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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2020 3:37:30 GMT
If they suck at worldbuilding then so must Lucas because that is exactly the world that they all built. Hitler and Neil Armstrong are actual real world people they aren't fictional characters like Luke or Rey or Palpatine so of course there is going to be simularities or differences. Even in those cases though its worth pointing out both men are probably villainized or idiolized to the point that the actual facts may not actually match the public perception...they rarely do. And this is how things pretty much has always worked in Star Wars. Han Solo back in ANH was 'the Force? What the hell is the Force, I have seen nothing for the Force!' even though the Jedi were active WITHIN HIS LIFE TIME (I think?). Del Mico in Battlefront 2 was disturbed and shocked at the mere idea that the Emperor was a 'Jedi'/ Force Wielder. And I get the impression from within the movie and a lot of the extended material that the Jedi and the Sith essentially tried to isolate themselves from the galaxy at large. Palpatine tried to wipe out all knowledge of the Jedi order and probably a lot of the knowledge on Galactic events had to spread via rumor and hearsay...which would depend greatly on exactly the circles the stories are being told in. So for the FO Han being a Rebel General would be very important, hence what Finn heard while Rey got the smuggler version because she is on a scavenger seedy world and they would've been a lot more interested in 'hey remember that Han Solo who was such an amazing smugger'...'yeah didn't he fight with the Rebellion or something'...'but he was a hell of a smuggler first'. So probably something similar happened to Luke and everyone because what his knowledge was and was not for the general galaxy all they would've heard on the outskirts could've been vague inneundo. Sure it may or may not make sense to you but it is internally consistent to the universe of Star Wars. And even with the general knowledge it probably got told, retold, all the time until he became the ideal. As far as Finn is concerned while he might've been just a grunt he also was pretty singularly responsible for being the one to come up with the plan to take out SK base. Word would've travelled. And that just shows the danger of this kind of myth making considering even that quickly all Rose heard was the idiolized hero of the Resistance Finn who had betrayed the FO to save their butts. It didn't take into account that Finn might've been a slightly selfish man who was doing everything he did simply to save the cute scavenger. Edit: And yes, I find Rey far more retable then Luke...especially OT Luke. Except that you can look up anything you want to about both Hitler and Neil Armstrong, and anyone who doesn't know their names or take their existence seriously is considered an idiot. They haven't passed into myth. Because that happens over millenia, not decades, especially in a society where information passes at light-speed. And as I said, between the prequel and original trilogies there happens to be this all-powerful Emperor whose powers extend to mind control who is actively leading a campaign to vilify and destroy the reputation of the Jedi. A nd even then, yes, it's still considered implausible and weird among fans. On the other hand, between the original and sequel trilogies we have thirty years of the unopposed Republic ruling with no reason in the world not to use Luke Skywalker as a mascot and recruitment driver and beacon of heir legitimacy, who certainly had records of his existence. There's no explanation or rationale for this to just have been forgotten. It just happens, and the writers ask you to just take it for granted even though it makes no sense and has massive impact on the story and characters. Instead of the story being sensibly formed by the setting and circumstances, the setting and circumstances are noticeably and arbitrarily re-envisioned, altered and twisted to make the story happen. That's what shitty world-building means. And it's far from the only example in this trilogy. Evil factions and projects with no explainable financial or manpower backing turning up out of nowhere led by overpowered Sith overlords never heard of before. Because we must have impressive villains and threats and it doesn't matter how they got there. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Planets with such weird economies that hardworking young people with clean records who are both a capable pilots and an expert ship technicians are inexplicably reduced to stealing components and selling them for a living, because those obviously aren't insanely valuable skills in a galaxy far far away. Because it's important for the heroine to be both cool and competent and poor and disadvantaged to get maximum protagonist points. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. The Force going from being an energy field that particularly sensitive individuals could subconsciously call on for subtle enhancements to their skills and that highly trained and disciplined individuals could employ for simple but dramatic effects... to being an infinite source of energy that anyone with the right genes can call on, that only requires the will to use in spectacular manner just because it's really convenient. Because our heroine must retain her disadvantaged background but for political reasons can never be put into a place where she is forced to learn something from an old man to be effective, and also must show up all the heroes who have ever existed in every conceivable way. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Planets with economies based on arms dealing, animal mistreatment and poor little slave children(even though the setting has hyperfunctional robots) portrayed as being the result of evil's influence even though the evil in question has only existed publicly for one day while the "good" Republic and Resistance who are ostensibly promising to fix this and help these poor people have been in power for thirty years without lifting a finger, and are complicit in aforementioned arms dealing. Because anvils about the evils of capitalism and slavery must be dropped and used as nonsensical motivation for the heroes. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Lowlifes who have worked their entire lives for specific objects that will allow them to leave their home planets giving those objects up for the cause and then still somehow teleporting out of harm's way when their planets are actually blown up. Because the audience must feel emotionally invested in the planets sacrificed to ramp up the villains, and must also feel invested in the cavalry arriving with all their new friends. Worldbuilding doesn't matter. Galaxies arbitrarily deciding to mobilize based on distress calls at the very end while having ignored the destruction of their core planets and their own conquest. Because it's important for the world to seem in peril, and also important for it to feel like it's all down to our heroes, and also important to make a point about public unity and cooperation and hope. Because worldbuilding doesn't matter. Again and again. "We don't care about our shit making sense, we're just telling whatever story we feel like, and you're just supposed to sit there and take it without thinking." And again, if they hadn't both been experts at also making it all look incredibly gorgeous then the trilogy would have been utter trash. There is little reason to assume they didn't. But its a logical mistake to assume that the entire Galaxy...especially those outside the juristiction of the NRs control...would have the same access to that knowledge. Even applying that to our world I bet there is a lot of people who haven't ever heard of Hitler in remote 'indigineous' tribes scattered throughout the world. Extrapolate that to an entire Galaxy and suddenly people not being sure that Luke Skywalker exists makes a lot of sense...especially since some of his feats do sound pretty super human if we didn't actually see it ourselves since we are watching these movies. Actually you are right here. This is easily a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions and the need to make *everything* interconnected...either with an eye towards making people buy another story to make money, or just to fill in the plot holes with future pieces of media like comics, books, and game. There is always time for *another* story out there or word of God that can explain these issues. Just like most of the First Order's resources are actually explained away in books and games and stuff. I'm not saying this is ultimatley a good or a bad thing...just maybe a little annoying. That is the entire point of Rey's character arc. Her greatest flaws and obstacles are from herself. There is no doubt she can get off Jakku and make a new life for herself with her very marketable skills...bu she doesen't because she fears leaving Jakku and missing out on her parents return. Character development matters. Worldbuilding matters. The whole 'Force is genetic' thing is a consequence of the prequels and the addition of Midchlorians to the story. I posted a rather long diatribe on this very issue that was eight pages worth of google docs script a while back. But other than that everything else you said...is suspect. The Force has pretty much always worked that way, its always been a pretty infinite energy source which has been fairly easy to access for these individuals with the right genes...they just need the right training and mental conditioning to utilize it. That worked for Luke, Anaking, Yoda, and Rey. Worldbuilding matters. Slavery and capitalism is incompatible so whatever economic system Canto Bight was operating under...it wasn't that one. And yes in a sane world technology replaces human labor...but we hardly see that even in our own. Technology made slavery obsolete here in the United States yet the practice persisted for decades. Automation is ever on the rise yet we still have companies employing people and in some cases trying to screw them over. And while the Republic has may have been in evidence for decades how much does the government in the United States actually help the disadvantage despite paying public lip service to economic equality and security? This is even assuming that canto Bight was even in the juristiction of the NR in the first place. As far as the other in universe explanations who knows? Maybe the slaves are a status symbol, maybe they are cheaper and more unregulated then droid labor...sure this might be a failure of world building but it is logical enough to where it does not bother me. I blame the fans for this one. The fans who have pitched a fit practically every time a character (especially a legacy character) bites the bullet. Even Nien Niub and Admiral Ackbar's deaths had people picking up virtual pitchforks! Disney obviously got so death adverse that they obviously got in the way of any dramatic deaths because they were afraid of the bad publicity, since that's all they've gotten. I can actually just see part of the 'JJ cut' that Chewie would've stayed dead and the executives were like..uh no...REMEMBER HAN/ LUKE. And these so called fans have no regard for storytelling or the real life considerations going into these decisions just 'Mouse Bad'. Worldbuilding matters. We have never seen the Galaxy be conquered in these movies and there is nothing to imply it happened. And the reason why nobody mobilized to this point is A. nobody knew about SKB at the time so it caught them entirely by surprise and B. nobody knew the Resistance would be under siege in advance. All the Resistance did was send off a distress call during the eleventh hour of a siege which the Galaxy had no reason to expect that they would make it and no time to properly coordinate and get there. Contrast this with exegol when the Resistance had a specific plan to present to people and were able to get the message out and started coordinating things even before the attack actually began. It makes sense, if you think about it. If all you see is the pretty lights and the pretty visual effects then thats perfectly fine but I enjoy it for the worldbuilding, character design, and incredible thought that obviously went into these three movies. They have their issues sure but otherwise are fairly well written and consisten, both with themselves and with the Star Wars world building as a whole. As smiles pointed out their biggest problem with worldbuilding wasn't that it wasn't consistent, they just didn't really expand on anything. And in other news: www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/02/rian-johnson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.html
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Post by smilesja on Feb 11, 2020 3:58:09 GMT
Worldbuilding matters, yet Disney didn't even bother to lay the bare basics of it. People complain that the prequels was bloated but Disney was very lazy in implementing the basics of what the state of the galaxy. They can't even decide whether or not the Resistance are Rebels or not!
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 4:52:10 GMT
There is little reason to assume they didn't. But its a logical mistake to assume that the entire Galaxy...especially those outside the juristiction of the NRs control...would have the same access to that knowledge. Even applying that to our world I bet there is a lot of people who haven't ever heard of Hitler in remote 'indigineous' tribes scattered throughout the world. Extrapolate that to an entire Galaxy and suddenly people not being sure that Luke Skywalker exists makes a lot of sense...especially since some of his feats do sound pretty super human if we didn't actually see it ourselves since we are watching these movies. Actually you are right here. This is easily a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions and the need to make *everything* interconnected...either with an eye towards making people buy another story to make money, or just to fill in the plot holes with future pieces of media like comics, books, and game. There is always time for *another* story out there or word of God that can explain these issues. Just like most of the First Order's resources are actually explained away in books and games and stuff. I'm not saying this is ultimatley a good or a bad thing...just maybe a little annoying. That is the entire point of Rey's character arc. Her greatest flaws and obstacles are from herself. There is no doubt she can get off Jakku and make a new life for herself with her very marketable skills...bu she doesen't because she fears leaving Jakku and missing out on her parents return. Character development matters. Worldbuilding matters. The whole 'Force is genetic' thing is a consequence of the prequels and the addition of Midchlorians to the story. I posted a rather long diatribe on this very issue that was eight pages worth of google docs script a while back. But other than that everything else you said...is suspect. The Force has pretty much always worked that way, its always been a pretty infinite energy source which has been fairly easy to access for these individuals with the right genes...they just need the right training and mental conditioning to utilize it. That worked for Luke, Anaking, Yoda, and Rey. Worldbuilding matters. Slavery and capitalism is incompatible so whatever economic system Canto Bight was operating under...it wasn't that one. And yes in a sane world technology replaces human labor...but we hardly see that even in our own. Technology made slavery obsolete here in the United States yet the practice persisted for decades. Automation is ever on the rise yet we still have companies employing people and in some cases trying to screw them over. And while the Republic has may have been in evidence for decades how much does the government in the United States actually help the disadvantage despite paying public lip service to economic equality and security? This is even assuming that canto Bight was even in the juristiction of the NR in the first place. As far as the other in universe explanations who knows? Maybe the slaves are a status symbol, maybe they are cheaper and more unregulated then droid labor...sure this might be a failure of world building but it is logical enough to where it does not bother me. I blame the fans for this one. The fans who have pitched a fit practically every time a character (especially a legacy character) bites the bullet. Even Nien Niub and Admiral Ackbar's deaths had people picking up virtual pitchforks! Disney obviously got so death adverse that they obviously got in the way of any dramatic deaths because they were afraid of the bad publicity, since that's all they've gotten. I can actually just see part of the 'JJ cut' that Chewie would've stayed dead and the executives were like..uh no...REMEMBER HAN/ LUKE. And these so called fans have no regard for storytelling or the real life considerations going into these decisions just 'Mouse Bad'. Worldbuilding matters. We have never seen the Galaxy be conquered in these movies and there is nothing to imply it happened. And the reason why nobody mobilized to this point is A. nobody knew about SKB at the time so it caught them entirely by surprise and B. nobody knew the Resistance would be under siege in advance. All the Resistance did was send off a distress call during the eleventh hour of a siege which the Galaxy had no reason to expect that they would make it and no time to properly coordinate and get there. Contrast this with exegol when the Resistance had a specific plan to present to people and were able to get the message out and started coordinating things even before the attack actually began. It makes sense, if you think about it. If all you see is the pretty lights and the pretty visual effects then thats perfectly fine but I enjoy it for the worldbuilding, character design, and incredible thought that obviously went into these three movies. They have their issues sure but otherwise are fairly well written and consisten, both with themselves and with the Star Wars world building as a whole. As smiles pointed out their biggest problem with worldbuilding wasn't that it wasn't consistent, they just didn't really expand on anything. And in other news: www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/02/rian-johnson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.htmlTrue. But Jakku is where the last battle of the war with the Empire took place. Wrecked Star Destroyers are part of the landscape. You're arguing that it makes perfect sense for someone in the depths of the Amazons to not necessarily know about Hitler when the story is set in Okinawa in 1975, and everyone over thirty personally remembers the fire raining down and their own part in world history. The guy Rey sells her loot to? He was most likely either fighting or hiding and praying that debris wouldn't crush him and everyone he cared about when the war ended. I'm genuinely starting to feel sorry for you for thinking that you have to make these arguments to defend the movies. Explain to me what the population of the galaxy might have heard about Luke that would have sounded impossible and superhuman. Because from where I'm sitting none of what he does that might have made it out to the wider world was. Well, call me an overly critical audience member, but I find it more than a little annoying as an adult to be asked to care about heroes defeating villains that it feels like the writers are literally pulling out of their asses as the story goes on. That isn't "a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions". Shitty worldbuilding is. And that makes it all the more important to call it out instead of excusing it. Don't know about you, but satisfying and self-contained stories is something I kind of want to see again someday. Telling people to watch movies and then telling them to also read a book to actually find it satisfying isn't how you treat customers. A character being too loving and loyal to abandon her parents for career opportunities isn't a character flaw. And it doesn't make sense either. If that was all that held her back then taking short-term jobs off-world and both earning enough money to survive reliably instead of living hand to mouth and getting her name out there would have served her motivations better. And explained her character better, for that matter. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. No it has not. Anakin didn't go around controlling minds and levitating mountains by instinct, certainly not without a decade of expert training, and he was explicitly the most potent Force user in the history of the galaxy. Rey's behavior and abilities break the rules and turned the Force into something it wasn't before. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. Yes we do. The wholesale automation of human jobs has been and will be one of the biggest threats to economic stability in the 21st century. One of the reasons the western world dismisses slavery as a viable or beneficial system out of hand today is specifically because we've already rendered the idea mostly obsolete with technology. For the planet housing the wealthiest and most affluent people we've seen in the galaxy yet to be staffed by slave children instead of droids is objectively idiotic. You can write all the fanficitons you like about why and how it can be twisted and extrapolated to maybe sorta not really make sense. Shitty worldbuilding. Blame the fans for having taste all you want. Characters dying and not dying nonsensically is shitty storytelling no matter what, and the people responsible for the storytelling in their movies are the directors, not the fans. I didn't even have time to give a shit about Poe's snarky ex-girlfriend or the droid mechanic who inexplicably didn't have the equipment to copy droid programming. But the plot saves them for no reason and with no explanation. That it had unceremoniously and equally stupidly killed fan-favorite characters in both of the previous movies only makes it worse. Ahem: The First Order is quite heavily implied to be in the process of conquering the galaxy, thank you very much. We just never find out exactly how or what it means or how far along they are, even though this has pretty massive implications for how high the stakes are in the story. Because of Rian's and J.J's shitty worldbuilding. I see pretty lights and directors who should have left the writing to someone else, that's what I see. The movies are objectively terribly written and totally inconsistent. That you like them in spite of it and are willing to make excuses for them is great, it really is. But it also doesn't change anything about the actual movies.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 11, 2020 5:34:55 GMT
There is little reason to assume they didn't. But its a logical mistake to assume that the entire Galaxy...especially those outside the juristiction of the NRs control...would have the same access to that knowledge. Even applying that to our world I bet there is a lot of people who haven't ever heard of Hitler in remote 'indigineous' tribes scattered throughout the world. Extrapolate that to an entire Galaxy and suddenly people not being sure that Luke Skywalker exists makes a lot of sense...especially since some of his feats do sound pretty super human if we didn't actually see it ourselves since we are watching these movies. Actually you are right here. This is easily a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions and the need to make *everything* interconnected...either with an eye towards making people buy another story to make money, or just to fill in the plot holes with future pieces of media like comics, books, and game. There is always time for *another* story out there or word of God that can explain these issues. Just like most of the First Order's resources are actually explained away in books and games and stuff. I'm not saying this is ultimatley a good or a bad thing...just maybe a little annoying. That is the entire point of Rey's character arc. Her greatest flaws and obstacles are from herself. There is no doubt she can get off Jakku and make a new life for herself with her very marketable skills...bu she doesen't because she fears leaving Jakku and missing out on her parents return. Character development matters. Worldbuilding matters. The whole 'Force is genetic' thing is a consequence of the prequels and the addition of Midchlorians to the story. I posted a rather long diatribe on this very issue that was eight pages worth of google docs script a while back. But other than that everything else you said...is suspect. The Force has pretty much always worked that way, its always been a pretty infinite energy source which has been fairly easy to access for these individuals with the right genes...they just need the right training and mental conditioning to utilize it. That worked for Luke, Anaking, Yoda, and Rey. Worldbuilding matters. Slavery and capitalism is incompatible so whatever economic system Canto Bight was operating under...it wasn't that one. And yes in a sane world technology replaces human labor...but we hardly see that even in our own. Technology made slavery obsolete here in the United States yet the practice persisted for decades. Automation is ever on the rise yet we still have companies employing people and in some cases trying to screw them over. And while the Republic has may have been in evidence for decades how much does the government in the United States actually help the disadvantage despite paying public lip service to economic equality and security? This is even assuming that canto Bight was even in the juristiction of the NR in the first place. As far as the other in universe explanations who knows? Maybe the slaves are a status symbol, maybe they are cheaper and more unregulated then droid labor...sure this might be a failure of world building but it is logical enough to where it does not bother me. I blame the fans for this one. The fans who have pitched a fit practically every time a character (especially a legacy character) bites the bullet. Even Nien Niub and Admiral Ackbar's deaths had people picking up virtual pitchforks! Disney obviously got so death adverse that they obviously got in the way of any dramatic deaths because they were afraid of the bad publicity, since that's all they've gotten. I can actually just see part of the 'JJ cut' that Chewie would've stayed dead and the executives were like..uh no...REMEMBER HAN/ LUKE. And these so called fans have no regard for storytelling or the real life considerations going into these decisions just 'Mouse Bad'. Worldbuilding matters. We have never seen the Galaxy be conquered in these movies and there is nothing to imply it happened. And the reason why nobody mobilized to this point is A. nobody knew about SKB at the time so it caught them entirely by surprise and B. nobody knew the Resistance would be under siege in advance. All the Resistance did was send off a distress call during the eleventh hour of a siege which the Galaxy had no reason to expect that they would make it and no time to properly coordinate and get there. Contrast this with exegol when the Resistance had a specific plan to present to people and were able to get the message out and started coordinating things even before the attack actually began. It makes sense, if you think about it. If all you see is the pretty lights and the pretty visual effects then thats perfectly fine but I enjoy it for the worldbuilding, character design, and incredible thought that obviously went into these three movies. They have their issues sure but otherwise are fairly well written and consisten, both with themselves and with the Star Wars world building as a whole. As smiles pointed out their biggest problem with worldbuilding wasn't that it wasn't consistent, they just didn't really expand on anything. And in other news: www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/02/rian-johnson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.htmlTrue. But Jakku is where the last battle of the war with the Empire took place. Wrecked Star Destroyers are part of the landscape. You're arguing that it makes perfect sense for someone in the depths of the Amazons to not necessarily know about Hitler when the story is set in Okinawa in 1975, and everyone over thirty personally remembers the fire raining down and their own part in world history. The guy Rey sells her loot to? He was most likely either fighting or hiding and praying that debris wouldn't crush him and everyone he cared about when the war ended. I'm genuinely starting to feel sorry for you for thinking that you have to make these arguments to defend the movies. Explain to me what the population of the galaxy might have heard about Luke that would have sounded impossible and superhuman. Because from where I'm sitting none of what he does that might have made it out to the wider world was. Well, call me an overly critical audience member, but I find it more than a little annoying as an adult to be asked to care about heroes defeating villains that it feels like the writers are literally pulling out of their asses as the story goes on. That isn't "a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions". Shitty worldbuilding is. And that makes it all the more important to call it out instead of excusing it. Don't know about you, but satisfying and self-contained stories is something I kind of want to see again someday. Telling people to watch movies and then telling them to also read a book to actually find it satisfying isn't how you treat customers. A character being too loving and loyal to abandon her parents for career opportunities isn't a character flaw. And it doesn't make sense either. If that was all that held her back then taking short-term jobs off-world and both earning enough money to survive reliably instead of living hand to mouth and getting her name out there would have served her motivations better. And explained her character better, for that matter. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. No it has not. Anakin didn't go around controlling minds and levitating mountains by instinct, certainly not without a decade of expert training, and he was explicitly the most potent Force user in the history of the galaxy. Rey's behavior and abilities break the rules and turned the Force into something it wasn't before. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. Yes we do. The wholesale automation of human jobs has been and will be one of the biggest threats to economic stability in the 21st century. One of the reasons the western world dismisses slavery as a viable or beneficial system out of hand today is specifically because we've already rendered the idea mostly obsolete with technology. For the planet housing the wealthiest and most affluent people we've seen in the galaxy yet to be staffed by slave children instead of droids is objectively idiotic. You can write all the fanficitons you like about why and how it can be twisted and extrapolated to maybe sorta not really make sense. Shitty worldbuilding. Blame the fans for having taste all you want. Characters dying and not dying nonsensically is shitty storytelling no matter what, and the people responsible for the storytelling in their movies are the directors, not the fans. I didn't even have time to give a shit about Poe's snarky ex-girlfriend or the droid mechanic who inexplicably didn't have the equipment to copy droid programming. But the plot saves them for no reason and with no explanation. That it had unceremoniously and equally stupidly killed fan-favorite characters in both of the previous movies only makes it worse. Ahem: The First Order is quite heavily implied to be in the process of conquering the galaxy, thank you very much. We just never find out exactly how or what it means or how far along they are, even though this has pretty massive implications for how high the stakes are in the story. Because of Rian's and J.J's shitty worldbuilding. I see pretty lights and directors who should have left the writing to someone else, that's what I see. The movies are objectively terribly written and totally inconsistent. That you like them in spite of it and are willing to make excuses for them is great, it really is. But it also doesn't change anything about the actual movies. It's probably very easy to hate the sequel trilogy if you start off by complaining about EVERY premise the story is built on. So... 1) competent people in backwater worlds couldn't possibly be poor cuz opportunity abounds for upward mobility and improvement in their lives 2) Luke's and Jedi's reputation could not possibly be blown out of proportion cuz... reasons ...got it. You know what, on second thought the opposite of those 2 seem kinda plausible.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 5:57:36 GMT
It's probably very easy to hate the sequel trilogy if you start off by complaining about EVERY premise the story is built on. So... 1) competent people in backwater worlds couldn't possibly be poor cuz opportunity abounds for upward mobility and improvement in their lives 2) Luke's and Jedi's reputation could not possibly be blown out of proportion cuz... reasons ...got it. You know what, on second thought the opposite of those 2 seem kinda plausible. I don't hate it. I bought my tickets hoping and expecting to like it just like everyone else, and the movies aren't overall terrible mainly thanks to the decent acting and excellent visuals. I actually prefer to praise what I like about them. The writing is still shoddy though, and I certainly don't mind pointing out why or poking holes in flawed logic that tries to support it. 1) There's a subtle difference between "competent people" and "people in possession of highly specialized and marketable skills in constant high demand" that you're downplaying by framing it like that. If you look at the difference between poor people and well-to-do people anywhere in the world, expert training in valuable occupations is a pretty important factor. Rey could easily have gotten a much better job in any realistic economy. That's a fact. 2) Luke's and the Jedi's reputations being blown out of proportion is one thing, which for the record we don't hear or see anything to indicate throughout the trilogy. For them to be forgotten and disbelieved simply because of time, and such an incredibly short time at that, is another.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2020 6:15:54 GMT
True. But Jakku is where the last battle of the war with the Empire took place. Wrecked Star Destroyers are part of the landscape. You're arguing that it makes perfect sense for someone in the depths of the Amazons to not necessarily know about Hitler when the story is set in Okinawa in 1975, and everyone over thirty personally remembers the fire raining down and their own part in world history. The guy Rey sells her loot to? He was most likely either fighting or hiding and praying that debris wouldn't crush him and everyone he cared about when the war ended. I'm genuinely starting to feel sorry for you for thinking that you have to make these arguments to defend the movies. Explain to me what the population of the galaxy might have heard about Luke that would have sounded impossible and superhuman. Because from where I'm sitting none of what he does that might have made it out to the wider world was. Well, call me an overly critical audience member, but I find it more than a little annoying as an adult to be asked to care about heroes defeating villains that it feels like the writers are literally pulling out of their asses as the story goes on. That isn't "a consequence of our modern storytelling conventions". Shitty worldbuilding is. And that makes it all the more important to call it out instead of excusing it. Don't know about you, but satisfying and self-contained stories is something I kind of want to see again someday. Telling people to watch movies and then telling them to also read a book to actually find it satisfying isn't how you treat customers. A character being too loving and loyal to abandon her parents for career opportunities isn't a character flaw. And it doesn't make sense either. If that was all that held her back then taking short-term jobs off-world and both earning enough money to survive reliably instead of living hand to mouth and getting her name out there would have served her motivations better. And explained her character better, for that matter. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. No it has not. Anakin didn't go around controlling minds and levitating mountains by instinct, certainly not without a decade of expert training, and he was explicitly the most potent Force user in the history of the galaxy. Rey's behavior and abilities break the rules and turned the Force into something it wasn't before. Shitty worldbuilding and character development. Yes we do. The wholesale automation of human jobs has been and will be one of the biggest threats to economic stability in the 21st century. One of the reasons the western world dismisses slavery as a viable or beneficial system out of hand today is specifically because we've already rendered the idea mostly obsolete with technology. For the planet housing the wealthiest and most affluent people we've seen in the galaxy yet to be staffed by slave children instead of droids is objectively idiotic. You can write all the fanficitons you like about why and how it can be twisted and extrapolated to maybe sorta not really make sense. Shitty worldbuilding. Blame the fans for having taste all you want. Characters dying and not dying nonsensically is shitty storytelling no matter what, and the people responsible for the storytelling in their movies are the directors, not the fans. I didn't even have time to give a shit about Poe's snarky ex-girlfriend or the droid mechanic who inexplicably didn't have the equipment to copy droid programming. But the plot saves them for no reason and with no explanation. That it had unceremoniously and equally stupidly killed fan-favorite characters in both of the previous movies only makes it worse. Ahem: The First Order is quite heavily implied to be in the process of conquering the galaxy, thank you very much. We just never find out exactly how or what it means or how far along they are, even though this has pretty massive implications for how high the stakes are in the story. Because of Rian's and J.J's shitty worldbuilding. I see pretty lights and directors who should have left the writing to someone else, that's what I see. The movies are objectively terribly written and totally inconsistent. That you like them in spite of it and are willing to make excuses for them is great, it really is. But it also doesn't change anything about the actual movies. It's probably very easy to hate the sequel trilogy if you start off by complaining about EVERY premise the story is built on. So... 1) competent people in backwater worlds couldn't possibly be poor cuz opportunity abounds for upward mobility and improvement in their lives 2) Luke's and Jedi's reputation could not possibly be blown out of proportion cuz... reasons ...got it. You know what, on second thought the opposite of those 2 seem kinda plausible. when people start using terms like objectively bad writing is when I tend to tune out.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 11, 2020 6:45:21 GMT
Prequel fans have been hearing that statement for years.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2020 6:48:31 GMT
Prequel fans have been hearing that statement for years. I can certainly sympathize with how frustrating that must be, especially when it seems to be the modus operandai of so many people who keep on hating on a lot of modern fiction.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 10:09:06 GMT
I can certainly sympathize with how frustrating that must be, especially when it seems to be the modus operandai of so many people who keep on hating on a lot of modern fiction. I can't, frankly. Liking something that a lot of others don't is perfectly fine and normal, but pretending that people are doing something wrong, offensive or hateful by noticing, pointing out and discussing flaws in something you adore is a bit silly. Some obviously take it too far and start actually behaving hatefully, yes, but those are mostly few and far between. The prequel trilogy had its own very obvious problems. The polar opposite of the sequels, in some ways. The writing was solid enough on paper, and it was the directing that was hugely lacking. And like with the sequels, after a while you just start appreciating the things they did right while wishing the standard had been held across the board. They've also had time for nostalgia to set in. In that sense I guess the sequels and prequels are good for each other, with the rather awkward prequels highlighting the sequels' incredible visuals and evocative scene direction, and the sequels highlighting the prequels' stronger and more cohesive story, worldbuilding and character arcs. Though Revenge of the Sith is the odd man out in that comparison for holding up fairly well on all those fronts. ... *puts on Battle of the Heroes* One of the things I really hadn't expected to disappoint me about the sequels was the music. John Williams is 50% of what makes Star Wars work, but aside from Rey's lovely little theme none of the new tracks really stand out to me just based on watching the movies. Has anyone else noticed one that kicks ass?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2020 10:18:27 GMT
I can certainly sympathize with how frustrating that must be, especially when it seems to be the modus operandai of so many people who keep on hating on a lot of modern fiction. I can't, frankly. Liking something that a lot of others don't is perfectly fine and normal, but pretending that people are doing something wrong, offensive or hateful by noticing, pointing out and discussing flaws in something you adore is a bit silly. Some obviously take it too far and start actually behaving hatefully, yes, but those are mostly few and far between. The prequel trilogy had its own very obvious problems. The polar opposite of the sequels, in some ways. The writing was solid enough on paper, and it was the directing that was hugely lacking. And like with the sequels, after a while you just start appreciating the things they did right while wishing the standard had been held across the board. They've also had time for nostalgia to set in. In that sense I guess the sequels and prequels are good for each other, with the rather awkward prequels highlighting the sequels' incredible visuals and evocative scene direction, and the sequels highlighting the prequels' stronger and more cohesive story, worldbuilding and character arcs. Though Revenge of the Sith is the odd man out in that comparison for holding up fairly well on all those fronts. ... *puts on Battle of the Heroes* One of the things I really hadn't expected to disappoint me about the sequels was the music. John Williams is 50% of what makes Star Wars work, but aside from Rey's lovely theme none of the new tracks really stand out to me just based on watching the movies. Has anyone else noticed one? the issue I've always had is when people bring OBJECTIVE flaws into this. Nothing about art is truly objective. I have had long productive conversations discussing the strengths and weaknesses of these movies with several people, even you, just when people start pretending their opinion is somehow factual or actually insulting the work...by using moronic hot button terms, or insulting the other side...is where I have the issue. Rey's theme. Kylo's theme. March of the Resistance. A New Alliance. The Battle of Crait. The Spark. That music that plays when Kylo is going after Exegol. The music that plays as Rey/ the Resistance is blowing the hell out of the final bits of the Final Order. A New Home. All great music...imo
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Post by cypherj on Feb 11, 2020 10:44:49 GMT
… He said alright Jedi, if you won't turn you'll die. Then he proceeded to shock without any further comments. He was literally standing over him shocking the hell out of him. Same way he didn't kill Mace Windu with it. Just threw him out the window. Or Dooku hitting Anakin with it. ... I think Palpatine is playing with him. Maybe towards the end he got serious... ... But all that is beside the point. The fact that she could use it at all was ridiculous. She can now use Jedi and Sith powers without any training. I mean, I keep looking for proof that she isn't OP, but every time you think about the movies there's just more proof that she is. Agreed, Rey's use of the Force is far more instinctive than we have previously seen, but that's been going on since TFA. She is clearly more powerful - some sort of Force user savant. I am ambivalent on whether this makes her a poor hero since she still has other character development, obstacles to overcome, etc... In fact, Poe and Finn make a joke halfway through Rise of Skywalker that, when they see Rey use a Jedi mind trick on some Storm Troopers, "could she do that to us?" The really missing interesting story to Rey is that, since she has gone from scavenger to Jedi in year with such little training, does she have the integrity and discipline to keep her power in check when the free will of others gets in her way. That's what I said. After he says now you'll die, he stops the shock, taunt, shock taunt he was doing and just pummels him with lightning nonstop without a word. Clearly trying to kill him. As for the rest. Whatever word you want to use in place of overpowered, use it. But the movie gives no reasoning behind it, and she's just OP for story purposes. This is one of the reasons why people call her OP or a Mary Sue. She's given everything, but she didn't have to work for any of it. This is why I shake my head when people say that she's a relatable character. She's not the girl that started off with nothing, pulled herself up by her bootstraps, and through hard work and dedication made something of herself. She's the rich kid that grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth, who was given everything without having to work for it. She started off as the former, and quickly became the latter. This is why she isn't relatable to a lot of people.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2020 10:48:24 GMT
I think Palpatine is playing with him. Maybe towards the end he got serious... Agreed, Rey's use of the Force is far more instinctive than we have previously seen, but that's been going on since TFA. She is clearly more powerful - some sort of Force user savant. I am ambivalent on whether this makes her a poor hero since she still has other character development, obstacles to overcome, etc... In fact, Poe and Finn make a joke halfway through Rise of Skywalker that, when they see Rey use a Jedi mind trick on some Storm Troopers, "could she do that to us?" The really missing interesting story to Rey is that, since she has gone from scavenger to Jedi in year with such little training, does she have the integrity and discipline to keep her power in check when the free will of others gets in her way. That's what I said. After he says now you'll die, he stops the shock, taunt, shock taunt he was doing and just pummels him with lightning nonstop without a word. Clearly trying to kill him. As for the rest. Whatever word you want to use in place of overpowered, use it. But the movie gives no reasoning behind it, and she's just OP for story purposes. This is one of the reasons why people call her OP or a Mary Sue. She's given everything, but she didn't have to work for any of it. This is why I shake my head when people say that she's a relatable character. She's not the girl that started off with nothing, pulled herself up by her bootstraps, and through hard work and dedication made something of herself. She's the rich kid that grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth, who was given everything without having to work for it. This is why she isn't relatable to a lot of people. you have a really interesting definition of growing up with a silver spoon.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 11:47:17 GMT
the issue I've always had is when people bring OBJECTIVE flaws into this. Nothing about art is truly objective. I have had long productive conversations discussing the strengths and weaknesses of these movies with several people, even you, just when people start pretending their opinion is somehow factual or actually insulting the work...by using moronic hot button terms, or insulting the other side...is where I have the issue. Rey's theme. Kylo's theme. March of the Resistance. A New Alliance. The Battle of Crait. The Spark. That music that plays when Kylo is going after Exegol. The music that plays as Rey/ the Resistance is blowing the hell out of the final bits of the Final Order. A New Home. All great music...imo Huh. I've always thought that a really arbitrary line to draw. For one thing, movies are mostly considered entertainment, not art, and entertainment that leaves a large part of its audience confused and annoyed and feeling swindled and deeming it sub-par compared to its competition is OBJECTIVELY pretty mediocre entertainment at best. And when that happens because the writing is full of holes and inconsistencies, and every defense for those holes and inconsistencies is proven unsatisfying, then that writing is pretty objectively bad. The "nothing in art is objective" defense only makes sense for something that isn't art when you've consciously or subconsciously ignored accepted standards and personally raised it to the status of art in order to call it unimpugnably good. Which is just unnecessary. You can say "Okay, the movies' writing has some objective holes and conflicts and weird decisions. But I don't even notice them myself, and I find the obvious intentions of the writers so compelling and meaningful and true to what I'd want from their story that I just don't give a damn. I love watching them, I love thinking about them, and I wish more people would love them too." But once you start arguing that they make perfect sense because of things you've personally invented to sort of fill those holes and gaps then you're opening yourself up to debate with people to whom it looks like you're just lying in order to make something look better than it actually was when they paid to see it just like you did. A New Home and the parts of Kylo's Theme that aren't just downplayed Imperial March are pretty good. The Battle of Crait sounds too much like a jumble of classic Star Wars and Jurassic Park themes to me. Just... no. Kylo navigating the weird space cancer was a cool scene, aside from the obvious plot hole that it turns out not to actually surround the planet and he and everyone else could just have flown around it. I don't remember if the music had a lot to do with it, but it might have. you have a really interesting definition of growing up with a silver spoon. Tsk Tsk. Wealth is subjective, don't you know? I think it's an apt comparison. Rey is the richest person in the entire galaxy in the only two currencies that really matter - moral fibre and strength in the force. And neither one is earned so far as the audience is concerned.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 11, 2020 14:27:44 GMT
Anyone else see these episodes in Clone Wars and can attest to whether the prophecy was already fulfilled on this mission to Mortis? starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_MortisP.S. Paid $2 for the first episode on GooglePlay movies, and - not bad.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 11, 2020 15:29:45 GMT
Those episodes are so ridiculous. And I really hope not. It'd cast the Jedi council in a rather different light for them to have been wringing their hands over the state of the galaxy for millennia when in fact the important thing was this one planet none of them had ever heard of. The series does a brilliant job of making sci-fi war stories both kid-friendly and poignant while at the same time expanding the lore and galaxy. But whenever it tries to delve into the Force stuff it loses me completely. Same with Rebels. And for that matter both the prequels and the sequels. Why can't they just stop fiddling with it? Wish they'd spend that time exploring the actual philosophies and psychologies of the Jedi and Sith, instead of constantly trying to put new faces on the damn space magic that's worked perfectly well as it is for thirty years.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 11, 2020 21:15:40 GMT
For one thing, movies are mostly considered entertainment, not art, By whom?
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 11, 2020 21:54:22 GMT
Those episodes are so ridiculous. And I really hope not. It'd cast the Jedi council in a rather different light for them to have been wringing their hands over the state of the galaxy for millennia when in fact the important thing was this one planet none of them had ever heard of. The series does a brilliant job of making sci-fi war stories both kid-friendly and poignant while at the same time expanding the lore and galaxy. But whenever it tries to delve into the Force stuff it loses me completely. Same with Rebels. And for that matter both the prequels and the sequels. Why can't they just stop fiddling with it? Wish they'd spend that time exploring the actual philosophies and psychologies of the Jedi and Sith, instead of constantly trying to put new faces on the damn space magic that's worked perfectly well as it is for thirty years. I think if they explained the mystique, it wouldn't be mystique. And then who'd buy it? "Stay tuned for answers!!!"
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Post by cypherj on Feb 11, 2020 22:35:00 GMT
Anyone else see these episodes in Clone Wars and can attest to whether the prophecy was already fulfilled on this mission to Mortis? starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_MortisP.S. Paid $2 for the first episode on GooglePlay movies, and - not bad. I don't know know about fulfilling the prophecy. But those were some of my favorite episodes in the series. I think that was the first season they changed the art style to make it look a little less kiddie. But I enjoyed the entire arc from that part of the series. It's also when Ahsoka started going from being everyone's punching bag to one of their favorite characters.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2020 1:44:37 GMT
the issue I've always had is when people bring OBJECTIVE flaws into this. Nothing about art is truly objective. I have had long productive conversations discussing the strengths and weaknesses of these movies with several people, even you, just when people start pretending their opinion is somehow factual or actually insulting the work...by using moronic hot button terms, or insulting the other side...is where I have the issue. Rey's theme. Kylo's theme. March of the Resistance. A New Alliance. The Battle of Crait. The Spark. That music that plays when Kylo is going after Exegol. The music that plays as Rey/ the Resistance is blowing the hell out of the final bits of the Final Order. A New Home. All great music...imo you have a really interesting definition of growing up with a silver spoon. Tsk Tsk. Wealth is subjective, don't you know? I think it's an apt comparison. Rey is the richest person in the entire galaxy in the only two currencies that really matter - moral fibre and strength in the force. And neither one is earned so far as the audience is concerned. Anyone else see these episodes in Clone Wars and can attest to whether the prophecy was already fulfilled on this mission to Mortis? starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_MortisP.S. Paid $2 for the first episode on GooglePlay movies, and - not bad. the issue I've always had is when people bring OBJECTIVE flaws into this. Nothing about art is truly objective. I have had long productive conversations discussing the strengths and weaknesses of these movies with several people, even you, just when people start pretending their opinion is somehow factual or actually insulting the work...by using moronic hot button terms, or insulting the other side...is where I have the issue. Rey's theme. Kylo's theme. March of the Resistance. A New Alliance. The Battle of Crait. The Spark. That music that plays when Kylo is going after Exegol. The music that plays as Rey/ the Resistance is blowing the hell out of the final bits of the Final Order. A New Home. All great music...imo you have a really interesting definition of growing up with a silver spoon. Tsk Tsk. Wealth is subjective, don't you know? I think it's an apt comparison. Rey is the richest person in the entire galaxy in the only two currencies that really matter - moral fibre and strength in the force. And neither one is earned so far as the audience is concerned. In my experience the only people who try and divide art and entertainment are trying to raise one up for hoity toity reasons. There is little practical difference between the two concepts in my mind. And I don't think argumentum ad populum is an effective tactic, especially in entertainment. I don't give two hoots for the popular opinion especially considering some areas of the net the praise and adoration are quite universal. And that is the big problem. You think I'm inventing things, making things up...now lying. Well these are my genuine impressions from these movies and scenes I've referenced, quoted, even posted here. But because your interpretation is different...they don't exist. Now your takes might even be 'right', but that does not change the fact that my interpretation also has support. So how does one earn moral fiber and strength in the Force? Because Force strength has always been implied to be genetic, at least in part, since ANH. And moral fiber...well Luke and Obi-Wan always seemed like upstanding citizens with natural instincts on what the right thing was...so I'm not sure how they earned that either. Anyone else see these episodes in Clone Wars and can attest to whether the prophecy was already fulfilled on this mission to Mortis? starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_MortisP.S. Paid $2 for the first episode on GooglePlay movies, and - not bad. coincidentally enough I just watched all three episodes.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 12, 2020 3:23:07 GMT
In my experience the only people who try and divide art and entertainment are trying to raise one up for hoity toity reasons. There is little practical difference between the two concepts in my mind. And I don't think argumentum ad populum is an effective tactic, especially in entertainment. I don't give two hoots for the popular opinion especially considering some areas of the net the praise and adoration are quite universal. And that is the big problem. You think I'm inventing things, making things up...now lying. Well these are my genuine impressions from these movies and scenes I've referenced, quoted, even posted here. But because your interpretation is different...they don't exist. Now your takes might even be 'right', but that does not change the fact that my interpretation also has support. So how does one earn moral fiber and strength in the Force? Because Force strength has always been implied to be genetic, at least in part, since ANH. And moral fiber...well Luke and Obi-Wan always seemed like upstanding citizens with natural instincts on what the right thing was...so I'm not sure how they earned that either. That's just plain incorrect. Art is self-expression, entertainment is an industry. There are absolutely directors who lean towards the artsy fartsy, and they're recognized as outliers and their work is only considered art in the absolute best - or weirdest - cases, and even then only by the people who love them. Disney had the sequel trilogy made to make money off a franchise, not because Rian and J.J. Abrams had little Reys and Holdos bursting out of their hearts that they were just dying to share with the world. The sequels are products of the entertainment industry, not the artistic community. Calling them art and saying that they're above objective criticism is a cop out. Not that I don't try to use that as a defense every time I make a mistake at work too. And you're absolutely inventing and making things up to cover for the trilogy, from scenes that aren't actually there to worldbuilding that isn't actually in the movies or even the books to character developments that we see no evidence of on-screen. And as I keep saying, it's great that you can use your imagination to enhance something you already love. I do it all the time too. It just doesn't change anything about the movies themselves. I don't think you're lying, and I didn't say you were. I completely get it. I said that that's just very much what it looks and sounds like to people who saw the exact same movies you did and funnily enough didn't see any of the extra material you're personally adding to make them seem more consistent. As for earned Force power and moral fiber. Tell me, do you just not value training or practice or experience? Because Obi-Wan dedicated his life to perfecting his physical abilities, studying ethics, philosophy and rationality, actively expanding his relationship with the Force and serving peace and stability in the galaxy, giving up his freedom in exchange for discipline. Even at his very youngest and weakest in the movies he had already given almost two decades of his existence entirely to becoming the best and kindest and most skilled Jedi that he possibly could under the guidance of the wisest people in existence. That's called sacrifice and investment, and it's the sort of thing that justifies you having earned something. Luke started out as a nice guy too, yes, but he also went through some grueling training under the best teacher in the galaxy, and went through plenty of loss and suffering that he had to work through before he could be considered mature enough to be "good". And unlike Rey he was actually raised by good and sensible people who tried to teach him solidarity and right from wrong. His virtues can be attributed directly to things we know happened to him or that we see happening to him in the movies. And he doesn't even do anything that crazy with the Force. Rey, meanwhile, grows up in a harsh and cutthroat environment with no friends and nobody looking out for her. Any human being under those circumstances would become self-interested and cynical and wary of strangers by necessity, but not Rey. Rey is tough and determined and completely resigned to having to look out for herself... and also perfectly altruistic, trusting, open and happy to help anyone she meets, even droids. She should have been a wreck of a human being who would have needed some serious demonstrations of friendship to start trusting anyone. But instead the movies make her a perfectly pure and kindhearted person from the get-go for no reason and with nothing even resembling rationale. And anyone who understands that moral sensitivity doesn't come out of literally nowhere would find it completely implausible. In essence, the writer has just given her the purest heart in the galaxy for free with no strings attached and no attempt to explain how she developed into that impossibly good person. By comparison Anakin only spent some of his formative years on Tatooine, his good nature is shown to be a direct result of his mother's kind and generous spirit, and even then he's a pretty messed up kid whose issues only exacerbate as he grows older. And all his skills are demonstrated as having been his actual duties as a slave for years with his demonstrably bright mind enhanced with his extraordinary force sensitivity expanding his intuition. In the same way, Rey doesn't need to train or practice or anything of the sort to use the Force better than anyone else we've ever seen. She mostly doesn't even need to expend real effort to do it like everyone else does, even the ones with the most powerful connection. It just sort of happens because she wants it to. Her potency in the force is a complete freebie, with none of the investment anyone else would have had to make to use it proficiently, let alone expertly, let alone masterfully, let alone as easily as breathing. Her pure heart and strength in the force are just given to her with nothing whatsoever to justify them either from her or the writers. So obviously us mere mortals who actually have to work to become good at things and don't often turn out to have secret powers lying around ready for use, and only become good people through consistent good influence and painful lessons, tend to find all that a mite unrelatable.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 12, 2020 5:09:53 GMT
... Rey, meanwhile, grows up in a harsh and cutthroat environment with no friends and nobody looking out for her. Any human being under those circumstances would become self-interested and cynical and wary of strangers by necessity, but not Rey. Rey is tough and determined and completely resigned to having to look out for herself... and also perfectly altruistic, trusting, open and happy to help anyone she meets, even droids. She should have been a wreck of a human being who would have needed some serious demonstrations of friendship to start trusting anyone. But instead the movies make her a perfectly pure and kindhearted person from the get-go for no reason and with nothing even resembling rationale. And anyone who understands that moral sensitivity doesn't come out of literally nowhere would find it completely implausible. In essence, the writer has just given her the purest heart in the galaxy for free with no strings attached and no attempt to explain how she developed into that impossibly good person. ... So... even the basic premise of a genuinely good person despite her environment, you require backstory to accept? I wouldn't mind it, but... uh... no, not necessary.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 12, 2020 6:35:50 GMT
Anyone else see these episodes in Clone Wars and can attest to whether the prophecy was already fulfilled on this mission to Mortis? starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_MortisP.S. Paid $2 for the first episode on GooglePlay movies, and - not bad. I don't know know about fulfilling the prophecy. But those were some of my favorite episodes in the series. I think that was the first season they changed the art style to make it look a little less kiddie. But I enjoyed the entire arc from that part of the series. It's also when Ahsoka started going from being everyone's punching bag to one of their favorite characters. A way more believable character than Rey that's for sure.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 12, 2020 6:47:25 GMT
So... even the basic premise of a genuinely good person despite her environment you require backstory accept? Wouldn't mind it, but... uh... no. Not just a "genuinely good person", please pay attention. The best and purest young woman imaginable. Who would save a robot from "slavery" and be shocked that it would feel indebted or attached to her for it, and would refuse to sell it for a small fortune in food even though she'd been living in squalor for her entire life, and would endanger herself defending it. Because to her it's a person. Imagine a sweet young woman who would defend the rights of a toaster ...having grown up in the scorching desert, scrapping war-machines for gruel, surrounded by cynical and selfish assholes looking to screw her over at every turn without a single friend or ally to show her that there's anything or anyone in the universe worth honoring. Yeah, no. That's not right. It's not just that there's no backstory for her goodness, the movie actually goes out of its way to frame her as having been alone and unable to count on anyone else for some fifteen years. And none of the subsequent movies contradict this in the slightest. I'm not saying that this is specifically what breaks the trilogy or anything, but it's just another thing on top of the pile of things that make absolutely no sense without more context and which the writing doesn't give a damn about trying to justify. Finn's backstory makes even less sense and has even more weird implications that contradict everything and are never explored properly. As I said, Abrams is just lazy at worldbuilding and character development. "This young woman is poor and downtrodden, and also totally fierce and independent. Also she's perfect in every conceivable way. That's all there is to it. This guy is a soldier trained from birth. Also he has a weak stomach and violence makes him rethink his life, and the infrastructure of his dogmatic military is strategically wishy-washy with recruits who show nonconformity. Also he's enthusiastic about committing extreme violence to his fellow soldiers. Also he's going to defend the first woman he meets with his life. That's all there is to it."
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Post by smilesja on Feb 12, 2020 7:22:12 GMT
And people say Anakin's childhood slavery was unrealistic. How come Rey gets a pass?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2020 7:24:22 GMT
In my experience the only people who try and divide art and entertainment are trying to raise one up for hoity toity reasons. There is little practical difference between the two concepts in my mind. And I don't think argumentum ad populum is an effective tactic, especially in entertainment. I don't give two hoots for the popular opinion especially considering some areas of the net the praise and adoration are quite universal. And that is the big problem. You think I'm inventing things, making things up...now lying. Well these are my genuine impressions from these movies and scenes I've referenced, quoted, even posted here. But because your interpretation is different...they don't exist. Now your takes might even be 'right', but that does not change the fact that my interpretation also has support. So how does one earn moral fiber and strength in the Force? Because Force strength has always been implied to be genetic, at least in part, since ANH. And moral fiber...well Luke and Obi-Wan always seemed like upstanding citizens with natural instincts on what the right thing was...so I'm not sure how they earned that either. That's just plain incorrect. Art is self-expression, entertainment is an industry. There are absolutely directors who lean towards the artsy fartsy, and they're recognized as outliers and their work is only considered art in the absolute best - or weirdest - cases, and even then only by the people who love them. Disney had the sequel trilogy made to make money off a franchise, not because Rian and J.J. Abrams had little Reys and Holdos bursting out of their hearts that they were just dying to share with the world. The sequels are products of the entertainment industry, not the artistic community. Calling them art and saying that they're above objective criticism is a cop out. Not that I don't try to use that as a defense every time I make a mistake at work too. And you're absolutely inventing and making things up to cover for the trilogy, from scenes that aren't actually there to worldbuilding that isn't actually in the movies or even the books to character developments that we see no evidence of on-screen. And as I keep saying, it's great that you can use your imagination to enhance something you already love. I do it all the time too. It just doesn't change anything about the movies themselves. I don't think you're lying, and I didn't say you were. I completely get it. I said that that's just very much what it looks and sounds like to people who saw the exact same movies you did and funnily enough didn't see any of the extra material you're personally adding to make them seem more consistent. As for earned Force power and moral fiber. Tell me, do you just not value training or practice or experience? Because Obi-Wan dedicated his life to perfecting his physical abilities, studying ethics, philosophy and rationality, actively expanding his relationship with the Force and serving peace and stability in the galaxy, giving up his freedom in exchange for discipline. Even at his very youngest and weakest in the movies he had already given almost two decades of his existence entirely to becoming the best and kindest and most skilled Jedi that he possibly could under the guidance of the wisest people in existence. That's called sacrifice and investment, and it's the sort of thing that justifies you having earned something. Luke started out as a nice guy too, yes, but he also went through some grueling training under the best teacher in the galaxy, and went through plenty of loss and suffering that he had to work through before he could be considered mature enough to be "good". And unlike Rey he was actually raised by good and sensible people who tried to teach him solidarity and right from wrong. His virtues can be attributed directly to things we know happened to him or that we see happening to him in the movies. And he doesn't even do anything that crazy with the Force. Rey, meanwhile, grows up in a harsh and cutthroat environment with no friends and nobody looking out for her. Any human being under those circumstances would become self-interested and cynical and wary of strangers by necessity, but not Rey. Rey is tough and determined and completely resigned to having to look out for herself... and also perfectly altruistic, trusting, open and happy to help anyone she meets, even droids. She should have been a wreck of a human being who would have needed some serious demonstrations of friendship to start trusting anyone. But instead the movies make her a perfectly pure and kindhearted person from the get-go for no reason and with nothing even resembling rationale. And anyone who understands that moral sensitivity doesn't come out of literally nowhere would find it completely implausible. In essence, the writer has just given her the purest heart in the galaxy for free with no strings attached and no attempt to explain how she developed into that impossibly good person. By comparison Anakin only spent some of his formative years on Tatooine, his good nature is shown to be a direct result of his mother's kind and generous spirit, and even then he's a pretty messed up kid whose issues only exacerbate as he grows older. And all his skills are demonstrated as having been his actual duties as a slave for years with his demonstrably bright mind enhanced with his extraordinary force sensitivity expanding his intuition. In the same way, Rey doesn't need to train or practice or anything of the sort to use the Force better than anyone else we've ever seen. She mostly doesn't even need to expend real effort to do it like everyone else does, even the ones with the most powerful connection. It just sort of happens because she wants it to. Her potency in the force is a complete freebie, with none of the investment anyone else would have had to make to use it proficiently, let alone expertly, let alone masterfully, let alone as easily as breathing. Her pure heart and strength in the force are just given to her with nothing whatsoever to justify them either from her or the writers. So obviously us mere mortals who actually have to work to become good at things and don't often turn out to have secret powers lying around ready for use, and only become good people through consistent good influence and painful lessons, tend to find all that a mite unrelatable. ...No my point utimatley is that whether you call it 'art' or 'enertainment' or whether or not you separate the two of them there is no such thing as 'objective standards' in either. To say otherwise seems a little silly to me. I mean this conversation that we have should demonstrate that idea more ably then anything else. Yes I do, of course I do. But I also know of such things as savants and that some people are just more naturally gifted then I am or really could ever be at certain things over another and while those people even need training and refinement to improve their skills...to me Rey has demonstrated this concept to my satisfaction. I mean mayyybbbee TFA showed her gaining her powers a little on the fast side, but they did enough to establish and show her struggling with it for my satisfaction. And keep in mind this whole conversation is purely academic (and slightly fun to me until people start talking about 'objective standards') to me. She could be the literal all powerful 'Jedi goddess' some people claim her to be who could bencpress all of Snoke's guards by herself and take on a fully healthy Kylo Ren one handed it wouldn't really change my opinion of the character (OK maybe a slight exageration but you get the point ) afterall there are plenty of super powered OP characters across fiction which are well regarded by their audiences...some of them are also perfectly moral people... And the second part is the whole reason to it. Because the notion that she is so effortlessly moral that its like breathing for her seems to fly in the face of all three of the movies I just watched with her in them. Sure the Force Awakens may not have been perfect when showing its work...but that is why TLJ and TROS fleshed out her character and expanded on the flaws TFA did give her. Me and Obadiah has gone into this to great detail what we think those are...but she is a good person...she is not pure hearted. She is sometimes jaded and is not quick to trust others or just instantly...based on instinct...make the right choice. She struggles with herself and her own emotional issues working through them over the course of the three movies...and that is why she is releatable to me because her power or lack of power does not make her character...her humanity makes her character. Her emotional issues (some of which I share) makes me think that 'hey maybe I can be a Jedi' or 'maybe I can get over the issues in my life and still become a mega competent bad ass that she did in her last movie'...maybe its possible to get over my sins and do the right thing. This is an incredibly human character, its a shame that so many people seem only to focus on her 'power level' or only the good aspects of her character to see the flaws.
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