shodiswe
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Post by shodiswe on Dec 16, 2016 18:53:44 GMT
I've been thinking... Maybe the Kett are just bioengineered clonetroopers used by some other force... The Remnant has been tinkering with other life it seems, maybe they engineered them to defend their installations and drive away intruders. And whatever else they might want.
They might not be a naturaly created species... More like Organic robots or pawns.
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MasterJukes
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Post by MasterJukes on Dec 16, 2016 19:13:53 GMT
You know I'm a very nice guy, so I'll let them choose their own future. If they stand in my way, their anuses shall be destroyed... Otherwise, Live and Let Live
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theflyingzamboni
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Post by theflyingzamboni on Dec 16, 2016 19:18:12 GMT
In regards to the Rachni, it's quite the double standard that Wrex utilizes when calling for their destruction on Noveria compared to his demanding of a cure for his people. Sure Wrex has his biases, but he can't be that blind to the similarities between the two species. The entirety of human history would like to have a word with you.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 16, 2016 21:14:03 GMT
In regards to the Rachni, it's quite the double standard that Wrex utilizes when calling for their destruction on Noveria compared to his demanding of a cure for his people. Sure Wrex has his biases, but he can't be that blind to the similarities between the two species. The entirety of human history would like to have a word with you. Yeah, it seems our penchant for rampant stupidity bleeds over into the human-like aliens as well. Needless to say, I found the Rachni's willingness to help and not ask for any handouts to be far more appealing than the Krogan's overall victim mentality. But that's just me.
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Post by Cirvante on Dec 16, 2016 21:25:43 GMT
Not really. From the way Legion described the difference between Geth processes and Heretic processes, I'd say that in order to make the same calculation and arrive to different results, the Reapers had to implant the equivalent of a rootkit in the Geth OS, which in turn means that every decision they made was influenced by the Reapers, which is the equivalent of Indoctrination. So while you can't quite indoctrinate Synthetics in the same way you can organics, they are probably even more vulnerable to subversion considering how advanced the Reapers are when it comes to electronic warfare. Legion: "We are purely software. Mathematics. The heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither result is an error."
Doesn't sound like it. The way I understood it is that there was a schism between the True Geth and the Heretics. They did not reach a consensus and instead came to different conclusions. Only later did the Heretics try to subvert the True Geth with the virus provided by Souvereign. If Souvereign had used the virus from the very beginning, all geth would have joined him. themikefest You are arguing on an emotional level, trying to justify your ingame actions. Read the end of my post again. I'm not trying to pass some sort of moral judgement here, I'm merely stating that acts of genocide were possible in all three Mass Effect games.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 16, 2016 21:55:09 GMT
Indoctrination works on organics, not synthetics. The heretics joined the Reapers of their own volition. They have both agency and self-awareness, Legion even states that the two groups simply came to different conclusions. Chosing to destroy them all fits the criteria of genocide. Not really. From the way Legion described the difference between Geth processes and Heretic processes, I'd say that in order to make the same calculation and arrive to different results, the Reapers had to implant the equivalent of a rootkit in the Geth OS Not necessary, what you are describing is a requirement for progress. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to invent stuff, because eventually they would reach invalid conclusion without any possible alternatives.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 16, 2016 22:03:21 GMT
. themikefest You are arguing on an emotional level, trying to justify your ingame actions. Read the end of my post again. Ha. You may want to read my post again
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Post by Vall on Dec 17, 2016 1:40:26 GMT
Indoctrination works on organics, not synthetics. The heretics joined the Reapers of their own volition. They have both agency and self-awareness, Legion even states that the two groups simply came to different conclusions. Chosing to destroy them all fits the criteria of genocide. Not really. From the way Legion described the difference between Geth processes and Heretic processes, I'd say that in order to make the same calculation and arrive to different results, the Reapers had to implant the equivalent of a rootkit in the Geth OS, which in turn means that every decision they made was influenced by the Reapers, which is the equivalent of Indoctrination. So while you can't quite indoctrinate Synthetics in the same way you can organics, they are probably even more vulnerable to subversion considering how advanced the Reapers are when it comes to electronic warfare. I understood it more in a way that original heretics arrived at the conclusion of worshipping the reapers without outside aid and were allowed to leave by the true geth. Hovewer later heretics decided they are so right nobody can disagree with them, so they designed virus that would slightly corrupt processes of the true geth so they would conclude reapers = awesome. And then of course based on your choices Legion might redesign that virus so it works the other way.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 17, 2016 11:32:39 GMT
Not necessary, what you are describing is a requirement for progress. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to invent stuff, because eventually they would reach invalid conclusion without any possible alternatives. The Reaper rootkit only modified what the Reaper wanted to modify. The idea that the same mathematical equation has two different results and that "neither results in an error" is simply retarded under normal circumstances. Hmm, are you sure you remember what exactly he was saying? Anyway the general idea is that joining Reapers was a decision Heretics made. It's not right or wrong, it's just different perspective. Why scientists reach invalid conclusions? Because data is never complete and assumptions are required.
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Post by armass81 on Dec 17, 2016 15:42:46 GMT
Question: if milky way races number in about a million at most, how are you gonna destroy a race that has the population in the billions?
Besides we dont even knwo if their homeworld is even in the Heleus cluster, it could be far away.
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Post by Verro on Dec 17, 2016 15:43:46 GMT
Question: if milky way races number in about a million at most, how are you gonna destroy a race that has the population in the billions? Kill more of them than they kill of you.
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 17, 2016 16:01:02 GMT
Question: if milky way races number in about a million at most, how are you gonna destroy a race that has the population in the billions? Kill more of them than they kill of you. You reminded me of this scene from an old anime (Arislan Senki): "How many of us are there?" "Including you, six." "Our fighting strength has increased by 50%." "The Lusitanian army is 300,000 strong, so we're down to 50,000 each." "Oh, great."
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 17, 2016 16:49:01 GMT
Question: if milky way races number in about a million at most, how are you gonna destroy a race that has the population in the billions? Besides we dont even knwo if their homeworld is even in the Heleus cluster, it could be far away. Drop some vorcha or Thresher Maw spores on their most populated planets and let the nature do the rest. And it's 100 thousands of MWers by the way.
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Xerxes52
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Xerxes52 on Dec 17, 2016 17:38:17 GMT
You could always just park outside their systems and sling dino killers down their gravity well.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2016 20:44:45 GMT
It almost seems off-topic to mention the genuine dilemma we are faced with in this 'serious' thread: As 'new arrivals', are we entitled to: - Steal
- Exploit resources
- Kill
To establish our new home? I hope there will be many juicy moral choices, but genocide would not be top of my list... Humans already did this once by colonizing in batarian space. It didn't end well. Granted, the batarians as a culture are slavers and so we kind of don't care but nevertheless is led to specific hatred against humans. My Shepards were never able to engage in genocide. I doubt my Ryders will be any different. As for your questions, well, that's always what it comes down to with expansion. If a people anywhere continues to grow, inevitably they will butt heads regardless.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2016 21:16:07 GMT
Even better - let us sympathize and empathize with Kett, portrait them as patriots and defenders of their state and then... let us kill them. For nothing good is ever comes from Dark Space. Imagine being stuck under Columbus' command with no way back. Who deserves to live more, hundred of thousands MWers or a million of Kett? This is what I'd call "morally grey". Not like there will actually be such choice in-game though. Some bad guys, some good guys and lots of adventures, and that's about it. What does Dark Space have to do with anything? Dark Space appears to be part of the MW, just a part where there are no stars and planets. Even if it's outside of MW, the planets and stars in the Andromeda Galaxy still don't fit the definition of Dark Space.
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Post by armass81 on Dec 17, 2016 22:29:46 GMT
Im calling it now, the paragon ending concerns with making peace with the kett, and renegade going Cortez on them, taking over their territories in Heleus and exterminating their presence there, with some remnant weapon maybe.
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Post by Cirvante on Dec 18, 2016 0:56:58 GMT
That's an assumption Legion makes according to the data available to the Geth, and considering how shocked he was at the idea of spying and subterfuge he probably wouldn't have discovered the truth on his own. I think it is likely that the Reapers used an alpha version of their virus that modified some of the Geth, and then perfected the virus for use on the others. Because the idea that the same mathematical equation has two different results and that "neither results in an error" is simply retarded under normal circumstances. We're talking about Bioware here. Besides, the Geth may just be software, but they are still a sentient AI when linked together. They themselves aren't even completely aware of what that entails. Remember asking Legion about the integrated piece of Shepard's N7 armor and he returns "No data available."? Is it so hard to accept that different Geth might come to different conclusions regarding the future of their species? This was a crucial choice with massive repercussions, either follow the "perfect" machines or build their own future. This isn't some simple math equation that will always result in one right answer. By saying that it takes a virus to make any Geth consider joining the reapers, you're robbing them of any sort of agency. Remember that in ME3 they willingly joined the Reapers to avoid their own destruction at the hands of the Quarians (although that was a lazy retcon to create a big conflict for the player to solve).
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 18, 2016 4:08:32 GMT
Even better - let us sympathize and empathize with Kett, portrait them as patriots and defenders of their state and then... let us kill them. For nothing good is ever comes from Dark Space. Imagine being stuck under Columbus' command with no way back. Who deserves to live more, hundred of thousands MWers or a million of Kett? This is what I'd call "morally grey". Not like there will actually be such choice in-game though. Some bad guys, some good guys and lots of adventures, and that's about it. What does Dark Space have to do with anything? Dark Space appears to be part of the MW, just a part where there are no stars and planets. Even if it's outside of MW, the planets and stars in the Andromeda Galaxy still don't fit the definition of Dark Space. "Dark Space" is the open, comparatively empty space between the galaxies. In Ahriman 's illustration, we'd be the bad thing that arrived from dark space. Edit: omitted a word
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 18, 2016 5:16:14 GMT
What does Dark Space have to do with anything? Dark Space appears to be part of the MW, just a part where there are no stars and planets. Even if it's outside of MW, the planets and stars in the Andromeda Galaxy still don't fit the definition of Dark Space. "Dark Space" is the open, comparatively space between the galaxies. In Ahriman 's illustration, we'd be the bad thing that arrived from dark space. Got it. Makes sense. And accurate, most likely, even if we're relatively friendly.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 18, 2016 5:32:55 GMT
"Dark Space" is the open, comparatively space between the galaxies. In Ahriman 's illustration, we'd be the bad thing that arrived from dark space. Got it. Makes sense. And accurate, most likely, even if we're relatively friendly. Yeah, silly genocide thread aside, I think it's clear that we will be viewed as invaders by at least part of kett society. I'm interested in seeing if eventual peace is possible, or even desirable.
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