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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 22:12:55 GMT
*Walks in to see yet another dozen pages of TLJ arguments* *Sees opportunity to reiterate idea for standalone TLJ thread*
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 6, 2018 22:26:46 GMT
Here's hoping Mr. Iger does something soon to correct this idiocy and puts this franchise back on track...
Like listening to whinny entitled fanboys who don't know what they want in a film (or about anything else) other than they want everything just like 1977 (which isn't going to happen)
Actually, it kind of is. These films (despite the contemporary political bullshit shoe-horned into episode 8) are designed to be TIMELESS. Like much great sci-fi/fantasy, they exist wholly within a universe in & of ITSELF. Some parallels exist, of course. This is necessary to give the audience something to grasp... to relate to. However, putting ham-fisted feminist tropes & political PETA propaganda is not only unecessary, but actually sabotages the audience's experience. The average Star Wars fan wants escapism, i.e. a SPACE OPERA, not a shitty version of Tumblr current events FFS Also, for anyone claiming that the issues listed above aren't plot-holes, this might turn out to be true for some of them. Who knows, perhaps J.J. really does care about the controversy surrounding episode 8, and he has the support of Di$ney. Maybe he will right some these horribly stupid errors made by the people involved with TLJ. I am not very optimistic, I wish I were. But... to say that major voids in the plot concerning Luke, Leia, Ben/Kylo, Snoke, etc are minor is simply false and another pathetic example of cognitive dissonance by people attempting to defend this shit-show for reasons I cannot comprehend.
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Post by correctamundo on Jul 6, 2018 22:40:14 GMT
So if I understand you correctly the first order decided against the power grab in TLJ? Snoke went for light side? Finn jumped back in line? Poe no more stunts? The post you originally quoted went like this "A rewrite that ignores key plotlines from the previous film, the Flanderization of multiple characters, added multiple contradictions to the established lore, and retroactively added plotholes to past films. Rian's script reads more like a standalone film than a direct sequel due to it's number of inconsistencies. "And, you know, it's not exactly obvious why the Republic seems to be gone, why "the Resistance" changed to "the Rebelion" suggesting that the first order is a dominant force in the galaxy, why does the whole rebellion fit in one ship, etc. Those plotlines are major in scale, but then you have all those things that TFA sets up and TLJ ignores/dispenses with like: - Rey's parents - Luke's hallucinogenic lightsaber - Who the fuck is Snoke? - Why's Kylo talking to Vader's helmet and asking him to "show him the vision again"? - What are Knight's of Ren of which Kylo is the mightiest one? - Why Luke disappeared, but previosly left pieces of a map leading to his location all over the galaxy? - Why does R2D2 activate and reveal the last piece in presence of Rey? There are some inconsistencies within TLJ itself: - Poe is getting shit from Leia and Holdo for being rash and taking unnecessary risks, he keeps doing that throughout the movie and then Leia passes leadership onto him anyway - Why is Holdo risking mutiny instead of sharing her plan with everyone (or at least other leaders)? - How did Rey become a Jedi exactly? By doing everything but training as a Jedi? Some more with the previous movies: - force ghosts can interact with the living now? Even strike things with lightnings? - who's Jake Skywalker? etc. Nope, the post i originally answered was Smiles meme. Try harder.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jul 6, 2018 23:22:57 GMT
The post you originally quoted went like this "A rewrite that ignores key plotlines from the previous film, the Flanderization of multiple characters, added multiple contradictions to the established lore, and retroactively added plotholes to past films. Rian's script reads more like a standalone film than a direct sequel due to it's number of inconsistencies. "
And, you know, it's not exactly obvious why the Republic seems to be gone, why "the Resistance" changed to "the Rebelion" suggesting that the first order is a dominant force in the galaxy, why does the whole rebellion fit in one ship, etc.
Those plotlines are major in scale, but then you have all those things that TFA sets up and TLJ ignores/dispenses with like: - Rey's parents - Luke's hallucinogenic lightsaber - Who the fuck is Snoke? - Why's Kylo talking to Vader's helmet and asking him to "show him the vision again"? - What are Knight's of Ren of which Kylo is the mightiest one? - Why Luke disappeared, but previosly left pieces of a map leading to his location all over the galaxy? - Why does R2D2 activate and reveal the last piece in presence of Rey?
There are some inconsistencies within TLJ itself: - Poe is getting shit from Leia and Holdo for being rash and taking unnecessary risks, he keeps doing that throughout the movie and then Leia passes leadership onto him anyway - Why is Holdo risking mutiny instead of sharing her plan with everyone (or at least other leaders)? - How did Rey become a Jedi exactly? By doing everything but training as a Jedi?
Some more with the previous movies: - force ghosts can interact with the living now? Even strike things with lightnings? - who's Jake Skywalker?
etc. I can answer about the Holdo encounters... 1) She quietly told this commander who was just demoted to capt to piss off, cuz she was busy with commmand stuff, etc. 2) Said demoted commander flipped out when he saw the shuttles being fueled, and called her, I think "treasonous"? It was something bad, but basically Poe challenged her authority in front of the whole bridge. Anyway... 3) Said demoted commander explains risky hair-brained scheme executed behind her back, and then threatens and commits mutiny. All things considered she probably could have handled things differently, and just guessing here, her plan's success depended so much on secrecy, she didn't want to spread word of it around, especially to commanders recently demoted for reckless behavior. Yeah, that's pretty much how it went. Their plan was to retreat to a nearby base which isn't something she should be hiding from anyone really, because retreating to a defensible position is the obvious thing to do. It could have been justified by throwing in a single line of dialogue about how she (or Leia) suspects that they might have a mole in their crew. This doesn't happen, instead she pulls rank on Poe, doesn't do anything to calm down her increasingly panicing crew pretty much forcing them to mutiny. Anyway, let's assume she has a good reason to keep her plan a secret, but then why would Leia pass leadership to Poe after he kept making one "reckless" decision after another throughout the whole movie? That was the reason why he got demoted in the first place and he only added to it.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 6, 2018 23:28:31 GMT
Like listening to whinny entitled fanboys who don't know what they want in a film (or about anything else) other than they want everything just like 1977 (which isn't going to happen)
Actually, it kind of is. These films (despite the contemporary political bullshit shoe-horned into episode 8) are designed to be TIMELESS. Like much great sci-fi/fantasy, they exist wholly within a universe in & of ITSELF. Some parallels exist, of course. This is necessary to give the audience something to grasp... to relate to. However, putting ham-fisted feminist tropes & political PETA propaganda is not only unecessary, but actually sabotages the audience's experience. The average Star Wars fan wants escapism, i.e. a SPACE OPERA, not a shitty version of Tumblr current events FFS Also, for anyone claiming that the issues listed above aren't plot-holes, this might turn out to be true for some of them. Who knows, perhaps J.J. really does care about the controversy surrounding episode 8, and he has the support of Di$ney. Maybe he will right some these horribly stupid errors made by the people involved with TLJ. I am not very optimistic, I wish I were. But... to say that major voids in the plot concerning Luke, Leia, Ben/Kylo, Snoke, etc are minor is simply false and another pathetic example of cognitive dissonance by people attempting to defend this shit-show for reasons I cannot comprehend. Please tell me what major voids? The only one I can possibly see is Luke but I disagree. I see how you guys see it differently but I see what he did as being in character.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jul 6, 2018 23:42:39 GMT
The post you originally quoted went like this "A rewrite that ignores key plotlines from the previous film, the Flanderization of multiple characters, added multiple contradictions to the established lore, and retroactively added plotholes to past films. Rian's script reads more like a standalone film than a direct sequel due to it's number of inconsistencies. "And, you know, it's not exactly obvious why the Republic seems to be gone, why "the Resistance" changed to "the Rebelion" suggesting that the first order is a dominant force in the galaxy, why does the whole rebellion fit in one ship, etc. Those plotlines are major in scale, but then you have all those things that TFA sets up and TLJ ignores/dispenses with like: - Rey's parents - Luke's hallucinogenic lightsaber - Who the fuck is Snoke? - Why's Kylo talking to Vader's helmet and asking him to "show him the vision again"? - What are Knight's of Ren of which Kylo is the mightiest one? - Why Luke disappeared, but previosly left pieces of a map leading to his location all over the galaxy? - Why does R2D2 activate and reveal the last piece in presence of Rey? There are some inconsistencies within TLJ itself: - Poe is getting shit from Leia and Holdo for being rash and taking unnecessary risks, he keeps doing that throughout the movie and then Leia passes leadership onto him anyway - Why is Holdo risking mutiny instead of sharing her plan with everyone (or at least other leaders)? - How did Rey become a Jedi exactly? By doing everything but training as a Jedi? Some more with the previous movies: - force ghosts can interact with the living now? Even strike things with lightnings? - who's Jake Skywalker? etc. Those things are minor for the most part and left open for the viewer. Some were explained partly and likely fully in IX. Seriously if you guys need everything explained I’d love to see you watch some classic movies that are purposely left open ended. If those things are minor (pretty much everything set up in TFA, character motivations, basic in-world consistency), then what do you consider major? It's not about "explaining things", half of TFA is related to those plotlines. Those are the reasons why the galaxy looks like it does, why characters act as they do etc. Throwing all of it away makes most of TFA completely irrelevant, because who cares about a set up that has no resolution? Why make a cliffhanger just to later pretend that it never happened? The post you originally quoted went like this "A rewrite that ignores key plotlines from the previous film, the Flanderization of multiple characters, added multiple contradictions to the established lore, and retroactively added plotholes to past films. Rian's script reads more like a standalone film than a direct sequel due to it's number of inconsistencies. "And, you know, it's not exactly obvious why the Republic seems to be gone, why "the Resistance" changed to "the Rebelion" suggesting that the first order is a dominant force in the galaxy, why does the whole rebellion fit in one ship, etc. Those plotlines are major in scale, but then you have all those things that TFA sets up and TLJ ignores/dispenses with like: - Rey's parents - Luke's hallucinogenic lightsaber - Who the fuck is Snoke? - Why's Kylo talking to Vader's helmet and asking him to "show him the vision again"? - What are Knight's of Ren of which Kylo is the mightiest one? - Why Luke disappeared, but previosly left pieces of a map leading to his location all over the galaxy? - Why does R2D2 activate and reveal the last piece in presence of Rey? There are some inconsistencies within TLJ itself: - Poe is getting shit from Leia and Holdo for being rash and taking unnecessary risks, he keeps doing that throughout the movie and then Leia passes leadership onto him anyway - Why is Holdo risking mutiny instead of sharing her plan with everyone (or at least other leaders)? - How did Rey become a Jedi exactly? By doing everything but training as a Jedi? Some more with the previous movies: - force ghosts can interact with the living now? Even strike things with lightnings? - who's Jake Skywalker? etc. Nope, the post i originally answered was Smiles meme. Try harder. Lol.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 0:16:43 GMT
Those things are minor for the most part and left open for the viewer. Some were explained partly and likely fully in IX. Seriously if you guys need everything explained I’d love to see you watch some classic movies that are purposely left open ended. If those things are minor (pretty much everything set up in TFA, character motivations, basic in-world consistency), then what do you consider major? It's not about "explaining things", half of TFA is related to those plotlines. Those are the reasons why the galaxy looks like it does, why characters act as they do etc. Throwing all of it away makes most of TFA completely irrelevant, because who cares about a set up that has no resolution? Why make a cliffhanger just to later pretend that it never happened? Nope, the post i originally answered was Smiles meme. Try harder. Lol. How did TLJ throw that all away? I didn’t get that at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 0:17:57 GMT
If those things are minor (pretty much everything set up in TFA, character motivations, basic in-world consistency), then what do you consider major? It's not about "explaining things", half of TFA is related to those plotlines. Those are the reasons why the galaxy looks like it does, why characters act as they do etc. Throwing all of it away makes most of TFA completely irrelevant, because who cares about a set up that has no resolution? Why make a cliffhanger just to later pretend that it never happened? Lol. How did TLJ throw that all away? I didn’t get that at all. Can you read what he typed?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jul 7, 2018 0:18:19 GMT
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 0:43:38 GMT
How did TLJ throw that all away? I didn’t get that at all. Can you read what he typed? I can. I don’t see it. TLJ built upon TFA but it didn’t explain everything. Neither did Empire btw.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 0:49:11 GMT
Can you read what he typed? I can. I don’t see it. TLJ built upon TFA but it didn’t explain everything. Neither did Empire btw. It explained exactly nothing from TFA to be exact.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 0:52:11 GMT
I can. I don’t see it. TLJ built upon TFA but it didn’t explain everything. Neither did Empire btw. It explained exactly nothing from TFA to be exact. Let’s see, it delved into Rey’s heritage, told us more about what happened to Luke and Ben, delved more into the first order and there’s plenty more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 0:54:37 GMT
It explained exactly nothing from TFA to be exact. Let’s see, it delved into Rey’s heritage, told us more about what happened to Luke and Ben, delved more into the first order and there’s plenty more. Not really because kylo could be lying, the thing with ben and luke was poorly done & explained, explained nothing about the first order's origins... anything else?
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Post by Iakus on Jul 7, 2018 0:55:28 GMT
Let’s see, it delved into Rey’s heritage, told us more about what happened to Luke and Ben, delved more into the first order and there’s plenty more. Not really because kylo could be lying, the thing with ben and luke was poorly done & explained, explained nothing about the first order's origins... anything else? Not to mention what WAS explained was mostly nonsensical.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 0:58:16 GMT
Not really because kylo could be lying, the thing with ben and luke was poorly done & explained, explained nothing about the first order's origins... anything else? Not to mention what WAS explained was mostly nonsensical. It didn't even explain the villain's motivations for acting the way they did. Which is an essential part to SW's...
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 1:00:09 GMT
Let’s see, it delved into Rey’s heritage, told us more about what happened to Luke and Ben, delved more into the first order and there’s plenty more. Not really because kylo could be lying, the thing with ben and luke was poorly done & explained, explained nothing about the first order's origins... anything else?Exactly. I felt like I had been spit on when this scene ended. I kind of prayed that the movie wouldn't reach these lows again... God didn't answer my prayers
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2018 1:03:47 GMT
Not to mention what WAS explained was mostly nonsensical. It didn't even explain the villain's motivations for acting the way they did. Which is an essential part to SW's... I disagree with this. The original movies never explain Palpatine's, Vader's, or even the Empire's motivations for acting the way they did. They were just a Big Bad. It wasn't until the Prequels where it was explored.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 1:06:13 GMT
It didn't even explain the villain's motivations for acting the way they did. Which is an essential part to SW's... I disagree with this. The original movies never explain why Palpatine's, Vader's, or even the Empire's motivations for acting the way they did. They were just a Big Bad. It wasn't until the Prequels where it was explored. If they wanted to be better than the prequels they should've done this at first, which they didn't do at all.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2018 1:09:00 GMT
I disagree with this. The original movies never explain why Palpatine's, Vader's, or even the Empire's motivations for acting the way they did. They were just a Big Bad. It wasn't until the Prequels where it was explored. If they wanted to be better than the prequels they should've done this at first, which they didn't do at all. You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. If we don't get that explored by 2043 then it is not like Star Wars.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 1:10:53 GMT
If they wanted to be better than the prequels they should've done this at first, which they didn't do at all. You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. Yeah okay, fine I get your point. I concede on these grounds (but that just makes them unoriginal if anything)
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 1:13:50 GMT
You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. Yeah okay, fine I get your point. I concede on these grounds (but that just makes them unoriginal if anything) Doesn’t make them bad.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 7, 2018 1:21:03 GMT
If they wanted to be better than the prequels they should've done this at first, which they didn't do at all. You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. If we don't get that explored by 2043 then it is not like Star Wars. At least the First Order does right now have motivations. Well other than Supreme Leader Snoke but it was clear he was just going to be another Palpy so Rian cut him in half.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2018 1:24:21 GMT
I would like them to explore the bad guy's side more, either the Empire or the First Order. We got that a bit with the Sepratists in the Clone Wars series and yeah there are books about the other side, but it would be interesting to have one of the side movies follow a group of Stormtroopers or something, akin to something like the Hand of Judgement from the old EU.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 1:25:23 GMT
You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. If we don't get that explored by 2043 then it is not like Star Wars. At least the First Order does right now have motivations. Uh....care to enlighten us as to what they are??
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2018 1:37:24 GMT
At least the First Order does right now have motivations. Uh....care to enlighten us as to what they are?? End chaos and bring order, stability, and peace to the galaxy. Finish what the Empire started.
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