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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 16:15:15 GMT
The Force is very powerful. It’s possible it was pure survival instincts that kicked in her dormant powers. Its actually even MORE problematic that Palpatine, given his power and all of the Force jumping and twirling in RotS, didn't just stop himself from falling. Before the prequels, I remember wondering about Palpatine's inability to save himself from being tossed down the shaft in RotJ in the 90s. Yoda could lift an X-Wing, but this grand wizard guy can't lift himself out of a shaft? I think one of the explanations was that Vader Force pushed him, and that was part of why he was so exhausted afterwards. Well, that and the electrocution. Anyway, Rian's explanation was basically, yeah, not that difficult: io9.gizmodo.com/everything-rian-johnson-has-been-forced-to-explain-abou-1822598181I always had a slight issue with that too. How couldn’t he save himself?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 16:17:25 GMT
The Force is very powerful. It’s possible it was pure survival instincts that kicked in her dormant powers. Maybe. The only power I remember that resembles it is Breath Control from KOTOR 2. Which is not cannon anymore...
Also would that mean you don't need to learn the powers, they are already in you and you just need to wake them up? That is quite a leap of faith.
Luke didn’t learn about the force before he met Yoda yet he could manipulate it during times of stress. Also there’s that scene from the Force Unleashed as well. That was always more cannon than KOTOR ever was.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 16:25:20 GMT
Luke didn’t learn about the force before he met Yoda yet he could manipulate it during times of stress. Actually, he did, Obi-wan started teaching him almost immediately. Fair point. Doesn’t mean someone strong in the force couldn’t do it in that situation. And you want specific examples? Fine. The pulling down the Star Destroyer in Force Unleashed. Anakin’s Ability’s with little training, Luke tapping into the Force in the Wampa den. Leia hearing Luke again no training. I’m sure there’s more.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 16:26:17 GMT
Actually there are plenty of examples, some in cannon and some not. You do realize that your one-liners are of extremely limited worth if you are not going to elaborate on them and provide proof/reasoning for your assertions, right? I have elaborated before. Just tired of repeating myself.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 8, 2018 16:29:36 GMT
Luke didn’t learn about the force before he met Yoda yet he could manipulate it during times of stress. Actually, he did, Obi-wan started teaching him almost immediately. Iirc Obi-Wan also left Luke his journal while the latter had 3 years to train before the battle of Hoth.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 16:40:39 GMT
Fair point. Doesn’t mean someone strong in the force couldn’t do it in that situation. And you want specific examples? Fine. The pulling down the Star Destroyer in Force Unleashed. Anakin’s Ability’s with little training, Luke tapping into the Force in the Wampa den. Leia hearing Luke again no training. I’m sure there’s more. Yes, that's precisely what it means. "Strong in the Force" merely refers to potential, not actual ability. Anakin was the "chosen one", he was supposed to be stronger in the Force than everyone else at the time, yet, the only things you see him do are the one thing the Force is known to provide consistently to Force-sensitives: Luck. (and some precognition) Luke WAS trained when he did the things you mention. Starkiller wasn't only trained, he was trained like a Sith, meaning that he was trained in the harshest way possible, no respite, no coddling, by one of the harshest teachers possible. What he did was certainly notable, but not exactly unprecedented, and certainly not untrained. And as the link I provided before shows, Leia didn't have any training. (which is something both directors stated IIRC) I won’t dispute that she wasn’t trained. I still contend that someone born with strong inherited Force ability that in a dire situation it’s possible. Is it a perfect scene? No but it works for me and that’s all that truly matters.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 8, 2018 16:42:03 GMT
Wait so 30 years have passed and Leia didn't receive any force training from Luke?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 17:04:01 GMT
I won’t dispute that she wasn’t trained. I still contend that someone born with strong inherited Force ability that in a dire situation it’s possible. Is it a perfect scene? No but it works for me and that’s all that truly matters. Possible? Based on what? Do you even understand the criticism here? The criticism is that Rian Johnson basically ignored the established lore about how the Force works for no good reason. If all you have to say is: "Well I think that it's possible", well, that's not a particularly meaningful contribution to the discussion. Wait so 30 years have passed and Leia didn't receive any force training from Luke? Apparently. I’ve given examples where I’ve shown how extraordinary powers exist. Your point is she had little training. I don’t agree. JJ said she chose not to be a Jedi. Like could have still instructed her in basic training. He never said no training. I’ve checked. It wasn’t a perfect scene and I’ve said why I think it’s possible. Adrenaline and the fact she is strong in the force. I had no issue with it, you did and that’s fine.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 17:23:25 GMT
I’ve given examples where I’ve shown how extraordinary powers exist. Your point is she had little training. I don’t agree. JJ said she chose not to be a Jedi. Like could have still instructed her in basic training. He never said no training. I’ve checked. It wasn’t a perfect scene and I’ve said why I think it’s possible. Adrenaline and the fact she is strong in the force. I had no issue with it, you did and that’s fine. So, when Luke was stuck in a cave with a Giant Wampa about to eat him alive, he barely could pull a lightsaber into his hand from a dozen meters or less away, and that's despite the fact that he had training. Leia on the other hand didn't have training (or MAYBE had some very basic training according to you, which she didn't but let's say you're right), and she managed to survive a huge explosion that smashed apart the bridge of her ship AND vacuum exposure? I call BS. Point me to one instance where it’s said she had zero training.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 8, 2018 17:25:44 GMT
Wait so 30 years have passed and Leia didn't receive any force training from Luke? Apparently. I want my Legends Leia back.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jul 8, 2018 17:27:56 GMT
To be honest, after all those spontanious uses of extraordinary Force powers by untrained people it's hard to accept the death of any prequel Jedi.
They just get shot.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 17:50:47 GMT
Same article I read. It doesn’t say she never got any training only that she chose a different path. Also I’m done debating this. Yes it would be hard but not impossible given the circumstances. That’s my position and it won’t change and I don’t agree that it contradicts lore. We won’t convince each other so it’s best to agree to disagree.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 8, 2018 18:06:03 GMT
Mind you in the Aftermath novel Leia was only taught how to meditate by Luke, but until a tie-in comic or novel gives further details about Leia's training her force flying feat is fantastical even from an in universe pov due to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Luke being unable to replicate it with similar levels of training.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 18:50:18 GMT
Mind you in the Aftermath novel Leia was only taught how to meditate by Luke, but until a tie-in comic or novel gives further details about Leia's training her force flying feat is fantastical even from an in universe pov due to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Luke being unable to replicate it with similar levels of training. I’ll admit it was fantastical but not enough to claim it was a bad movie.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 8, 2018 19:00:42 GMT
I’ll admit it was fantastical but not enough to claim it was a bad movie. Erm... That's not why people say TLJ was a bad movie. *coughs*
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 8, 2018 19:06:31 GMT
Is it a perfect scene? No but it works for me and that’s all that truly matters.This is why none of us take you seriously. Everything for you is subjective, and personal. We vehemently disagree with that, and so does nature, but you go on with yer badself.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 19:15:59 GMT
I’ll admit it was fantastical but not enough to claim it was a bad movie. Erm... That's not why people say TLJ was a bad movie. No they have an issue with many things. None of which I do.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2018 19:18:59 GMT
Is it a perfect scene? No but it works for me and that’s all that truly matters.This is why none of us take you seriously. Everything for you is subjective, and personal. We vehemently disagree with that, and so does nature, but you go on with yer badself. No it’s not personal and most of it is subjective. The Leia thing could be an objectively bad decision and I’ve mentioned before it could have been handled better. Most of the gripes I’ve seen however are subjective opinions.
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 8, 2018 20:09:23 GMT
I don't think it is established that every untrained or lightly trained Force user behaves the same under duress. If this is just based on Luke in the Wampa cave, one example doesn't seem like it would make a rule. I believe TPM is where is it mentioned that heightened reflexes from being able to sense the future are usually the first sign, and that can be pretty powerful by itself, and the novelization mentioned affinity with technology as well. I don't think Leia used the Force to survive in space; she was dying and movie time just made it look longer than it actually did, but its only ~2 minutes from the explosion to the time she flies back to the ship in the movie. She did use the Force to move towards the ship, and as has been mentioned since she was weightless all it took was a nudge to get that movement.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 8, 2018 21:11:11 GMT
I don't think Leia used the Force to survive in space; she was dying and movie time just made it look longer than it actually did, but its only ~2 minutes from the explosion to the time she flies back to the ship in the movie. She did use the Force to move towards the ship, and as has been mentioned since she was weightless all it took was a nudge to get that movement.I begrudgingly agree. We cannot be so anal-retentive about the "realism" of space stuff in these movies, there's super loud sound effects when this would be impossible in the vacuum after all. Luke projecting an illusion of himself across light-years or Leia making a Force- shield around herself aren't nearly the dumbest shit in this gawd-awful mess. Basic screenwriting guidelines were intentionally (foolishly) ignored. This movie felt insulting to the fans BY DESIGN Let's pick our battles guys;
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Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Jul 8, 2018 21:56:21 GMT
I don't think it is established that every untrained or lightly trained Force user behaves the same under duress. If this is just based on Luke in the Wampa cave, one example doesn't seem like it would make a rule. I believe TPM is where is it mentioned that heightened reflexes from being able to sense the future are usually the first sign, and that can be pretty powerful by itself, and the novelization mentioned affinity with technology as well. I don't think Leia used the Force to survive in space; she was dying and movie time just made it look longer than it actually did, but its only ~2 minutes from the explosion to the time she flies back to the ship in the movie. She did use the Force to move towards the ship, and as has been mentioned since she was weightless all it took was a nudge to get that movement. Look, I'm sure we could argue about it endlessly, but the point I'm making is a simple one (in my opinion at least): Leia and Rey aren't the first Force users in the SW franchise, we saw and read descriptions of many of them and what they tend to be capable of, both with training and without. One recurring theme is that conscious use of the Force is practically unheard off without training. (especially not on an impressive scale) Those Force sensitives who were left on their own to discover their abilities usually take decades at least to achieve even a semblance of control - not to mention mastery, and those are people who actually experimented with their abilities over time, not people who rejected training because apparently they had something better to do. It doesn't matter who we are talking about, Anakin, Luke, Darth Bane, or any number of other powerful Force users, the rules are still the same: before training they all tended to be impressive at *something*, they could be said to have been extremely "lucky", etc. The one thing they didn't do was to figure out how to use the Force consciously in any substantial capacity. But, here we have the new movies, where it just so happens that our Powerful Female Characters TM break apart everything that was established in that regard without any real justification. As for Leia, think back to the scene with Shepard at the start of ME2, this is a slightly more realistic take on what it looks like when the air is being sucked out of you by a vacuum, not the sleeping beauty nonsense you see in the scene with Leia. The entire scene just makes no sense for someone like her: A. She survived a colossal explosion unscathed. B. She managed to keep herself from suffocating, and stave off the sheer cold she was exposed to. C. She managed to pull herself telekinetically in space, towards a space-ship which was likely moving all the while away from her. This isn't similar in any way to any other feat I've ever seen in SW from a non-trained Force-user. In fact, this is the kind of feat you would attribute to a Jedi master of great skill or an especially powerful Sith if you wanted to make them look especially impressive. It's somewhat similar with Rey and her amazing ability to just defeat everyone and understand the Force (and everything else) better and faster than anyone. She simply doesn't have flaws, or limitations, there was never a real struggle with her. The only thing that would make her character even marginally compelling is if she would fail horribly and die come episode 9. (or fell to the Dark-Side and became a drooling power-hungry dark-side junky, but she's far too perfect for that) One of the common misconceptions about surviving in vacuum is related to breathing. You will suffocate not only because of the lack of oxygen, but because the soft tissue of your lungs where the gas exchange normally occurs will explode due to the internal pressure. It's assumed (as no one ever did such an experiment on humans) that you'll die faster if you hold your breath, because that way you increase your internal pressure, thus accelerating the above process.
Tl;dr not a fun way to die...
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 8, 2018 22:16:02 GMT
She did use the Force to move towards the ship, and as has been mentioned since she was weightless all it took was a nudge to get that movement. Look, I'm sure we could argue about it endlessly, but the point I'm making is a simple one (in my opinion at least): Leia and Rey aren't the first Force users in the SW franchise, we saw and read descriptions of many of them and what they tend to be capable of, both with training and without. One recurring theme is that conscious use of the Force is practically unheard off without training. (especially not on an impressive scale) Those Force sensitives who were left on their own to discover their abilities usually take decades at least to achieve even a semblance of control - not to mention mastery, and those are people who actually experimented with their abilities over time, not people who rejected training because apparently they had something better to do. It doesn't matter who we are talking about, Anakin, Luke, Darth Bane, or any number of other powerful Force users, the rules are still the same: before training they all tended to be impressive at *something*, they could be said to have been extremely "lucky", etc. The one thing they didn't do was to figure out how to use the Force consciously in any substantial capacity. But, here we have the new movies, where it just so happens that our Powerful Female Characters TM break apart everything that was established in that regard without any real justification. As for Leia, think back to the scene with Shepard at the start of ME2, this is a slightly more realistic take on what it looks like when the air is being sucked out of you by a vacuum, not the sleeping beauty nonsense you see in the scene with Leia. The entire scene just makes no sense for someone like her: A. She survived a colossal explosion unscathed. B. She managed to keep herself from suffocating, and stave off the sheer cold she was exposed to. C. She managed to pull herself telekinetically in space, towards a space-ship which was likely moving all the while away from her. This isn't similar in any way to any other feat I've ever seen in SW from a non-trained Force-user. In fact, this is the kind of feat you would attribute to a Jedi master of great skill or an especially powerful Sith if you wanted to make them look especially impressive. It's somewhat similar with Rey and her amazing ability to just defeat everyone and understand the Force (and everything else) better and faster than anyone. She simply doesn't have flaws, or limitations, there was never a real struggle with her. The only thing that would make her character even marginally compelling is if she would fail horribly and die come episode 9. (or fell to the Dark-Side and became a drooling power-hungry dark-side junky, but she's far too perfect for that)/THREAD
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 8, 2018 22:50:24 GMT
I don't think it is established that every untrained or lightly trained Force user behaves the same under duress. If this is just based on Luke in the Wampa cave, one example doesn't seem like it would make a rule. I believe TPM is where is it mentioned that heightened reflexes from being able to sense the future are usually the first sign, and that can be pretty powerful by itself, and the novelization mentioned affinity with technology as well. I don't think Leia used the Force to survive in space; she was dying and movie time just made it look longer than it actually did, but its only ~2 minutes from the explosion to the time she flies back to the ship in the movie. She did use the Force to move towards the ship, and as has been mentioned since she was weightless all it took was a nudge to get that movement. Look, I'm sure we could argue about it endlessly, but the point I'm making is a simple one (in my opinion at least): Leia and Rey aren't the first Force users in the SW franchise, we saw and read descriptions of many of them and what they tend to be capable of, both with training and without. One recurring theme is that conscious use of the Force is practically unheard off without training. (especially not on an impressive scale) Those Force sensitives who were left on their own to discover their abilities usually take decades at least to achieve even a semblance of control - not to mention mastery, and those are people who actually experimented with their abilities over time, not people who rejected training because apparently they had something better to do.
It doesn't matter who we are talking about, Anakin, Luke, Darth Bane, or any number of other powerful Force users, the rules are still the same: before training they all tended to be impressive at *something*, they could be said to have been extremely "lucky", etc.
The one thing they didn't do was to figure out how to use the Force consciously in any substantial capacity.
But, here we have the new movies, where it just so happens that our Powerful Female CharactersTM break apart everything that was established in that regard without any real justification.
As for Leia, think back to the scene with Shepard at the start of ME2, this is a slightly more realistic take on what it looks like when the air is being sucked out of you by a vacuum, not the sleeping beauty nonsense you see in the scene with Leia. The entire scene just makes no sense for someone like her: A. She survived a colossal explosion unscathed. B. She managed to keep herself from suffocating, and stave off the sheer cold she was exposed to. C. She managed to pull herself telekinetically in space, towards a space-ship which was likely moving all the while away from her. This isn't similar in any way to any other feat I've ever seen in SW from a non-trained Force-user. In fact, this is the kind of feat you would attribute to a Jedi master of great skill or an especially powerful Sith if you wanted to make them look especially impressive. It's somewhat similar with Rey and her amazing ability to just defeat everyone and understand the Force (and everything else) better and faster than anyone. She simply doesn't have flaws, or limitations, there was never a real struggle with her.
The only thing that would make her character even marginally compelling is if she would fail horribly and die come episode 9. (or fell to the Dark-Side and became a drooling power-hungry dark-side junky, but she's far too perfect for that)
I understand the argument, I just disagree with the premise that what she did was such a high level Jedi master skill. A and B: Don't have anything to do with Leia and the Force, it just means she survived exposure and regained consciousness for some limited time. C: I'm pretty sure nudging an object in zero G is a padwan level skill, and it is fairly plausible that someone strong in the Force and familiar with what the Force is capable of, would be able to pull it off under stress. With respect to the ship moving, she was probably moving relative to it anyway after being sucked out. In short, I think to make her survival seem ridiculous and inconsistent, one has to build up what happened into some incredible feat instead of what it looked like, which was mostly luck and serendipity.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 8, 2018 23:18:19 GMT
Look, I'm sure we could argue about it endlessly, but the point I'm making is a simple one (in my opinion at least): Leia and Rey aren't the first Force users in the SW franchise, we saw and read descriptions of many of them and what they tend to be capable of, both with training and without. One recurring theme is that conscious use of the Force is practically unheard off without training. (especially not on an impressive scale) Those Force sensitives who were left on their own to discover their abilities usually take decades at least to achieve even a semblance of control - not to mention mastery, and those are people who actually experimented with their abilities over time, not people who rejected training because apparently they had something better to do.
It doesn't matter who we are talking about, Anakin, Luke, Darth Bane, or any number of other powerful Force users, the rules are still the same: before training they all tended to be impressive at *something*, they could be said to have been extremely "lucky", etc.
The one thing they didn't do was to figure out how to use the Force consciously in any substantial capacity.
But, here we have the new movies, where it just so happens that our Powerful Female CharactersTM break apart everything that was established in that regard without any real justification.
As for Leia, think back to the scene with Shepard at the start of ME2, this is a slightly more realistic take on what it looks like when the air is being sucked out of you by a vacuum, not the sleeping beauty nonsense you see in the scene with Leia. The entire scene just makes no sense for someone like her: A. She survived a colossal explosion unscathed. B. She managed to keep herself from suffocating, and stave off the sheer cold she was exposed to. C. She managed to pull herself telekinetically in space, towards a space-ship which was likely moving all the while away from her. This isn't similar in any way to any other feat I've ever seen in SW from a non-trained Force-user. In fact, this is the kind of feat you would attribute to a Jedi master of great skill or an especially powerful Sith if you wanted to make them look especially impressive. It's somewhat similar with Rey and her amazing ability to just defeat everyone and understand the Force (and everything else) better and faster than anyone. She simply doesn't have flaws, or limitations, there was never a real struggle with her.
The only thing that would make her character even marginally compelling is if she would fail horribly and die come episode 9. (or fell to the Dark-Side and became a drooling power-hungry dark-side junky, but she's far too perfect for that)
I understand the argument, I just disagree with the premise that what she did was such a high level Jedi master skill... In short, I think to make her survival seem ridiculous and inconsistent, one has to build up what happened into some incredible feat instead of what it looked like, which was mostly luck and serendipity. So this begs the question; at what point does a character's Luck & serendipity run out? When does realistic chance overtake the "power of magical ovaries"?!?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 8, 2018 23:28:23 GMT
In short, I think to make her survival seem ridiculous and inconsistent, one has to build up what happened into some incredible feat instead of what it looked like, which was mostly luck and serendipity. Or in order to make her her feat plausible one would minimize it? Personally I don't think that this feat requires building up. Both looking at it from a realistic perspective, or from an in-universe perspective, I don't think that there's any way to sell this as business as usual. Well, your description here is where I saw the idea that Leia used to the Force to not suffocate and survive vacuum exposure. Before that when I watched the movie, I saw her wake up after being sucked out and (assumed she was dying cuz why not), and she was only able to weakly pull herself back to the airlock, not even sure she was conscious the whole way back - so damaged she was unconscious and required medical attention.
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