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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 11:24:23 GMT
You missed my point. You said explaining the villain's motivations is an essential part of Star Wars, and yet the villains of the original movies didn't have their motivations explored until decades later. Before that they were just like the First Order is right now: Space Nazis. I agree they should have explored it more, but not exploring it doesn't go against being Star Wars. If we don't get that explored by 2043 then it is not like Star Wars. And your missing the point that unlike the original films, the new movies had the luxury on building upon a well established foundation. And how did they not do just that?
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jul 7, 2018 12:51:47 GMT
The Separatists in the Clone Wars and Palpatine's rise to power in the aftermath made a lot more sense when the EU novels explained the corruption and inept bureaucracy in the Republic - but I really don't know what the First Order's support is. I think JJ Abrams described them like a radical fundamentalist sect like ISIS. I'd be interested in their logistics, and how they managed to collect all of that ordinance, especially something like Starkiller base. It is pretty ridiculous that they were able to build that without the New Republic or any of their allies discovering it. From what I remember, a lot of the resources the First Order have is due to them basically being a kind of contingency plan if the Empire ever fell. Palpatine put things in place and then they are in hiding for decades building up their strength while the New Republic downsized their military since the galaxy seemed at peace. The only ones seeing the threat being the Resistance. As for Starkiller Base, the First Order didn’t build it but found it in the Unknown Regions.This is all quite a possible scenario I would say... even I fail to see them giving the go ahead in the movies to really explain it. Then again most probably are not there for a documentary -something that actually could watch easily. Palpatine was a master strategist... So I doubt he would do anything without a back up plan & 5 contingency plans for the main and backup plan a piece. Who is to say he didn't plan for the chance that he would be killed... Probably hoped that if had to be in hiding he could control the First Order -didn't count on the Vader returning to being Anakin... Yes I can agree the Starkiller base most likely was built under the order of Palpatine but abandoned -till 1st Order.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 7, 2018 13:40:06 GMT
From what I remember, a lot of the resources the First Order have is due to them basically being a kind of contingency plan if the Empire ever fell. Palpatine put things in place and then they are in hiding for decades building up their strength while the New Republic downsized their military since the galaxy seemed at peace. The only ones seeing the threat being the Resistance. As for Starkiller Base, the First Order didn’t build it but found it in the Unknown Regions. Damn it. I want to debate you, but unlike many other TLJ defenders you seem to be adept in the use of logic & reason Lol, I'll do it then. Palpatine put a plan in place, in case he died. Padawan of Plagueis, wants to live forever, doesn't care about the means... But he puts a contingency plan in place for his Empire, because that's what he really cares about. Yes, this makes loads of sense.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 7, 2018 13:57:30 GMT
The Separatists in the Clone Wars and Palpatine's rise to power in the aftermath made a lot more sense when the EU novels explained the corruption and inept bureaucracy in the Republic - but I really don't know what the First Order's support is. I think JJ Abrams described them like a radical fundamentalist sect like ISIS. I'd be interested in their logistics, and how they managed to collect all of that ordinance, especially something like Starkiller base. It is pretty ridiculous that they were able to build that without the New Republic or any of their allies discovering it. From what I remember, a lot of the resources the First Order have is due to them basically being a kind of contingency plan if the Empire ever fell. Palpatine put things in place and then they are in hiding for decades building up their strength while the New Republic downsized their military since the galaxy seemed at peace. The only ones seeing the threat being the Resistance. As for Starkiller Base, the First Order didn’t build it but found it in the Unknown Regions. Wow, this really does sound a lot like the fall of Iraq and the following insurgency. Did the plan from Palpatine's contingency really envision the First Order, or was that an unintended consequence? *Begins googling wiki articles*
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docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Jul 7, 2018 15:02:02 GMT
Damn it. I want to debate you, but unlike many other TLJ defenders you seem to be adept in the use of logic & reason Lol, I'll do it then. Palpatine put a plan in place, in case he died. Padawan of Plagueis, wants to live forever, doesn't care about the means... But he puts a contingency plan in place for his Empire, because that's what he really cares about. Yes, this makes loads of sense. Where's Plagueis? Who’s Plagueis? Why is Plagueis? P.S. Edited for accuracy reasons
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 16:28:53 GMT
Damn it. I want to debate you, but unlike many other TLJ defenders you seem to be adept in the use of logic & reason Lol, I'll do it then. Palpatine put a plan in place, in case he died. Padawan of Plagueis, wants to live forever, doesn't care about the means... But he puts a contingency plan in place for his Empire, because that's what he really cares about. Yes, this makes loads of sense. Um actually it does. Palpatine was alaways making plans. It’s shown in the prequels and Battlefront II.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 17:01:39 GMT
Lol, I'll do it then. Palpatine put a plan in place, in case he died. Padawan of Plagueis, wants to live forever, doesn't care about the means... But he puts a contingency plan in place for his Empire, because that's what he really cares about. Yes, this makes loads of sense. Where's Plagueis? Who’s Plagueis? Why is Plagueis? P.S. Edited for accuracy reasons I guess it's a Sith Legend...
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Post by docsteely on Jul 7, 2018 17:49:32 GMT
Where's Plagueis? Who’s Plagueis? Why is Plagueis? P.S. Edited for accuracy reasons I guess it's a Sith Legend... Yes, it is a legend, now. I for one liked the theory that he was Snoke...
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 17:52:21 GMT
I guess it's a Sith Legend... Yes, it is a legend, now. I for one liked the theory that he was Snoke... I’ll admit that was one of the few theories I liked.
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N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
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Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
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Post by docsteely on Jul 7, 2018 18:04:22 GMT
Yes, it is a legend, now. I for one liked the theory that he was Snoke... I’ll admit that was one of the few theories I liked. It made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, flushed down the toilet and with nothing to replace it.
Where is Snoke? Who is Snoke? Why is Snoke?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 18:06:50 GMT
I’ll admit that was one of the few theories I liked. It made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, flushed down the toilet and with nothing to replace it.
Where is Snoke? Who is Snoke? Why is Snoke?
But here’s the rub. It was the same with the Emperor. We knew nothing about him till the prequels. Nobody griped then.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 18:08:26 GMT
Yes, it is a legend, now. I for one liked the theory that he was Snoke... I’ll admit that was one of the few theories I liked. It is still possible... “Take what makes you weak and turn it into something that makes you strong.” ― Drew Karpyshyn, Darth Bane: Legacy of Evil Perhaps he WAS a Sith & found the Aneddu holocron...
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Post by docsteely on Jul 7, 2018 18:11:08 GMT
It made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, flushed down the toilet and with nothing to replace it.
Where is Snoke? Who is Snoke? Why is Snoke?
But here’s the rub. It was the same with the Emperor. We knew nothing about him till the prequels. Nobody griped then.Because he was much more convincing as a villain than Snoke ever was? And all of his plans made sense? And he wasn't stupidly killed in ESB?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 18:17:20 GMT
But here’s the rub. It was the same with the Emperor. We knew nothing about him till the prequels. Nobody griped then.Because he was much more convincing as a villain than Snoke ever was? And all of his plans made sense? And he wasn't stupidly killed in ESB? Snoke was basically picking up where Palpatine left off and I don’t see how his plans make any less sense than Palpatines did. Also Palpatine wasn’t that much more convincing. Those rose colored glasses are nice aren’t they?
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Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
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Post by docsteely on Jul 7, 2018 18:19:56 GMT
Because he was much more convincing as a villain than Snoke ever was? And all of his plans made sense? And he wasn't stupidly killed in ESB? Snoke was basically picking up where Palpatine left off and I don’t see how his plans make any less sense than Palpatines did. Also Palpatine wasn’t that much more convincing. Those rose colored glasses are nice aren’t they?Please maintain your civility or I'll stop taking you seriously. I did not for one moment made this personal.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 18:22:36 GMT
Snoke was basically picking up where Palpatine left off and I don’t see how his plans make any less sense than Palpatines did. Also Palpatine wasn’t that much more convincing. Those rose colored glasses are nice aren’t they?Please maintain your civility or I'll stop taking you seriously. I did not for one moment made this personal. Sorry I meant it sarcastically.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 18:36:55 GMT
Because he was much more convincing as a villain than Snoke ever was? And all of his plans made sense? And he wasn't stupidly killed in ESB? Snoke was basically picking up where Palpatine left off and I don’t see how his plans make any less sense than Palpatines did. Also Palpatine wasn’t that much more convincing. Those rose colored glasses are nice aren’t they? Grif, STFU man. Please. Sheev was such an awesome villain he STILL influences movies today, the baddies in everything from "Black Cauldron" to "the 5th Element" The only thing Snoke inspired was for kids to drop out of film school...
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 18:39:28 GMT
Snoke was basically picking up where Palpatine left off and I don’t see how his plans make any less sense than Palpatines did. Also Palpatine wasn’t that much more convincing. Those rose colored glasses are nice aren’t they? Grif, STFU man. Please. Sheev was such an awesome villain he STILL influences movies today, the baddies in everything from "Black Cauldron" to "the 5th Element" The only thing Snoke inspired was for kids to drop out of film school... I won’t tolerate this from you or anyone. I have a right to my opinion as do you yours.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 7, 2018 18:41:12 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 18:42:19 GMT
Grif, STFU man. Please. Sheev was such an awesome villain he STILL influences movies today, the baddies in everything from "Black Cauldron" to "the 5th Element" The only thing Snoke inspired was for kids to drop out of film school... I won’t tolerate this from you or anyone. I have a right to my opinion as do you yours. Aw... come on. I was just playin'/being sarcastic
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2018 18:44:45 GMT
I won’t tolerate this from you or anyone. I have a right to my opinion as do you yours. Aw... come on. I was just playin'/being sarcastic Big difference in my sarcastic comment than yours.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 7, 2018 18:46:35 GMT
I won’t tolerate this from you or anyone. I have a right to my opinion as do you yours. Aw... come on. I was just playin'/being sarcastic Nevertheless, keep in mind user can post anywhere at anytime, provided they don't break the rules. And remember, context matters
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 18:52:29 GMT
Aw... come on. I was just playin'/being sarcastic Big difference in my sarcastic comment than yours.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 7, 2018 19:12:15 GMT
Lol, I'll do it then. Palpatine put a plan in place, in case he died. Padawan of Plagueis, wants to live forever, doesn't care about the means... But he puts a contingency plan in place for his Empire, because that's what he really cares about. Yes, this makes loads of sense. Where's Plagueis? Who’s Plagueis? Why is Plagueis? P.S. Edited for accuracy reasons The prequels had Palpatine tell a story about Plagueis having the ability to manipulate midi-chlorians and create life. There was an implication in there that Palpatine did that with Shmi and is, after a fashion, Anakin's father. Palpatine does not outright state Plagueis was his mentor but it's heavily implied. Then there's this: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but, if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." - Darth Sideous to Anakin. Pretty clear intention that Palpatine had every intention of becoming immortal and so would not need a contingency plan for the Empire to exist beyond his death. In any case, Plagueis was outright mentioned and had a story told about him in RotS.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 7, 2018 19:17:18 GMT
Where's Plagueis? Who’s Plagueis? Why is Plagueis? P.S. Edited for accuracy reasons In any case, Plagueis was outright mentioned and had a story told about him in RotS. So, the only questions now are; was Sheev bullshitting only to manipulate Skywalker? If not, will J.J. use this plot thread in ep. 9? I think the answer is probably No to both
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