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Post by colfoley on Apr 8, 2020 20:03:43 GMT
Well, you know what they say..... "polish a turd, it's still a turd." And I may be in the minority here (and I'm not saying that each of the sequel trilogy films doesn't have their respectie problems- they do) but in spite of those problems, I like them. I don't necessarily agree with the label of "The last of the Skywalker Saga" (as far as I'm concerned the skywalker saga was told with Ep. 1-6, it was a story of essentially the Rise, Fame, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. It began with his life as a young boy, told the story of his adventures and service to the Jedi Order and then his fall from grace as he turned to the Dark side.....only to be redeemed by his son. It concluded with his killing the Emperor- thereby destroying the Sith and fulfilling the prophecy, and finally his death having returned to the Light side). The character ark was told in full, as Vader said "The Circle is now complete." The sequel trilogy (while enjoyable in their own rights) was not needed to complete the over-arching story of the Skywalker family. They (7-9) were completed, as far as I can see, because Disney wanted to continue to tell new adventures with their purchase of Lucasfilm (which is fine). But in my mind that is what they are: New adventures with new characters. They may have some call backs, cameos and threads with the original characters (because hey, why not..? It's fun to do) but the stories could have been told without them because the new trilogies focused on new characters (Rey, Finn, Poe...even Kylo Ren etc). Now (again, this is just my own opinion) I don't think JJ Abrams is necessarily a "good Director". Flashy--yes. Imaginative-- yes. A good collaborator and communicator, yes. A passionate star wars fan himself, sure. And I like all of those qualities about him. But I wouldn't go as far as calling him a 'good director'. One thing is certain, he has gained celebrity and notoriety through his hyped-up creation/direction of things like ALIAS and LOST...But that has merely served to thrust him into the limelight and the center of Hollywood attention because both shows were well received. Yet I don't think that is a qualifier for being a truly 'good Director'. I also don't like his over-use of blinding lights and lens flares as VFX (the opening scenes of the 2009 STAR TREK movie are a great example. That actually gave me a migraine the first time I watched it because the lighting and flares were SO BRIGHT). Even now on blu-ray I have to close my eyes at that part and wait until that scene is near over because the flares, sun spots and blinding lights are just too much. JJ Abrams has the nickname "Mr. Lens Flare" for a reason. And other than Episode 8 (which I enjoy though suffers from pacing problems and its own kind of ADD), I do not like Rian Johnson as a Director. Looper was absolutely stupid. In my mind when I think of someone you would actually call a "good director", two names that immediately come to mind for me are James Cameron and Steven Spielberg. While Episode VII made some interesting points (ie we wondered about Snoke, and Rey's family....Both of which could have been told in very different and creative ways, other than what they ended up being.), Johnson with Ep 8 basically said to JJ (and fans) "Screw your set-up, nuts to your theories, imaginations and what you want. I'm not even touching what has already been laid down in 40 years of Canon by Lucas)...EVERYTHING is going out the window (on a trajectory towards the dumpster?) and I'm just gonna do my own thing. Make it up as a go along for whatever suits the plot.)" And that is exactly what he did. Now, in doing that (ugh fine, he really had to I guess), even Johnson managed to create some interesting teases, some thread points that could have gone somewhere creative if he had someone who actually ran with them. But then JJ comes back for Ep 9 (slaps Johnson in the Daddybags) and dismisses everything he (Johnson) just did, and continues on writing his own story as if none of 8 actually happened. Abrams wrote 9 as a follow-up to his own previous installment, but even then didn't really tie the two odd-numbered films together. Even though Abrams did both 7 and 9, those two films have an incongruity to them and even as book-ends they don't seem to fit. They're like puzzles pieces that don't quite fit together. They look the same, all the holes appear to be the same shape, but no matter how you turn them they just don't fit snugly and seamlessly together. There is still gaps. And for the characters of Rey, Finn and Poe.....It's unfortunate, but much of the gaps (read relationship building) have taken place off-screen and/or in other forms of media.....which for the purpose of building a movie trilogy does not serve well. In short, I feel that while each movie is good on its own...especially because of the change in Directors, the three movies as a whole have wildly different stories that are not connected, they have their own pacing (and pacing problems.....8 was brutally slow in parts, while 9 was frenetic from start to finish) and I feel that if they were going to be made at all, Disney should have had 1 person do all three. Then also, they should have invested in writers who could write a cohesive and coherent story that makes sense and has consistency across all three movies. Tell that to Lucas. He made it very clear that he wanted a 9 Episode saga. And...while we can't be sure what his story would be...one way to do it is the fall of Anakin, the Rise of him and his son...and then their legacy. Which is what the sequels were and needing to be told or not they did a fantastic job on that point. Luke and Leia building a legacy that can stretch into the future long after their deaths against the legacy of the Empire and Palp trying to do the same. It's a curious phenomenon that people take this so personally...even people who like it! Rian Johnson's only job is to tell the best story he feels he can. Sure he may've said screw you to the fan theories (I doubt he was even aware) I realized that 95% of them (including mine) were pure garbage that weren't actually set up by TFA that would've done more harm to the story and fortunately Star Wars was in the hands of competent storytellers. As far as the setup...95% of TFAs plot and character points were expanded upon in TLJ and 99% of TLJs were expanded on or doubled down on by TROS.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 8, 2020 20:19:23 GMT
Luke and Leia building a legacy that can stretch into the future long after their deaths against the legacy of the Empire and Palp trying to do the same. -- ColFey
Yes, I can agree with that point. The more I watch the movies, the more I like them. As I said above, I don't dislike them- I really quite enjoy them all in spite of their respective problems. I still don't necessarily agree that they were needed to complete the Skywalker story, but if they were looking to continue it in a manner of speaking while introducing new characters with which to later perhaps tell new stories, that is fine. And I agree that from a certain point of view, the over-arching theme of the sequels could be as you have stated above. In fact, when explained in that way...I like it. I like that explanation and it totally fits with the goal of the movies.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 8, 2020 20:28:23 GMT
Speaking of fan theories I remembered that when people were pointing out Rey was a Palpatine I remembered that the main reason i didn't agree/ felt uncomfortable by it was the fact it meant 'she was going to be evil'.
Apparently the message for TROS was for me then anyone else.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 8, 2020 20:36:38 GMT
Well, you know what they say..... "polish a turd, it's still a turd." And I may be in the minority here (and I'm not saying that each of the sequel trilogy films doesn't have their respectie problems- they do) but in spite of those problems, I like them. I don't necessarily agree with the label of "The last of the Skywalker Saga" (as far as I'm concerned the skywalker saga was told with Ep. 1-6, it was a story of essentially the Rise, Fame, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. It began with his life as a young boy, told the story of his adventures and service to the Jedi Order and then his fall from grace as he turned to the Dark side.....only to be redeemed by his son. It concluded with his killing the Emperor- thereby destroying the Sith and fulfilling the prophecy, and finally his death having returned to the Light side). The character ark was told in full, as Vader said "The Circle is now complete." The sequel trilogy (while enjoyable in their own rights) was not needed to complete the over-arching story of the Skywalker family. They (7-9) were completed, as far as I can see, because Disney wanted to continue to tell new adventures with their purchase of Lucasfilm (which is fine). But in my mind that is what they are: New adventures with new characters. They may have some call backs, cameos and threads with the original characters (because hey, why not..? It's fun to do) but the stories could have been told without them because the new trilogies focused on new characters (Rey, Finn, Poe...even Kylo Ren etc). Now (again, this is just my own opinion) I don't think JJ Abrams is necessarily a "good Director". Flashy--yes. Imaginative-- yes. A good collaborator and communicator, yes. A passionate star wars fan himself, sure. And I like all of those qualities about him. But I wouldn't go as far as calling him a 'good director'. One thing is certain, he has gained celebrity and notoriety through his hyped-up creation/direction of things like ALIAS and LOST...But that has merely served to thrust him into the limelight and the center of Hollywood attention because both shows were well received. Yet I don't think that is a qualifier for being a truly 'good Director'. I also don't like his over-use of blinding lights and lens flares as VFX (the opening scenes of the 2009 STAR TREK movie are a great example. That actually gave me a migraine the first time I watched it because the lighting and flares were SO BRIGHT). Even now on blu-ray I have to close my eyes at that part and wait until that scene is near over because the flares, sun spots and blinding lights are just too much. JJ Abrams has the nickname "Mr. Lens Flare" for a reason. And other than Episode 8 (which I enjoy though suffers from pacing problems and its own kind of ADD), I do not like Rian Johnson as a Director. Looper was absolutely stupid. In my mind when I think of someone you would actually call a "good director", two names that immediately come to mind for me are James Cameron and Steven Spielberg. While Episode VII made some interesting points (ie we wondered about Snoke, and Rey's family....Both of which could have been told in very different and creative ways, other than what they ended up being.), Johnson with Ep 8 basically said to JJ (and fans) "Screw your set-up, nuts to your theories, imaginations and what you want. I'm not even touching what has already been laid down in 40 years of Canon by Lucas)...EVERYTHING is going out the window (on a trajectory towards the dumpster?) and I'm just gonna do my own thing. Make it up as a go along for whatever suits the plot.)" And that is exactly what he did. Now, in doing that (ugh fine, he really had to I guess), even Johnson managed to create some interesting teases, some thread points that could have gone somewhere creative if he had someone who actually ran with them. But then JJ comes back for Ep 9 (slaps Johnson in the Daddybags) and dismisses everything he (Johnson) just did, and continues on writing his own story as if none of 8 actually happened. Abrams wrote 9 as a follow-up to his own previous installment, but even then didn't really tie the two odd-numbered films together. Even though Abrams did both 7 and 9, those two films have an incongruity to them and even as book-ends they don't seem to fit. They're like puzzles pieces that don't quite fit together. They look the same, all the holes appear to be the same shape, but no matter how you turn them they just don't fit snugly and seamlessly together. There is still gaps. And for the characters of Rey, Finn and Poe.....It's unfortunate, but much of the gaps (read relationship building) have taken place off-screen and/or in other forms of media.....which for the purpose of building a movie trilogy does not serve well. In short, I feel that while each movie is good on its own...especially because of the change in Directors, the three movies as a whole have wildly different stories that are not connected, they have their own pacing (and pacing problems.....8 was brutally slow in parts, while 9 was frenetic from start to finish) and I feel that if they were going to be made at all, Disney should have had 1 person do all three. Then also, they should have invested in writers who could write a cohesive and coherent story that makes sense and has consistency across all three movies. Tell that to Lucas. He made it very clear that he wanted a 9 Episode saga. And...while we can't be sure what his story would be...one way to do it is the fall of Anakin, the Rise of him and his son...and then their legacy. Which is what the sequels were and needing to be told or not they did a fantastic job on that point. Luke and Leia building a legacy that can stretch into the future long after their deaths against the legacy of the Empire and Palp trying to do the same. It's a curious phenomenon that people take this so personally...even people who like it! Rian Johnson's only job is to tell the best story he feels he can. Sure he may've said screw you to the fan theories (I doubt he was even aware) I realized that 95% of them (including mine) were pure garbage that weren't actually set up by TFA that would've done more harm to the story and fortunately Star Wars was in the hands of competent storytellers. As far as the setup...95% of TFAs plot and character points were expanded upon in TLJ and 99% of TLJs were expanded on or doubled down on by TROS. What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 8, 2020 22:17:40 GMT
Tell that to Lucas. He made it very clear that he wanted a 9 Episode saga. And...while we can't be sure what his story would be...one way to do it is the fall of Anakin, the Rise of him and his son...and then their legacy. Which is what the sequels were and needing to be told or not they did a fantastic job on that point. Luke and Leia building a legacy that can stretch into the future long after their deaths against the legacy of the Empire and Palp trying to do the same. It's a curious phenomenon that people take this so personally...even people who like it! Rian Johnson's only job is to tell the best story he feels he can. Sure he may've said screw you to the fan theories (I doubt he was even aware) I realized that 95% of them (including mine) were pure garbage that weren't actually set up by TFA that would've done more harm to the story and fortunately Star Wars was in the hands of competent storytellers. As far as the setup...95% of TFAs plot and character points were expanded upon in TLJ and 99% of TLJs were expanded on or doubled down on by TROS. What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Part of my reason for not considering the new Disney Trilogy as part of The Skywalker Saga (which in my mind, as previously said is 1-6) is because I feel (and this is part of what I don't like about JJ: as a few others have stated on here, he is unoriginal in his plot ideas.) He brought back Emperor Palpatine as the 'Big Bad' and made him even more the 'over arching Big Bad who was pulling the strings all along (albeit off-screen until 9)....That to me said "lazy writing". I mean, at least with Johnson saying that Rey was a 'nobody' he was bucking the concept that to do important things, you have to be from an important family line. This idealistic hold that is tied to the Skywalker family-- it's like saying that only people from that family line are important and can do important things. Or in the real-world, like saying only kids from rich families whose parents are CEOs, Neurosurgeons and high-profile lawyers can in turn make something of themselves. But instead not everyone comes from a family of doctors, lawyers, artists, musicians...and yet there have been many people who have gone on to be successful in their own way and in their own right. I liked that, because it showed that to be a strong character you don't necessarily have to be from a long, distinguished lineage of Galactic Hereos, but you can make your own way. You can be seemingly a nobody, from nowhere, and yet still rise above to accomplish great things. Also, in bringing the Emperor back and cooking up some half-baked reason for how and why he came back to life, JJ has cheapened Anakin's sacrifice and the work of the Rebel Alliance in the OT and particularly in ROTJ and lessened Anakin's sacrifice to save his son. What was the point of Darth Vader/Anakin killing the Emperor and losing his own life in the process if he is just going to be resurrected some years down the line? Having said that, I don't quite agree with what Johnson did to the OT characters. I can certainly see Mark Hamill's original stance and point of view about Luke Skywalker "what have you done to my Luke Skywalker? He isn't the character I created. Why can't Luke continue to have adventures? The character on this script is not at all like the one I brought to life....." (or something to that effect).....However, speaking realistically, if audiences were going to continue to see movies, and Film makers make and shoot movies (set in plot after ROTJ, Luke's continuing adventures as a Jedi Knight) they should have been filmed throughout the mid to late 1980s and into the 1990s when all the OT actors were still reasonably aged and able to do so. However, I suppose that since 30+ years have passed and people do age, when Johnson wrote TLJ and wanted to include the character of Skywalker with Hamill in mind, he had to do something with the character that would be logical given Hamill' real-world age. Yet he understandably wanted to do something with the character that was not only new and fresh, taken in a direction that the character had never been before, or one that might not be expected. I don't know, these are just my feelings on the matter and of various points that others have brought up. But whether the movies are 'good' or not is all subjective and the debate is largely an academic one. Everyone here on the BSN can come up with countless reasons why they like the sequels or prequels, or why they don't. It's he-said, she-said, they said....and it all becomes very circular. Fact of the matter is, it is what it is. The movies are what they are. We can like them, love them, hate them or be indifferent about them. In the end, it's all a cow's opinion. For me, I have reasons why I enjoy them, reasons why I don't like them (or things I don't like about them), reasons for what I think could have been done instead....But none of that really matters. In the end, they are what they are: Movies made for the purposes of entertainment. And yes, the franchise of STAR WARS means so much to so many people all around the world (and one could create a lengthy Discussion thread on this very topic), but the way I look at it, for everything that has been released EU books/comics, video games, toys, movies, cartoons, TV Series.... I mean you name it, it's out there. The magic of STAR WARS is such that it has spawned the continuing creation of all sorts of things that people all over the world can relate to and enjoy and even find a common ground on. That is what is important. That is what we should celebrate.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 8, 2020 22:25:04 GMT
What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Part of my reason for not considering the new Disney Trilogy as part of The Skywalker Saga (which in my mind, as previously said is 1-6) is because I feel (and this is part of what I don't like about JJ: as a few others have stated on here, he is unoriginal in his plot ideas.) He brought back Emperor Palpatine as the 'Big Bad' and made him even more the 'over arching Big Bad who was pulling the strings all along (albeit off-screen until 9)....That to me said "lazy writing". I mean, at least with Johnson saying that Rey was a 'nobody' he was bucking the concept that to do important things, you have to be from an important family line. This idealistic hold that is tied to the Skywalker family-- it's like saying that only people from that family line are important and can do important things. Or in the real-world, like saying only kids from rich families whose parents are CEOs, Neurosurgeons and high-profile lawyers can in turn make something of themselves. But instead not everyone comes from a family of doctors, lawyers, artists, musicians...and yet there have been many people who have gone on to be successful in their own way and in their own right. I liked that, because it showed that to be a strong character you don't necessarily have to be from a long, distinguished lineage of Galactic Hereos, but you can make your own way. You can be seemingly a nobody, from nowhere, and yet still rise above to accomplish great things. Also, in bringing the Emperor back and cooking up some half-baked reason for how and why he came back to life, JJ has cheapened Anakin's sacrifice and the work of the Rebel Alliance in the OT and particularly in ROTJ and lessened Anakin's sacrifice to save his son. What was the point of Darth Vader/Anakin killing the Emperor and losing his own life in the process if he is just going to be resurrected some years down the line? If Johnson wanted to do a movie about someone who started out as "nobody" going on to accomplish great things in the Star Wars universe, that's fine. Heck the EU was full of them. In fact, Han Solo himself is one such example. But when you're making an entry into THE SKYWALKER SAGA, it should probably be about SKYWALKERS doing important things... Rather than moping on an island drinking space manatee milk straight from the tap.
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Post by masterwarderz on Apr 8, 2020 22:33:56 GMT
What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Also, in bringing the Emperor back and cooking up some half-baked reason for how and why he came back to life, JJ has cheapened Anakin's sacrifice and the work of the Rebel Alliance in the OT and particularly in ROTJ and lessened Anakin's sacrifice to save his son. What was the point of Darth Vader/Anakin killing the Emperor and losing his own life in the process if he is just going to be resurrected some years down the line? It was done far better in Dark Empire if you ask me but even then if you didn't care for those comics you could ignore them, this made film and it was worse. .__. The Dark Empire crisis in its totality was a far better story line then what we got with this trilogy even though if you squint at the disjointed mess of a plot it vaguely resembles it, namely with the New Republic on the rise, the rapidly fading Galactic Empire which has dissolved into warring confederations warlord states, Luke's Jedi Academy is only now just truly getting off its feet with just a few on and off again students making up its membership and suddenly a massive imperial fleet blitzs out from the deep galactic core and starts rapidly taking back old Imperial territory completely catching the New Republic off guard and after a bit of investigation they uncover that its a cloned Palpatine directing this reformation of the Empire into his Dark Empire. Luke goes to Byss, the new Imperial Capital and confronts the Empeor(again) and gets utterly trounced by him(again) and comes to the realization that he has no understanding of the Emperor's nature and power despite his own abilities and mastery of them having grown considerably over the prior half decade. Ultimately coming to the conclusion that he could only defeat the Emperor by understanding him and by his own volition willingly submitting Palpatine and becoming his Sith apprentice. Just this in my opinion would have made a better film then anything witnessed in 7-9
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Post by masterwarderz on Apr 8, 2020 22:35:59 GMT
Part of my reason for not considering the new Disney Trilogy as part of The Skywalker Saga (which in my mind, as previously said is 1-6) is because I feel (and this is part of what I don't like about JJ: as a few others have stated on here, he is unoriginal in his plot ideas.) He brought back Emperor Palpatine as the 'Big Bad' and made him even more the 'over arching Big Bad who was pulling the strings all along (albeit off-screen until 9)....That to me said "lazy writing". I mean, at least with Johnson saying that Rey was a 'nobody' he was bucking the concept that to do important things, you have to be from an important family line. This idealistic hold that is tied to the Skywalker family-- it's like saying that only people from that family line are important and can do important things. Or in the real-world, like saying only kids from rich families whose parents are CEOs, Neurosurgeons and high-profile lawyers can in turn make something of themselves. But instead not everyone comes from a family of doctors, lawyers, artists, musicians...and yet there have been many people who have gone on to be successful in their own way and in their own right. I liked that, because it showed that to be a strong character you don't necessarily have to be from a long, distinguished lineage of Galactic Hereos, but you can make your own way. You can be seemingly a nobody, from nowhere, and yet still rise above to accomplish great things. Also, in bringing the Emperor back and cooking up some half-baked reason for how and why he came back to life, JJ has cheapened Anakin's sacrifice and the work of the Rebel Alliance in the OT and particularly in ROTJ and lessened Anakin's sacrifice to save his son. What was the point of Darth Vader/Anakin killing the Emperor and losing his own life in the process if he is just going to be resurrected some years down the line? If Johnson wanted to do a movie about someone who started out as "nobody" going on to accomplish great things in the Star Wars universe, that's fine. Heck the EU was full of them. In fact, Han Solo himself is one such example. But when you're making an entry into THE SKYWALKER SAGA, it should probably be about SKYWALKERS doing important things... Rather than moping on an island drinking space manatee milk straight from the tap. Erm inaccurate dude. Han Solo is related to several very important people, Solo the Black being obviously notable. I find your mention of the EU but using Han as an example relatively amusing given that this shit was dropped in: The Courtship of Princess Leia Someone obviously needs to refresh themselves on...
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 8, 2020 23:01:49 GMT
Also, in bringing the Emperor back and cooking up some half-baked reason for how and why he came back to life, JJ has cheapened Anakin's sacrifice and the work of the Rebel Alliance in the OT and particularly in ROTJ and lessened Anakin's sacrifice to save his son. What was the point of Darth Vader/Anakin killing the Emperor and losing his own life in the process if he is just going to be resurrected some years down the line? It was done far better in Dark Empire if you ask me but even then if you didn't care for those comics you could ignore them, this made film and it was worse. .__. The Dark Empire crisis in its totality was a far better story line then what we got with this trilogy even though if you squint at the disjointed mess of a plot it vaguely resembles it, namely with the New Republic on the rise, the rapidly fading Galactic Empire which has dissolved into warring confederations warlord states, Luke's Jedi Academy is only now just truly getting off its feet with just a few on and off again students making up its membership and suddenly a massive imperial fleet blitzs out from the deep galactic core and starts rapidly taking back old Imperial territory completely catching the New Republic off guard and after a bit of investigation they uncover that its a cloned Palpatine directing this reformation of the Empire into his Dark Empire. Luke goes to Byss, the new Imperial Capital and confronts the Empeor(again) and gets utterly trounced by him(again) and comes to the realization that he has no understanding of the Emperor's nature and power despite his own abilities and mastery of them having grown considerably over the prior half decade. Ultimately coming to the conclusion that he could only defeat the Emperor by understanding him and by his own volition willingly submitting Palpatine and becoming his Sith apprentice. Just this in my opinion would have made a better film then anything witnessed in 7-9 I don't disagree with any of that. As a kid I collected devoured every single one of the EU books from The Truce at Bakura, the X-Wing series, The Jedi Academy series, The Thrawn Trilogy......all of them, ending with the Corellian Trilogy and The Hand of Thrawn Duology (all published between January of 1994 and September 1st 1998. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Legends_booksThe EU has some amazing stories, and surely quite a few could have made for better story telling than what we got. I don't disagree at all. However, we got what we got. We don't all have to like it....But let's not argue is all I'm saying.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 8, 2020 23:11:12 GMT
Tell that to Lucas. He made it very clear that he wanted a 9 Episode saga. And...while we can't be sure what his story would be...one way to do it is the fall of Anakin, the Rise of him and his son...and then their legacy. Which is what the sequels were and needing to be told or not they did a fantastic job on that point. Luke and Leia building a legacy that can stretch into the future long after their deaths against the legacy of the Empire and Palp trying to do the same. It's a curious phenomenon that people take this so personally...even people who like it! Rian Johnson's only job is to tell the best story he feels he can. Sure he may've said screw you to the fan theories (I doubt he was even aware) I realized that 95% of them (including mine) were pure garbage that weren't actually set up by TFA that would've done more harm to the story and fortunately Star Wars was in the hands of competent storytellers. As far as the setup...95% of TFAs plot and character points were expanded upon in TLJ and 99% of TLJs were expanded on or doubled down on by TROS. What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT, and to some extent the prequels, loomed large over 7-9. Even with the characters on screen having to deal with the same cycle: All the relics and skeletons from all the old wars which were littering the landscape throughout Episodes 7 and 9. The First Order being the 'legacy' of the Empire. Luke musing on the legacy of the Jedi (and by some extension Palpatine). Rey and Kylo Ren fighting over the Skywalker saber in Snoke's throne room. Rey being in Palpatine's throne room with the same eerie music at it and her giving the throne a very freaked out look. Rey and Kylo Ren fighting in the ruins of the Death Star... Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the SKywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common, both on the surface level and more in general. But... Well its just funny now that I have been thinking about it that in Harry's case him being the super chosen one...how Rowling mitigated that damage by making him utterly incompetent at everything he did and essentially was carried through the 7 books by everyone else. He wasn't very good at magic...and he should've been. It always annoyed me that this chosen one who was training to be a wizard was basically a bumbling bafoon. Meanwhile Rey's extreme competence just does not bother me that much either...certainly not as much as Harry's lakck of skills did.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 8, 2020 23:13:22 GMT
If Johnson wanted to do a movie about someone who started out as "nobody" going on to accomplish great things in the Star Wars universe, that's fine. Heck the EU was full of them. In fact, Han Solo himself is one such example. But when you're making an entry into THE SKYWALKER SAGA, it should probably be about SKYWALKERS doing important things... Rather than moping on an island drinking space manatee milk straight from the tap. Erm inaccurate dude. Han Solo is related to several very important people, Solo the Black being obviously notable. I find your mention of the EU but using Han as an example relatively amusing given that this shit was dropped in: The Courtship of Princess Leia Someone obviously needs to refresh themselves on... Love your referal of the EU Books as the "sacred texts" (memed above so perfectly). Nicely done! Even if Disney was going to ignore them, I don't see why they had to so blatantly disavow them and even go as far as re-labeling them as "LEGENDS". In a sense, that is an insult to all of those authors whose work was given the *Seal of Approval* from Lucas himself. I remember reading about that.....Way back when the first of the EU books was in talks about being published, the amount of leg work that authors had to go through to not only be able to write a story with STAR WARS as part of the title, but to be able to write the continued stories of these characters. Lucas said he would allow it, provided each draft of the various books from the different authors met with his approval. And even then, not every author who wanted to write a STAR WARS novel was approved or given permission. Timothy Zahn, Kevin J. Anderson, Vonda McIntyre, Micahel Stackpole, Kathy Tyres were some of the few and some of the very best to write....But there were many others who were turned down. Why Disney felt they had to do away with that process or in a sense pay disrespect to all the years worth of creative work and collaboration between the various EU authors and Lucasfilm/George Lucas himself, is beyond me. If you didn't want to include it, fine. If what you had in mind for the future of the franchise didn't necessarily include the books previously written.....Fine. But to publicly disavow them as they did, wasn't....wasn't right in my opinion.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 8, 2020 23:24:04 GMT
What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT, and to some extent the prequels, loomed large over 7-9. Even with the characters on screen having to deal with the same cycle: All the relics and skeletons from all the old wars which were littering the landscape throughout Episodes 7 and 9. The First Order being the 'legacy' of the Empire. Luke musing on the legacy of the Jedi (and by some extension Palpatine). Rey and Kylo Ren fighting over the Skywalker saber in Snoke's throne room. Rey being in Palpatine's throne room with the same eerie music at it and her giving the throne a very freaked out look. Rey and Kylo Ren fighting in the ruins of the Death Star... Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the SKywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common, both on the surface level and more in general. But... Well its just funny now that I have been thinking about it that in Harry's case him being the super chosen one...how Rowling mitigated that damage by making him utterly incompetent at everything he did and essentially was carried through the 7 books by everyone else. He wasn't very good at magic...and he should've been. It always annoyed me that this chosen one who was training to be a wizard was basically a bumbling bafoon. Meanwhile Rey's extreme competence just does not bother me that much either...certainly not as much as Harry's lakck of skills did. I can't speak to anything about Harry Potter, you see, because I never read the books or paid any attention to the movies. But I agree with what you've said in your post regaring 7-9 and Rey/Kylo, the Jedi....the Skywalkers....everything. You've made good points.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2020 0:02:02 GMT
Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT, and to some extent the prequels, loomed large over 7-9. Even with the characters on screen having to deal with the same cycle: All the relics and skeletons from all the old wars which were littering the landscape throughout Episodes 7 and 9. The First Order being the 'legacy' of the Empire. Luke musing on the legacy of the Jedi (and by some extension Palpatine). Rey and Kylo Ren fighting over the Skywalker saber in Snoke's throne room. Rey being in Palpatine's throne room with the same eerie music at it and her giving the throne a very freaked out look. Rey and Kylo Ren fighting in the ruins of the Death Star... Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the SKywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common, both on the surface level and more in general. But... Well its just funny now that I have been thinking about it that in Harry's case him being the super chosen one...how Rowling mitigated that damage by making him utterly incompetent at everything he did and essentially was carried through the 7 books by everyone else. He wasn't very good at magic...and he should've been. It always annoyed me that this chosen one who was training to be a wizard was basically a bumbling bafoon. Meanwhile Rey's extreme competence just does not bother me that much either...certainly not as much as Harry's lakck of skills did. I can't speak to anything about Harry Potter, you see, because I never read the books or paid any attention to the movies. But I agree with what you've said in your post regaring 7-9 and Rey/Kylo, the Jedi....the Skywalkers....everything. You've made good points. its actually one of my favorite storytelling...avenues...to explore. The idea of 'the war is over...now what' but imo there are tragically few examples of characters dealing with the legacy of something, that I know of, in this vain. Babylon 5, the sequels, and mmmaaayyybbbeee DA.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 9, 2020 0:43:28 GMT
I can't speak to anything about Harry Potter, you see, because I never read the books or paid any attention to the movies. But I agree with what you've said in your post regaring 7-9 and Rey/Kylo, the Jedi....the Skywalkers....everything. You've made good points. its actually one of my favorite storytelling...avenues...to explore. The idea of 'the war is over...now what' but imo there are tragically few examples of characters dealing with the legacy of something, that I know of, in this vain. Babylon 5, the sequels, and mmmaaayyybbbeee DA. Heir to the Empire...
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2020 0:55:04 GMT
its actually one of my favorite storytelling...avenues...to explore. The idea of 'the war is over...now what' but imo there are tragically few examples of characters dealing with the legacy of something, that I know of, in this vain. Babylon 5, the sequels, and mmmaaayyybbbeee DA. Heir to the Empire... which I haven't read.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 9, 2020 1:03:07 GMT
What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT, and to some extent the prequels, loomed large over 7-9. Even with the characters on screen having to deal with the same cycle: All the relics and skeletons from all the old wars which were littering the landscape throughout Episodes 7 and 9. The First Order being the 'legacy' of the Empire. Luke musing on the legacy of the Jedi (and by some extension Palpatine). Rey and Kylo Ren fighting over the Skywalker saber in Snoke's throne room. Rey being in Palpatine's throne room with the same eerie music at it and her giving the throne a very freaked out look. Rey and Kylo Ren fighting in the ruins of the Death Star... Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the SKywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common, both on the surface level and more in general. But... Well its just funny now that I have been thinking about it that in Harry's case him being the super chosen one...how Rowling mitigated that damage by making him utterly incompetent at everything he did and essentially was carried through the 7 books by everyone else. He wasn't very good at magic...and he should've been. It always annoyed me that this chosen one who was training to be a wizard was basically a bumbling bafoon. Meanwhile Rey's extreme competence just does not bother me that much either...certainly not as much as Harry's lakck of skills did. Relics and skeletons? Try nostalgia bait. What meaning did any of it have? The First Order WAS the Empire, just with the serial numbers filed off so Disney could claim it as their own. Not a legacy. The Skywalker saber. You mean the relic RJ decided to break in their fight, further showing how meaningless it was? Palpatine's Throne room. Again, symbolism over substance No real meaning. Rey and Kylo fighting in the old Death Star Ruins: They also fought on Starkiller Base and Snoke's throne room. Who cares? What makes this one any different besides geography? Oh, Who are Finn and Poe related to? I must have missed that. I honestly can't remember Poe's speech, except for him practically crying about how there were too many bad guys before Lando radioed "On your left" and Doctor Strange sent all the other super heroes to help him. Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter meant FA until the final act of the final movie. Hell, it wasn't even MENTIONED until then. She was "nobody" for the vast majority of the trilogy. Rey knew Jake for all of three days. And that's not being hyperbolic that's a literal fact of the movies. She shared, what a half dozen scenes with Leia in Rise of Palpatine? That's sadly largely the fault of Carrie Fisher's death. But let's face it, there wasn't exactly a lot of bonding going on with them in these movies. I' found her bonding with Han Solo more credible. At least she never beat him up and robbed him. Having to choose between being a good guy or a bad guy is not a legacy. Ugh All the Sith vs all the Jedi was the hokiest hoke that ever hoked . Even knowing it was coming I cringed. That's not "Legacy" that's "When you push a button something awesome has to happen!" Lack of skill is a perfectly good starting place. Watching the protagonist grow and develop is part of the Hero's Journey. Compare Luke the moisture farmer in ANH to Luke the Jedi in RotJ. Rey being super-competent at EVERYTHING left her with nowhere to go. She ended up a static, flat character who simply went though the movies fixing everyone else's problems with a wave of her hand. Sometimes literally. No wonder. No dramatic tension. No risk of failure.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 9, 2020 1:03:56 GMT
Heir to the Empire... which I haven't read. YOu should. You really should. Or maybe not, as it might make you realize how rubbish Disney Wars is and then you'd be sad
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 9, 2020 1:10:21 GMT
What legacy? The New Republic? got knocked over by First Order: Totally Not Empire 2.0 Luke's Jedi academy? Failed. His apprentices all dead or turned to the Dark Side because he tried to murder his nephew over a bad dream. Descendants? Nope. The Skywalkers, Solos, and Amidalas are all dead. The only "Skywalker" is a Palpatine Defeating Palpatine? Been there, done that. Twice. With no indication this can't happen again. Rian Johnson didn't just say "screw you" to theories. He said that to characters. He completely undid all progress made in the first six movies. He actively undermined the entire CONCEPT of legacies. He made everything the original characters built up turn to ash. The Symbolism with Jake Skywalkers "fight" at the end was pretty clear. Everything he built up over the years. All the stories about him, all his accomplishments, were just an illusion. in the end, none of it was real or lasting. Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the Skywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common... However...I agree about the Rey & Harry statement, both were badly written
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2020 1:16:15 GMT
Legacy was very important to the sequels the events of the OT, and to some extent the prequels, loomed large over 7-9. Even with the characters on screen having to deal with the same cycle: All the relics and skeletons from all the old wars which were littering the landscape throughout Episodes 7 and 9. The First Order being the 'legacy' of the Empire. Luke musing on the legacy of the Jedi (and by some extension Palpatine). Rey and Kylo Ren fighting over the Skywalker saber in Snoke's throne room. Rey being in Palpatine's throne room with the same eerie music at it and her giving the throne a very freaked out look. Rey and Kylo Ren fighting in the ruins of the Death Star... Actually I did miss one the fact that all the main characters are pretty much related to legacy characters...hence being their legacy. Poe's speech. Rey being the literal, by blood, legacy for Palpatine thanks to her being the daughter of a failed clone of his. Rey being the spirtual successor of the Skywalker legacy based on her training and being influenced by the last of the SKywalkers. Rey having to choose between these two legacies which one she wants to emulate and carry on. Literally all the Jedi faces all the Sith in the final battle. *** Another random musing on my part Rey and Harry Potter sure do have a lot in common, both on the surface level and more in general. But... Well its just funny now that I have been thinking about it that in Harry's case him being the super chosen one...how Rowling mitigated that damage by making him utterly incompetent at everything he did and essentially was carried through the 7 books by everyone else. He wasn't very good at magic...and he should've been. It always annoyed me that this chosen one who was training to be a wizard was basically a bumbling bafoon. Meanwhile Rey's extreme competence just does not bother me that much either...certainly not as much as Harry's lakck of skills did. Relics and skeletons? Try nostalgia bait. What meaning did any of it have? The First Order WAS the Empire, just with the serial numbers filed off so Disney could claim it as their own. Not a legacy. The Skywalker saber. You mean the relic RJ decided to break in their fight, further showing how meaningless it was? Palpatine's Throne room. Again, symbolism over substance No real meaning. Rey and Kylo fighting in the old Death Star Ruins: They also fought on Starkiller Base and Snoke's throne room. Who cares? What makes this one any different besides geography? Oh, Who are Finn and Poe related to? I must have missed that. I honestly can't remember Poe's speech, except for him practically crying about how there were too many bad guys before Lando radioed "On your left" and Doctor Strange sent all the other super heroes to help him. Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter meant FA until the final act of the final movie. Hell, it wasn't even MENTIONED until then. She was "nobody" for the vast majority of the trilogy. Rey knew Jake for all of three days. And that's not being hyperbolic that's a literal fact of the movies. She shared, what a half dozen scenes with Leia in Rise of Palpatine? That's sadly largely the fault of Carrie Fisher's death. But let's face it, there wasn't exactly a lot of bonding going on with them in these movies. I' found her bonding with Han Solo more credible. At least she never beat him up and robbed him. Having to choose between being a good guy or a bad guy is not a legacy. Ugh All the Sith vs all the Jedi was the hokiest hoke that ever hoked . Even knowing it was coming I cringed. That's not "Legacy" that's "When you push a button something awesome has to happen!" Lack of skill is a perfectly good starting place. Watching the protagonist grow and develop is part of the Hero's Journey. Compare Luke the moisture farmer in ANH to Luke the Jedi in RotJ. Rey being super-competent at EVERYTHING left her with nowhere to go. She ended up a static, flat character who simply went though the movies fixing everyone else's problems with a wave of her hand. Sometimes literally. No wonder. No dramatic tension. No risk of failure. Damn that's a hot take about the Skywalker blade. Goodness sometimes I forget just how much you HATE these movies. Curious you should bring up symbolism and then ignore the symbolism in the scene...fairly obvious symbolism too. She was afraid of becoming Palpatine, of falling to the darkside, of herself and her obvious power so looking at the throne clearly...thanks to Daisy's great facial acting...freaked her out. This geography is clearly important. It just struck me as really...interesting...that the two of them were fighting essentially the same war that their parents and grand parents were fighting for little reason of their own, just because fate said they were on different sides...to exhaustion. Damn forgot about Finn...that does tend to happen. . But I think Poe's uncle is Wedge...he has some relation to Wedge. There are different ways to cut an onion, different ways to 'grow and develop' a character. And besides your constantly complaining about how much the Disney Trilogy rips off the OT...do you really want to see pretty much the exact same story. We have already seen, technically, 2 different characters struggle with the Force and with their own internal power level...time to have a character whose journey is more internally motivated. Oh also another instance of legacy Rey burrying the Skywalker and Leia blades on Tatotine hence burrying, and honoring the past.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 9, 2020 1:32:18 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 9, 2020 1:57:48 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Apr 9, 2020 1:59:23 GMT
Curious you should bring up symbolism and then ignore the symbolism in the scene...fairly obvious symbolism too. She was afraid of becoming Palpatine, of falling to the darkside, of herself and her obvious power so looking at the throne clearly...thanks to Daisy's great facial acting...freaked her out. And I found the threat of her falling to the Dark Side utterly unconvincing. More at risk was the Dark Side falling to her! Thus her in Palpatine's throne room was about as "spooky" as seeing her in any other dark room. Fate? I prefer stories where characters end up I the positions they're in as a result of their own choices. I missed that, but don't really care to verify I wanted to see something that grew organically from the original trilogy. Where the original characters don't experience radical personality changes or inexplicable rollbacks of their characters. If I wanted to see the same story, I suppose I'd be content with JJ Abrams work, since he clearly cribbed off the Dark Empire comics (albeit resulting in a greatly inferior product) media.giphy.com/media/VuzMKCjOVtYwE/giphy.gifAnd LEia has even less connection to Tatooine... [/quote]
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 9, 2020 2:24:11 GMT
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House Targaryen
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Apr 9, 2020 2:30:59 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 9, 2020 2:59:13 GMT
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