Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 19:06:41 GMT
At this rate I'm sure she can use the Force to change her DNA I mean, the Midichlorians are already in the cells, so I don't see a problem ... The will of the Force is genetic manipulation? I like where y'alls head is at.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 19:11:24 GMT
it wasn't an issue because he hadn't failed at that point...he was still riding high. And given Yoda and Obi-Wan trained him for one singular thing I'm not that surprised things went as bad as they did. When he failed...because of his temporary weakness and the issues with the Jedi...it opened the floodgates and caused him to have doubts like never before.
That's the point. There were no issues with the Jedi. He was the Jedi at that point. He was the council. If he felt the Jedi did things the wrong way, change it. It's like saying you don't want to coach a team because of the way the old coach did things. You have it entirely in your power to bring a new culture, so blaming something that happened three decades ago is just stupid. All the stuff about the Jedi in the height of their power letting Palpatine come in a wipe them out is completely irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with him running his own school.
He failed. It was his personal failure, not the Jedi's. So like I said. If he was having doubts if he could lead, fine. If was having doubts that he would lose another student, fine. But for the reason to be, I'm not doing this because I think Jedi who are no longer around did things wrong thirty years ago or more was just ridiculous. Didn't make any sense whatsoever. They could have made him hesitant to train Rey for many other reasons that made much more sense.
He didn't have doubts about the Jedi and his teaching method until it was too late to do anything about it which the enormity of his failure caused him to reassess everything. Is this really that hard to understand or have sympathy with?
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 19:30:10 GMT
That's the point. There were no issues with the Jedi. He was the Jedi at that point. He was the council. If he felt the Jedi did things the wrong way, change it. It's like saying you don't want to coach a team because of the way the old coach did things. You have it entirely in your power to bring a new culture, so blaming something that happened three decades ago is just stupid. All the stuff about the Jedi in the height of their power letting Palpatine come in a wipe them out is completely irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with him running his own school.
He failed. It was his personal failure, not the Jedi's. So like I said. If he was having doubts if he could lead, fine. If was having doubts that he would lose another student, fine. But for the reason to be, I'm not doing this because I think Jedi who are no longer around did things wrong thirty years ago or more was just ridiculous. Didn't make any sense whatsoever. They could have made him hesitant to train Rey for many other reasons that made much more sense.
He didn't have doubts about the Jedi and his teaching method until it was too late to do anything about it which the enormity of his failure caused him to reassess everything. Is this really that hard to understand or have sympathy with?
I had sympathy when he told Yoda I can't be what she needs me to be. That's personal, that's looking inside. Then he realized after talking to Yoda that he did have something to offer in learning from his failures. If they had taken that approach from the beginning I would have been fine with it. Which is something they could have easily done without the whole, the Jedi need to end. Their Hubris brought them down, etc etc. That's not him thinking that he personally couldn't do it and then getting past those fears. That's just saying he's not doing it because it shouldn't be done. Because the Jedi are bad and need to end. Which once again, had nothing to do with the task at hand.
Rey didn't even want to be a Jedi, she said she needed someone "to show me what my place is in all of this." She was asking for help from someone who had been through it, not a Jedi.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 19:53:33 GMT
He didn't have doubts about the Jedi and his teaching method until it was too late to do anything about it which the enormity of his failure caused him to reassess everything. Is this really that hard to understand or have sympathy with?
I had sympathy when he told Yoda I can't be what she needs me to be. That's personal, that's looking inside. Then he realized after talking to Yoda that he did have something to offer in learning from his failures. If they had taken that approach from the beginning I would have been fine with it. Which is something they could have easily done without the whole, the Jedi need to end. Their Hubris brought them down, etc etc. That's not him thinking that he personally couldn't do it and then getting past those fears. That's just saying he's not doing it because it shouldn't be done. Because the Jedi are bad and need to end. Which once again, had nothing to do with the task at hand.
Rey didn't even want to be a Jedi, she said she needed someone "to show me what my place is in all of this." She was asking for help from someone who had been through it, not a Jedi.
that was what the movie was doing all along. Maybe he was projecting a little but he thought he failed, the Jedi failed, and thus the Jedi had to end. Rey and Yoda reminded him that failure isn't all encompassing. It's what his entire arc was.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 10, 2020 20:26:56 GMT
That's the point. There were no issues with the Jedi. He was the Jedi at that point. He was the council. If he felt the Jedi did things the wrong way, change it. It's like saying you don't want to coach a team because of the way the old coach did things. You have it entirely in your power to bring a new culture, so blaming something that happened three decades ago is just stupid. All the stuff about the Jedi in the height of their power letting Palpatine come in a wipe them out is completely irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with him running his own school.
He failed. It was his personal failure, not the Jedi's. So like I said. If he was having doubts if he could lead, fine. If was having doubts that he would lose another student, fine. But for the reason to be, I'm not doing this because I think Jedi who are no longer around did things wrong thirty years ago or more was just ridiculous. Didn't make any sense whatsoever. They could have made him hesitant to train Rey for many other reasons that made much more sense.
He didn't have doubts about the Jedi and his teaching method until it was too late to do anything about it which the enormity of his failure caused him to reassess everything . Is this really that hard to understand or have sympathy with?Yes. It's stupid. It goes against his entire character development of the OT. Hell, it goes against his basic personality. If Luke sensed the darkness in Ben but confidently believed he could deal with it, only to fail, fine. That's consistent with his character. If he is reluctant to face Ben because he knows he may have to kill him, and knows he wouldn't be able to do it, fine. That's also consistent. But "Time for the Jedi to end?" while the galaxy burns and his family dies? I call BS. This is Disney destroying the old legacy so they can show off how awesome their own characters are. This is Star Wars in name only.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 21:04:37 GMT
I had sympathy when he told Yoda I can't be what she needs me to be. That's personal, that's looking inside. Then he realized after talking to Yoda that he did have something to offer in learning from his failures. If they had taken that approach from the beginning I would have been fine with it. Which is something they could have easily done without the whole, the Jedi need to end. Their Hubris brought them down, etc etc. That's not him thinking that he personally couldn't do it and then getting past those fears. That's just saying he's not doing it because it shouldn't be done. Because the Jedi are bad and need to end. Which once again, had nothing to do with the task at hand.
Rey didn't even want to be a Jedi, she said she needed someone "to show me what my place is in all of this." She was asking for help from someone who had been through it, not a Jedi.
that was what the movie was doing all along. Maybe he was projecting a little but he thought he failed, the Jedi failed, and thus the Jedi had to end. Rey and Yoda reminded him that failure isn't all encompassing. It's what his entire arc was. Projecting a little lol. And how did Rey help him? If Yoda doesn't show up, the resistance ends, and everybody dies due to cynicism.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 10, 2020 21:15:48 GMT
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 21:34:52 GMT
I had sympathy when he told Yoda I can't be what she needs me to be. That's personal, that's looking inside. Then he realized after talking to Yoda that he did have something to offer in learning from his failures. If they had taken that approach from the beginning I would have been fine with it. Which is something they could have easily done without the whole, the Jedi need to end. Their Hubris brought them down, etc etc. That's not him thinking that he personally couldn't do it and then getting past those fears. That's just saying he's not doing it because it shouldn't be done. Because the Jedi are bad and need to end. Which once again, had nothing to do with the task at hand.
Rey didn't even want to be a Jedi, she said she needed someone "to show me what my place is in all of this." She was asking for help from someone who had been through it, not a Jedi.
that was what the movie was doing all along. Maybe he was projecting a little but he thought he failed, the Jedi failed, and thus the Jedi had to end. Rey and Yoda reminded him that failure isn't all encompassing. It's what his entire arc was. Rey's character journey in TLJ is that she stops looking for saviors. That's somewhat parallel to what Luke is doing with his exile, trying to get people to stop looking to him and the Jedi as saviors. Because he thinks he really can't be everyone's savior. I should probably add that it wasn't the clearest bit of character development for Luke from RotJ to his appearance in TLJ. He's a Jedi of singular ability, sure, but he was also Commander Skywalker, the inspirational Rebel leader.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 21:51:31 GMT
that was what the movie was doing all along. Maybe he was projecting a little but he thought he failed, the Jedi failed, and thus the Jedi had to end. Rey and Yoda reminded him that failure isn't all encompassing. It's what his entire arc was. Rey's character journey in TLJ is that she stops looking for saviors. That's somewhat parallel to what Luke is doing with his exile, trying to get people to stop looking to him and the Jedi as saviors. Because he thinks he really can't be everyone's savior. I should probably add that it wasn't the clearest bit of character development for Luke from RotJ to his appearance in TLJ. He's a Jedi of singular ability, sure, but he was also Commander Skywalker, the inspirational Rebel leader. I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 10, 2020 22:13:26 GMT
So wait a minute the prequels are confusing and muddled mess but yet the sequels are coherent?! Judging by how this trilogy turned out, the prequels have become better movies.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 22:25:13 GMT
So wait a minute the prequels are confusing and muddled mess but yet the sequels are coherent?! Judging by how this trilogy turned out, the prequels have become better movies. I certainly can agree with that.
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Post by Evil on Feb 10, 2020 22:26:01 GMT
One hopes Rey doesn't try to use the Skywalker name to hide her heritage because DNA is still a thing in Star Wars, and at some point the Palpatine ancestry is going to be revealed. I think that's exactly why she did it. Can't go around calling herself Rey Palpatine, fair or not everyone she'd meet would have a cow, try and kill her or run in fear. Its worth noting that there's been times in both real history and fiction where somebody lacked a family name and ended up having to make one or take one. *points at avatar* When they do, its often a statement of intent. I've a LOT of issues with the Disney stuff, but Rey rejecting the Palpatine name and taking the Skywalker one ain't one of 'em. Its no different than someone who had shitty birth parents and good adoptive parents taking the adoptive parents name as a "thank you" to them, a "fuck you" to the birth parents, and a clear sign to everyone else about who they regard as worthy parent figures. I still think Palpatine returning last minute was pants on head retarded tho.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 10, 2020 22:59:47 GMT
Rey's character journey in TLJ is that she stops looking for saviors. That's somewhat parallel to what Luke is doing with his exile, trying to get people to stop looking to him and the Jedi as saviors. Because he thinks he really can't be everyone's savior. I should probably add that it wasn't the clearest bit of character development for Luke from RotJ to his appearance in TLJ. He's a Jedi of singular ability, sure, but he was also Commander Skywalker, the inspirational Rebel leader. I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke.Wut?
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Post by Serza on Feb 10, 2020 23:04:40 GMT
I believe that if Darth Jar Jar was the actual mastermind behind Palpatine, it would improve his character thousand-fold.
Suddenly you wouldn't have the hated, stupid Jar Jar. You would have Darth Jar Jar who fooled literally every single soul into thinking he's an idiot... while successfully plotting the fall of the Jetiise.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 10, 2020 23:10:35 GMT
I believe that if Darth Jar Jar was the actual mastermind behind Palpatine, it would improve his character thousand-fold. Suddenly you wouldn't have the hated, stupid Jar Jar. You would have Darth Jar Jar who fooled literally every single soul into thinking he's an idiot... while successfully plotting the fall of the Jetiise. The Aftermath novel has brief interlude of Jar Jar entertaining human refugee children on Naboo, after the fall of the Empire. I was glad to see that the former Senator from Naboo was not COMPLETELY forgotton.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 23:21:12 GMT
I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke.Wut? The ability to get ones ass kicked is not an indication of relatability.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 10, 2020 23:37:47 GMT
I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke. Sure. I must have missed the scenes in the OT where Luke effortlessly heals the sick, effortlessly lifts a mountainside with his mind, effortlessly flies, redeems people just by staring at their bare chests and touching them, and defeats the strongest, most intelligent and most evil entity in the galaxy by just standing there and out-Forcing them. You're right, Luke was so inhumane and overpowered, winning by relying on his friends, empathizing with his enemies, turning to the dark side in hopelessness and ultimately refusing to let despair turn him into a monster even if it would cost him his life. It's good they brought that shit down to earth with Rey. Again, there was potential there. There's a real story to be told about a washed-out Luke Skywalker who failed in an important and fundamental way and is having trouble dealing with it, learning about the death of his best friend and being called into the fight with an insecurity or bitterness he didn't have before. Rian Johnson just didn't give a damn about telling that story in a way that made the least bit of sense, or with the slightest respect for Mark Hamil or George Lucas' writing. And Abrams could only do so much to right the ship, having been the one to sideline Luke originally. And the "legend" aspect makes no sense either. Is Neil Armstrong a myth that needs to be rehumanized to you? Because he stepped unto the moon almost twice as long ago for us as Luke helped end the Empire for the people living in the Star Wars universe. Hitler did what he did exactly twice as long ago, and somehow we haven't forgotten who he was, what he looked like and how he impacted the world. Luke is a figure of modern history in the galaxy, not a myth. There's no reason in the world why everyone would have forgotten what he did, or blown it out of proportion. It should be in history books, he should have a dossier in the Republic archives from his time serving the Rebels, his sister is the current general of the Resistance and would have made public statements on his behalf to explain what happened to all the Force Senstive children sent to him. Unlike between the prequels and the OT there isn't a totalitarian Emperor ruthlessly tamping down on information about either. His hologram walking out a door to face down Kylo and his AT-ATs somehow being inspiring or impressive in a way his story wasn't already is similarly ridiculous. The whole idea that everything that happened a mere thirty years ago is mythologized and forgotten... while everything that happens in the current trilogy makes its way to the bottom of society and the furthest corners of the galaxy almost as quickly as it occurs, is idiotic. Finn is a "war hero" to Rose Tico a few hours after having met with the Resistance leadership for the first time, having not even joined formally, and the story of an old man walking out of a door, taking some AT-AT blasts and apparently being killed by Kylo Ren somehow immediately makes it to children everywhere. It's stupid, and it gets progressively stupider every time it comes up. Rey has -somehow?- heard of Han Solo as a smuggler, but not as a prominent Rebel general, despite her introduction involving her dicking around with a Rebel pilot helmet and her generally being a Rebel fangirl. Finn has heard of Han Solo the Rebel general, and has served under the modern incarnation of the Sith, and seen one in action, but Luke Skywalker and the Force are a myth to him. All this in spite of Luke Skywalker having been a public figure who was actively training Jedi Knights from all over the galaxy up until less than six years before The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. It's a good thing both Abrams and Johnson are great at the visual stuff, because they suck at worldbuilding.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 10, 2020 23:45:20 GMT
I believe that if Darth Jar Jar was the actual mastermind behind Palpatine, it would improve his character thousand-fold. Suddenly you wouldn't have the hated, stupid Jar Jar. You would have Darth Jar Jar who fooled literally every single soul into thinking he's an idiot... while successfully plotting the fall of the Jetiise. The Aftermath novel has brief interlude of Jar Jar entertaining human refugee children on Naboo, after the fall of the Empire. I was glad to see that the former Senator from Naboo was not COMPLETELY forgotton. Might as well kill him if you're going to make Jar Jar miserable.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 23:50:07 GMT
Luke was by far the most relateable protagonist in any of the trilogies.
He was just an everyday teen, who was just thrust into the conflict.
He just didn't want to be working on a farm all day. He wanted to go into town and hang out with his friends. Then after his friends all left, he wanted to get out of there and go do something as well.
He saw a beautiful woman and his hormones kicked in. To the point where R2 was able to manipulate him into aiding in his escape. Later speechless at the first sight of her in person.
He was impatient when Yoda was testing him to see if he would train him. He was impulsive and wreckless when he went after his friends.
Failed in the cave. Failedin training because he didn't comprehend just what the force was right away.
Was arrogant and overconfident when he went to see Jabba, and ended up in the Rancor pit as a result.
Lost control when Vader threatened his family.
Not like Anakin, who was mature beyond his years in TPM, or Rey who was just loyal and noble out of nowhere. A starving scavenger who turned down months worth of food to show loyalty to a droid that she was willing to leave on the side of the road an hour earlier.
Luke was by far the most relateable, everyday person of all of them.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2020 23:57:50 GMT
I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke. Sure. I must have missed the scenes in the OT where Luke effortlessly heals the sick, effortlessly lifts a mountainside with his mind, effortlessly flies, redeems people just by staring at their bare chests and touching them, and defeats the strongest, most intelligent and most evil entity in the galaxy by just standing there and out-Forcing them. You're right, Luke was so inhumane and overpowered, winning by relying on his friends, empathizing with his enemies, turning to the dark side in hopelessness and ultimately refusing to let despair turn him into a monster even if it would cost him his life. It's good they brought that shit down to earth with Rey. Again, there was potential there. There's a real story to be told about a washed-out Luke Skywalker who failed in an important and fundamental way and is having trouble dealing with it, learning about the death of his best friend and being called into the fight with an insecurity or bitterness he didn't have before. Rian Johnson just didn't give a damn about telling that story in a way that made the least bit of sense, or with the slightest respect for Mark Hamil or George Lucas' writing. And Abrams could only do so much to right the ship, having been the one to sideline Luke originally. And the "legend" aspect makes no sense either. Is Neil Armstrong a myth that needs to be rehumanized to you? Because he stepped unto the moon almost twice as long ago for us as Luke helped end the Empire for the people living in the Star Wars universe. Hitler did what he did exactly twice as long ago, and somehow we haven't forgotten who he was, what he looked like and how he impacted the world. Luke is a figure of modern history in the galaxy, not a myth. There's no reason in the world why everyone would have forgotten what he did, or blown it out of proportion. It should be in history books, he should have a dossier in the Republic archives from his time serving the Rebels, his sister is the current general of the Resistance and would have made public statements on his behalf to explain what happened to all the Force Senstive children sent to him. Unlike between the prequels and the OT there isn't a totalitarian Emperor ruthlessly tamping down on information about either. His hologram walking out a door to face down Kylo and his AT-ATs somehow being inspiring or impressive in a way his story wasn't already is similarly ridiculous. The whole idea that everything that happened a mere thirty years ago is mythologized and forgotten... while everything that happens in the current trilogy makes its way to the bottom of society and the furthest corners of the galaxy almost as quickly as it occurs, is idiotic. Finn is a "war hero" to Rose Tico a few hours after having met with the Resistance leadership for the first time, having not even joined formally, and the story of an old man walking out of a door, taking some AT-AT blasts and apparently being killed by Kylo Ren somehow immediately makes it to children everywhere. It's stupid, and it gets progressively stupider every time it comes up. Rey has -somehow?- heard of Han Solo as a smuggler, but not as a prominent Rebel general, despite her introduction involving her dicking around with a Rebel pilot helmet and her generally being a Rebel fangirl. Finn has heard of Han Solo the Rebel general, and has served under the modern incarnation of the Sith, and seen one in action, but Luke Skywalker and the Force are a myth to him. All this in spite of Luke Skywalker having been a public figure who was actively training Jedi Knights from all over the galaxy up until less than six years before The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. It's a good thing both Abrams and Johnson are great at the visual stuff, because they suck at worldbuilding. If they suck at worldbuilding then so must Lucas because that is exactly the world that they all built. Hitler and Neil Armstrong are actual real world people they aren't fictional characters like Luke or Rey or Palpatine so of course there is going to be simularities or differences. Even in those cases though its worth pointing out both men are probably villainized or idiolized to the point that the actual facts may not actually match the public perception...they rarely do. And this is how things pretty much has always worked in Star Wars. Han Solo back in ANH was 'the Force? What the hell is the Force, I have seen nothing for the Force!' even though the Jedi were active WITHIN HIS LIFE TIME (I think?). Del Mico in Battlefront 2 was disturbed and shocked at the mere idea that the Emperor was a 'Jedi'/ Force Wielder. And I get the impression from within the movie and a lot of the extended material that the Jedi and the Sith essentially tried to isolate themselves from the galaxy at large. Palpatine tried to wipe out all knowledge of the Jedi order and probably a lot of the knowledge on Galactic events had to spread via rumor and hearsay...which would depend greatly on exactly the circles the stories are being told in. So for the FO Han being a Rebel General would be very important, hence what Finn heard while Rey got the smuggler version because she is on a scavenger seedy world and they would've been a lot more interested in 'hey remember that Han Solo who was such an amazing smugger'...'yeah didn't he fight with the Rebellion or something'...'but he was a hell of a smuggler first'. So probably something similar happened to Luke and everyone because what his knowledge was and was not for the general galaxy all they would've heard on the outskirts could've been vague inneundo. Sure it may or may not make sense to you but it is internally consistent to the universe of Star Wars. And even with the general knowledge it probably got told, retold, all the time until he became the ideal. As far as Finn is concerned while he might've been just a grunt he also was pretty singularly responsible for being the one to come up with the plan to take out SK base. Word would've travelled. And that just shows the danger of this kind of myth making considering even that quickly all Rose heard was the idiolized hero of the Resistance Finn who had betrayed the FO to save their butts. It didn't take into account that Finn might've been a slightly selfish man who was doing everything he did simply to save the cute scavenger. Edit: And yes, I find Rey far more retable then Luke...especially OT Luke.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Feb 10, 2020 23:59:13 GMT
I actually came on to point out the similarities between the two, both mega powerful big good characters who...thanks to TLJ had realistic and relatable character flaws. I'll always be grateful to TLJ for humanizing Luke. Sure. I must have missed the scenes in the OT where Luke effortlessly heals the sick, effortlessly lifts a mountainside with his mind, effortlessly flies, redeems people just by staring at their bare chests and touching them, and defeats the strongest, most intelligent and most evil entity in the galaxy by just standing there and out-Forcing them. You forgot using force lightning even though she had never dabbled in dark side powers a moment in her life. Just like mind reading, telekinesis, mind tricking, light saber fighting, she could just do it. Palpatine pummeled Luke with force lightning for who knows how long before Vader stopped him, and Luke wasn't dead. Rey on the other hand, first time using it blows a transport out the air and kills everyone on board.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 1:16:09 GMT
If they suck at worldbuilding then so must Lucas because that is exactly the world that they all built. Hitler and Neil Armstrong are actual real world people they aren't fictional characters like Luke or Rey or Palpatine so of course there is going to be simularities or differences. Even in those cases though its worth pointing out both men are probably villainized or idiolized to the point that the actual facts may not actually match the public perception...they rarely do. And this is how things pretty much has always worked in Star Wars. Han Solo back in ANH was 'the Force? What the hell is the Force, I have seen nothing for the Force!' even though the Jedi were active WITHIN HIS LIFE TIME (I think?). Del Mico in Battlefront 2 was disturbed and shocked at the mere idea that the Emperor was a 'Jedi'/ Force Wielder. And I get the impression from within the movie and a lot of the extended material that the Jedi and the Sith essentially tried to isolate themselves from the galaxy at large. Palpatine tried to wipe out all knowledge of the Jedi order and probably a lot of the knowledge on Galactic events had to spread via rumor and hearsay...which would depend greatly on exactly the circles the stories are being told in. So for the FO Han being a Rebel General would be very important, hence what Finn heard while Rey got the smuggler version because she is on a scavenger seedy world and they would've been a lot more interested in 'hey remember that Han Solo who was such an amazing smugger'...'yeah didn't he fight with the Rebellion or something'...'but he was a hell of a smuggler first'. So probably something similar happened to Luke and everyone because what his knowledge was and was not for the general galaxy all they would've heard on the outskirts could've been vague inneundo. Sure it may or may not make sense to you but it is internally consistent to the universe of Star Wars. And even with the general knowledge it probably got told, retold, all the time until he became the ideal. As far as Finn is concerned while he might've been just a grunt he also was pretty singularly responsible for being the one to come up with the plan to take out SK base. Word would've travelled. And that just shows the danger of this kind of myth making considering even that quickly all Rose heard was the idiolized hero of the Resistance Finn who had betrayed the FO to save their butts. It didn't take into account that Finn might've been a slightly selfish man who was doing everything he did simply to save the cute scavenger. Edit: And yes, I find Rey far more retable then Luke...especially OT Luke. Except that you can look up anything you want to about both Hitler and Neil Armstrong, and anyone who doesn't know their names or take their existence seriously is considered an idiot. They haven't passed into myth. Because that happens over millenia, not decades, especially in a society where information passes at light-speed. And as I said, between the prequel and original trilogies there happens to be this all-powerful Emperor whose powers extend to mind control who is actively leading a campaign to vilify and destroy the reputation of the Jedi. A nd even then, yes, it's still considered implausible and weird among fans. On the other hand, between the original and sequel trilogies we have thirty years of the unopposed Republic ruling with no reason in the world not to use Luke Skywalker as a mascot and recruitment driver and beacon of heir legitimacy, who certainly had records of his existence. There's no explanation or rationale for this to just have been forgotten. It just happens, and the writers ask you to just take it for granted even though it makes no sense and has massive impact on the story and characters. Instead of the story being sensibly formed by the setting and circumstances, the setting and circumstances are noticeably and arbitrarily re-envisioned, altered and twisted to make the story happen. That's what shitty world-building means. And it's far from the only example in this trilogy. Evil factions and projects with no explainable financial or manpower backing turning up out of nowhere led by overpowered Sith overlords never heard of before. Because we must have impressive villains and threats and it doesn't matter how they got there. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Planets with such weird economies that hardworking young people with clean records who are both a capable pilots and expert ship technicians are inexplicably reduced to stealing components and selling them for a living, because those obviously aren't insanely valuable skills in a galaxy far far away. Because it's important for the heroine to be both cool and competent and poor and disadvantaged to get maximum protagonist points. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. The Force going from being an energy field that particularly sensitive individuals could subconsciously call on for subtle enhancements to their skills and that highly trained and disciplined individuals could employ for simple but dramatic effects... to being an infinite source of energy that anyone with the right genes can call on, that only requires the will to use in spectacular manner just because it's really convenient. Because our heroine must retain her disadvantaged background but for political reasons can never be put into a place where she is forced to learn something from an old man to be effective, and also must show up all the heroes who have ever existed in every conceivable way. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Planets with economies based on arms dealing, animal mistreatment and poor little slave children(even though the setting has hyperfunctional robots) portrayed as being the result of evil's influence even though the evil in question has only existed publicly for one day while the "good" Republic and Resistance who are ostensibly promising to fix this and help these poor people have been in power for thirty years without lifting a finger, and are complicit in aforementioned arms dealing. Because anvils about the evils of capitalism and slavery must be dropped and used as nonsensical motivation for the heroes. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Lowlifes who have worked their entire lives for specific objects that will allow them to leave their home planets giving those objects up for the cause and then still somehow teleporting out of harm's way when their planets are actually blown up. Because the audience must feel emotionally invested in the planets sacrificed to ramp up the villains, and must also feel invested in the cavalry arriving with all their new friends. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Galaxies arbitrarily deciding to mobilize based on distress calls at the very end while having ignored the destruction of their core planets and their own conquest. Because it's important for the world to seem in peril, and also important for it to feel like it's all down to our heroes, and also important to make a point about public unity and cooperation and hope. Because worldbuilding doesn't matter. Again and again. "We don't care about our shit making sense, we're just telling whatever story we feel like, and you're just supposed to sit there and take it without thinking." And again, if they hadn't both been experts at also making it all look incredibly gorgeous then the trilogy would have been utter trash.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 11, 2020 2:10:36 GMT
Sure. I must have missed the scenes in the OT where Luke effortlessly heals the sick, effortlessly lifts a mountainside with his mind, effortlessly flies, redeems people just by staring at their bare chests and touching them, and defeats the strongest, most intelligent and most evil entity in the galaxy by just standing there and out-Forcing them. You forgot using force lightning even though she had never dabbled in dark side powers a moment in her life. Just like mind reading, telekinesis, mind tricking, light saber fighting, she could just do it. Palpatine pummeled Luke with force lightning for who knows how long before Vader stopped him, and Luke wasn't dead. Rey on the other hand, first time using it blows a transport out the air and kills everyone on board. I think it was understood that Palpatine could have killed Luke at any time during that electrocution scene in Return of the Jedi, and that he just wanted to torture Luke first. At least that was my impression. Rey, doesn't have control, and one could easily imagine that since she hit something mechanical, that she accidentally shorted out a safety and ignited something flammable.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 11, 2020 2:23:14 GMT
You forgot using force lightning even though she had never dabbled in dark side powers a moment in her life. Just like mind reading, telekinesis, mind tricking, light saber fighting, she could just do it. Palpatine pummeled Luke with force lightning for who knows how long before Vader stopped him, and Luke wasn't dead. Rey on the other hand, first time using it blows a transport out the air and kills everyone on board. I think it was understood that Palpatine could have killed Luke at any time during that electrocution scene in Return of the Jedi, and that he just wanted to torture Luke first. At least that was my impression. Rey, doesn't have control, and one could easily imagine that since she hit something mechanical, that she accidentally shorted out a safety and ignited something flammable. He said alright Jedi, if you won't turn you'll die. Then he proceeded to shock without any further comments. He was literally standing over him shocking the hell out of him. Same way he didn't kill Mace Windu with it. Just threw him out the window. Or Dooku hitting Anakin with it. But all that is beside the point. The fact that she could use it at all was ridiculous. She can now use Jedi and Sith powers without any training. I mean, I keep looking for proof that she isn't OP, but every time you think about the movies there's just more proof that she is.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 11, 2020 2:27:27 GMT
... Luke is a figure of modern history in the galaxy, not a myth. There's no reason in the world why everyone would have forgotten what he did, or blown it out of proportion. It should be in history books, he should have a dossier in the Republic archives from his time serving the Rebels, his sister is the current general of the Resistance and would have made public statements on his behalf to explain what happened to all the Force Senstive children sent to him. Unlike between the prequels and the OT there isn't a totalitarian Emperor ruthlessly tamping down on information about either. ... Pretty sure that was part of the plot of the novel Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor (recommended BTW), where some clown was making holos of Luke and the Rebels and blowing his accomplishments out of the proportion. … He said alright Jedi, if you won't turn you'll die. Then he proceeded to shock without any further comments. He was literally standing over him shocking the hell out of him. Same way he didn't kill Mace Windu with it. Just threw him out the window. Or Dooku hitting Anakin with it. ... I think Palpatine is playing with him. Maybe towards the end he got serious... ... But all that is beside the point. The fact that she could use it at all was ridiculous. She can now use Jedi and Sith powers without any training. I mean, I keep looking for proof that she isn't OP, but every time you think about the movies there's just more proof that she is. Agreed, Rey's use of the Force is far more instinctive than we have previously seen, but that's been going on since TFA. She is clearly more powerful - some sort of Force user savant. I am ambivalent on whether this makes her a poor hero since she still has other character development, obstacles to overcome, etc... In fact, Poe and Finn make a joke halfway through Rise of Skywalker that, when they see Rey use a Jedi mind trick on some Storm Troopers, "could she do that to us?" The really missing interesting story to Rey is that, since she has gone from scavenger to Jedi in year with such little training, does she have the integrity and discipline to keep her power in check when the free will of others gets in her way.
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