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Post by griffith82 on Jul 5, 2018 18:24:18 GMT
As opposed to what? A New Hope A film made 41 years ago and is barely watchable in any version. 2D characters and wooden dialogue?
The Empire Strikes Back a film that is half a swamp movie and the other half is a riff on Rio Bravo and El Dorardo. The Return of the Jedi a bunch of plot contrivances and a climax that is just rehash of the original.
The prequels with more wooden dialogue and CGI
The Force Awakens a remix of A New Hope.
Ah, so you just don't like Star Wars. Fair enough. I've been on board with everything up until TLJ. Loved them for all their(few) flaws. Heck, I liked Solo, too. But what do I know about good Star Wars movies. I've only loved all but one of them. He has a point though. I don’t agree that ANH is unwatchable but they definitely are dated. The prequels were good but all the Star Wars movies had cheesy dialogue that was wooden in some areas. The new ones are better in that regard.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jul 5, 2018 18:25:45 GMT
Millennial misses good old days. This thread has it all. Milllenials be as old as 22-38 tbh.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 5, 2018 18:26:36 GMT
A New Hope is unwatchable, wooden, etc. Noted. I will absolutely not enjoy it when I choose to watch it again, for the 18 millionth time, for the unassailable logic presented without premise. Glad I own the VHS trilogy, where Han shoots Greedo in the balls because he's a badass space pirate. Wooden as fuck. That scene is the only one in the special edition I wish wasn’t changed. It’s better on the 2011 blu ray set.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 18:27:49 GMT
Now this is contradictory, as earlier you claimed that ambiguity is better in movies. Everything DOES NOT need to be explicitly explained. So which is it??? Also, can I please try to guess your top 3 all-time movies based on your posts? Okay, here goes: Am I close? Got issues with women in leading roles?
Am I close? For me I've never seen Twilight and Fifty Shades and have no plans to because they're not for me, now I've seen Ghostbusters and it is just as funny as the original. and a lot of fun.
There has been a löt öf stupid things said in this thread. I mean a löt. Fuck there has been a löt öf stupid things said ön the whöle internet. But saying Ghöstbusters 2016 is just as goöd as the real öne takes the göddamn fucking cake. Yöu götta be tröllin and even if yöu admit yöu aren't I can nöt believe it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 5, 2018 18:29:04 GMT
>>Since when assuming is part of a good story telling? 1. I think it's literally a rule for good story telling, don't waste time explaining something so obvious that it can be assumed. Its, like, more important than the "show don't tell" rule. The whole scene is Luke going to confront Ben, so obviously he knew of the dark in Ben and tried to reach out to him earlier.
>> Also he insists in reaching out to his father who has already killed indiscriminately children (and Sand people and God knows who else) and he'll try to murder his nephew who actually did nothing? 2. Yeah, Luke was probably much less idealistic at this stage of life anyway, and was far more aware of what was at stake. And he didn't try to murder him, the thought crossed his mind for a moment. 3.Obi-Wan and Yoda have a conversation in the novelization of The Revenge of the Sith that each would kill the other if they thought it would end the war, and that Anakin was different because he was more loyal to people than principals. Not sure what Luke saw in Ben, but if it was a dark future, in that moment he chose Ben, and Ben chose himself.1. Not when the assumption is so big as to contradict the whole character building that came before. You jump directly to a conclusion without exposing your arguments first. And Luke is not going to confront Ben, he's pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep and that is outright attempted murder.
2. Why should Luke become less idealistic at that stage of life? What happened to turn him into an impulse driven idiot? Even if you argue that in the end he did not intend to murder Kylo the fact remains that he pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep. That's acting on impulse and is light years away from anything a Jedi ever was. 3. I fail to see the connection so please elaborate. And I suppose you mean more loyal to principles not principals. 1. Luke says he went to Ben to "confront" him, then found him asleep and did his Force view thing and found overwhelming darkness. It is not a character contradiction to assume that if Luke was going to confront Ben, he sensed the darkness beforehand and tried to help him. Isn't that what you've been complaining about Luke NOT doing in the scene? The logical assumption is that he tried to "reach out" before the confrontation, and it wasn't working, hence he went to confront him, and found something much worse 2. People can describe it however they like, but the scene depicts a moment of weakness, a very human failing, with catastrophic results. It doesn't require any greater explanation than that. 3. Merely pointing out that if the original Jedi had sensed enough of a threat from Kylo they might have killed him... maybe even in his sleep.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 5, 2018 18:35:16 GMT
Ah, so you just don't like Star Wars. Fair enough. I've been on board with everything up until TLJ. Loved them for all their(few) flaws. Heck, I liked Solo, too. But what do I know about good Star Wars movies. I've only loved all but one of them. ... all the Star Wars movies had cheesy dialogue that was wooden in some areas. The new ones are better in that regard. "I saved you dummy. That's how we're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love..." "Poe, get your head out of your cock-pit." "Darkness rises, and light to meet it..."
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 5, 2018 18:37:59 GMT
Anyone remembers how Mara Jade goes from Emperor's Hand to Master Jedi? That one, was one hell of a ride to read in the past. If I can be cheesy, the romance between her and Luke was very cool. At some points there was a bit of cliche (again, at some points only) but when you do them correctly it pays off. "Now go fuck off in a cave for thirty years" "Okay..." But in all seriousness, this is the woman who actually took Luke Skywalker to task when she found out he was afraid of caring about people and wanting to withdraw. So of course, Mickey's response is to wipe her from existence...
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docsteely
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Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Jul 5, 2018 18:48:54 GMT
1. Not when the assumption is so big as to contradict the whole character building that came before. You jump directly to a conclusion without exposing your arguments first. And Luke is not going to confront Ben, he's pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep and that is outright attempted murder.
2. Why should Luke become less idealistic at that stage of life? What happened to turn him into an impulse driven idiot? Even if you argue that in the end he did not intend to murder Kylo the fact remains that he pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep. That's acting on impulse and is light years away from anything a Jedi ever was. 3. I fail to see the connection so please elaborate. And I suppose you mean more loyal to principles not principals. 1. Luke says he went to Ben to "confront" him, then found him asleep and did his Force view thing and found overwhelming darkness. It is not a character contradiction to assume that if Luke was going to confront Ben, he sensed the darkness beforehand and tried to help him. Isn't that what you've been complaining about Luke NOT doing in the scene? The logical assumption is that he tried to "reach out" before the confrontation, and it wasn't working, hence he went to confront him, and found something much worse 2. People can describe it however they like, but the scene depicts a moment of weakness, a very human failing, with catastrophic results. It doesn't require any greater explanation than that. 3. Merely pointing out that if the original Jedi has sensed enough of a threat from Kylo they might have killed him... maybe even in his sleep. 1. What I am complaining about is that instead of waking Ben and talking to him, he pulls out his lightsaber to strike him down.
2. But he does not have a moment of weakness when the Emperor tells him to kill his father and complete his journey to the dark side. Why?
3. That is not the case. The discussion between Yoda and Obi-Wan, as far as I see it, is hypothetical and respecting a certain logic, while what Luke does is anything but.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 5, 2018 18:49:07 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Jul 5, 2018 18:51:23 GMT
1. Not when the assumption is so big as to contradict the whole character building that came before. You jump directly to a conclusion without exposing your arguments first. And Luke is not going to confront Ben, he's pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep and that is outright attempted murder.
2. Why should Luke become less idealistic at that stage of life? What happened to turn him into an impulse driven idiot? Even if you argue that in the end he did not intend to murder Kylo the fact remains that he pulled out his lightsaber to strike him in his sleep. That's acting on impulse and is light years away from anything a Jedi ever was. 3. I fail to see the connection so please elaborate. And I suppose you mean more loyal to principles not principals. 1. Luke says he went to Ben to "confront" him, then found him asleep and did his Force view thing and found overwhelming darkness. It is not a character contradiction to assume that if Luke was going to confront Ben, he sensed the darkness beforehand and tried to help him. Isn't that what you've been complaining about Luke NOT doing in the scene? The logical assumption is that he tried to "reach out" before the confrontation, and it wasn't working, hence he went to confront him, and found something much worse 2. People can describe it however they like, but the scene depicts a moment of weakness, a very human failing, with catastrophic results. It doesn't require any greater explanation than that. 3. Merely pointing out that if the original Jedi had sensed enough of a threat from Kylo they might have killed him... maybe even in his sleep. 1. Yeah he reached out to him...WITH A LIGHTSABER! 2. It is a moment of weakness. But it's a weakness Luke has never been shown to have. If anything, Luke would be TOO IDEALISTIC. His self-imposed exile would have been more believeable if he'd tried to keep Kylo from going over to the Dark SIde and failed, rather than having an urge to MURDER HIS NEPHEW IN HIS SLEEP! 3. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack"
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Post by Iakus on Jul 5, 2018 18:52:09 GMT
Anyone remembers how Mara Jade goes from Emperor's Hand to Master Jedi? That one, was one hell of a ride to read in the past. If I can be cheesy, the romance between her and Luke was very cool. At some points there was a bit of cliche (again, at some points only) but when you do them correctly it pays off. "Now go fuck off in a cave for thirty years" "Okay..." But in all seriousness, this is the woman who actually took Luke Skywalker to task when she found out he was afraid of caring about people and wanting to withdraw. So of course, Mickey's response is to wipe her from existence...
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2018 18:53:03 GMT
Anyone remembers how Mara Jade goes from Emperor's Hand to Master Jedi? That one, was one hell of a ride to read in the past. If I can be cheesy, the romance between her and Luke was very cool. At some points there was a bit of cliche (again, at some points only) but when you do them correctly it pays off. "Now go fuck off in a cave for thirty years" "Okay..." But in all seriousness, this is the woman who actually took Luke Skywalker to task when she found out he was afraid of caring about people and wanting to withdraw. So of course, Mickey's response is to wipe her from existence... If only there was a way to wipe Mickey from existence... Hang on! Hey Thanos, mind if I borrow your Gauntlet for a sec.
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Post by warden on Jul 5, 2018 19:11:53 GMT
Anyone remembers how Mara Jade goes from Emperor's Hand to Master Jedi? That one, was one hell of a ride to read in the past. If I can be cheesy, the romance between her and Luke was very cool. At some points there was a bit of cliche (again, at some points only) but when you do them correctly it pays off. "Now go fuck off in a cave for thirty years" "Okay..." But in all seriousness, this is the woman who actually took Luke Skywalker to task when she found out he was afraid of caring about people and wanting to withdraw. So of course, Mickey's response is to wipe her from existence... I moved on, but to be honest it really upsets me and makes me sad how all was thrown to the trash. I mean what finally got my fancy for Star Wars was the EU. You had ancient Sith, like Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and then as you progressed, you find characters like Tulak Hord in the early age of the Sith Empire that was if not the best, one of the best Lightsaber combatants in existence, then you had for example Exar Kun and his insane ritual in Yavin 4, and all the way through Revan, Malak, Bastila, the Exile, Nihilus, Sion, Traya, and I could go nonstop until Luke's era. But oh well, it is what is so, nothing can be done about it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 5, 2018 19:16:37 GMT
1. Luke says he went to Ben to "confront" him, then found him asleep and did his Force view thing and found overwhelming darkness. It is not a character contradiction to assume that if Luke was going to confront Ben, he sensed the darkness beforehand and tried to help him. Isn't that what you've been complaining about Luke NOT doing in the scene? The logical assumption is that he tried to "reach out" before the confrontation, and it wasn't working, hence he went to confront him, and found something much worse 2. People can describe it however they like, but the scene depicts a moment of weakness, a very human failing, with catastrophic results. It doesn't require any greater explanation than that. 3. Merely pointing out that if the original Jedi has sensed enough of a threat from Kylo they might have killed him... maybe even in his sleep. 1. What I am complaining about is that instead of waking Ben and talking to him, he pulls out his lightsaber to strike him down.
2. But he does not have a moment of weakness when the Emperor tells him to kill his father and complete his journey to the dark side. Why?
3. That is not the case. The discussion between Yoda and Obi-Wan, as far as I see it, is hypothetical and respecting a certain logic, while what Luke does is anything but.
Are you actually trying to make an argument that moments of weakness have to be consistent over a 20+ year time period of one character otherwise it makes no sense, and requires an explicit explanation - more of an explanation that Luke basically saying he was momentarily overcome by what he saw in Ben? Agree to disagree.
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N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Jul 5, 2018 19:32:39 GMT
1. What I am complaining about is that instead of waking Ben and talking to him, he pulls out his lightsaber to strike him down.
2. But he does not have a moment of weakness when the Emperor tells him to kill his father and complete his journey to the dark side. Why?
3. That is not the case. The discussion between Yoda and Obi-Wan, as far as I see it, is hypothetical and respecting a certain logic, while what Luke does is anything but.
1. Are you actually trying to make an argument that moments of weakness have to be consistent over a 20+ year time period of one character otherwise it makes no sense, and requires an explicit explanation - more of an explanation that Luke basically saying he was momentarily overcome by what he saw in Ben? 2. Agree to disagree.1. When the character in question is Luke Skywalker who prevails upon the Emperor (Darth Sidious) with an ultimate gesture of submission and by turning his father from the dark side in the process, yes, that is the argument I make.
2. Agreed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 5, 2018 19:42:47 GMT
1. Are you actually trying to make an argument that moments of weakness have to be consistent over a 20+ year time period of one character otherwise it makes no sense, and requires an explicit explanation - more of an explanation that Luke basically saying he was momentarily overcome by what he saw in Ben? 2. Agree to disagree.1. When the character in question is Luke Skywalker who prevails upon the Emperor (Darth Sidious) with an ultimate gesture of submission and by turning his father from the dark side in the process, yes, that is the argument I make.
2. Agreed.
In that moment you mention however Luke still has a moment of weakness. Multiple really. Just saying.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Jul 5, 2018 19:42:55 GMT
As opposed to what? A New Hope A film made 41 years ago and is barely watchable in any version. 2D characters and wooden dialogue?
The Empire Strikes Back a film that is half a swamp movie and the other half is a riff on Rio Bravo and El Dorardo. The Return of the Jedi a bunch of plot contrivances and a climax that is just rehash of the original.
The prequels with more wooden dialogue and CGI
The Force Awakens a remix of A New Hope.
TLJ: the movie for Star Wars fans who hate Star Wars? Quite contrary, we love Star Wars, warts and all. Which is more than can be said about bitter group that hangs out in here.
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Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
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Post by docsteely on Jul 5, 2018 19:48:22 GMT
1. When the character in question is Luke Skywalker who prevails upon the Emperor (Darth Sidious) with an ultimate gesture of submission and by turning his father from the dark side in the process, yes, that is the argument I make.
2. Agreed.
In that moment you mention however Luke still has a moment of weakness. Multiple really. Just saying. True, but at no time does he take his light saber back to strike the Emperor down or even to defend himself. Just saying.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
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Post by docsteely on Jul 5, 2018 19:50:31 GMT
TLJ: the movie for Star Wars fans who hate Star Wars? Quite contrary, we love Star Wars, warts and all. Which is more than can be said about bitter group that hangs out in here. Well, good for you. I hope you'll be able to support by yourselves the SW universe from now on.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 5, 2018 19:52:42 GMT
In that moment you mention however Luke still has a moment of weakness. Multiple really. Just saying. True, but at no time does he take his light saber back to strike the Emperor down or even to defend himself. Just saying. Um, yes he does. That is literally how his fight with Vader starts. Luke falls for the Emperor's taunts and takes his lightsaber to kill the Emperor, to which Vader activates his to block the attack while the Emperor laughs.
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Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
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Post by docsteely on Jul 5, 2018 19:57:17 GMT
True, but at no time does he take his light saber back to strike the Emperor down or even to defend himself. Just saying. Um, yes he does. That is literally how his fight with Vader starts. Luke falls for the Emperor's taunts and takes his lightsaber to kill the Emperor, to which Vader activates his to block the attack while the Emperor laughs. I was referring to the moment after he defeats Vader and throws his lightsaber away. That was the submission.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 5, 2018 19:58:09 GMT
True, but at no time does he take his light saber back to strike the Emperor down or even to defend himself. Just saying. Um, yes he does. That is literally how his fight with Vader starts. Luke falls for the Emperor's taunts and takes his lightsaber to kill the Emperor, to which Vader activates his to block the attack while the Emperor laughs. I’m beginning to wonder if some of these people saw the same movies we did.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jul 5, 2018 19:58:14 GMT
Where were the toddlers when I was playing this in 2001?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 5, 2018 19:58:38 GMT
Um, yes he does. That is literally how his fight with Vader starts. Luke falls for the Emperor's taunts and takes his lightsaber to kill the Emperor, to which Vader activates his to block the attack while the Emperor laughs. I was referring to the moment after he defeats Vader and throws his lightsaber away. That was the submission. Ah, okay. My apologies them. I thought you were referring to the entire sequence of events in the Emperor's chambers.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 5, 2018 20:00:34 GMT
Um, yes he does. That is literally how his fight with Vader starts. Luke falls for the Emperor's taunts and takes his lightsaber to kill the Emperor, to which Vader activates his to block the attack while the Emperor laughs. I’m beginning to wonder if some of these people saw the same movies we did. Apologies I read that wrong as well.
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