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Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 22:06:18 GMT
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 9, 2020 22:28:38 GMT
Couldn't be any worse than the sequel trilogy if you ask me. At least it would be a passion project. Of course it can. Take the Room for example - passion project, notoriously bad movie. That is one of the greatest pieces of modern cinema ever produced you heretic.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 9, 2020 22:37:26 GMT
Of course it can. Take the Room for example - passion project, notoriously bad movie. That is one of the greatest pieces of modern cinema ever produced you heretic. Uh-huh. Should I judge your movie taste by this standard?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 4:51:27 GMT
Yes I recognize what you are saying as quite accurate. However it was still a stupid hail marry that was, once again, pretty lucky it worked. Though since Luke may not have been expecting to survive the attempt in the first place which kind of makes it justifiable. Your argument seems to hinge on Rey 'winning' too easily. But if we follow it to its natural conclusion then its almost hard to imagine any character arc satisfying you since most heroes end up winning. And quite the contrary Rey may win or survive most of her struggles but its often not without extreme cost to herself or others...let alone the fact that she downright looses in TLJ. So to your specifc TROS related issues. Rey was still going through her issues, that was before she had a chance to get over herself and she only 'won' against Kylo because Leia sacrificed herself...saving them both from Palpy's first attempt. Note this was specifically BEFORE she faced Palpatine and passed her final test. She only did that because she was terrified herself and apparently was reading the reviews for the Last Jedi and thought that the lesson that Luke taught her was that you should isolate herself because she was doomed into a cycle of failure. But then Luke showed up and talked her out of it...reminding her of the actual lesson from the Last Jedi that your blood, heritage, power, or ideology does not doom you...anyone is capable to do better. He also just happened to have another lightsaber handy...and where she got the ship was set up all the way back in TLJ. You are right there was limited planning or coordination on her end at that point...but she still had enough forethought to not have to go it alone. And she wins because she makes a series of choices that all leads up to and is conducive to winning. Because her entire character arc was preparing her for this moment that final test...and she could've just as easily have failed it...that is the importance of the final temptation of the lie. The events on this screen makes it clear. Palpatine offers to give her everything she once desired, a place in the story, purpose to her life, to protect her new growing family even...and she almost accepts. Almost gives in because she is despairing...but she senses Kylo and his redemption and once more is reminded that she does not have to give in, that there is still hope for her, and with that she hands over the lightsaber to Kylo (in my interpretation of events being quite prepared to sacrifice her life) and hence throws away the hold her lies and flaws have over her...which is then further exemplified by the end of the moving, choosing the name Skywalker, and building her own Lightsaber. ...Gosh I love these movies. Edit: Also mega kudos to Daisy Ridley and her acting. Just watching TFA recently her performance may be a little stiff but by TROS its actually pretty...great all things considered. That JJ could trust her to actually emote and not have to yell everything out for the audience is a testement to how she has grown over the course of this series. Sure, insofar as any risky but necessary plan ever is a "stupid hail mary". Most characters end up winning specifically because of lessons they learned along the way and by making informed decisions that demonstrate their courage or wisdom or acceptance of something they've struggled with and aspired to, because that's what makes them inspiring. Rey wins every struggle she engages in. Everything she does in the series showcases her strength and goodness. Even when Snoke overpowered her in TLJ her influence over Kylo causes him to kill the man, after which she stands up and they fight off the presumably most skilled warriors in the First Order during which she beats the living hell out of them and saves Kylo's life. She ends up looking like the biggest badass in the galaxy even when she "loses". When her success comes at "extreme cost to others or herself" it's funnily enough never a consequence of any decision she personally makes, like it's supposed to be for protagonists to learn their lessons, so attributing it to her is false. It'd be more accurate to say that Rey goes from triumph to triumph and that unfortunate things occasionally happen adjacently to her that she then has to react to or use to her advantage. And the movies don't give her time to reflect on or work through those unfortunate things, so they don't even appear to touch her. I'll have to take your word for that being what Luke tells her on the island. But your understanding of the final battle is completely different from mine. I never worried a second about her taking Palpatine's deal because at no point whatsoever during the trilogy had she made any choice that that even resembled moral weakness. Or weakness of any kind really, other than a lack of common sense. Her going unresisting to the "darkness" or whatever during Luke's lesson doesn't even count, because she's given no reason in the world not to and there's nothing dark about it. We're only made to think it's questionable because he whines about it. I honestly wished that she would accept, because giving herself over to evil in despair would finally make her an interesting character with a recognizably human arc. But I knew she wouldn't, because the movies had never dared to frame her as being fallible and weren't about to start at the very end of the trilogy. So of course, even if she was going to, which I don't buy, she was fortunately snapped out of it by another's intervention before anyone could get the idea that she was actually a little bit evil. Then she passed her lightsaber to "Ben" - which I thought was very well-setup, a surprising and logical use of something they'd been featuring in both RoS and TLJ. Except that "Ben" shouldn't even be in trouble. He arrived to fight his "knights" with both superior force powers and a blaster in hand, from which they had no defense. When we next saw him a moment later he was getting his ass kicked with the shitty kind of medieval weapons, and that blaster was nowhere to be seen. The fight was clearly written and then overwritten to give him receiving her lightsaber more oomph than it actually deserved. I don't interpret her as doing it with the intention of sacrificing her life either. We know that she has two lightsabers at that point, and she passes one to him. Which makes sense, but doesn't leave her significantly disadvantaged since she has no reason to be more skilled with two than one and lightsabers aren't even useful to her at the moment. Then "Ben" is with her, and a lot of vague Force shit that the audience has very little chance of understanding occurs, and contrivances happen with "Ben" and holes in the floor, and Rey is granted the power to kill Palpatine in a very confusing moment. Somehow, while her striking him down earlier with her lightsaber would have resulted in him possessing her, her frying him with his own lightning at the end does not. For no given reason. There's no consistency. And nothing really hinges on her decisions made or lessons learned either now or during the trilogy. She might have rejected his deal because of vague and underdeveloped character reasons, but she wins because she was born with power she didn't earn, and because others have been or are granting her power freely without earning it. The signal she's sending to the audience is "Just believe in yourself, take and accept everything you possibly can along the way, except when someone obviously evil tries to sell you something then just say no, and you'll be golden." And the way the story is written, what we should then expect is for the Emperor to rise in her body immediately after, because she ultimately followed his plan of her killing him exactly. But he doesn't, because this is Rey after all, so the plot just makes another quiet exception for her. Urgh. All the flash and great visuals and explosions kinda sorta made up for most of the bullshit upon viewing the movie, but that's about it. Don't remember Daisy's acting making a huge impression on me, even though I think she does well in both TFA and TLJ. And he lost the hand by charging recklessly into battle with Dooku rather than working with Obi-Wan, forcing them to face him one at a time. That's how I understand it too. Since we're comparing Luke and Rey, "Free us, or die." Not the most Jedi declaration.
This is one thing that the new trilogy was missing for Rey, a setup mission for the hero to establish who they have become (leadership, competence, confidence, etc) at the start of the third film. The prequels had the mission to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, the original had the mission to rescue Han, sequel trilogies not so much. Eh. In the context it's an offer of mercy and an objective appraisal of how the situation is going to turn out due to Jabba's own decisions, not a threat. Absolutely a Jedi declaration. The RoS has a setup mission. Poe and Finn retrieving data from an informant, and having to escape a Tie squadron. Rey just isn't on it, because she's too busy pretending she suddenly isn't the best in the galaxy at everything anymore, and needs training. Which Poe actually complains about during and after, implying either that if she had been there then they never would have gotten into trouble in the first place, or that she would have been able to fix the situation in some way they couldn't because she's so much more awesome than they are. At flying. Does well enough to set up how the movie wants us to think about her. It is interesting that you use the word 'presumably' there because that is presumption of the highest order. Sure it makes some degree of sense from a certain point of view that the Praetorian Guard would be well trained...except there is nothing in the movie pointing at that as being factual. And given Snoke's obvious power in the darkside...which he demonstrated earlier by instantly lightning Kylo Ren away from him before they even could reach for their weapons it seems like they are just window dressing. Which Rey didn't...what was the term you used?...beat the ever living hell out of them and save Kylo's life. 1. They helped each other throughout and 2. she was struggling during the entire fight while Kylo was bench pressing three of them at once. Also, she had no real influence over Kylo at that point in time...sure he might have had a little sympathetic feelings for Rey at the time...but that wasn't enough to turn him from the Darkside or get him to abandon his plans. He killed Snoke more because he was sick and tired of being manipulated and used by yet another powerful Force wielder. His light side master betrayed him...his dark side master betrayed him. Kind of a pretty good explanation for the 'let the past die' speech he gives Rey. And yes he wanted Rey to join him there but he had no interest of joining her on the light...right then. So to recap: What was Rey's objectives going to the Supremacy? To turn Kylo from the dark side and stop the First Order. She failed in both of those objectives. She only escaped, by the skin of her teeth because Kylo was sick of being used and the Holdo manuever. And while she might not have had a lot of time to reflect on this its still obviously bothering her by the time we get to TROS given her repeated evidence to fearing herself...and then her going to exile herself on Ach To. Also remember, most of Luke's 'reflecting' happened off screen. You are really trying to have your cake and eat it to here, you keep on claiming that she is the next great evil waiting to happen and several people have referenced on here, her 'beating up and robbing Luke but then you claim she has had no moral weaknesses. THAT is a moral weakness. Her quick temper and rashness...however justified she might've felt and how much of a cool scene it might've been...or led to later...was entirely unjustified and maybe a little off putting. She attacked an unarmed senior citizen in the back of the head and the only reason he even held his own was that he tapped into the Force...for the first time in about a decade. It was maybe a little disturbing but then it came out of natural character progression. Hardly a flawless character that they were shoe horning these issues in to make her more interesting, they were always there. And this makes her a compelling fleshed out three dimensional character, one of the most memorable in recent memory and certainly capable of holding her own next to Luke, Palpatine, Vader, or Obi-Wan. As far as the rest of the battle is concerned it all made perfect sense to me: I will acnowledge that the point of Ben not being able to beat the Knights of Ren was perhaps a little bit...contrived? But look at the look on her face, the mixture of cockiness and also fear she had there was a sight to behold. She was fully expecting Palpatine to zap her or the Sith guards to kill her before she could even reach for Leia's lightsaber...the fact they were slow on the uptake was their fault (though admittedly this my personal interpretation). Her getting the power made perfect sense. As soon as the words "Be with me" left her mouth I had a pretty good idea what was going to happen...since it was set up earlier in the movie. I did not anticipate just how bad ass it was going be and maybe I thought I was going to see force ghosts, but it makes perfect sense. She didn't get possessed because Palpatine clearly needed her to strike out at him out of her negative emotions...fear, need for revenge....so he could possess her. Its the whole reason he was constantly talking up nuking her friends and also the death of her parents and also why she says 'you want me to hate you I won't.' The actions at the end were purely defensive and without a hint of negative emotion, explaining why she she didn't get possessed....what the end fight of the Harry Potter franchise should've been but that is another ball of unrelated wax. Now I know I have discussed why I find it logical and consistent with her character and how she could've easily given into that choice at great length...but people born with tremendous power is kind of a Star Wars staple. Its why the Jedi insist and raising young children (well one of the reasons) and why bloodlines are so important in the end. Anakin and Luke were born with tremendous force potential even before Rey came along and you can even throw in the likes of Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda. They didn't 'earn' their power either. They had to master it through training and discpline...just like Rey did. I think the signal she is sending...and the larger Star Wars mythos now at this point...is you aren't doomed to a certain path...nor are you saved to a certain path. This might be the ost important lesson of the nine movies, everyone's corriptuable, everyone's redeamable, it doesen't matter if you are the one Chosen to bring Balance to the Force or the grandaughter of the big bad...you can forge your own path. For some that might mean rejecting their lineage and forming their own identity with the blessing of the thousands of generations which came before, becoming an adopter daughter of the light, and for others that might mean learning its never too late to come home again and that you can always embrace your lineage...if that means doing the right thing. Which is the key here. Goodness and evil isn't something you are pigenheld into its something you can choose for yourself. And I can't think of a more wonderful and diverse message and puts Star Wars now back on the pedestal with Babylon 5 and Dragon Age for truly great storytelling with great characters.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 6:23:36 GMT
You know what's weird? Leia is an Organa, Ben is a Solo, Luke is the only good Skywalker cuz we all know what happened to Anakin.
Nobody, not even the RoS movie, remembers very nice lady Shmi.
What's this "Skywalker legacy" thing Rey is adopting? There's, like one, Luke, and he disappeared a decade prior.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 6:36:43 GMT
You know what's weird? Leia is an Organa, Ben is a Solo, Luke is the only good Skywalker cuz we all know what happened to Anakin. Nobody, not even the RoS movie, remembers very nice lady Shmi. What's this "Skywalker legacy" thing Rey is adopting? There's, like one, Luke, and he disappeared a decade prior. Well when you get down to it the Last Jedi dealt with the 'legend' of Luke Skywalker, Luke at his ideal form. They took it and broke it down and then rebuilt it again. Luke's story was one where he became dissilusioned, by everything. Himself, his own power, his legend, and the Jedi...seeing them as corrupt and evil and destructive and needing to go away. But at the end he chose to become the legend again and give the Galaxy a big good thing to look up to and emulate. The 'legend' of Luke Skywalker was not an entirely accurate image of the man Luke Skywalker ultimatley was...just like in the EU the legend that Ganner formed wasn't even close to accurate either...but in the end no matter what he was he became a symbol for everything good and just in the universe again. And that is his legacy. Peace, Justice, Compassion, tolerance (the good kind)....that is what the name 'Skywalker' will always mean because that is how it will always be remembered and how Rey will hopefully continue on that legacy.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 10, 2020 6:42:05 GMT
It is interesting that you use the word 'presumably' there because that is presumption of the highest order. Sure it makes some degree of sense from a certain point of view that the Praetorian Guard would be well trained...except there is nothing in the movie pointing at that as being factual. And given Snoke's obvious power in the darkside...which he demonstrated earlier by instantly lightning Kylo Ren away from him before they even could reach for their weapons it seems like they are just window dressing. Which Rey didn't...what was the term you used?...beat the ever living hell out of them and save Kylo's life. 1. They helped each other throughout and 2. she was struggling during the entire fight while Kylo was bench pressing three of them at once. Also, she had no real influence over Kylo at that point in time...sure he might have had a little sympathetic feelings for Rey at the time...but that wasn't enough to turn him from the Darkside or get him to abandon his plans. He killed Snoke more because he was sick and tired of being manipulated and used by yet another powerful Force wielder. His light side master betrayed him...his dark side master betrayed him. Kind of a pretty good explanation for the 'let the past die' speech he gives Rey. And yes he wanted Rey to join him there but he had no interest of joining her on the light...right then. So to recap: What was Rey's objectives going to the Supremacy? To turn Kylo from the dark side and stop the First Order. She failed in both of those objectives. She only escaped, by the skin of her teeth because Kylo was sick of being used and the Holdo manuever. And while she might not have had a lot of time to reflect on this its still obviously bothering her by the time we get to TROS given her repeated evidence to fearing herself...and then her going to exile herself on Ach To. Also remember, most of Luke's 'reflecting' happened off screen. You are really trying to have your cake and eat it to here, you keep on claiming that she is the next great evil waiting to happen and several people have referenced on here, her 'beating up and robbing Luke but then you claim she has had no moral weaknesses. THAT is a moral weakness. Her quick temper and rashness...however justified she might've felt and how much of a cool scene it might've been...or led to later...was entirely unjustified and maybe a little off putting. She attacked an unarmed senior citizen in the back of the head and the only reason he even held his own was that he tapped into the Force...for the first time in about a decade. It was maybe a little disturbing but then it came out of natural character progression. Hardly a flawless character that they were shoe horning these issues in to make her more interesting, they were always there. And this makes her a compelling fleshed out three dimensional character, one of the most memorable in recent memory and certainly capable of holding her own next to Luke, Palpatine, Vader, or Obi-Wan. As far as the rest of the battle is concerned it all made perfect sense to me: I will acnowledge that the point of Ben not being able to beat the Knights of Ren was perhaps a little bit...contrived? But look at the look on her face, the mixture of cockiness and also fear she had there was a sight to behold. She was fully expecting Palpatine to zap her or the Sith guards to kill her before she could even reach for Leia's lightsaber...the fact they were slow on the uptake was their fault (though admittedly this my personal interpretation). Her getting the power made perfect sense. As soon as the words "Be with me" left her mouth I had a pretty good idea what was going to happen...since it was set up earlier in the movie. I did not anticipate just how bad ass it was going be and maybe I thought I was going to see force ghosts, but it makes perfect sense. She didn't get possessed because Palpatine clearly needed her to strike out at him out of her negative emotions...fear, need for revenge....so he could possess her. Its the whole reason he was constantly talking up nuking her friends and also the death of her parents and also why she says 'you want me to hate you I won't.' The actions at the end were purely defensive and without a hint of negative emotion, explaining why she she didn't get possessed....what the end fight of the Harry Potter franchise should've been but that is another ball of unrelated wax. Now I know I have discussed why I find it logical and consistent with her character and how she could've easily given into that choice at great length...but people born with tremendous power is kind of a Star Wars staple. Its why the Jedi insist and raising young children (well one of the reasons) and why bloodlines are so important in the end. Anakin and Luke were born with tremendous force potential even before Rey came along and you can even throw in the likes of Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda. They didn't 'earn' their power either. They had to master it through training and discpline...just like Rey did. I think the signal she is sending...and the larger Star Wars mythos now at this point...is you aren't doomed to a certain path...nor are you saved to a certain path. This might be the ost important lesson of the nine movies, everyone's corriptuable, everyone's redeamable, it doesen't matter if you are the one Chosen to bring Balance to the Force or the grandaughter of the big bad...you can forge your own path. For some that might mean rejecting their lineage and forming their own identity with the blessing of the thousands of generations which came before, becoming an adopter daughter of the light, and for others that might mean learning its never too late to come home again and that you can always embrace your lineage...if that means doing the right thing. Which is the key here. Goodness and evil isn't something you are pigenheld into its something you can choose for yourself. And I can't think of a more wonderful and diverse message and puts Star Wars now back on the pedestal with Babylon 5 and Dragon Age for truly great storytelling with great characters. Uh... I wrote "presumably" because it's not something we're specifically told, but don't be silly. Palpatine's personal bodyguards were the biggest badasses of the Imperial Army, and he was stronger than Snoke. "Snoke is the first evil overlord in the universe to want shitty bodyguards - and that's what you're supposed to assume until otherwise stated" is a ridiculous defense for a ridiculous scene. And watch it again. Rey kicks their asses while Kylo almost gets killed. And I've already addressed the "not preventing Kylo from being evil is a failure on her part" silliness. The good guys benefited insanely from that debacle, and again, it cost them nothing. And again, she succeeds in the next movie anyway. And again again, she never brings it up again. Remember Luke lying on his bed after Bespin, connecting with Vader through the force and recoiling from it in confusion and wondering why Ben never told him? And him carefully opening up and broaching the subject with Leia in the next movie, telling her about his feelings and how they change things? That's how you establish something affecting your main character. You don't just leave it to people on the internet to try to infer and extrapolate from completely unrelated events in defense of your rushed mess of a trilogy. And no, you're missing the point. I can see that Rey is a perfect and infallible being in Disney's hands, and that they'd never dare to do something so radical as to make her a villain after spending all this time trying to sell her as a golden calf. I just also think that without their plot protection, in a hypothetical second sequel trilogy written by someone more grounded in reality, the kind of person she is and the mindset she has lend themselves really well to "...and then she gradually turned into an insane totalitarian perfectionist and started conquering the galaxy". Certainly more than "and then she turned out to be great at child-rearing, teaching, school administration and political advisement as well." Her getting the power made no sense to me. We haven't seen or heard her explore what the Jedi believed or what their purpose was for even a moment. Why she would expect any of them, let alone all of them, to back her up and bless her carrying on the tradition is beyond me. If anything, them intervening has more to do with Palpatine being close to winning than it has to do with her being the least bit worthy of it. And nope, you have no reason whatsoever to think that Palpatine could only use the body of someone who struck him down in anger. If they wanted people to draw that conclusion then it should have been made clear afterwards. My own theories have ranged from him not being able to possess someone who was already presently containing "all the Jedi" to that him losing patience and sucking the energy out of her and Kylo was what disqualified them from the process. But nothing is made clear, and the first thing that came up on the way out of the theater in my family was "But... wasn't he going to possess them when he died?" And excuse me."They didn't 'earn' their power either. They had to master it through training and discpline...just like Rey did."? I'd very much like to hear you justify this statement, considering that none of them performed Force abilities comparable to her and all but Luke had decades of training and experience under the supervision of qualified teachers on her, not to mention immense investment and sacrifice for the good of the galaxy. And as I pointed out one post ago, Luke didn't win because of his power, he won because of his decisions and his earned understanding and humility. And Anakin - who mostly did win because of power he hadn't earned even though he sure as hell earned it more than Rey has- has a character arc that's meant to be a warning. "Everyone's corruptible - and potentially redeemable" was already the message of the original trilogy 30 years ago. And if anything the sequels go against that theme. Rey never becomes the least bit corrupt or makes dodgy decisions on any level. Her message is closer to "Some people are special and incorruptible and will always ultimately do the right thing - and everyone who isn't a bad guy should instantly follow and like them. And bad guys can occasionally become good guys because they're insane and who knows what they'll do?" I do like the dual themes of "adopted family" and "the prodigal son" in Rey and Kylo, now that you point it out. I hadn't caught that, and you're right that both being present could have been very powerful. If only they had been executed better.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 7:00:41 GMT
You know what's weird? Leia is an Organa, Ben is a Solo, Luke is the only good Skywalker cuz we all know what happened to Anakin. Nobody, not even the RoS movie, remembers very nice lady Shmi. What's this "Skywalker legacy" thing Rey is adopting? There's, like one, Luke, and he disappeared a decade prior. Well when you get down to it the Last Jedi dealt with the 'legend' of Luke Skywalker, Luke at his ideal form. They took it and broke it down and then rebuilt it again. Luke's story was one where he became dissilusioned, by everything. Himself, his own power, his legend, and the Jedi...seeing them as corrupt and evil and destructive and needing to go away. But at the end he chose to become the legend again and give the Galaxy a big good thing to look up to and emulate. The 'legend' of Luke Skywalker was not an entirely accurate image of the man Luke Skywalker ultimatley was...just like in the EU the legend that Ganner formed wasn't even close to accurate either...but in the end no matter what he was he became a symbol for everything good and just in the universe again. And that is his legacy. Peace, Justice, Compassion, tolerance (the good kind)....that is what the name 'Skywalker' will always mean because that is how it will always be remembered and how Rey will hopefully continue on that legacy. Well, that's sort of my point, it's a legend of one guy. It's not like there's a dynasty of Skywalkers that she would be following in the footsteps of, carrying on the name. The real legacy is of the Jedi.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 7:15:57 GMT
It is interesting that you use the word 'presumably' there because that is presumption of the highest order. Sure it makes some degree of sense from a certain point of view that the Praetorian Guard would be well trained...except there is nothing in the movie pointing at that as being factual. And given Snoke's obvious power in the darkside...which he demonstrated earlier by instantly lightning Kylo Ren away from him before they even could reach for their weapons it seems like they are just window dressing. Which Rey didn't...what was the term you used?...beat the ever living hell out of them and save Kylo's life. 1. They helped each other throughout and 2. she was struggling during the entire fight while Kylo was bench pressing three of them at once. Also, she had no real influence over Kylo at that point in time...sure he might have had a little sympathetic feelings for Rey at the time...but that wasn't enough to turn him from the Darkside or get him to abandon his plans. He killed Snoke more because he was sick and tired of being manipulated and used by yet another powerful Force wielder. His light side master betrayed him...his dark side master betrayed him. Kind of a pretty good explanation for the 'let the past die' speech he gives Rey. And yes he wanted Rey to join him there but he had no interest of joining her on the light...right then. So to recap: What was Rey's objectives going to the Supremacy? To turn Kylo from the dark side and stop the First Order. She failed in both of those objectives. She only escaped, by the skin of her teeth because Kylo was sick of being used and the Holdo manuever. And while she might not have had a lot of time to reflect on this its still obviously bothering her by the time we get to TROS given her repeated evidence to fearing herself...and then her going to exile herself on Ach To. Also remember, most of Luke's 'reflecting' happened off screen. You are really trying to have your cake and eat it to here, you keep on claiming that she is the next great evil waiting to happen and several people have referenced on here, her 'beating up and robbing Luke but then you claim she has had no moral weaknesses. THAT is a moral weakness. Her quick temper and rashness...however justified she might've felt and how much of a cool scene it might've been...or led to later...was entirely unjustified and maybe a little off putting. She attacked an unarmed senior citizen in the back of the head and the only reason he even held his own was that he tapped into the Force...for the first time in about a decade. It was maybe a little disturbing but then it came out of natural character progression. Hardly a flawless character that they were shoe horning these issues in to make her more interesting, they were always there. And this makes her a compelling fleshed out three dimensional character, one of the most memorable in recent memory and certainly capable of holding her own next to Luke, Palpatine, Vader, or Obi-Wan. As far as the rest of the battle is concerned it all made perfect sense to me: I will acnowledge that the point of Ben not being able to beat the Knights of Ren was perhaps a little bit...contrived? But look at the look on her face, the mixture of cockiness and also fear she had there was a sight to behold. She was fully expecting Palpatine to zap her or the Sith guards to kill her before she could even reach for Leia's lightsaber...the fact they were slow on the uptake was their fault (though admittedly this my personal interpretation). Her getting the power made perfect sense. As soon as the words "Be with me" left her mouth I had a pretty good idea what was going to happen...since it was set up earlier in the movie. I did not anticipate just how bad ass it was going be and maybe I thought I was going to see force ghosts, but it makes perfect sense. She didn't get possessed because Palpatine clearly needed her to strike out at him out of her negative emotions...fear, need for revenge....so he could possess her. Its the whole reason he was constantly talking up nuking her friends and also the death of her parents and also why she says 'you want me to hate you I won't.' The actions at the end were purely defensive and without a hint of negative emotion, explaining why she she didn't get possessed....what the end fight of the Harry Potter franchise should've been but that is another ball of unrelated wax. Now I know I have discussed why I find it logical and consistent with her character and how she could've easily given into that choice at great length...but people born with tremendous power is kind of a Star Wars staple. Its why the Jedi insist and raising young children (well one of the reasons) and why bloodlines are so important in the end. Anakin and Luke were born with tremendous force potential even before Rey came along and you can even throw in the likes of Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda. They didn't 'earn' their power either. They had to master it through training and discpline...just like Rey did. I think the signal she is sending...and the larger Star Wars mythos now at this point...is you aren't doomed to a certain path...nor are you saved to a certain path. This might be the ost important lesson of the nine movies, everyone's corriptuable, everyone's redeamable, it doesen't matter if you are the one Chosen to bring Balance to the Force or the grandaughter of the big bad...you can forge your own path. For some that might mean rejecting their lineage and forming their own identity with the blessing of the thousands of generations which came before, becoming an adopter daughter of the light, and for others that might mean learning its never too late to come home again and that you can always embrace your lineage...if that means doing the right thing. Which is the key here. Goodness and evil isn't something you are pigenheld into its something you can choose for yourself. And I can't think of a more wonderful and diverse message and puts Star Wars now back on the pedestal with Babylon 5 and Dragon Age for truly great storytelling with great characters. Uh... I wrote "presumably" because it's not something we're specifically told, but don't be silly. Palpatine's personal bodyguards were the biggest badasses of the Imperial Army, and he was stronger than Snoke. "Snoke is the first evil overlord in the universe to want shitty bodyguards - and that's what you're supposed to assume until otherwise stated" is a ridiculous defense for a ridiculous scene. And watch it again. Rey kicks their asses while Kylo almost gets killed. And I've already addressed the "not preventing Kylo from being evil is a failure on her part" silliness. The good guys benefited insanely from that debacle, and again, it cost them nothing. And again, she succeeds in the next movie anyway. And again again, she never brings it up again. Remember Luke lying on his bed after Bespin, connecting with Vader through the force and recoiling from it in confusion and wondering why Ben never told him? And him carefully opening up and broaching the subject with Leia in the next movie, telling her about his feelings and how they change things? That's how you establish something affecting your main character. You don't just leave it to people on the internet to try to infer and extrapolate from completely unrelated events in defense of your rushed mess of a trilogy. And no, you're missing the point. I can see that Rey is a perfect and infallible being in Disney's hands, and that they'd never dare to do something so radical as to make her a villain after spending all this time trying to sell her as a golden calf. I just also think that without their plot protection, in a hypothetical second sequel trilogy written by someone more grounded in reality, the kind of person she is and the mindset she has lend themselves really well to "...and then she gradually turned into an insane totalitarian perfectionist and started conquering the galaxy". Certainly more than "and then she turned out to be great at child-rearing, teaching, school administration and political advisement as well." Her getting the power made no sense to me. We haven't seen or heard her explore what the Jedi believed or what their purpose was for even a moment. Why she would expect any of them, let alone all of them, to back her up and bless her carrying on the tradition is beyond me. If anything, them intervening has more to do with Palpatine being close to winning than it has to do with her being the least bit worthy of it. And nope, you have no reason whatsoever to think that Palpatine could only use the body of someone who struck him down in anger. If they wanted people to draw that conclusion then it should have been made clear afterwards. My own theories have ranged from him not being able to possess someone who was already presently containing "all the Jedi" to that him losing patience and sucking the energy out of her and Kylo was what disqualified them from the process. But nothing is made clear, and the first thing that came up on the way out of the theater in my family was "But... wasn't he going to possess them when he died?" And excuse me."They didn't 'earn' their power either. They had to master it through training and discpline...just like Rey did."? I'd very much like to hear you justify this statement, considering that none of them performed Force abilities comparable to her and all but Luke had decades of training and experience under the supervision of qualified teachers on her, not to mention immense investment and sacrifice for the good of the galaxy. And as I pointed out one post ago, Luke didn't win because of his power, he won because of his decisions and his earned understanding and humility. And Anakin - who mostly did win because of power he hadn't earned even though he sure as hell earned it more than Rey has- has a character arc that's meant to be a warning. "Everyone's corruptible - and potentially redeemable" was already the message of the original trilogy 30 years ago. And if anything the sequels go against that theme. Rey never becomes the least bit corrupt or makes dodgy decisions on any level. Her message is closer to "Some people are special and incorruptible and will always ultimately do the right thing - and everyone who isn't a bad guy should instantly follow and like them. And bad guys can occasionally become good guys because they're insane and who knows what they'll do?" I do like the dual themes of "adopted family" and "the prodigal son" in Rey and Kylo, now that you point it out. I hadn't caught that, and you're right that both being present could have been very powerful. If only they had been executed better. Yes, please give me an excuse to rewatch the scene...not like I haven't seen it fifty times already. I suggest you rewatch it. Rey can barely handle a couple of guards backing up and just being kind of overmatched while Kylo is facing 3 to 1 odds. They both help eachother out. If by almost costing them the entire Resistance, almost getting herself killed, and leaving them with another Supreme Leader as nothing... And that's how Rey established it too. She went to Ach To, terrified herself and had a heart to heart with Luke reflecting on her lineage and her arc to that point. Again she was just as confused as Luke was. No I think you are missing my point (tit for tat playing Tennis it seems) that was always what her character arc is. Sure Disney may not have ever let her turn *evil* but those character flaws were intentionally well written an intentionally thought out. They weren't things that unintentionally come off as creepy while Disney is assuring us they're good. They got her into trouble and she had to overcome them...like any other well written character is supposed to do. Overcome obstacles, external and internal. And yes, the possibility is always there that she will relapse again (Luke taught us that) or just give into her darker impulses and go on a rampage (The Dragon queen taught us that one) but this is because she is a three dimensional complex character that has flaws and strengths and pitfalls. She isn't flawless. She was never flawless. And she has learned how to get over those flaws and rise to the occasion. For the moment anyways because we don't know, as of yet, how successful she will be in rebuilding the Jedi Order. Sure there was probably some fear about Palps in there too. Again its my intepretation of the scene and for me its fairly clearly laid out. It makes sense (and actually makes a lot of Star Wars suddenly make sense in hindsight with one of my bigest issues with the setting...dark side corruption) If it doesen't with you, that's fine...but...well we know each other's positions. I have talked to enourmous detail about the level of training Rey has seen throughout these movies, hell its a large part of our own debate on the subject. But to recap, however briefly, she went from an incompetent fly by the seat of her pants girl in the first two movies...obviously powerful in the Force, skilled, and lucky, but at the end of TROS she emerged as a mature capable woman. Can't two trilogies have the same message? Especially with what I think a confusing muddled mess the Prequels were on a thematic level (even more of our debates should make that clear) it almost seems neccessary to drive those lessons home again for a brand new audience. I will admit this lesson isn't exclusive to the Sequels just that with Luke's corruption, Kylo Ren's fall to the Dark Side, and then their own 'redemptions' coupled with Rey's story arc makes it clear. It re contextualizes the entire series and clears up whatever errors and muddyness the previous movies may have caused. Again I disagree with you on her never making dodgy decisions. It was her modus operandai at least in TLJ. I was terrified that she would become corrupted, so I do not think she is incorruptible.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 7:17:11 GMT
Well when you get down to it the Last Jedi dealt with the 'legend' of Luke Skywalker, Luke at his ideal form. They took it and broke it down and then rebuilt it again. Luke's story was one where he became dissilusioned, by everything. Himself, his own power, his legend, and the Jedi...seeing them as corrupt and evil and destructive and needing to go away. But at the end he chose to become the legend again and give the Galaxy a big good thing to look up to and emulate. The 'legend' of Luke Skywalker was not an entirely accurate image of the man Luke Skywalker ultimatley was...just like in the EU the legend that Ganner formed wasn't even close to accurate either...but in the end no matter what he was he became a symbol for everything good and just in the universe again. And that is his legacy. Peace, Justice, Compassion, tolerance (the good kind)....that is what the name 'Skywalker' will always mean because that is how it will always be remembered and how Rey will hopefully continue on that legacy. Well, that's sort of my point, it's a legend of one guy. It's not like there's a dynasty of Skywalkers that she would be following in the footsteps of, carrying on the name. The real legacy is of the Jedi. Rey Jedi would've sounded weird though. Actually come to think of it just et me insert here that she really should call her new order the Skywalkers anyway.
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Post by river82 on Feb 10, 2020 7:32:44 GMT
Over two years on and Star Wars hasn't recovered from being divided. Wow O.O Will be interested where they take the franchise from here. The TV shows look promising, more games on the way, the Clone Wars has started up again, the books are great, the comics are nice, but the movies have been divisive. They'll just need to fix that a little and they could have a real blockbuster franchise on their hands
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 7:34:21 GMT
Over two years on and Star Wars hasn't recovered from being divided. Wow O.O Will be interested where they take the franchise from here. The TV shows look promising, more games on the way, the Clone Wars has started up again, the books are great, the comics are nice, but the movies have been divisive. They'll just need to fix that a little and they could have a real blockbuster franchise on their hands A lot of exciting Star Wars projects either in the works or rumored about, future is bright. And movies are movies, you can only cram so much story into a movie.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 7:39:40 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 7:41:34 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed. I think that's exactly why she did it. Can't go around calling herself Rey Palpatine, fair or not everyone she'd meet would have a cow, try and kill her or run in fear.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 7:44:56 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed. I think that's exactly why she did it. Can't go around calling herself Rey Palpatine, fair or not everyone she'd meet would have a cow, try and kill her or run in fear. Enough people in the Resistance know who she is, and that she grew up an orphan on Jakku and didn't know who her parents were, so I don't think it is plausible. I think they know she is using the Skywalker name as an assumed name or honorary title. Also, hiding her ancestry would be a mistake because it'll come out eventually. If she doesn't reveal it, someone else will, and it will not be pretty when it happens. Worse, if it happens after she has passed away and her kids have to deal with it.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 7:54:03 GMT
I think that's exactly why she did it. Can't go around calling herself Rey Palpatine, fair or not everyone she'd meet would have a cow, try and kill her or run in fear. Enough people in the Resistance know who she is, and that she grew up an orphan on Jakku and didn't know who her parents were, so I don't think it is plausible. I think they know she is using the name as an honorary title. Also, hiding her ancestry would be a mistake because it'll come. If she doesn't reveal it, someone else will, and it will not be pretty when it happens. Worse, if it happens after she has passed away, and her kids have to deal with it. You assume there will be anyone other than Kylo
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Post by river82 on Feb 10, 2020 8:04:22 GMT
Rey and family having to deal with the ramifications of being outed as a Palpatine kinda sounds like a really cool idea for a book
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 10, 2020 8:53:46 GMT
Yes, please give me an excuse to rewatch the scene...not like I haven't seen it fifty times already. I suggest you rewatch it. Rey can barely handle a couple of guards backing up and just being kind of overmatched while Kylo is facing 3 to 1 odds. They both help eachother out. If by almost costing them the entire Resistance, almost getting herself killed, and leaving them with another Supreme Leader as nothing... And that's how Rey established it too. She went to Ach To, terrified herself and had a heart to heart with Luke reflecting on her lineage and her arc to that point. Again she was just as confused as Luke was. No I think you are missing my point (tit for tat playing Tennis it seems) that was always what her character arc is. Sure Disney may not have ever let her turn *evil* but those character flaws were intentionally well written an intentionally thought out. They weren't things that unintentionally come off as creepy while Disney is assuring us they're good. They got her into trouble and she had to overcome them...like any other well written character is supposed to do. Overcome obstacles, external and internal. And yes, the possibility is always there that she will relapse again (Luke taught us that) or just give into her darker impulses and go on a rampage (The Dragon queen taught us that one) but this is because she is a three dimensional complex character that has flaws and strengths and pitfalls. She isn't flawless. She was never flawless. And she has learned how to get over those flaws and rise to the occasion. For the moment anyways because we don't know, as of yet, how successful she will be in rebuilding the Jedi Order. Sure there was probably some fear about Palps in there too. Again its my intepretation of the scene and for me its fairly clearly laid out. It makes sense (and actually makes a lot of Star Wars suddenly make sense in hindsight with one of my bigest issues with the setting...dark side corruption) If it doesen't with you, that's fine...but...well we know each other's positions. I have talked to enourmous detail about the level of training Rey has seen throughout these movies, hell its a large part of our own debate on the subject. But to recap, however briefly, she went from an incompetent fly by the seat of her pants girl in the first two movies...obviously powerful in the Force, skilled, and lucky, but at the end of TROS she emerged as a mature capable woman. Can't two trilogies have the same message? Especially with what I think a confusing muddled mess the Prequels were on a thematic level (even more of our debates should make that clear) it almost seems neccessary to drive those lessons home again for a brand new audience. I will admit this lesson isn't exclusive to the Sequels just that with Luke's corruption, Kylo Ren's fall to the Dark Side, and then their own 'redemptions' coupled with Rey's story arc makes it clear. It re contextualizes the entire series and clears up whatever errors and muddyness the previous movies may have caused. Again I disagree with you on her never making dodgy decisions. It was her modus operandai at least in TLJ. I was terrified that she would become corrupted, so I do not think she is incorruptible. Kylo starts off facing three - while Rey beats back four attacking her simultaneously and sneakily kill-steals one his his while she's at it, the dirty minx. You're right, she definitely has dark side potential going by that. We then see him tussle with two of them while she quickly kills two, and then start a prolonged fight with a third. Meanwhile he gets his ass kicked by three who are eventually joined by a fourth, wounding them here and there, eventually managing to kill two before being disarmed killing the third and then essentially captured. Rey then kills hers, and helps him kill the one holding him, and that's it. Kill counts: Rey: 4 Kylo: 3 Shared(though I'd argue mostly Rey's since the guy was killing Kylo): 1 Kylo has some sweet moves at certain points, but he's also the one who gets into a tight spot and needs her to save him. She absolutely comes away from the fight looking like a badass for someone whose experience with a lightsaber amounts to frantically flailing at a wounded man and swinging it at a rock for a few hours. Listen to you! "The oversized teenage girl isn't made to look ridiculously strong at all, look, she takes one step back to block three fully grown men's attacks at once!" Wow, hold your horses there. "Those character flaws"? The fact that she's so good and perfect that dissatisfied fans think that it might lead to insanity if she was a real person isn't a "character flaw". It's not something that's in the movie, and you can't try to mash it into the movie by pretending that the writers planned for it. Johnson and Abrams weren't playing some reverse-psychology game of "If we make her perfect ENOUGH then the audience will think she might become evil just from being perfect and then THAT is going to generate tension!" At least, if that's the case then I'd like to see the interview where either of them reveals that. I totally reject your notion that Rey has received training comparable to any other Jedi character, or that she isn't the exact same overpowered, underdeveloped, perfectly pure sweetheart at the end of the trilogy as she was in the beginning. Everything you've said in support of either of those ideas has been entirely your own inference with nothing from the movies whatsoever supporting it. Nobody is saying that two trilogies can't have the same theme. It just makes the second one unoriginal. You're the one who tried to make the theme the sequel trilogy's accomplishment alone. And there was never a "brand new audience". Star Wars is a mainstream classic, almost everyone who watches movies has seen the original trilogy. Darth Vader is the most iconic movie villain of all time, and Luke is one of the most prominent heroes. That it might be a good idea to rehash their themes with different characters under the same brand today is very much arguable, but saying that it was necessary to do it is silly. And yes, it certainly re-contextualizes the previous two trilogies. That's... that's true. See, a lot would argue that Luke's and Kylo's arcs - and "Rey's arc" too, I suppose - are such an over-complicated and underdeveloped muddy, erroneous mess that it takes what was a beautiful and human and crystal clear story about overconfidence and selfishness and corruption and hope and bravery and humility and atonement and just... smears a layer of dog turd all over it. Because more is always better, right? Again, I seriously don't begrudge you loving these movies and drawing all the enjoyment you can out of them however you see fit. I'm glad someone is. But the reasoning you're giving for it isn't convincing.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 10, 2020 16:32:35 GMT
You know what's weird? Leia is an Organa, Ben is a Solo, Luke is the only good Skywalker cuz we all know what happened to Anakin. Nobody, not even the RoS movie, remembers very nice lady Shmi. What's this "Skywalker legacy" thing Rey is adopting? There's, like one, Luke, and he disappeared a decade prior. Well when you get down to it the Last Jedi dealt with the 'legend' of Luke Skywalker, Luke at his ideal form. They took it and broke it down and then rebuilt it again. Luke's story was one where he became dissilusioned, by everything. Himself, his own power, his legend, and the Jedi...seeing them as corrupt and evil and destructive and needing to go away. But at the end he chose to become the legend again and give the Galaxy a big good thing to look up to and emulate. The 'legend' of Luke Skywalker was not an entirely accurate image of the man Luke Skywalker ultimatley was...just like in the EU the legend that Ganner formed wasn't even close to accurate either...but in the end no matter what he was he became a symbol for everything good and just in the universe again. And that is his legacy. Peace, Justice, Compassion, tolerance (the good kind)....that is what the name 'Skywalker' will always mean because that is how it will always be remembered and how Rey will hopefully continue on that legacy. Luke DID help rescue Leia. Luke DID destroy the Death Star. Luke did train under Yoda (however briefly) Luke did face Vader on Cloud City Luke did walk into Jabba's den and helped free Han Solo Luke DID face Vader a second time, and redeemed him. Luke DID become a Jedi. These are not legends. These are not stories. These are factual events (within that universe) There is nothing to be disillusioned about. He was a man who had accomplished legendary deeds. If Luke, as the last Jedi decided the Jedi Order needed to change, he was in exactly the position to change them. It as his duty to "pass on what he had learned" (which Jake Skywalker utterly failed at) What The Last Dumpster Fire did was turn that hero into a literal shadow of himself. When he finally got off his *ss to actually DO SOMETHING at the absolute last moment, it was an symbol without substance. A mere gesture, a pretty story with nothing solid behind it. A "legend" without an actual hero behind it. Jake Skywalker, not Luke. Luke was a man of action. A man who made his dreams a reality. Jake was a depressing man who looked at his deeds and decided they were just stories.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 10, 2020 16:34:58 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed. At this rate I'm sure she can use the Force to change her DNA
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 10, 2020 17:45:03 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed. At this rate I'm sure she can use the Force to change her DNA I mean, the Midichlorians are already in the cells, so I don't see a problem ...
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 18:03:12 GMT
Well when you get down to it the Last Jedi dealt with the 'legend' of Luke Skywalker, Luke at his ideal form. They took it and broke it down and then rebuilt it again. Luke's story was one where he became dissilusioned, by everything. Himself, his own power, his legend, and the Jedi...seeing them as corrupt and evil and destructive and needing to go away. But at the end he chose to become the legend again and give the Galaxy a big good thing to look up to and emulate. The 'legend' of Luke Skywalker was not an entirely accurate image of the man Luke Skywalker ultimatley was...just like in the EU the legend that Ganner formed wasn't even close to accurate either...but in the end no matter what he was he became a symbol for everything good and just in the universe again. And that is his legacy. Peace, Justice, Compassion, tolerance (the good kind)....that is what the name 'Skywalker' will always mean because that is how it will always be remembered and how Rey will hopefully continue on that legacy. These are not legends. These are not stories. These are factual events (within that universe) There is nothing to be disillusioned about. He was a man who had accomplished legendary deeds. If Luke, as the last Jedi decided the Jedi Order needed to change, he was in exactly the position to change them. It as his duty to "pass on what he had learned" (which Jake Skywalker utterly failed at)
I don't think that once someone reaches the top they should should just automatically stay there. But, having said that. The bolded is my problem with him in the Last Jedi. He knew the history of the Jedi when he started the school. Obviously it wasn't an issue then, so that shouldn't have been the excuse to give up in the movie. He failed with one student. Not just any old student, his nephew, who his sister trusted him with. If he had doubts that he could train/lead others if he couldn't even help his own family than I could see it the hesitation after failing with Ben. But the whole, the Jedi must end because of what they were stuff was just ridiculous.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 18:38:56 GMT
These are not legends. These are not stories. These are factual events (within that universe) There is nothing to be disillusioned about. He was a man who had accomplished legendary deeds. If Luke, as the last Jedi decided the Jedi Order needed to change, he was in exactly the position to change them. It as his duty to "pass on what he had learned" (which Jake Skywalker utterly failed at)
I don't think that once someone reaches the top they should should just automatically stay there. But, having said that. The bolded is my problem with him in the Last Jedi. He knew the history of the Jedi when he started the school. Obviously it wasn't an issue then, so that shouldn't have been the excuse to give up in the movie. He failed with one student. Not just any old student, his nephew, who his sister trusted him with. If he had doubts that he could train/lead others if he couldn't even help his own family than I could see it the hesitation after failing with Ben. But the whole, the Jedi must end because of what they were stuff was just ridiculous.
it wasn't an issue because he hadn't failed at that point...he was still riding high. And given Yoda and Obi-Wan trained him for one singular thing I'm not that surprised things went as bad as they did. When he failed...because of his temporary weakness and the issues with the Jedi...it opened the floodgates and caused him to have doubts like never before.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 18:45:58 GMT
And yes while Luke did amazing things I wonder how tall the tales got or what stuff was added on later. "Didn't you hear, luke and his Jedi just stopped a massive extra galactic invasion fleet, and they were immune to the Force too!"
That was the whole point of the LEGENDS continuity.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 19:04:23 GMT
I don't think that once someone reaches the top they should should just automatically stay there. But, having said that. The bolded is my problem with him in the Last Jedi. He knew the history of the Jedi when he started the school. Obviously it wasn't an issue then, so that shouldn't have been the excuse to give up in the movie. He failed with one student. Not just any old student, his nephew, who his sister trusted him with. If he had doubts that he could train/lead others if he couldn't even help his own family than I could see it the hesitation after failing with Ben. But the whole, the Jedi must end because of what they were stuff was just ridiculous.
it wasn't an issue because he hadn't failed at that point...he was still riding high. And given Yoda and Obi-Wan trained him for one singular thing I'm not that surprised things went as bad as they did. When he failed...because of his temporary weakness and the issues with the Jedi...it opened the floodgates and caused him to have doubts like never before.
That's the point. There were no issues with the Jedi. He was the Jedi at that point. He was the council. If he felt the Jedi did things the wrong way, change it. It's like saying you don't want to coach a team because of the way the old coach did things. You have it entirely in your power to bring a new culture, so blaming something that happened three decades ago is just stupid. All the stuff about the Jedi in the height of their power letting Palpatine come in a wipe them out is completely irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with him running his own school.
He failed. It was his personal failure, not the Jedi's. So like I said. If he was having doubts if he could lead, fine. If was having doubts that he would lose another student, fine. But for the reason to be, I'm not doing this because I think Jedi who are no longer around did things wrong thirty years ago or more was just ridiculous. Didn't make any sense whatsoever. They could have made him hesitant to train Rey for many other reasons that made much more sense.
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