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Post by secretrare on Dec 27, 2016 3:54:03 GMT
I think Gaider copied way too much from the Arthurian legends tbh... The whole Idea of a sword to kill the AD is kinda like Excalibur....and the DR especially with Alistair is kinda like Artu`\Morgana.
Ah that's why i took Loghain for a more original ending that is less of an archetype....
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 30, 2016 4:23:17 GMT
Morrigan's pregnancy. If you slept with her one time - as early as Lothering - but refuse the DR, it means she conceived waaaaay back when you first had sex. She's wearing a bikini and could've been pregnant for a year (WTF??!!!?!?!?!) and literally never showed.
Is everyone at camp really dense? Did they go to the Alistair school of biology? Do they not have Sex Ed in Canada?!
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Post by Aren on Dec 30, 2016 7:41:04 GMT
One major plot hole at the beginning of DAO is the decision by Duncan to commit his entire Grey Warden force to the front line, when he admits that as yet there has been no sign of the archdemon. It has to be the worst bit of strategic thinking ever, particularly in view of the fact that his forces are limited. Considering the major reason the Grey Wardens exist is to kill the arch demon and this cannot be achieved without them, why commit the entire force bar two to the most vulnerable part of the battlefield? Then if he feels obliged to do so to maintain the goodwill of the king (which should definitely have been a secondary consideration), why not tell the only two reserves why they are so important, so they appreciate why he is keeping them out of the battle? If we're going to be mildy realistic about military tactics for a moment (which is probably a mistake since Bioware is never realistic) the Wardens don't make sense as troops in a conventional war. They aren't knights for the most part - lore wise they're not supposed to fight on horseback like chevalier. They're footsoldiers, archers and mages. That's not really a shock drop, and their numbers are too small to make sense in a pitched battle as a unit. This is what makes Duncan so terrible at his job.
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Post by Prince on Jan 19, 2017 14:42:08 GMT
that wasn't what I meant,if the PC would have been aware of the US at the landsmeet(which is not possible in game due to the manevers pulled by the writers to push the DR)then killing Loghain would have been totally insane regardless of the personal feelings toward him. Why would we invite the insanely paranoid guy who's been trying to kill us the entire time and not just turn to our troop of loyal non insane companions? Teh conscription doesn't apply ONLY to criminals. The ARchdemon has been sighted, everyone is very aware of this being a real Blight (only Loghain is in total denial). Wynne would have done it. Oghren, probably, I mean he joins very voluntarily later! The only people who would not or are incapable are Morrigan and Shale. Well, Sten may not have joined, but then again, maybe he would have. He's a souless soldier, wht's a little archdemon blood? Also, any one of the many LEgion of the Dead I get to join the war effort every game. They're already dead. Why are the others companions such as Sten,Zevran,Oghren,Wynne,Leliana,Morrigan or Shale less of a risk than Loghain? Arguments can be made over them as to not being trustworthy nor loyal,Some of these people even try to kill the player character exactly like Loghain.
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Post by oyabun on Jan 19, 2017 15:04:12 GMT
Why are the others companions such as Sten,Zevran,Oghren,Wynne,Leliana,Morrigan or Shale less of a risk than Loghain? Arguments can be made over them as to not being trustworthy nor loyal,Some of these people even try to kill the player character exactly like Loghain. I'm honestly unable to comprehend what is the risk posed by Loghain post Landsmeet. Think he can ally himself with the Archdemon to kill our forces? Think the Archdemon will welcome him among his ranks? There is nothing he can do after the landsmeet without his political power and the arguments of him being so powerful on his own post landsmeet(despite being just an human being) to constitute a credible threat can be easly dismantled,so as i see it killing him there is not a matter of security risk is about revenge. Also even if the warden is unaware of the sacrifice they should know the fact that only a GW can kill an Archdemon at the Landsmeet.
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Post by mousestalker on Jan 19, 2017 15:51:01 GMT
Why would we invite the insanely paranoid guy who's been trying to kill us the entire time and not just turn to our troop of loyal non insane companions? Teh conscription doesn't apply ONLY to criminals. The ARchdemon has been sighted, everyone is very aware of this being a real Blight (only Loghain is in total denial). Wynne would have done it. Oghren, probably, I mean he joins very voluntarily later! The only people who would not or are incapable are Morrigan and Shale. Well, Sten may not have joined, but then again, maybe he would have. He's a souless soldier, wht's a little archdemon blood? Also, any one of the many LEgion of the Dead I get to join the war effort every game. They're already dead. Why are the others companions such as Sten,Zevran,Oghren,Wynne,Leliana,Morrigan or Shale less of a risk than Loghain? Arguments can be made over them as to not being trustworthy nor loyal,Some of these people even try to kill the player character exactly like Loghain. I have never had Shale turn on me. Never. As for Zevran, he starts out trying to commit suicide by Gray Warden. Later he makes it plain he isn't interested in the sort of bodily fluids represented by darkspawn blood. But he does stick around after the Blight if you romance him, which I almost always do. Wynne is pre-deceased even more than the Legion of the Dead and is incapable of siring a child. As is Leliana, who is possibly playing a deeper game than most people think. I deeply regret that Oghren is not a candidate in game for Morrigan's dark ritual. If it were possible, I would choose it every time. Given his remarks about the necessity of crowbars, the Sten would also make a wonderful candidate for Morrigan's rite.
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Post by oyabun on Jan 19, 2017 19:38:46 GMT
Why are the others companions such as Sten,Zevran,Oghren,Wynne,Leliana,Morrigan or Shale less of a risk than Loghain? Arguments can be made over them as to not being trustworthy nor loyal,Some of these people even try to kill the player character exactly like Loghain. I have never had Shale turn on me. Never. As for Zevran, he starts out trying to commit suicide by Gray Warden. Later he makes it plain he isn't interested in the sort of bodily fluids represented by darkspawn blood. But he does stick around after the Blight if you romance him, which I almost always do. Wynne is pre-deceased even more than the Legion of the Dead and is incapable of siring a child. As is Leliana, who is possibly playing a deeper game than most people think. I deeply regret that Oghren is not a candidate in game for Morrigan's dark ritual. If it were possible, I would choose it every time. Given his remarks about the necessity of crowbars, the Sten would also make a wonderful candidate for Morrigan's rite. -Why Leliana is unable to siring a child?I think maybe she just don't want one. If the game provided the option to recruit more GW it would have been better overall with or without Loghain,but that ritual of Morrigan is just a gamble no matter who does it,without a metagame perspective is one of the most reckless things I've ever come to know and i still don't understand why it works. I also don't think that a Qunari can have a child from a non-Qunari or at least I've never seen an half-Qunari in the game.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 23, 2017 12:26:17 GMT
By far the biggest plot hole (more like a crater) is the darkspawn horde`s behavior after Ostagar. It just doesn`t make any sense. I know that originally Bioware wanted DA:O to be a tale told by Morrigan after the events, something probably similar to what BW finally did for DA2. In that case, it made sense to ignore what the horde was doing. Morrigan has no military training, and she would have ignored all that "nonsense", focusing exclusively on the grey wardens and their small band. As it was, DA:O is also concentrating on the GW`s , but they travel around Ferelden a lot, and almost everywhere it`s mostly "rainbows and sunshine" as Merrill would have said. Let`s see... The darkspawn horde is gathering in the Korcari Wilds, probably deploying from a Deep Road entrance located there. That is a clever move from the Archdemon, since they are only a few Chasind to deal with, and the horde is out of sight for Fereldans, thus buying time to came out in a large enough number to overwhelm Ferelden quickly. Unfortunately, Duncan passes by (probably alerted by somebody like Chasind, Fereldan soldiers, another GW - we have no idea) and discovers the horde. We see this in the Intro scene. The Royal Army is gathered and deployed at Ostagar. A few battles are won, while the horde is busy comming out from the Deep Roads. Then we have the last battle, which is one of the most idiotic battle scenes I ever saw in a game. Cailan has only a few hundred soldiers, and instead of remaining under cover to hit the darkspawn with arrows and spells, holding his line, the stupid king charges a much larger horde. Loghain retreats, the Royal Army is mostly whipped out with probably only modest casualties for the horde. Then the horde spreads out, hits Lothering some days later, then ... vanishes . FOR A YEAR! Except for a few small bands. Which is utterly moronic. BW or Gaider cannot expect us to believe that a few templars and farmers from Lothering whipped out most of the darkspawn - a miracle feat even for a large army. More than that, Loghain is busy punishing nobles, trying to kill the remaining GW`s and apparently not concerned at all about the darkspawn. The same about Eamon and our Warden after Redcliffe is secured. Nobody in Ferelden gives a damn about the darkspawn horde until after the Landsmeet, when the Archdemon conveniently wakes up from her "little yearlong nap" (although we were able to see her in the Deep Roads very much active) and hits Redcliffe and Denerim. Now all this is crazy. The Archdemon is not stupid and started the campaign well. Then after Ostagar, when Ferelden is practically leaderless and in civil war, she doesn`t push for a fast conquest of the entire Ferelden and instead waits for I cannot even imagine what. More than that, we already know from Gaider`s book "The Stolen Throne" that there are several Deep Road entrances in Ferelden (Gaider was still working at "The Calling" by the time DA:O came out), so the Archdemon can practically attack everywhere in Ferelden unopposed. And it`s the same tune with our GW`s. Neither Alistair and the Warden are even a bit concerned about the horde`s advance and actions after Lothering. Because there isn`t a horde anymore. The Warden could have used the Blackstone Irregulars and the Mage`s Collective to track the horde, harrass the darkspawn, evacuate villages/farms. Then, after acquiring each group of allies they can be deployed all over Ferelden for the same tasks instead of sunbathing at their leisure at Redcliffe Castle. But of course, that would have meant a bit of planning and prioritizing. Like going straight to Redcliffe and the Circle first, to aquire a standing army of sorts in Ferelden, then pushing back the spread out horde while gathering the elves and dwarves. Would have required something like a war table from Inquisition for troop deployment and management. Not overly complicated, or at the level of A Total War game. Just enough for the feeling that it`s a real war waging out there, not a stage play. It would have worth it. Every little bit. Sadly, Bioware had another opinion...
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Post by secretrare on Jan 24, 2017 0:15:34 GMT
.....Sadly I can't disagree with anything especially Ostagar...that's why i believe that in terms consistency DAI and DA2(resurrections excluded)are better than DAO...
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 24, 2017 0:28:36 GMT
By far the biggest plot hole (more like a crater) is the darkspawn horde`s behavior after Ostagar. It just doesn`t make any sense. I know that originally Bioware wanted DA:O to be a tale told by Morrigan after the events, something probably similar to what BW finally did for DA2. In that case, it made sense to ignore what the horde was doing. Morrigan has no military training, and she would have ignored all that "nonsense", focusing exclusively on the grey wardens and their small band. As it was, DA:O is also concentrating on the GW`s , but they travel around Ferelden a lot, and almost everywhere it`s mostly "rainbows and sunshine" as Merrill would have said. Let`s see... The darkspawn horde is gathering in the Korcari Wilds, probably deploying from a Deep Road entrance located there. That is a clever move from the Archdemon, since they are only a few Chasind to deal with, and the horde is out of sight for Fereldans, thus buying time to came out in a large enough number to overwhelm Ferelden quickly. Unfortunately, Duncan passes by (probably alerted by somebody like Chasind, Fereldan soldiers, another GW - we have no idea) and discovers the horde. We see this in the Intro scene. The Royal Army is gathered and deployed at Ostagar. A few battles are won, while the horde is busy comming out from the Deep Roads. Then we have the last battle, which is one of the most idiotic battle scenes I ever saw in a game. Cailan has only a few hundred soldiers, and instead of remaining under cover to hit the darkspawn with arrows and spells, holding his line, the stupid king charges a much larger horde. Loghain retreats, the Royal Army is mostly whipped out with probably only modest casualties for the horde. Then the horde spreads out, hits Lothering some days later, then ... vanishes . FOR A YEAR! Except for a few small bands. Which is utterly moronic. BW or Gaider cannot expect us to believe that a few templars and farmers from Lothering whipped out most of the darkspawn - a miracle feat even for a large army. More than that, Loghain is busy punishing nobles, trying to kill the remaining GW`s and apparently not concerned at all about the darkspawn. The same about Eamon and our Warden after Redcliffe is secured. Nobody in Ferelden gives a damn about the darkspawn horde until after the Landsmeet, when the Archdemon conveniently wakes up from her "little yearlong nap" (although we were able to see her in the Deep Roads very much active) and hits Redcliffe and Denerim. Now all this is crazy. The Archdemon is not stupid and started the campaign well. Then after Ostagar, when Ferelden is practically leaderless and in civil war, she doesn`t push for a fast conquest of the entire Ferelden and instead waits for I cannot even imagine what. More than that, we already know from Gaider`s book "The Stolen Throne" that there are several Deep Road entrances in Ferelden (Gaider was still working at "The Calling" by the time DA:O came out), so the Archdemon can practically attack everywhere in Ferelden unopposed. And it`s the same tune with our GW`s. Neither Alistair and the Warden are even a bit concerned about the horde`s advance and actions after Lothering. Because there isn`t a horde anymore. The Warden could have used the Blackstone Irregulars and the Mage`s Collective to track the horde, harrass the darkspawn, evacuate villages/farms. Then, after acquiring each group of allies they can be deployed all over Ferelden for the same tasks instead of sunbathing at their leisure at Redcliffe Castle. But of course, that would have meant a bit of planning and prioritizing. Like going straight to Redcliffe and the Circle first, to aquire a standing army of sorts in Ferelden, then pushing back the spread out horde while gathering the elves and dwarves. Would have required something like a war table from Inquisition for troop deployment and management. Not overly complicated, or at the level of A Total War game. Just enough for the feeling that it`s a real war waging out there, not a stage play. It would have worth it. Every little bit. Sadly, Bioware had another opinion... The Maker did that,he forced the horde to vanish.If you want to identify the Maker with BioWare is still the correct answer.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 24, 2017 2:44:59 GMT
The hell!? My entire post disappeared. Arrrrgggghh. Okay, sorry, gonna have to try again. Let`s see... The darkspawn horde is gathering in the Korcari Wilds, probably deploying from a Deep Road entrance located there. That is a clever move from the Archdemon, since they are only a few Chasind to deal with, and the horde is out of sight for Fereldans, thus buying time to came out in a large enough number to overwhelm Ferelden quickly. Unfortunately, Duncan passes by (probably alerted by somebody like Chasind, Fereldan soldiers, another GW - we have no idea) and discovers the horde. We see this in the Intro scene. The Royal Army is gathered and deployed at Ostagar. A few battles are won, while the horde is busy comming out from the Deep Roads. Then we have the last battle, which is one of the most idiotic battle scenes I ever saw in a game. Cailan has only a few hundred soldiers, and instead of remaining under cover to hit the darkspawn with arrows and spells, holding his line, the stupid king charges a much larger horde. Loghain retreats, the Royal Army is mostly whipped out with probably only modest casualties for the horde. Then the horde spreads out, hits Lothering some days later, then ... vanishes . FOR A YEAR! Except for a few small bands. It's more dramatic, I think, if Cailan's forces actually do put a pretty big dent in the horde that's amassing. By the "small" force sacrificing itself to buy the rest of the country a year, it becomes a heroic rallying point. "Remember the Ala-errr, Ostagar!" and all that. Lothering's destruction itself happens after you've done 1/5 of the plot missions, so that still means a good 3 months after their defeat, to spread from the mostly-uncivilized wilds. After that, each mission complete does show more dark clouds over the map representing the spread of the Blight, and there are more than 10 potential encounters with Darkspawn in the "wild"...twice as many as there are story missions, really. It'd probably get a little tedious to put too many in, so I'd just assume they happen more frequently then the game shows you. The banns are all commenting on it when you get to the Landsmeet, too. The Blight might have had a less active role, but it wasn't completely twiddling its thumbs. Also, gotta remember that Archdemons are smarter than the average bear. We know Urthemiel himself didn't take the field 'til near the end...heck, you see him in the Deep Roads gathering troops near Orzammar when you're after Branka. If you think about it from a strategy point, his actions mostly make sense. Let the arrogant mortals fight amongst themselves while he masses his forces, medium sized hordes taking territory all over until "bam!", they swoop in on the capital and take the country almost overnight. If the Wardens hadn't won Denerim, good luck stopping a whole nation full of Darkspawn. It was rather "lucky" from a plot perspective that Urthemiel waited until the Wardens had also finished their preparations, but that was also the moment the Fereldans themselves were the most exhausted from the civil war, so even that may have been a calculated risk. So, convenient? Yes. But plot hole? I don't think I'd go that far.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 24, 2017 5:53:32 GMT
The hell!? My entire post disappeared. Arrrrgggghh. Okay, sorry, gonna have to try again. Let`s see... The darkspawn horde is gathering in the Korcari Wilds, probably deploying from a Deep Road entrance located there. That is a clever move from the Archdemon, since they are only a few Chasind to deal with, and the horde is out of sight for Fereldans, thus buying time to came out in a large enough number to overwhelm Ferelden quickly. Unfortunately, Duncan passes by (probably alerted by somebody like Chasind, Fereldan soldiers, another GW - we have no idea) and discovers the horde. We see this in the Intro scene. The Royal Army is gathered and deployed at Ostagar. A few battles are won, while the horde is busy comming out from the Deep Roads. Then we have the last battle, which is one of the most idiotic battle scenes I ever saw in a game. Cailan has only a few hundred soldiers, and instead of remaining under cover to hit the darkspawn with arrows and spells, holding his line, the stupid king charges a much larger horde. Loghain retreats, the Royal Army is mostly whipped out with probably only modest casualties for the horde. Then the horde spreads out, hits Lothering some days later, then ... vanishes . FOR A YEAR! Except for a few small bands. It's more dramatic, I think, if Cailan's forces actually do put a pretty big dent in the horde that's amassing. By the "small" force sacrificing itself to buy the rest of the country a year, it becomes a heroic rallying point. "Remember the Ala-errr, Ostagar!" and all that. Lothering's destruction itself happens after you've done 1/5 of the plot missions, so that still means a good 3 months after their defeat, to spread from the mostly-uncivilized wilds. After that, each mission complete does show more dark clouds over the map representing the spread of the Blight, and there are more than 10 potential encounters with Darkspawn in the "wild"...twice as many as there are story missions, really. It'd probably get a little tedious to put too many in, so I'd just assume they happen more frequently then the game shows you. The banns are all commenting on it when you get to the Landsmeet, too. The Blight might have had a less active role, but it wasn't completely twiddling its thumbs. Also, gotta remember that Archdemons are smarter than the average bear. We know Urthemiel himself didn't take the field 'til near the end...heck, you see him in the Deep Roads gathering troops near Orzammar when you're after Branka. If you think about it from a strategy point, his actions mostly make sense. Let the arrogant mortals fight amongst themselves while he masses his forces, medium sized hordes taking territory all over until "bam!", they swoop in on the capital and take the country almost overnight. If the Wardens hadn't won Denerim, good luck stopping a whole nation full of Darkspawn. It was rather "lucky" from a plot perspective that Urthemiel waited until the Wardens had also finished their preparations, but that was also the moment the Fereldans themselves were the most exhausted from the civil war, so even that may have been a calculated risk. So, convenient? Yes. But plot hole? I don't think I'd go that far. To me It's a plot hole I adressed this same issue one the old BioWare forum.The Archdemon is a monster no matter how intelligent one can think it is he know nothing about the civil war that's going on, he did not waited on purpose because he was thinking to wait for a knowledge of facts he couldn't even possess.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 24, 2017 7:46:03 GMT
.....Sadly I can't disagree with anything especially Ostagar...that's why i believe that in terms consistency DAI and DA2(resurrections excluded)are better than DAO... That`s also my opinion. DA:O is a very good game with a good story, but with consistency issues. And the horde`s behavior is the biggest one. Freedom of choice is a typical Bioware feature in RPG`s. They used it in all previous RPG`s (BG games, NWN ...). What worked somehow in Baldur`s Gate (although Jaheira and Minsc are both nudging you toward their quests) is no longer manageable in DA:O, because Origin is a military campaign. Traveling from place to place in Ferelden is possible for two Grey Wardens (Alistair can sense and avoid darkspawn) shielded by Flemeth`s "something else to smell" but it takes time and has consequences: places destroyed, lives lost. My guess is that DA:O`s plan was changed several time. From a tale told by an older Morrigan to a straight campaign for a Cousland protagonist and finally to what we are playing - with six origin stories and freedom of choice. Problem is, BW created several inconsistencies because of the change of plans, they didn`t fixed them properly.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 24, 2017 8:06:27 GMT
To me It's a plot hole I adressed this same issue one the old BioWare forum.The Archdemon is a monster no matter how intelligent one can think it is he know nothing about the civil war that's going on, he did not waited on purpose because he was thinking to wait for a knowledge of facts he couldn't even possess. Me too . I was really confused the first time I played DA:O about how the Archdemon and the horde behaved. Raised the issue at the BW forum long ago, like you. Many players are not bothered by this. As for the Archdemon`s behavior, she is a monster (I use "she" because it`s a high dragon), but an intelligent one, and she can probably sense the mind of her minions, "seeing" the world through their eyes, like in Darkspawn Chronicles. She doesn`t care about kings and civil war, but she`ll probably direct the horde along roads toward big settlements first (towns, castles) to eliminate strong points. So after Lothering she would have hit probably Redcliffe, the Circle and Highever, then Denerim. Or Redcliffe and Denerim the same time, splitting the horde in two. Her plan is not just about Ferelden, but the whole Thedas, and she has no reason to delay mopping up Ferelden for a damn year. On the contrary, after Ostagar, Ferelden is practically defenseless, and she wants to destroy it asap, to concentrate on Orlais and the rest of Thedas without giving them time to prepare. That was her plan: find the weakest point and make a swift surprise attack.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 24, 2017 9:14:44 GMT
It's more dramatic, I think, if Cailan's forces actually do put a pretty big dent in the horde that's amassing. By the "small" force sacrificing itself to buy the rest of the country a year, it becomes a heroic rallying point. "Remember the Ala-errr, Ostagar!" and all that. Lothering's destruction itself happens after you've done 1/5 of the plot missions, so that still means a good 3 months after their defeat, to spread from the mostly-uncivilized wilds. After that, each mission complete does show more dark clouds over the map representing the spread of the Blight, and there are more than 10 potential encounters with Darkspawn in the "wild"...twice as many as there are story missions, really. It'd probably get a little tedious to put too many in, so I'd just assume they happen more frequently then the game shows you. The banns are all commenting on it when you get to the Landsmeet, too. The Blight might have had a less active role, but it wasn't completely twiddling its thumbs. Also, gotta remember that Archdemons are smarter than the average bear. We know Urthemiel himself didn't take the field 'til near the end...heck, you see him in the Deep Roads gathering troops near Orzammar when you're after Branka. If you think about it from a strategy point, his actions mostly make sense. Let the arrogant mortals fight amongst themselves while he masses his forces, medium sized hordes taking territory all over until "bam!", they swoop in on the capital and take the country almost overnight. If the Wardens hadn't won Denerim, good luck stopping a whole nation full of Darkspawn. It was rather "lucky" from a plot perspective that Urthemiel waited until the Wardens had also finished their preparations, but that was also the moment the Fereldans themselves were the most exhausted from the civil war, so even that may have been a calculated risk. So, convenient? Yes. But plot hole? I don't think I'd go that far. Well, it`s the biggest plot hole. If you pay attention to the lore available in the game, and the dialogues, it`s obvious that Bioware planned a typical medieval campaign. The darkspawn appeared in the Korcari Wilds. Cailan (as any medieval king) has a Royal army, but it`s not very big. Every noble has a small military force, so Ferelden`s "army" means gathering all these small bands together and making them a cohesive force. This takes a lot of time, since every noble gathers his scattered men, equips them and go to the king`s rallying point. So Cailan makes a call of arms for all Ferelden, and then he rushes to Ostagar, making it the rallying point for all the other noble`s contingents. We know this because the Highever contingent just reached Ostagar before the Cousland protagonist arrives, and because Arl Eamon is still at Redcliffe, but he sent word with Duncan that he`ll be there in a week. Why Ostagar? Because is a fortress, and a gateway into Ferelden proper. The battle at Ostagar is planned stupidly. First, there is that bridge, useful to lure there many darkspawn and collapse it. Then the scouts are reporting a big horde. So creating a fortified point where to place Cailan`s forces would have been a good first step. Then there should be plans for several retreat options for other prepared fortifications, making the horde to pay dearly for every step. Then the flanking maneuver, at the right moment. We can assume the Loghain messed with the battle plan intentionally, wanting Cailan dead. But then Loghain retreats straight to Denerim with the remaining forces. He logically intends to seize power, but has no plans to stop the advance of the horde. AND because of the messed up battle plan, Cailan is not able to inflict too much damage to the horde. It`s about numbers. Say 10 000 (at least) darkspawn against probably 500-600 soldiers, a few mages and under 100 mabari. More, it was probably just a part of the darkspawn forces available in the Korcari Wilds (why should the Archdemon commit more troops against such a small force?). Now, after Ostagar the horde mopped up the survivors, then entered Ferelden and folowed the road toward Lothering, arriving quite fast, not three months later. How do we know this? From Carver`s first dialogue line in DA2: "Why are you looking at us? We are running since Ostagar!" Which means he barely has time to reach their house before the darkspawn attack. We can expect Carver (with possibly Hawke) lost some time evading darkspawn after the battle, and finding the way home. Meanwhile, the Warden lost maybe two days recovering, but has Morrigan as a guide, and Alistair to sense nearby darkspawn, arriving at Lothering before Carver & Hawke. Which means 7-10 days max for the horde to reach Lothering and destroy it. Then, the Archdemon would have targeted Ferelden`s strong points, like Redcliffe, the Circle Tower, Highever, Amaranthine, Denerim, Gwaren. Since Redcliffe is nearest, it`s expected to be targeted first. The Archdemon has no special plans for Ferelden. What she wants is to destroy it very fast, to be able to concentrate on the rest of Thedas, starting probably with Orlais. Waiting for the humans to kill each other is utterly stupid. For her they are no more than ants. You don`t wait until an ant colony destroys itself; you`re just do it. But nothing happens. The Archdemon forgets about the whole campaign for an entire year, for no real reason. The game gently nudges you toward Redcliffe and the Circle Tower: Alistair urges you to seek out what happened to Eamon, and the templar commander in Lothering passes the news about the Right of Annulment against the Circle. I think that BW intended to include consequences for inaction or bad choices, like the destruction of Redcliffe and the Circle. Making possible for the Warden to lose the war. Then this was cancelled, and some of the ideas were used for Darkspawn Chronicles. This made DA:O`s campaign unfailable, but also unrealistic.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 24, 2017 10:00:53 GMT
About Jowan and his arrival at Redcliffe:
I consider the Warden always the last choice for a recruit from Duncan. He already found Jory and Daveth, and just tried one more time. So let`s consider the Amell Warden. S(he) leaves the Circle Tower about the same time as Jowan, but it`s plausible Duncan stopped at Redcliffe to speak with Eamon, because he passed the news to Cailan. Which means Eamon was well by the time Duncan passed by. So Jowan probably arrived at Redcliffe after Duncan left. I don`t remember exactly the dialogue with Jowan at Redcliffe dungeons, but I watched one online, and Jowan mentioned working for Loghain but not exactly meeting him ("I was told..."). Jowan might have been captured by Loghain`s men and persuaded to do the job by someone in Loghain`s name, like Howe. Who wasn`t at Ostagar. Thus is quite possible that Jowan was dispatched to Redcliffe right in time to prevent Eamon leaving for Ostagar, say around a week before the battle. Since Howe has a spy at Redcliffe by the time the Warden arrives, we can assume that he also had somebody in place, spying, before Ostagar.
All this add up to the conclusion that Loghain wanted to eliminate Eamon, preventing him to influence the outcome at Ostagar. He was probably at Cailan side all the time, but left instructions concerning Eamon to his men. Maybe Howe and his spy network were involved. Probably someone responsible with Eamon`s fate (Howe again?) seized the opportunity presented by Jowan.
Of course, all this means nothing if Jowan actually said he met Loghain in person. I plan a new PT for DA:O, so I`ll look after the dialogue.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 24, 2017 22:47:49 GMT
For brevity purposes, I'm not going to quote the other post, but it's worth noting that the Archdemon isn't just a monster. The lore establishes that they are the dragon "old gods" of Tevinter, and it's even noted that at least some of them are, in fact, male (and yes, all High Dragons are female...the fact that Archdemons can be male despite this should show you right there that they aren't just typical Tainted repitles). While the idea that a High Dragon, despite being a cunning creature, is probably not capable of human-level thought (it's worth noting that the "Andraste" dragon was suggested to at least be intelligent enough to understand that the presence of the worshiping cultists were beneficial to her), the Tevinter old gods, despite their bestial forms are intelligent, sapient beings. The idea that it could strategize and think tactically is not just legitimate, it's given precedent in previous The battle at Ostagar is planned stupidly. First, there is that bridge, useful to lure there many darkspawn and collapse it. Then the scouts are reporting a big horde. So creating a fortified point where to place Cailan`s forces would have been a good first step. Then there should be plans for several retreat options for other prepared fortifications, making the horde to pay dearly for every step. Then the flanking maneuver, at the right moment. [...] Now, after Ostagar the horde mopped up the survivors, then entered Ferelden and folowed the road toward Lothering, arriving quite fast, not three months later. How do we know this? From Carver`s first dialogue line in DA2: "Why are you looking at us? We are running since Ostagar!" Which means he barely has time to reach their house before the darkspawn attack. We can expect Carver (with possibly Hawke) lost some time evading darkspawn after the battle, and finding the way home. Meanwhile, the Warden lost maybe two days recovering, but has Morrigan as a guide, and Alistair to sense nearby darkspawn, arriving at Lothering before Carver & Hawke. Which means 7-10 days max for the horde to reach Lothering and destroy it. Then, the Archdemon would have targeted Ferelden`s strong points, like Redcliffe, the Circle Tower, Highever, Amaranthine, Denerim, Gwaren. Since Redcliffe is nearest, it`s expected to be targeted first. The Archdemon has no special plans for Ferelden. What she wants is to destroy it very fast, to be able to concentrate on the rest of Thedas, starting probably with Orlais. Waiting for the humans to kill each other is utterly stupid. For her they are no more than ants. You don`t wait until an ant colony destroys itself; you`re just do it. But nothing happens. The Archdemon forgets about the whole campaign for an entire year, for no real reason. The game gently nudges you toward Redcliffe and the Circle Tower: Alistair urges you to seek out what happened to Eamon, and the templar commander in Lothering passes the news about the Right of Annulment against the Circle. I think that BW intended to include consequences for inaction or bad choices, like the destruction of Redcliffe and the Circle. Making possible for the Warden to lose the war. Then this was cancelled, and some of the ideas were used for Darkspawn Chronicles. This made DA:O`s campaign unfailable, but also unrealistic. We don't know the exact time frame related to Origins that the DA2 prologue took place. Even if we assume that the Hawke family got out within a couple weeks of the defeat at Ostagar, it's not to say that Lothering had been completely overrun by then, and they were explicitly running into the Wilds until Flemeth showed up said "that's a bad idea", and dragoned them to a ship. Now, by that same token, we don't know that it took 3 months to take Lothering either. However, it ultimately comes down to the fact that we know that about 1 year passes between the opening of the game and the end of the game, we know that the intended order of the missions is: Prologue, Ostagar, Circle, Elves, Orzammar, Redcliffe/Ashes, Denerim, because that's how the campaign is described codex entries in later games. We also know that ~9 months should have passed between the prologue and the Orazammar section, because of circumstances in the Dwarf Noble Origin. So whether you think the Archdemon's actions were sound or not, they are what they are. And the point still stands, thinking they're unrealistic does not make them a plot hole.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 25, 2017 8:58:19 GMT
For brevity purposes, I'm not going to quote the other post, but it's worth noting that the Archdemon isn't just a monster. The lore establishes that they are the dragon "old gods" of Tevinter, and it's even noted that at least some of them are, in fact, male (and yes, all High Dragons are female...the fact that Archdemons can be male despite this should show you right there that they aren't just typical Tainted repitles). While the idea that a High Dragon, despite being a cunning creature, is probably not capable of human-level thought (it's worth noting that the "Andraste" dragon was suggested to at least be intelligent enough to understand that the presence of the worshiping cultists were beneficial to her), the Tevinter old gods, despite their bestial forms are intelligent, sapient beings. The idea that it could strategize and think tactically is not just legitimate, it's given precedent in previous We don't know the exact time frame related to Origins that the DA2 prologue took place. Even if we assume that the Hawke family got out within a couple weeks of the defeat at Ostagar, it's not to say that Lothering had been completely overrun by then, and they were explicitly running into the Wilds until Flemeth showed up said "that's a bad idea", and dragoned them to a ship. Now, by that same token, we don't know that it took 3 months to take Lothering either. However, it ultimately comes down to the fact that we know that about 1 year passes between the opening of the game and the end of the game, we know that the intended order of the missions is: Prologue, Ostagar, Circle, Elves, Orzammar, Redcliffe/Ashes, Denerim, because that's how the campaign is described codex entries in later games. We also know that ~9 months should have passed between the prologue and the Orazammar section, because of circumstances in the Dwarf Noble Origin. So whether you think the Archdemon's actions were sound or not, they are what they are. And the point still stands, thinking they're unrealistic does not make them a plot hole. Dragon Age: Origins has a completely messed up timeline after Lothering. All because Bioware wanted "freedom of choice" for the quests concerning gathering allies. It`s more like freedom of mess, because it`s completely unrealistic. For instance, the Warden can pack her/his things and go straight to Orzamar, spending at least a couple of months in the Deep Roads, leaving Ferelden during a darkspawn invasion. The quest you`ve mentioned at Ostagar, about the Aeducan son is another proof that BW had a sequential campaign planned for DA:O, with Orzamar being the last stop in Act 1. I have played a dwarven noble several times, and once I did the quest with the noble-hunters. My Aeducan got exiled, went to Ostagar, and after Lothering came straight back at Orzamar, eager for a little "chat" with dear brother Bhelen, only to discover he has a son in the meantime. And it`s the same for a casteless dwarf with her/his sister Rica`s son. Now that is utterly stupid, and a big plot hole. Like Oghren`s line after choosing the Orzamar King about seeing the sky first time. My Warden once recruited Oghren, left Orzamar for the surface, did a lot of quests all over the Ferelden including a visit at Redcliffe tavern, and Oghren never once mentioned the sky or Felsi. The Aeducan sons and Oghren`s behavior make sense only if Orzamar is the last stop for the Warden. In that case the timeline is consistent. Inconsistencies as such after Lothering all points to a similar conclusion: Bioware initially planned a kind of forced path for DA:O, meaning the Warden initially trying to stay ahead of the invading darkspawn horde, warning the locals about the impending assault, gathering and deploying allies to help contain the horde, and eventually helping them fight off the darkspawn. BW`s original plan possibly made some areas unavailable right after Lothering. For Instance, let`s say the horde already starts to encircle Lothering, blocking the way toward Denerim, so the Warden has no choice than going to Redcliffe. By the way, this is consistent with the letter Leandra receives about the fate of Lothering from elder Miriam - who escaped to Redcliffe. By the way, it`s possible that the original Redcliffe quest was about defending against darkspawn, not undead. The undead story was added later as a device to "explain" why the Archdemon chose not to attack the castle. Or just for fun (other foes than darkspawn?). I have no clue. Sure, it was integrated decently in the story - a young mage eager to help his father, a demon making a deal. The Archdemon is intelligent, but has other plans than humans, and different resources and logistical problems. For instance, human prisoners are vital for the campaign - for creating new broodmothers. The horde must also be quite large, since the previous Blight was some 400 years before. The Archdemon has no reason to wait out a civil war in Ferelden, since Urtemiel has the resources to overwhelm it. The book "The Last Flight" offers a good narative about what happens during a Blight - or read this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_BlightHawke escape route from Lothering make sense if you are considering that the horde already encircled the area, preventing any escape for those trapped. Stating that "Even if we assume that the Hawke family got out within a couple weeks of the defeat at Ostagar, it's not to say that Lothering had been completely overrun by then" is inconsistent with the story of DA2`s prologue. Hawke & Co are fighting all the time a lot of darkspawn, and ONLY darkspawn, from every direction. Barely escaping from Lothering (first dialogue). That means Lothering is already lost, not that they are running from a rabid bunny or squirrel. Stating "So whether you think the Archdemon's actions were sound or not, they are what they are. And the point still stands, thinking they're unrealistic does not make them a plot hole." means you are missing the point of this thread. This is about inconsistencies in DA:O`s storyline and plot. By the same reasoning, having a son in a month is not a plot hole, since "it happened". By that logic, there is no such thing as a plot hole in any game, since "things happened that way, I`ve seen them". If a character gives contradictory statements about the same event it`s also not a plot hole, s(he) is just confused. Problem is, DA:O is a story created by a group of writers who had to re-write it several times. Inconsistencies are expected to happen in such cases - each writer being responsible with only parts of the overall story.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 25, 2017 18:52:39 GMT
To me It's a plot hole I adressed this same issue one the old BioWare forum.The Archdemon is a monster no matter how intelligent one can think it is he know nothing about the civil war that's going on, he did not waited on purpose because he was thinking to wait for a knowledge of facts he couldn't even possess. Me too . I was really confused the first time I played DA:O about how the Archdemon and the horde behaved. Raised the issue at the BW forum long ago, like you. Many players are not bothered by this. As for the Archdemon`s behavior, she is a monster (I use "she" because it`s a high dragon), but an intelligent one, and she can probably sense the mind of her minions, "seeing" the world through their eyes, like in Darkspawn Chronicles. She doesn`t care about kings and civil war, but she`ll probably direct the horde along roads toward big settlements first (towns, castles) to eliminate strong points. So after Lothering she would have hit probably Redcliffe, the Circle and Highever, then Denerim. Or Redcliffe and Denerim the same time, splitting the horde in two. Her plan is not just about Ferelden, but the whole Thedas, and she has no reason to delay mopping up Ferelden for a damn year. On the contrary, after Ostagar, Ferelden is practically defenseless, and she wants to destroy it asap, to concentrate on Orlais and the rest of Thedas without giving them time to prepare. That was her plan: find the weakest point and make a swift surprise attack. Tevinter believed that all old gods were males except for Razikale,I don't know how they knew that other than the lore saying that some of them were able to speak with them via dreams. Archdemons seem to be able to collect informations from previous blights,I presume they aquire this informations from the darkspawns since they don't die of old age and some of them are around since the first blight and they give all these info to every new Archdemon that they create,that's how this Urthemiel knew which was the better place to attack.
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Post by Kei on Jan 27, 2017 16:22:53 GMT
Plot Hole to demonstrate:
A)The Dark ritual mechanics shouldn't work.
Demonstration of statement A ------------------------------------------
DATA 1)The Archdemon is supposed to be a tainted/corrupted OldGod. 2)You kill him and his soul jumps to another tainted body.
Questions -But why a TAINTED body?
Hypotesis -Does the taint corrupt the very soul? (Very big implications here for all grey Wardens too)
Confirmation of Hypotesis -If only the body is corrupted by the taint, then the soul of the Old god should be free to go anywhere when the Archdemon is slained however it is not,So the soul must be in itself tainted when it is within a corrupted host.
Conclusion -Therefore taking said soul from a tainted vessel(Archdemon) and putting it into another tainted vessel(child of a GW) shouldn't result in an uncorrupted being but into another Archdemon.
In game evidences for A demonstration -The Architect used the GW blood to awaken the original Urthemiel but only managed to create an Archdemon therefore the GW immunity should not be able to prevent the birth of an Archdemon.
Point A proved.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 17:07:31 GMT
Plot Hole to demonstrate: ... Except when it`s done by Bioware ... Since they wrote the plot, of course it`s possible Seriously now, I developed an explanation some times ago about the DA universe and the connection between the Fade and Thedas. Something similar to Brandon Sanderson`s formula of consistent magic systems. Of course, it has nothing to do with the way Bioware is imagining the DA universe. But make sense to me. Sort of. My idea is that in the DA universe, the Fade is the reality, and Thedas is just a more consistent Fade creation, with stable rules for objects, forces, bodies and so on. The Fade is some kind of energy field, which can be used to create, shape and change creations. Every living being has a soul who is in fact a fade creature, capable to use the field`s energy for their purpose. But these "soul" fade creatures are different, so every creature behaves differently and use the fade energy also differently. Mages have souls with the ability to connect with the fade in a similar manner to the creatures outside Thedas, and so they are capable to change the rules around them, creating fire, ice, electricity. Or to heal (channel fade directly into a body, restoring it). When they are possessed by demons/spirits, there is a fusion of the two fade creatures (a fusion of two different souls). Like Anders said that there is no distinction between Justice and himself. More than that, every creature in Thedas can be possessed, including non-mage humans. Remember Herren in Denerim, possessed by a desire demon. Or the cat in the Honnleath basement, possessed by another desire demon. Or the undead (all possessed), the possessed threes in the Brecilian forest. And so on. The Veil is probably a kind of barrier limiting the exchange between Thedas and the Fade, which means that only souls "strong" enough can channel the fade energy consciously in different ways. Just a bit of fun thinking from my part...
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Post by heliosdisciple on Mar 5, 2017 16:35:20 GMT
The archdemons like to take their time, apparently. The First Blight had a hundred years to run wild before the Wardens were created and didn't annihilate all of Thedas.
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Post by dayze on Mar 6, 2017 2:40:35 GMT
Plot Hole to demonstrate: A)The Dark ritual mechanics shouldn't work. Demonstration of statement A ------------------------------------------ DATA 1)The Archdemon is supposed to be a tainted/corrupted OldGod. 2)You kill him and his soul jumps to another tainted body. Questions -But why a TAINTED body? Hypotesis -Does the taint corrupt the very soul? (Very big implications here for all grey Wardens too) Confirmation of Hypotesis -If only the body is corrupted by the taint, then the soul of the Old god should be free to go anywhere when the Archdemon is slained however it is not,So the soul must be in itself tainted when it is within a corrupted host. Conclusion -Therefore taking said soul from a tainted vessel(Archdemon) and putting it into another tainted vessel(child of a GW) shouldn't result in an uncorrupted being but into another Archdemon. In game evidences for A demonstration -The Architect used the GW blood to awaken the original Urthemiel but only managed to create an Archdemon therefore the GW immunity should not be able to prevent the birth of an Archdemon. Point A proved. According to Prince; it was said the ritual of the joining was to "improve" the potency of the taint and that's how you get warden's instead of ghouls by in essence being "more" corrupted or some such sort of thing? If so; perhaps that's what Archdemon's actually are. A "ghoul" version of the old gods? And the OG's born into human bodies via warden taint are essentially "Grey Warden's" themselves and that's why they don't come out as ghouls? Though this does bring up some pretty serious questions about the true nature of the archdemon's and the old gods.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 6, 2017 15:08:04 GMT
The Dog in WH was a plot hole for me. He was acting as if he knew who Morrigan was when he has never meet her.
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Post by Kei on Mar 6, 2017 15:42:14 GMT
According to Prince; it was said the ritual of the joining was to "improve" the potency of the taint and that's how you get warden's instead of ghouls by in essence being "more" corrupted or some such sort of thing? If so; perhaps that's what Archdemon's actually are. A "ghoul" version of the old gods? And the OG's born into human bodies via warden taint are essentially "Grey Warden's" themselves and that's why they don't come out as ghouls? Though this does bring up some pretty serious questions about the true nature of the archdemon's and the old gods. I was already aware of the mechanics involved into becoming a GW but what they have to do with the Archdemons? An AD is not classified as a ghoul because it's not a ghoul,ghouls have a very limited lifespawn(few years)AD don't die until they are killed. An AD is nothing more but the soul of an old god inside a darkspawn vessel.
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