a school, teacher or anything else. Younglings on belief alone can be as powerful as masters. Just look at Luke's training on Dagobah. He started out just running, swinging on vines, doing flips. Then he moved balancing and moving a single rock and placing it on another. Then he moved to balancing, and lifting R2 and some crates at the same time. CLearly building blocks as he learned the force. Yoda didn't have him going out and lifting dozens of heavy objects from the get go. There's a reason you've never seen younglings, padawans, heck, even most Jedi Knights lifting huge objects, or doing extraordinary feats with the force. Because it's something they have to work up to. When Yoda is fighting Dooku, and Dooku keeps throwing large objects at Yoda, who pushes them away. Dooku says the battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the force. Which to me, clearly means that knowledge of the force is required to do the things that they were just doing. Yoda being a Grandmaster and Dooku being a Sith Lord, obviously their knowledge of the force is far greater then someone new to force powers. Qui-gon talks about how the road to becoming a Jedi is hard, lots of training and practice, and how even once you become one it's a hard life. Yoda when he's talking to Luke in his house says that a Jedi must have the deepest commitment. Luke broke his training the first time, got his ass kicked. Luke finished his training, finally beat Vader and became a Jedi. All of this points to learning the force and becoming a Jedi as being a long road, which Luke and Anakin walked over years. When you let someone be that strong in the force after a week, you really just invalidate everything you've built up becoming a Jedi to be through the years. No need for a long commitment, or lots of training. No need for a temple, or a Master/Padawan relationship. They were doing it wrong, just wasting their time all those years. Simply teach someone to believe in themselves and they can use the force any way they want, no training required.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 9, 2020 0:24:14 GMT
Traveling light years at sublight speeds is gonna take a while. That's not an implication, that's a fact. and him not knowing the time it will take a sublightspeed ship to cover the distance of a light-year or few to the next star system, beyond having Han state "It's a long way but i think we can make it". 2 days won't cover it. They got from Hoth system to Anoat system (where they drift away with garbage) on sublight engines in a couple of hours/days. There is no specific timeframe given during the Millennium Falcon chase sequences while no specific timeframe is given between the Falcon escaping Hoth's asteroid field, the time it took to travel the unknown number of lightyears they needed to reach Bespin after arriving in the system or the length of their stay and captivity on Bespin. Covering trillions of miles in 2 days or hours while moving at sublight speeds is highly impossible.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 9, 2020 0:32:50 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 1:16:54 GMT
Aww that smile right there is why I ship them its so cute and adorable and anyone who can make Rey smile like that must be doing something right. I agree with this but imo the new movies don't skip steps 2 through 1000...not with Rey at least. How many then? Any sane person can see she got a free pass to some degree lol. More then one less then a thousand. As far as Disney Star Wars vs. Star Wars Star Wars...well as Hanako pointed out Disney IS Star Wars now. There is no difference between the two and no major contradictions. I don't know how much of my posts you read when I was discussing this issue with Cypher and everyone else but I believe that belief in your abilities is only one part of using the Force. Mental discipling and concentration are also big parts of it. And as far as where I get this idea from...well its supported and my intepretation of the Luke's training scene with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Also to a lesser extent Luke escaping the Wampa from that movie. But that whole scene makes it very clear, to me, that in order to use the Force you have to believe its possible, the clincher is when Luke was like "I don't believe it" and Yoda's response was "And that is why you fail." You may have a different intrepation of the events then I do, and it seems like you probably do...BUT I don't get this notion about Belief from Episodes 7-9, but through Episodes 4-6...and very little in the rest of the Saga contradicts that message. The main issue with this is that if this were the case you wouldn't need a school, teacher or anything else. Younglings on belief alone can be as powerful as masters. Just look at Luke's training on Dagobah. He started out just running, swinging on vines, doing flips. Then he moved balancing and moving a single rock and placing it on another. Then he moved to balancing, and lifting R2 and some crates at the same time. CLearly building blocks as he learned the force. Yoda didn't have him going out and lifting dozens of heavy objects from the get go. There's a reason you've never seen younglings, padawans, heck, even most Jedi Knights lifting huge objects, or doing extraordinary feats with the force. Because it's something they have to work up to. When Yoda is fighting Dooku, and Dooku keeps throwing large objects at Yoda, who pushes them away. Dooku says the battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the force. Which to me, clearly means that knowledge of the force is required to do the things that they were just doing. Yoda being a Grandmaster and Dooku being a Sith Lord, obviously their knowledge of the force is far greater then someone new to force powers. Qui-gon talks about how the road to becoming a Jedi is hard, lots of training and practice, and how even once you become one it's a hard life. Yoda when he's talking to Luke in his house says that a Jedi must have the deepest commitment. Luke broke his training the first time, got his ass kicked. Luke finished his training, finally beat Vader and became a Jedi. All of this points to learning the force and becoming a Jedi as being a long road, which Luke and Anakin walked over years. When you let someone be that strong in the force after a week, you really just invalidate everything you've built up becoming a Jedi to be through the years. No need for a long commitment, or lots of training. No need for a temple, or a Master/Padawan relationship. They were doing it wrong, just wasting their time all those years. Simply teach someone to believe in themselves and they can use the force any way they want, no training required. Welll...to be frank my interpretation of the prequels was that the Jedi WERE doing a lot of things wrong. Including how they trained their padawans and Knights. Part of the reason why Anakin fell to the dark side is that Jedi dogma on the issue was counter productive and even poisonous to a certain degree. It isolated him from the rest of the Order till the only one he had left to look at was...Palpetine. The Jedi were A. extremly arrogant that their way was the only way that it was proper to train in the Force and B. extremly fearful of the darkside of the Force to the point they basically emotionally stunted their padawans and younglings...not to mention it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberatley staggered the training of the padawans in order to have them 'build up' to certain things so they could make sure they were of the 'proper mindset'. Now as far as Yoda versus Dooku is concerned...you've mentioned this before and I really didn't talk about it my bad...but to this point most of what I have been talking about is Jedi versus inanimate object. IE Rey just being able to lift a bunch of rocks without a will of their own is another task entirely. But when you pit one Force User against another that is when a lot of the other factors come into play like raw Force power, knowledge of the Force, training, and mental discipline. This is something that the movies make quite clear even when a properly trained and ready Kylo Ren is more then a match for Rey's skills in Episodes 8 and 9. And this also explains why Obi-Wan was defeated by Dooku so easily. With Luke 'building up' to larger objects...one of Yoda's lines was that he had to 'unlearn what he had learned'. It wasn't that Luke would've been unable to life those objects just that he had to get used to the idea that he could lift those objects. Yoda's first obstacle with Luke was that Luke believed that physical limitations transferred into Force limitations...when it does not.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 9, 2020 1:28:03 GMT
Aww that smile right there is why I ship them its so cute and adorable and anyone who can make Rey smile like that must be doing something right. How many then? Any sane person can see she got a free pass to some degree lol. More then one less then a thousand. The main issue with this is that if this were the case you wouldn't need a school, teacher or anything else. Younglings on belief alone can be as powerful as masters. Just look at Luke's training on Dagobah. He started out just running, swinging on vines, doing flips. Then he moved balancing and moving a single rock and placing it on another. Then he moved to balancing, and lifting R2 and some crates at the same time. CLearly building blocks as he learned the force. Yoda didn't have him going out and lifting dozens of heavy objects from the get go. There's a reason you've never seen younglings, padawans, heck, even most Jedi Knights lifting huge objects, or doing extraordinary feats with the force. Because it's something they have to work up to. When Yoda is fighting Dooku, and Dooku keeps throwing large objects at Yoda, who pushes them away. Dooku says the battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the force. Which to me, clearly means that knowledge of the force is required to do the things that they were just doing. Yoda being a Grandmaster and Dooku being a Sith Lord, obviously their knowledge of the force is far greater then someone new to force powers. Qui-gon talks about how the road to becoming a Jedi is hard, lots of training and practice, and how even once you become one it's a hard life. Yoda when he's talking to Luke in his house says that a Jedi must have the deepest commitment. Luke broke his training the first time, got his ass kicked. Luke finished his training, finally beat Vader and became a Jedi. All of this points to learning the force and becoming a Jedi as being a long road, which Luke and Anakin walked over years. When you let someone be that strong in the force after a week, you really just invalidate everything you've built up becoming a Jedi to be through the years. No need for a long commitment, or lots of training. No need for a temple, or a Master/Padawan relationship. They were doing it wrong, just wasting their time all those years. Simply teach someone to believe in themselves and they can use the force any way they want, no training required. Welll...to be frank my interpretation of the prequels was that the Jedi WERE doing a lot of things wrong. Including how they trained their padawans and Knights. Part of the reason why Anakin fell to the dark side is that Jedi dogma on the issue was counter productive and even poisonous to a certain degree. It isolated him from the rest of the Order till the only one he had left to look at was...Palpetine. The Jedi were A. extremly arrogant that their way was the only way that it was proper to train in the Force and B. extremly fearful of the darkside of the Force to the point they basically emotionally stunted their padawans and younglings...not to mention it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberatley staggered the training of the padawans in order to have them 'build up' to certain things so they could make sure they were of the 'proper mindset'. Now as far as Yoda versus Dooku is concerned...you've mentioned this before and I really didn't talk about it my bad...but to this point most of what I have been talking about is Jedi versus inanimate object. IE Rey just being able to lift a bunch of rocks without a will of their own is another task entirely. But when you pit one Force User against another that is when a lot of the other factors come into play like raw Force power, knowledge of the Force, training, and mental discipline. This is something that the movies make quite clear even when a properly trained and ready Kylo Ren is more then a match for Rey's skills in Episodes 8 and 9. And this also explains why Obi-Wan was defeated by Dooku so easily. With Luke 'building up' to larger objects...one of Yoda's lines was that he had to 'unlearn what he had learned'. It wasn't that Luke would've been unable to life those objects just that he had to get used to the idea that he could lift those objects. Yoda's first obstacle with Luke was that Luke believed that physical limitations transferred into Force limitations...when it does not. This isn't even true. After the fight in the Snoke's throne room Rey and Kylo both go after Anakin's lightsaber and it's stuck in the middle until it's torn apart. A properly trained and ready Kylo could not pull the lightsaber away from Rey. It was a stalemate. She's just stronger than she should be, there's no denying it. That's pretty much the only Kylo vs Rey moment in Episode 8. Edit: Also, as I've said before. If the things that happened with Rey in Episode 9 happened in Episodes 7 & 8, she would never have been called a Mary Sue to begin with. They just tried to correct things too late.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 1:49:13 GMT
Aww that smile right there is why I ship them its so cute and adorable and anyone who can make Rey smile like that must be doing something right. lol. More then one less then a thousand. Welll...to be frank my interpretation of the prequels was that the Jedi WERE doing a lot of things wrong. Including how they trained their padawans and Knights. Part of the reason why Anakin fell to the dark side is that Jedi dogma on the issue was counter productive and even poisonous to a certain degree. It isolated him from the rest of the Order till the only one he had left to look at was...Palpetine. The Jedi were A. extremly arrogant that their way was the only way that it was proper to train in the Force and B. extremly fearful of the darkside of the Force to the point they basically emotionally stunted their padawans and younglings...not to mention it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberatley staggered the training of the padawans in order to have them 'build up' to certain things so they could make sure they were of the 'proper mindset'. Now as far as Yoda versus Dooku is concerned...you've mentioned this before and I really didn't talk about it my bad...but to this point most of what I have been talking about is Jedi versus inanimate object. IE Rey just being able to lift a bunch of rocks without a will of their own is another task entirely. But when you pit one Force User against another that is when a lot of the other factors come into play like raw Force power, knowledge of the Force, training, and mental discipline. This is something that the movies make quite clear even when a properly trained and ready Kylo Ren is more then a match for Rey's skills in Episodes 8 and 9. And this also explains why Obi-Wan was defeated by Dooku so easily. With Luke 'building up' to larger objects...one of Yoda's lines was that he had to 'unlearn what he had learned'. It wasn't that Luke would've been unable to life those objects just that he had to get used to the idea that he could lift those objects. Yoda's first obstacle with Luke was that Luke believed that physical limitations transferred into Force limitations...when it does not. This isn't even true. After the fight in the Snoke's throne room Rey and Kylo both go after Anakin's lightsaber and it's stuck in the middle until it's torn apart. A properly trained and ready Kylo could not pull the lightsaber away from Rey. It was a stalemate. She's just stronger than she should be, there's no denying it. That's pretty much the only Kylo vs Rey moment in Episode 8. Edit: Also, as I've said before. If the things that happened with Rey in Episode 9 happened in Episodes 7 & 8, she would never have been called a Mary Sue to begin with. They just tried to correct things too late. There is a huge difference between Kylo's emotional and physical state in Episode 7 then Episode 8. Because that scene pretty much is exactly what I am talking about.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 9, 2020 4:34:41 GMT
I think Rise of Skywalker might have forgotten that Count Dooku was shooting lightning out of his fingers in Attack of the Clones. That would have been a hilarious, and much less gross, lineage for Rey to discover having TBH.
The real tragedy of Revenge of the Sith is no one was there to tell Anakin, "Come to your senses! What do you think Padme would do were she in your position?" For fun, the Attack of the Clones Kenobi, Anakin, and Dooku fight...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 5:17:38 GMT
On the subject of random musings here's an interesting thought experiment.
I was almost thinking she was going to say 'Solo' at the end of Rise of Skywalker...and other then the obvious name of the movie setting it up....wouldn't that make sense? She had just as much (maybe even more) of a connection with Han then Luke and she was just smooching on Ben...whose surname is Solo and not Skywalker so wouldn't that be a good way to honor him?
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Post by cypherj on Jan 9, 2020 9:32:09 GMT
This isn't even true. After the fight in the Snoke's throne room Rey and Kylo both go after Anakin's lightsaber and it's stuck in the middle until it's torn apart. A properly trained and ready Kylo could not pull the lightsaber away from Rey. It was a stalemate. She's just stronger than she should be, there's no denying it. That's pretty much the only Kylo vs Rey moment in Episode 8. Edit: Also, as I've said before. If the things that happened with Rey in Episode 9 happened in Episodes 7 & 8, she would never have been called a Mary Sue to begin with. They just tried to correct things too late. There is a huge difference between Kylo's emotional and physical state in Episode 7 then Episode 8. Because that scene pretty much is exactly what I am talking about. How is this scene what you're talking about? Kylo couldn't take the lightsaber from Rey in Episode 7, and the excuse was he was injured or mentally incapacitated, not that she's strong in the force. In Episode 8, he's not either one of these things, and he still can't take the lightsaber from Rey. How does this support anything you're saying? It supports what other people are saying that she's unrealistically strong in the force.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 9, 2020 9:44:11 GMT
Welll...to be frank my interpretation of the prequels was that the Jedi WERE doing a lot of things wrong. Including how they trained their padawans and Knights. Part of the reason why Anakin fell to the dark side is that Jedi dogma on the issue was counter productive and even poisonous to a certain degree. It isolated him from the rest of the Order till the only one he had left to look at was...Palpetine. Can't believe I missed this. This isn't even really true. Anakin fell to the dark side for one reason, and it had nothing to do with isolation. He broke the rules of the temple plain and simple. He didn't leave his past behind. He couldn't let go of his mother, went back to get her, found he dead and murdered a bunch of sand people as a result. He was told multiple times to leave his past behind, and to train himself to let go of all he feared to lose. Then instead of learning from his previous mistakes, he develops an attachment to someone. He falls in love with someone he was supposed to be protecting, gets married in secret and gets her pregnant. He starts seeing visions of her dying. The Jedi didn't brush him off. He went and talked about Yoda about it, but he lied and said and talked about it in generalities instead of living up to what he was doing and admitting to the relationship. Padme suggested they go talk to Obi-Wan about it, he said no. Even when he was a padawan, he was saying Obi-wan was jealous of him because he wanted him to learn instead of letting him rush through the ranks. Then this relationship was used by Palpatine, when he told Anakin that he could offer a way to save her. Anakin chose the Jedi, and turned Palpatine in. He just saved Palpatine because he thought he was the only one that could save Padme. In short, if Anakin had followed the rules of the temple and you remove Padme from the equation he never goes dark. So if anything, this says that they were doing things mostly the right way at the time.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 10:52:30 GMT
Welll...to be frank my interpretation of the prequels was that the Jedi WERE doing a lot of things wrong. Including how they trained their padawans and Knights. Part of the reason why Anakin fell to the dark side is that Jedi dogma on the issue was counter productive and even poisonous to a certain degree. It isolated him from the rest of the Order till the only one he had left to look at was...Palpetine. Can't believe I missed this. This isn't even really true. Anakin fell to the dark side for one reason, and it had nothing to do with isolation. He broke the rules of the temple plain and simple. He didn't leave his past behind. He couldn't let go of his mother, went back to get her, found he dead and murdered a bunch of sand people as a result. He was told multiple times to leave his past behind, and to train himself to let go of all he feared to lose. Then instead of learning from his previous mistakes, he develops an attachment to someone. He falls in love with someone he was supposed to be protecting, gets married in secret and gets her pregnant. He starts seeing visions of her dying. The Jedi didn't brush him off. He went and talked about Yoda about it, but he lied and said and talked about it in generalities instead of living up to what he was doing and admitting to the relationship. Padme suggested they go talk to Obi-Wan about it, he said no. Even when he was a padawan, he was saying Obi-wan was jealous of him because he wanted him to learn instead of letting him rush through the ranks. Then this relationship was used by Palpatine, when he told Anakin that he could offer a way to save her. Anakin chose the Jedi, and turned Palpatine in. He just saved Palpatine because he thought he was the only one that could save Padme. In short, if Anakin had followed the rules of the temple and you remove Padme from the equation he never goes dark. So if anything, this says that they were doing things mostly the right way at the time. Sure if Anakin hadn't fallen in love he wouldn't have fallen... But then if the Jedi didn't have such dogmatic views on basic human emotions he might've felt more comfortable going to them. Jedi fear and Jedi arrogance contributed to their own undoing. That's the tragedy.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2020 10:59:55 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 9, 2020 13:42:24 GMT
Can't believe I missed this. This isn't even really true. Anakin fell to the dark side for one reason, and it had nothing to do with isolation. He broke the rules of the temple plain and simple. He didn't leave his past behind. He couldn't let go of his mother, went back to get her, found he dead and murdered a bunch of sand people as a result. He was told multiple times to leave his past behind, and to train himself to let go of all he feared to lose. Then instead of learning from his previous mistakes, he develops an attachment to someone. He falls in love with someone he was supposed to be protecting, gets married in secret and gets her pregnant. He starts seeing visions of her dying. The Jedi didn't brush him off. He went and talked about Yoda about it, but he lied and said and talked about it in generalities instead of living up to what he was doing and admitting to the relationship. Padme suggested they go talk to Obi-Wan about it, he said no. Even when he was a padawan, he was saying Obi-wan was jealous of him because he wanted him to learn instead of letting him rush through the ranks. Then this relationship was used by Palpatine, when he told Anakin that he could offer a way to save her. Anakin chose the Jedi, and turned Palpatine in. He just saved Palpatine because he thought he was the only one that could save Padme. In short, if Anakin had followed the rules of the temple and you remove Padme from the equation he never goes dark. So if anything, this says that they were doing things mostly the right way at the time. Sure if Anakin hadn't fallen in love he wouldn't have fallen... But then if the Jedi didn't have such dogmatic views on basic human emotions he might've felt more comfortable going to them. Jedi fear and Jedi arrogance contributed to their own undoing. That's the tragedy. The dogmatic view of the Jedi meant Anakin would have been expelled from the Order... so what? He could have done whatever with his training and been with Padme, maybe even continued to try to save her. Instead the choice Anakin took was to destroy the Order, same result for him as expulsion, just with a lotta dead Jedi. Palpatine's manipulations, including how he manipulated Anakin's arrogance, resentment, and paranoia, is what lead to the destruction of the Jedi. Main fault of the Jedi is the lack of imagination on the form that an attack on the Order would take, and the main attack was the Clone War that they were forced to fight. P.S. Crap! Almost forgot - the Revenge of the Sith novel made a point of saying that Mace Windu also failed, because he tried to kill Senator Palpatine instead of arresting him due of Mace's attachment to the Republic and fear of losing it to the Sith Lord through popularity and political manipulations. DAMN, I love that novel!
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Post by Iakus on Jan 9, 2020 14:07:34 GMT
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Post by cypherj on Jan 9, 2020 14:58:04 GMT
Can't believe I missed this. This isn't even really true. Anakin fell to the dark side for one reason, and it had nothing to do with isolation. He broke the rules of the temple plain and simple. He didn't leave his past behind. He couldn't let go of his mother, went back to get her, found he dead and murdered a bunch of sand people as a result. He was told multiple times to leave his past behind, and to train himself to let go of all he feared to lose. Then instead of learning from his previous mistakes, he develops an attachment to someone. He falls in love with someone he was supposed to be protecting, gets married in secret and gets her pregnant. He starts seeing visions of her dying. The Jedi didn't brush him off. He went and talked about Yoda about it, but he lied and said and talked about it in generalities instead of living up to what he was doing and admitting to the relationship. Padme suggested they go talk to Obi-Wan about it, he said no. Even when he was a padawan, he was saying Obi-wan was jealous of him because he wanted him to learn instead of letting him rush through the ranks. Then this relationship was used by Palpatine, when he told Anakin that he could offer a way to save her. Anakin chose the Jedi, and turned Palpatine in. He just saved Palpatine because he thought he was the only one that could save Padme. In short, if Anakin had followed the rules of the temple and you remove Padme from the equation he never goes dark. So if anything, this says that they were doing things mostly the right way at the time. Sure if Anakin hadn't fallen in love he wouldn't have fallen... But then if the Jedi didn't have such dogmatic views on basic human emotions he might've felt more comfortable going to them. Jedi fear and Jedi arrogance contributed to their own undoing. That's the tragedy.
We don't know what would have happened. But the reason he fell was due to attachments, and not following the rules. If he follows the rules everyone else was none of it happens.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 9, 2020 15:24:15 GMT
Sure if Anakin hadn't fallen in love he wouldn't have fallen... But then if the Jedi didn't have such dogmatic views on basic human emotions he might've felt more comfortable going to them. Jedi fear and Jedi arrogance contributed to their own undoing. That's the tragedy.
We don't know what would have happened. But the reason he fell was due to attachments, and not following the rules. If he follows the rules everyone else was none of it happens.
Agreed, Kenobi had a crush once. However he followed the rules & made a tough decision which ended up being better for everyone involved (Because he's the quintessential Jedi)
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