Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 8, 2021 20:56:30 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 8, 2021 21:26:16 GMT
Disney has Thrawn (and made Maul good), agree on Mara Jade (though Legends ruined her), Cade sucked so good riddance.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 8, 2021 22:35:23 GMT
Disney has Thrawn (and made Maul good), agree on Mara Jade (though Legends ruined her), Cade sucked so good riddance. Disney has a pale shadow of what Thrawn was. Legends didn't ruin Jade save by having her die at the hands of Jacen Solo (which ruined him far more than her) Cade started out an asshat but grew up over time. He had a most satisfying journey. I should go back and finish the Aniya Solo stories sometime...
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 8, 2021 23:34:31 GMT
Ok, so it boils down to: "They never did it, even though they should have. So there must be some reason why they never did but we (the audience) just never have been told the reason." And that's the concept TLJ ripped apart (quite literally ). Gotcha. I guess that makes sense. Thanks. Eh. They never did it, and the general worldbuilding functions like it's just not a thing, for whatever reason. Saying that they 'should' have is a subjective opinion. As long as they're kept consistent within the universe there's nothing inherently wrong with a story not going with ideas it could have gone with or which would have been more realistic. Every story breaks from reality in some ways. The good ones tend to be the ones that pay attention to when and how they do it and stick to those parameters even when reversing would be convenient in the moment. And Star Wars stuck consistently to the 'no insanely powerful kamikaze hyperspace attacks' rule for seven movies. (Game of Thrones spoilers below) A milder but comparable example would be the dragon slaying ballista thingies (Scorpions?) in the Game of Thrones finale. First they're shown to be dead accurate and basically dragon kryptonite, even though realistically it'd be almost impossible to hit a moving flying target with a machine like that, and it has all sorts of limitations that would make it utterly helpless against anything that might attack it from above, especially with them being clustered in one location. Oh, and they're made of wood, on wooden ships. But whatever, the ballistae work really well against dragons according to the writers. A bit dumb, but that's apparently just how things work. On with the story. But then, in the climactic battle, they're inexplicably suddenly shown to be totally useless for the purposes of shooting down a dragon, exactly as they should be. Only, the writers backtracking and suddenly changing the rules like that means that previous scene no longer makes sense, even though the current events are now closer to what you might originally have expected without prior examples to the contrary. And the members of the audience who are paying actual attention are confused by rather than impressed with the new development no matter how great it looks, and feel cheated because the writers broke their own rules instead of putting in the work and figuring out a way to tell the story they wanted to without suddenly changing things around and hoping we wouldn't notice. And as a consequence, Dany's amazing success is weird and meaningless rather than triumphant. The story being consistent and comprehensive in its rules is one of the keys to people feeling invested in the protagonists' struggles to overcome obstacles, because they can trust that those obstacles won't just magically move in and out of the protagonists' way with no rhyme or reason to it. So when they are overcome it actually means something. A big problem with the Star Wars sequel trilogy is that there's no consistency to what the protagonists are capable of or up against, so when they achieve something it just feels like the story rearranged itself for their benefit, rather than that they managed to succeed on their own merits. You have to remember the size and mass of the ship being used. The Raddus was over three kilometers, the largest ship the good guys ever had, and the Malevolence dwarfs that being nearly five kilometers. For either Death Star, the Rebels didn't have this as an option. In the first Death Star's case, all they had were fighters. In the second Death Star's case, that leads to another problem: shielding. The Rebel fleet had to pull away because the shield around the Death Star was strong enough to repel them, similar to the shield we see the X-Wings explode and bounce off in Rogue One. If they tried ramming it, most likely the explosion would have been on the shield while the Death Star itself was fine. We've seen this kind of thing throughout the saga. Otherwise any hyperspace travel is a death sentence since a grain of dust or a small meteor will cause any ship to e ripped apart during travel. Not to mention the Rebels/Resistance don't exactly have many ships to spare. Yes, but all that mass is made of individual metal components and wires and all sorts of interlinked systems that depend heavily on each other for the whole thing to work, let alone fly, let alone fight. Fly a ship of any size into that at plus-light speed and it'll very spectacularly stop working. I guarantee you. And in a completely physical sense, hitting something big at hyperspeed with an X-wing should be no harder than hitting it with its lasers. Aiming definitely isn't the issue, certainly not at close range like these fights happen in most of the movies. Shields might be an issue, but they're clearly only relevant to that level of power under special circumstances. And yeah, lightspeed skipping has a myriad of issues too, especially the way Poe does it in TRoS.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 9, 2021 0:16:26 GMT
I have less interest in this (SW is dead to me) than would have me read the posts, but I see some words and phrases. So, I'm just jumping in to point out something: Anything going at actual lightspeed, cannot have mass. Onward: Speculating about superlight speeds, warp speed, hyper space, whatever, anything moving faster than the speed of light, CANNOT COMMUNICATE IN ANY WAY with the universe where light speed is the limitation for the propagation of any interaction. Anything going at speeds faster than light, will pass straight through anything, including black holes, without noticing or any effects to either.
While fiction can make up anything, let me remind you that this is not only very logical, but also entirely consistent with how hyper space always used to work in SW, pre-dating that absolute idiot, Rian Johnson.
And just ask yourself the easiest of question: Why wasn't hyper space missiles invented? If it was possible? The problem with stupid ideas - stupid, not because it's unrealistic, but because the story doesn't hang together, things are not consistent -, in movies, is that a large portion of the audience feel insulted and lose immersion. And that is why it's also "objectively bad".
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Mar 9, 2021 14:57:14 GMT
Disney has Thrawn (and made Maul good), agree on Mara Jade (though Legends ruined her), Cade sucked so good riddance. How did the Legends/EU material ruin Mara jade? (]m curious... because I'm not sure I understand your meaning. This is not a jab.) She was created within that material, and Zahn's "Empire Trilogy" is still among the best Star Wars books ever written.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 9, 2021 18:30:53 GMT
I have less interest in this (SW is dead to me) than would have me read the posts, but I see some words and phrases. So, I'm just jumping in to point out something: Anything going at actual lightspeed, cannot have mass. Onward: Speculating about superlight speeds, warp speed, hyper space, whatever, anything moving faster than the speed of light, CANNOT COMMUNICATE IN ANY WAY with the universe where light speed is the limitation for the propagation of any interaction. Anything going at speeds faster than light, will pass straight through anything, including black holes, without noticing or any effects to either. While fiction can make up anything, let me remind you that this is not only very logical, but also entirely consistent with how hyper space always used to work in SW, pre-dating that absolute idiot, Rian Johnson. And just ask yourself the easiest of question: Why wasn't hyper space missiles invented? If it was possible? The problem with stupid ideas - stupid, not because it's unrealistic, but because the story doesn't hang together, things are not consistent -, in movies, is that a large portion of the audience feel insulted and lose immersion. And that is why it's also "objectively bad". But if that is the argument, then Han Solo's statement in Ep4 was already complete and utter BS and the lore already broke itself back then. That was kinda where my question originally came from, actually. ... Not that Star Wars was ever a poster child in hard scifi.
So yea, Noxluxe's argument in terms of the narrative there makes a lot more sense than anything physics based in this context IMO.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 9, 2021 19:00:33 GMT
Disney has Thrawn (and made Maul good), agree on Mara Jade (though Legends ruined her), Cade sucked so good riddance. How did the Legends/EU material ruin Mara jade? (]m curious... because I'm not sure I understand your meaning. This is not a jab.) She was created within that material, and Zahn's "Empire Trilogy" is still among the best Star Wars books ever written. Iakus already hit it. I was mainly referring to her losing and dying to Jacen. Had very little interest in Legends after that (was already waning because a lot of it was getting ridiculous, oh and the whole “every exceptional person is secretly a Jedi”).
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 9, 2021 19:18:50 GMT
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Post by Serza on Mar 9, 2021 21:56:06 GMT
Disney has Thrawn (and made Maul good), agree on Mara Jade (though Legends ruined her), Cade sucked so good riddance.
I wish to remind you that only one episode of the Clone Wars has actually been completely developed under Disney management, and one season has been cut short as a result of that acquisition.
Maul had only cameos in everything else.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 9, 2021 22:02:34 GMT
I don't care how creepy Christopher Hayden acts in Attack of the Clones. This is legitimately one of the most beautiful and epic and romantic pieces of music ever written. It's completely perfect for what they tried to go for with Anakin and Padme. A gentle, irresponsible, all-consuming love that drove a hero mad and gave rise to an empire.
Between this, Duel of the Fates, Anakin's Dark Deeds, Order 66 and Battle of the Heroes you can't deny that John Williams carried a lot of the prequel trilogy.
Was really missing this quality of epic music in the sequels. Rey's theme is cute, it is, but it just doesn't compare.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 9, 2021 22:11:48 GMT
I don't care how creepy Christopher Hayden acts in Attack of the Clones. This is legitimately one of the most beautiful and epic and romantic pieces of music ever written. It's completely perfect for what they tried to go for with Anakin and Padme. A gentle, irresponsible, all-consuming love that drove a hero mad and gave rise to an empire. Between this, Duel of the Fates, Anakin's Dark Deeds, Order 66 and Battle of Heroes you can't deny that John Williams carried a lot of the prequel trilogy. Was really missing this quality of epic music in the sequels. Rey's theme is cute, it is, but it just doesn't compare. The Prequels without question had the best music of the saga. And episode 3 especially, which makes sense since that’s the most emotional of the stories.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 9, 2021 22:45:11 GMT
The Prequels without question had the best music of the saga. And episode 3 especially, which makes sense since that’s the most emotional of the stories. I hadn't thought of that, but it's true. It also really helps that everybody's acting is on-point except for Hayden's. Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Ian McDiamid, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Lee and Liam Neeson are all a joy to behold, and really make the most of the silly dialogue. Ewan Mcgregor and Natalie Portman in particular are amazing in that trilogy, or at least the second and third installments. Aside from both being heartbreakingly gorgeous, of course. I'll never not find the whole 'elected to Queen of a planet at age 14' thing hilarious, but in general she's very believable as a good-hearted, sensible, dignified and intelligent young royal administrator who takes her responsibilities seriously, and unfortunately falls in love with the wrong man... guy... boy... thing. And everybody in the world deserves to grow up with Obi-Wan Kenobi as their brother and mentor. One of Anakin's few likable moments is when he admits that he knows how lucky he was in that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 9, 2021 23:10:00 GMT
The Prequels without question had the best music of the saga. And episode 3 especially, which makes sense since that’s the most emotional of the stories. I hadn't thought of that, but it's true. It also really helps that everybody's acting is on-point except for Hayden's. Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Ian McDiamid, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Lee and Liam Neeson are all a joy to behold, and really make the most of the silly dialogue. Ewan Mcgregor and Natalie Portman in particular are amazing in that trilogy, or at least the second and third installments. Aside from both being utterly gorgeous, of course. I'll never not find the whole 'elected to Queen of a planet at age 14' thing hilarious, but in general she's very believable as a good-hearted, sensible, dignified and intelligent young royal administrator who takes her responsibilities seriously, and unfortunately falls in love with the wrong man... guy... boy... thing. And everybody in the world deserves to grow up with Obi-Wan Kenobi as their brother and mentor. One of Anakin's few likable moments is when he admits that he knows how lucky he was in that. If I recall, there was an interview with John Williams about it and that’s what he said. The story was not only the emotional climax of the prequel story, but also setting the stage for the original trilogy so he gave it his absolute all (more than his usual all at least) when writing the music. I’d even say Hayden’s acting was good in parts. Sure some like the romance was bad (but then Lucas was never good with romances) but in other scenes, particularly with Ian for the Anakin/Palpatine scenes I think he did a fantastic job. Same with him and Ewan in 3 like you said.
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Post by rewindbutton on Mar 10, 2021 10:14:11 GMT
SW Legacy was good and would have made a decent groundwork for updating Star Wars for 20th century. Maybe tone down the Rock Star imagery and ditch Yuuzhan Vong altogether. Just my opinion of course, YMMV.
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Post by rewindbutton on Mar 10, 2021 10:19:18 GMT
This is just hilarious.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2021 14:19:25 GMT
SW Legacy was good and would have made a decent groundwork for updating Star Wars for 20th century. Maybe tone down the Rock Star imagery and ditch Yuuzhan Vong altogether. Just my opinion of course, YMMV.
Yeah it was still coming down from the "darker and edgier" age of late '90s comics (where super heroes dressed in black leather and were all tormented souls) But Cade Skywalker > Emo Ren as far as a Skywalker scion caught between the Dark and the Light Sides. >
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 10, 2021 15:10:13 GMT
If I recall, there was an interview with John Williams about it and that’s what he said. The story was not only the emotional climax of the prequel story, but also setting the stage for the original trilogy so he gave it his absolute all (more than his usual all at least) when writing the music. I’d even say Hayden’s acting was good in parts. Sure some like the romance was bad (but then Lucas was never good with romances) but in other scenes, particularly with Ian for the Anakin/Palpatine scenes I think he did a fantastic job. Same with him and Ewan in 3 like you said. Sounds like he believed a lot in the whole project, that's good to hear. Though that also has some awkward implications for why his sequel trilogy scores lack the same enthusiasm... I don't know. I mean, granted, there's no reason to expect a teenager who grew up a slave robot technician and then spent his adolescent years being trained as a child soldier monk to have anything resembling social skills, but he really feels like the chemical equivalent of a black hole in every conversation he's in in Attack of the Clones, and is only slightly more believable in Revenge of the Sith. But you're right that his scenes with Ian McDiarmid are by far the most natural-seeming. And I disagree about Lucas and the romances, at least in the original trilogy. Han's pushiness and Luke's unconsciously incestual puppy love for Leia might seem shocking or outrageous these days when we've all suddenly agreed that love and relationships are supposed to be these perfectly clean and respectful and orderly concepts and that anything less is a sign of dysfunction or abuse, but neither ever bothered me in the slightest. Put a socially ostracized heterosexual teenage farmboy next to a beautiful and inspiring woman his own age whom he doesn't know is his sister for a few days and he will crush on her, that's just how we work, and it's perfectly healthy and normal behavior even though the situation will obviously turn awkward when the truth comes out. And the way she's played by Carrie Fisher, Leia is far too strong and resilient and emotionally determined a woman to ever feel genuinely trapped or forced by Han's smarmy intrusiveness. I've never felt the least bit worried for her, watching those scenes. She would ground his balls into mush and flatten his perfect crooked nose and tear his ego to shreds ten times over before he got her to do anything she didn't really want to, which in my estimation is the exact reason he feels comfortable laying it on so thick. Always thought that Luke's crush added to his sense of youth and innocence, and that Han and Leia are a beautiful example of two proud and willful and very different people at the mercy of mutual attraction. It may not quite be Romeo and Juliet, but their story is very sweet and romantic and believable, and certainly well-executed to my mind.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2021 20:02:49 GMT
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Post by smilesja on Mar 10, 2021 22:26:14 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 10, 2021 22:39:08 GMT
To go with above:
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 10, 2021 22:45:12 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2021 22:55:44 GMT
Darth Vader has always been a fan favorite. Just saying.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Mar 10, 2021 23:12:51 GMT
Darth Vader has always been a fan favorite. Just saying. With what the Mouse and Kennedy is doing to this franchise, it won't make it to 15 years. 😆
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 10, 2021 23:21:17 GMT
Darth Vader has always been a fan favorite. Just saying. And Clone Wars did a lot to fix Anakin years ago now.
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