helios969
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Post by helios969 on Dec 19, 2016 13:09:48 GMT
First, reading through these past ten pages I'm fairly impressed by the number of level-headed and insightful posts with minimal negativity. This would never have happened on the old forums, so maybe their closure wasn't such a bad thing.
This is a difficult one for me to weigh in on since I do not know any trans people personally, but I do consider empathy one of my strongest attributes. If I were in that category, having gone through what I would think with all the surgeries and therapies a painful (physically and emotionally) transition would want to be identified as male/female and not as 'that person who was x and became y'. And to extend this further if I were this VA, I don't think I would want to be typecast as the transgendered VA who does transgendered characters. Then again maybe I'm just filtering this all through my own personality matrix and/or oversimplifying. People tend to be rather complex, especially when it comes to our motivations and agendas.
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Post by mrjack on Dec 19, 2016 13:17:40 GMT
Trans characters in Mass Effect? Ridiculous. Body dysmorphia is a mental condition. I imagine that in the future we would have some kind of cure for this so that people can escape the torment of thinking they're something they're not. Krem. Ugh. Krem is a woman. What is the point of all the male pronouns? How are men and women treated differently in Dragon Age anyway? Such pointless foolishness. She has tits and bleeds monthly. No man does that. She is simply pretending. Why encourage her behavior by going along with it? People that suffer from this condition need psychological treatment. Not surgery. Post op regret is a real thing. Google it. What would surgery accomplish anyway? Going under the knife to resemble something doesn't turn you into it. I don't want this stuff in my games. Please don't ban me ![=]](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/yNrAXjkTcPPBLrsOOiCC.png) I'll ignore the majority of this tirade where you reduce femaleness to breasts and menstruation but I will point out that you are conflating Body Dysmorphic Disorder (which has nothing to do with gender identity) and Gender Dysphoria. I'll let you read up on the difference between the two but to help you along, here's a handy quote: So you can argue that the world is flat or only ten thousand years old but I'll listen to the scientists. Finally, if you don't want to play games with this "stuff" in them, play something else. I don't like to see the player character beat sex workers to death with a baseball bat so I don't play GTA games. I'm not asking them to change their games to suit me. |
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 19, 2016 13:22:16 GMT
I'm quite enjoying this thread, I'm actually rather proud of this community for having a meaningful conversation without burning the place down,
'way to go BSN'...  |
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 19, 2016 13:38:53 GMT
I'm quite enjoying this thread, I'm actually rather proud of this community for having a meaningful conversation without burning the place down,
'way to go BSN'... Well, we are only 10 pages in. it is around 13-14 where people start repeat everything and people start to get tired that the "burn, maim, kill" mentality start to set in.  |
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Post by Natashina on Dec 19, 2016 13:44:16 GMT
I'm quite enjoying this thread, I'm actually rather proud of this community for having a meaningful conversation without burning the place down,
'way to go BSN'... Well, we are only 10 pages in. it is around 13-14 where people start repeat everything and people start to get tired that the "burn, maim, kill" mentality start to set in. I give it until page 20. It does help that the mods are keeping a close eye on things. I don't have to agree with the other posters. I will do everything I can to prevent a free-for-all and still have this thread open. We're better than the modbots.  |
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Post by fialka on Dec 19, 2016 14:05:59 GMT
Trans characters in Mass Effect? Ridiculous. Body dysmorphia is a mental condition. I imagine that in the future we would have some kind of cure for this so that people can escape the torment of thinking they're something they're not. Krem. Ugh. Krem is a woman. What is the point of all the male pronouns? How are men and women treated differently in Dragon Age anyway? Such pointless foolishness. She has tits and bleeds monthly. No man does that. She is simply pretending. Why encourage her behavior by going along with it? People that suffer from this condition need psychological treatment. Not surgery. Post op regret is a real thing. Google it. What would surgery accomplish anyway? Going under the knife to resemble something doesn't turn you into it. I don't want this stuff in my games. Please don't ban me ASDAKFKKKKJJ... That is a literal representation of the out-loud sound I made after I read this post. And then I told myself 'don't bother, move on...' Clearly, it didn't work. Anyway, I'm going to pass on commenting about most of what's here, but there's one thing I'd like to address, because I see it too often. When it come to which pronoun someone wants to use for themselves... What the fuck do you care? Seriously. Calling someone a 'he' just because that person wants you to - does it affect you in any way personally? Diminish the quality of your life? Ruin your day? And don't give me that pseudo-altruistic bullshit about not wanting to 'encourage' someone's delusions or whatever. If you truly believe that gender dysphoria is a psychological condition that needs to be cured (I have to wonder, do you feel that 'gay' can be cured too?) the last thing that person needs is some random asshole telling them who they are, and belittling and passing judgement on them. If you truly believe it's a psychological condition, maybe you leave that person's treatment to an actual psychologist and stay out of it. Or at least, read up on some actual psychology before you determine that it's okay to dismiss someone's identity just to prove a point. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 14:20:46 GMT
I agree with fialka. Who cares. It literally does not cost you a thing to use someone's preferred pronoun and it means a lot to them. It seems so petty when people refuse to do it.
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Post by Syv on Dec 19, 2016 14:48:30 GMT
There is something that bothers me with the way progressives and liberals try to dictate things, try to give moralistic lessons not really legetimate by the way. The more you will push that way, the more you will see resistance. it is already happening in many places. Many folks are tired of you.
I do think that people are FREE to say she or he ! You want to say he to be nice, it's your choice. But other people aren't forced to do so. Maybe it seems petty to you, and to each its thoughts but for the other guy, he considers simply the nature you were born as the truth, a truth that can be refered to a fact, the way people were worn. If a guy wants to believe that he is a woman, it's okay, but that's up to other people to choose if they want to follow his thoughts or not. YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO THINK OTHERWISE ! GOT IT ? You have no fucking any legitimy to forbid them to think that way, a belief based on a FACT. Nature is not on your side, except if you consider that using science and modifying your genitals is enough to consider that it is on yours. And again, it's up to each to decide.
No one cares about your fucking moralistic lessons.
That's where Bioware messed up. They tried to push the idea that Krem was a woman, and that it wasn't up for discussion. They brought it themself. It wasn't a neutral discussion, where Bull just state that he considers her as such, he was preaching on us, he was pushing his values without offering us a way to respond. Bioware was preaching, we know how much they love claiming they are progressive during convention,, how much they love being involved into politics. But most people do not want that, and most people do not want to be teached things about social identity. I sure do not want that crap in my video games.
Forcing a guy to say he about Krem on a forum, a character by the way, where you could be banned forthat in the last Bsn was just astonishing. Couldn't believe it. Not only Bioware didn't change my mind, but it puts a will of resistance in my mind. The more you will try to push your ideologies on me, the more I will spit on you. I'm not going to change because you arbitrally decide to push your fucking moralization over me. Keep it to yourself.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 19, 2016 15:01:56 GMT
There is something that bothers me with the way progressives and liberals try to dictate things... I'm not convinced it is so much about being 'progressive or liberal'. I think it is about people not being mean to each other. If someone identifies as 'she' then they clearly feel that is the appropriate pronoun, and if I am aware of that, I don't see why it would be reasonable to argue it. No-one is forced to do that, just as no-one is forced to be polite in public. So I don't understand why this would be a matter for anger or to cause anyone bother. It's just being considerate, surely? |
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Dec 19, 2016 15:23:21 GMT
Trans characters in Mass Effect? Ridiculous. Body dysmorphia is a mental condition. I imagine that in the future we would have some kind of cure for this so that people can escape the torment of thinking they're something they're not. Krem. Ugh. Krem is a woman. What is the point of all the male pronouns? How are men and women treated differently in Dragon Age anyway? Such pointless foolishness. She has tits and bleeds monthly. No man does that. She is simply pretending. Why encourage her behavior by going along with it? People that suffer from this condition need psychological treatment. Not surgery. Post op regret is a real thing. Google it. What would surgery accomplish anyway? Going under the knife to resemble something doesn't turn you into it. I don't want this stuff in my games. Please don't ban me I'll ignore the majority of this tirade where you reduce femaleness to breasts and menstruation but I will point out that you are conflating Body Dysmorphic Disorder (which has nothing to do with gender identity) and Gender Dysphoria. I'll let you read up on the difference between the two but to help you along, here's a handy quote: So you can argue that the world is flat or only ten thousand years old but I'll listen to the scientists. Finally, if you don't want to play games with this "stuff" in them, play something else. I don't like to see the player character beat sex workers to death with a baseball bat so I don't play GTA games. I'm not asking them to change their games to suit me. Thank you for correcting me. The correct term is Gender Identity Disorder. Also known as Gender Dysphoria. There's a significant effort to destigmatize the issue hence the attempt to change the name. I didn't reduce femaleness to breasts and menstruation. I simply pointed out two obvious characteristics of women that differentiate them from men. You have the freedom as a player to beat hookers to death in GTA but it's not required for you to do so. Nor is it encouraged in any way. It's entirely up to you as the player to decide whether or not you want to engage in such activity. Krem makes no sense in the Dragon Age setting. There's nothing a man can do in the setting that a woman can't also do. So what exactly does it mean for a woman to live as a man in Dragon Age? Aside from the use of male pronouns how different would her life be? Maybe there are civilizations that treat men and women very differently that we haven't been exposed to yet but what would be the reason for this if both sexes are equal in ability? Krem and her whole thing is a level of foolishness that I'd rather not see in games im interested in. The developers should take their world building a little more seriously. Just because something is made up doesn't mean that it doesn't have to make sense. |
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Post by luzarius on Dec 19, 2016 15:39:02 GMT
- If I hear anyone talk about "pronouns" in the game, I'm not buying it.
- If I hear about a transgender bathroom aboard the ship, I'm not buying it.
- If they force a liberal college course into the game taught by a transgender NPC, I'm not buying it.
- Adding a transgender character will break immersion since it was never part of the original vision of Mass Effect.
But, in all fairness I have to ask:
How can the game introduce a transgender into Mass Effect Andromeda without it coming off as tokenistic pandering?
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Expletive: Damn it, master, I am an assassination droid... not a dictionary!
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Post by HK90210 on Dec 19, 2016 15:39:07 GMT
There's not really much to debate. You either accept someone for who they are or you reject them. Unless you really think there is a chance that you could be won over to believe the other side of the "argument", you're just making someone else feel like they're not a valid human being. Is it really so important that you get to do this is in a video game? It might just seem like an academic discussion but its not your identity on trial. Rejecting someone's feelings/decisions ≠ rejecting their whole person. My father was a smoker all his life, and it's what killed him in the end. I told him that I thought he should stop, and I always left the room when he lit a cigarette. But I never stopped loving him and I miss him to this day. It's been nearly a decade and there's a lot I wish he had been present for. But all the same I disagreed with the way he lived his life, and he understood that and respected my opinion, even as he smoked himself into an early grave. I can disagree with an aspect of a person's life, and even as aspect of what their conception of their identity is, without rejecting them completely, or loving them less. And I do feel compassion for those who struggle with their gender. But my way of showing compassion isn't to buy into what I consider a deluded way of thinking. The same way I wouldn't tell an anorexic person that their eating habits are just fine. Also, don't assume that just because I disagree and want to say my piece that I'm close-minded. I always try to keep an open mind to the arguments of the other side. That's hard to do when you're firm in your beliefs, but I make a conscious effort to do so. Personally, I found Iron Bull's explanation of gender a fascinating part of Qunari culture that went very well with Sten's whole "You're a warrior, therefor you can't be a woman" thing in DA:O with female Wardens. It's not like I'm trying to squash debate. I WANT Iron Bull to say what he thinks about gender. I WANT to hear his opinion. But I also want the ability to say that I disagree(if, in fact, I do). And as I said before, your identity is not entirely up to you. Other people factor into it. I can think I'm a poor, likable guy with a great sense of humor and a heart of gold. But if the people around me see that I have plenty of money, can't tell a joke to save my life, and treat other people like dirt, my conception of my identity doesn't really mean much. And my friends would be doing me a disservice if they didn't call me out on those misconceptions. A try my best to ground my identity in objective reality, rather than my subjective feelings. Sometimes I fail, but there you go. And if you're going to ask why it's important that I'm able to voice my opinion in a video game, I'd like to ask why it's important to have transsexuals in said video game. Why are transsexuals allowed to have a voice in the game, but those who feel gender is rooted in biological fact rather than subjective feelings, don't deserve the same courtesy. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 15:40:18 GMT
Trans characters in Mass Effect? Ridiculous. Body dysmorphia is a mental condition. I imagine that in the future we would have some kind of cure for this so that people can escape the torment of thinking they're something they're not. Krem. Ugh. Krem is a woman. What is the point of all the male pronouns? How are men and women treated differently in Dragon Age anyway? Such pointless foolishness. She has tits and bleeds monthly. No man does that. She is simply pretending. Why encourage her behavior by going along with it? People that suffer from this condition need psychological treatment. Not surgery. Post op regret is a real thing. Google it. What would surgery accomplish anyway? Going under the knife to resemble something doesn't turn you into it. I don't want this stuff in my games. Please don't ban me
Ok thank you so much for existing!  you seem to have the right balance between like... nice and different and I can ask you questions 
So yeah, I have questions about things
You mentioned body/gender dysmorphia, so lets go with that for a moment and ill phrase my questions so I can ask stuff about what you think instead of contradicting it even though I disagree with you
So...
You said that it was a mental condition... lots and lots and lots of characters (and also real people) have different mental conditions to gender dysmorphia As a rather er eh example, lets go with the Joker and Harley Quinn... not because Harley Quinn is super hawt or anything  Both of them have mental conditions (gender dysmorphia not being one of them... or at least I dont think so), theyre both pretty nuts and stuff They are also in need of psychological treatment Would you also be against them featuring in a video game with their mental conditions, or is the "I dont want this stuff in my games" thing only true for transgenders for some reason??? Like do you have an overall bias towards mental conditions or is it just a bias towards transgenders???
You think its all pointless and mumbo jumbo... but how are you affected by it??? How does what people call themselves affect you and what you choose to call yourself, even if you disagree with their existence??? This isnt me saying "youre not affected by it", this is me asking how it affects you
Are you bothered by a transgender person in a video game??? If so, why??? People who call themselves transgender also exist in reality as well as in video games, so are you bothered by them existing in reality too??? Also with avoidable/skippable conversations are you still bothered by it??? (that is if you are actually bothered)
Other things to do with gender and sex and sexual tastes and stuff like that could be considered mental conditions (sadism and masochism for example)... like being transgender, being a sadist or a masochist can bring people happiness (and a very fun sex life... not that I would have any experience  ) do you think those are pointless too and that people are pretending to enjoy them???
Also As I said before somewhere having transgender people in games and stuff is likely to have a good like response from transgender people... would it bother you if you would take away peoples happiness by not having them included in games???
Would ask other people on the forum but people who will probably share your views... arent the nicest people on the forum... or are people who I would ever talk to, so im asking you hope you dont mind answering!
I'm quite enjoying this thread, I'm actually rather proud of this community for having a meaningful conversation without burning the place down,
'way to go BSN'...
Me too maybe because its here rather in the off topic section its turned out better than it would do otherwise... but yup im enjoying the thread too
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 15:49:37 GMT
There is something that bothers me with the way progressives and liberals try to dictate things, try to give moralistic lessons not really legetimate by the way. The more you will push that way, the more you will see resistance. it is already happening in many places. Many folks are tired of you. I do think that people are FREE to say she or he ! You want to say he to be nice, it's your choice. But other people aren't forced to do so. Maybe it seems petty to you, and to each its thoughts but for the other guy, he considers simply the nature you were born as the truth, a truth that can be refered to a fact, the way people were worn. If a guy wants to believe that he is a woman, it's okay, but that's up to other people to choose if they want to follow his thoughts or not. YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO THINK OTHERWISE ! GOT IT ? You have no fucking any legitimy to forbid them to think that way, a belief based on a FACT. Nature is not on your side, except if you consider that using science and modifying your genitals is enough to consider that it is on yours. And again, it's up to each to decide. No one cares about your fucking moralistic lessons. That's where Bioware messed up. They tried to push the idea that Krem was a woman, and that it wasn't up for discussion. They brought it themself. It wasn't a neutral discussion, where Bull just state that he considers her as such, he was preaching on us, he was pushing his values without offering us a way to respond. Bioware was preaching, we know how much they love claiming they are progressive during convention,, how much they love being involved into politics. But most people do not want that, and most people do not want to be teached things about social identity. I sure do not want that crap in my video games. Forcing a guy to say he about Krem on a forum, a character by the way, where you could be banned forthat in the last Bsn was just astonishing. Couldn't believe it. Not only Bioware didn't change my mind, but it puts a will of resistance in my mind. The more you will try to push your ideologies on me, the more I will spit on you. I'm not going to change because you arbitrally decide to push your fucking moralization over me. Keep it to yourself. First of all, dial back the cursing. You want to have a discussion? Do it with respect. Why are you so angry over this? Seriously, what someone's preferred pronoun is has ZERO effect on you outside of a single syllable. If you choose not to support this, you don't have to. No one is forcing you to do anything. But you can't seriously expect to argue with someone about their own identity and then come off looking like the bigger person. I also love how you will loudly profess how much you disagree about the concept of transgenderism in a thread about transgenderism and then get all morally outraged when people express opposing views. You can't claim "Keep it to yourself" when you yourself are doing everything BUT keeping your own opinion to yourself. That flows in both directions. Either voice your opinion and expect others to do so as well or, if you want others to keep it themselves, practice what you preach. Also, if you are going to use "science" to back up your argument, make sure you are up to date on the actual science. Otherwise you come across as totally unprepared for the discussion. Thank you for correcting me. The correct term is Gender Identity Disorder. Also known as Gender Dysphoria. There's a significant effort to destigmatize the issue hence the attempt to change the name. I didn't reduce femaleness to breasts and menstruation. I simply pointed out two obvious characteristics of women that differentiate them from men. You have the freedom as a player to beat hookers to death in GTA but it's not required for you to do so. Nor is it encouraged in any way. It's entirely up to you as the player to decide whether or not you want to engage in such activity. Krem makes no sense in the Dragon Age setting. There's nothing a man can do in the setting that a woman can't also do. So what exactly does it mean for a woman to live as a man in Dragon Age? Aside from the use of male pronouns how different would her life be? Maybe there are civilizations that treat men and women very differently that we haven't been exposed to yet but what would be the reason for this if both sexes are equal in ability? Krem and her whole thing is a level of foolishness that I'd rather not see in games im interested in. The developers should take their world building a little more seriously. Just because something is made up doesn't mean that it doesn't have to make sense. Except that men and women ARE treated differently in Tevinter. That was a huge part of his backstory. This is why I eyeroll when people say that all Krem talked about was his gender. His story gave us some new insights on Tevinter and how the culture there works for non-mages. That was kind of the point. How he couldn't live the life he wanted in Tevinter because of the access that women have to the military and that they wouldn't see him as a male. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 15:53:44 GMT
There is something that bothers me with the way progressives and liberals try to dictate things... I'm not convinced it is so much about being 'progressive or liberal'. I think it is about people not being mean to each other. If someone identifies as 'she' then they clearly feel that is the appropriate pronoun, and if I am aware of that, I don't see why it would be reasonable to argue it. No-one is forced to do that, just as no-one is forced to be polite in public. So I don't understand why this would be a matter for anger or to cause anyone bother. It's just being considerate, surely?
Also like
Ill admit im not sure what im talking about here (have nothing to do with any of it) but Am I the only one who thinks surely entire groups of people who arent like violent groups of people cant be that bad???
I actually remember posting something quite a while ago where I pointed out the importance of the word some
Some is an important word I guess
But like... so many people miss it out 
Also I kinda view it like this... I went shopping with my girlfriend on saturday and when we were in a store someone pushed past her and my girlfriend being an incredibly blunt person just kinda gave a sarcastic/correcting "'scuse me" to them... kinda view it like that in a way, just correcting someone when they do or say something wrong... I dont see how people can force people to say things, but I could understand people wanting to correct it
Its like someone calling you something you arent, and theres nothing wrong with correcting someone if they call them the wrong thing... no harm to anyone... right??? and using the pronoun someone wants causes no harm either... like, my name is Lauren, and if I walked up to someone and was like "Hi, my name is Lauren" and they said "No your name is Sarah" and were COMPLETELY fixed on calling me Sarah even though my name is Lauren id be like "whats wrong with you???"
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 19, 2016 15:56:02 GMT
- If I hear anyone talk about "pronouns" in the game, I'm not buying it. - If I hear about a transgender bathroom aboard the ship, I'm not buying it. - If they force a liberal college course into the game taught by a transgender NPC, I'm not buying it. - Adding a transgender character will break immersion since it was never part of the original vision of Mass Effect. But, in all fairness I have to ask: How can the game introduce a transgender into Mass Effect Andromeda without it coming off as tokenistic pandering?Hi luzarius, we were expecting you . You can buy games based on your choices, that's up to you. I'll attempt to answer your last point. First, we don't actually know whether MEA will contain a trans character, all of this is just speculation. Introducing a trans character is no more tokenistic than a black / white / male / female / human / krogan / gay / straight character, if that character has an interesting story to tell within the Mass Effect setting. As for a trans character breaking immersion, that is no more a thing than introducing female Turians, Ashley with long hair, and thermal clips, none of which were part of the original vision of Mass Effect. |
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HK90210
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Expletive: Damn it, master, I am an assassination droid... not a dictionary!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by HK90210 on Dec 19, 2016 15:58:10 GMT
So long as we're on pronouns, I thought this video would be a good additive to the discussion. Backstory: Jordan Peterson is a tenured professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. Not just some guy with a webcam and opinions. He has gotten into a bit of a quagmire by disagreeing with the the political left on this issue. FYI: He's not polite in this video, and he does say a swear word or two. But he does articulate his arguments well, in my opinion. EDIT: Also, the legislation he refers to in the video is Bill C-16 of 2016. |
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Post by Syv on Dec 19, 2016 16:00:37 GMT
There is something that bothers me with the way progressives and liberals try to dictate things... I'm not convinced it is so much about being 'progressive or liberal'. I think it is about people not being mean to each other. If someone identifies as 'she' then they clearly feel that is the appropriate pronoun, and if I am aware of that, I don't see why it would be reasonable to argue it. No-one is forced to do that, just as no-one is forced to be polite in public. So I don't understand why this would be a matter for anger or to cause anyone bother. It's just being considerate, surely? Yes it is about liberals and progressives. Bioware among them, actively trying to push an opinion . People were banned because they said he about Krem for example. That doesn't shock you ? We are forcing them to say she about Krem, something that is not based on a FACT but opinions, that is totally up to debate. That's where it's totally illegetimate and crazy. When you are franckly punished for being in the truth ? Why should we be forced to say he ? Yes, i imagine that it is not pleasing, but could someone be considered as bad guys, as " assholes, just because he stays true to a fact in his opinions ? It's not like they wanted to insult, they just refuse to follow a belief that they do not see themself. We are not going to convince them with some illegetimate laws that arbitrally force them to use that pronoun in the society for example. It's a good thing to try to improve things, to be encouraged to change behaviors, but be careful with not trying to dictate things in a ridiculous way. That's where it goes too far. It's less about being polite to me at this point, it's more about pushing an ideology that is only based on opinions from a vocal side. And if people don't follow this opinion, then they are insulted, they are caricatured, they are stigmatized. This is a brutal way to convince people and to try to change their mind in my opinion. You have to admit that their thoughts are not totally illegetimate no matter what you think. I have nothing against transgender for example, I don't mind their presence, I'm totally okay with them. But no, in my mind, they are not what they believe they are; I can be nice, yes, but I have my own thoughts on the matter. And claiming that you have an issue with transgenders because you are not convinced by their change, an argument that I often see on this forum and the former one, is intellectually dishonest at best to me, and dumb at worse. I understand the need to be polite. but yes it is a matter of anger, because it is a brutal way to dictate what people should considerate, while they factually said nothing wrong by staying to a fact, saying " he " about a character that was born as a guy, it wasn't an insult, and yet it's suddenly like you are a nazy, hop you are banned. That's where it's crazy to me. We are just forcing people to follow an ideology that is only based on a opinion, a opinion that come where ? From liberals, progressives and leftists like Bioware. |
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 19, 2016 16:03:12 GMT
I'm not convinced it is so much about being 'progressive or liberal'. I think it is about people not being mean to each other. If someone identifies as 'she' then they clearly feel that is the appropriate pronoun, and if I am aware of that, I don't see why it would be reasonable to argue it. No-one is forced to do that, just as no-one is forced to be polite in public. So I don't understand why this would be a matter for anger or to cause anyone bother. It's just being considerate, surely?
"No your name is Sarah" and were COMPLETELY fixed on calling me Sarah even though my name is Lauren id be like "whats wrong with you???"
WAIT! Are you saying that your name isn't sarah?  That is an outrage, I think that name fit you so that is your new name, deal with it. On the topic of calling people the correct form.  Syv does this mean that i can call a black person n****r or an japanese "Japs" just because I think it better? It is called common courtesy. For example: I have a name that is spelled differently from the usual norm, should I correct them or should I "deal with it"? |
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 19, 2016 16:15:56 GMT
...For example: I have a name that is spelled differently from the usual norm, should I correct them or should I "deal with it"? My mother has used the long form of my name for 30 years after I told her I didn't like it, but she's the only person who does that without comment . |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 16:29:27 GMT
So long as we're on pronouns, I thought this video would be a good additive to the discussion. Backstory: Jordan Peterson is a tenured professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. Not just some guy with a webcam and opinions. He has gotten into a bit of a quagmire by disagreeing with the the political left on this issue. FYI: He's not polite in this video, and he does say a swear word or two. But he does articulate his arguments well, in my opinion. EDIT: Also, the legislation he refers to in the video is Bill C-16 of 2016. I watched the whole video but his arguments were actually pretty weak, in my opinion. He goes off on weird tangents that don't actually support or refute his argument. Just non sequiturs that make him come across as "ranting" versus making a rational argument. That being said, I can comment on my take on his arguments. And, I'll qualify this as saying that I'm a published scholar with a background in psychology (although not my post-graduate work, which is in the sciences). But I've done a pretty fair amount of reading on biopsychology and, separately, have an interest in identity. So I'm somewhat well positioned to discuss his argument from an academic standpoint. I'm only saying that because he was presented as an 'expert' because of his academic qualifications. So I'm just demonstrating that I have my own qualifications and I'm not just some guy on a forum who has an opinion. Right from the start, he lost some credibility with me when he tried to make the argument about the origin of pronouns. He claims that pronoun usage is primarily to categorize people based on gender and that it's a fundamental part of language. However, that's not the true purpose of pronouns. They are language short-cuts to ease communication. And there are many languages that don't have ANY gender pronouns. So the need to categorize people by gender using pronouns is really one that is culturally specific. Sure, you could argue that he's only speaking about English. But that's not how he frames it. He frames it as a fundamental "truth" about language and human nature, which is objectively false (which he should appreciate since he places so much value on objectivity). Speaking of objectivity, he should probably read some of the neurobiological research on transgenderism. There's increasing evidence that there is a biological basis to it. Which really takes the wind out of the "it's all subjective" argument. I actually do agree with him that there is a social negotiation with gender and identity. It's why I never frame my arguments as saying, "Gender is whatever I decide it is for me". Because there is certainly a truth that your view of your identity is only part of what your identity actually is. It's why the term "Self-Identity" exists. However, he goes on to say that he doesn't need to actually respect other's self-identity at all. That's not negotiation, which is why I think he's just rude in general. Negotiation requires a give and take and he's clearly uninterested in "giving". It's his way only. Which is ironic because it's exactly what he's trying to argue is the case for others. Its why his whole argument comes across as self-indulgent and petulant. He wants it his way and is trying to set up an argument for why it has to be his by name-calling people who he thinks are saying it has to be their way. It's remarkably lacking in self-reflection. A lot of this is probably because, to me, he's kind of a rude person. To me, anyone who says that he absolutely doesn't need to show respect unless you earned it from him is pretty rude. To me, respect is something that is assumed. I don't treat people disrespectfully until they earn my respect, which is the argument that he actually makes here. He says (paraphrased): I don't need to respect you if I don't know if you deserve my respect as a person and if you are a liberal, then you probably don't deserve it anyway. That's probably why I disagree with him as much as I do. We come from life in two different directions: He assumes disrespect unless otherwise and I assume respect unless otherwise. |
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Post by helios969 on Dec 19, 2016 16:32:10 GMT
Not only Bioware didn't change my mind, but it puts a will of resistance in my mind. I have to completely agree with that part. Nobody likes to be preached at. And the more you try to force your values, the more close-minded people become. That goes for any group preaching to any other group. I'm sure the gay and lesbian community doesn't want traditional nuclear family values rammed down there throats (even though a fair number of them do in fact choose to raise families of their own). Anyway, nothing puts me into stubborn mode faster than someone telling me I need to value the same things they value. Ironically, I'll often already agree with them, but openly oppose because they've just pissed me off. Good or bad, I just think that's human nature. |
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Post by luzarius on Dec 19, 2016 16:33:10 GMT
Thanks! - There were black / white / male / female / human / krogan / straight in the first Mass Effect.
- Female Turians were mentioned in the first Mass Effect.
- Ashley's hairstyle is different concept from a sexual orientation. The only sexual orientations that were part of the original vision of Mass Effect was straight & biseuxal. The bisexual romance is of course human female on Asari, since Asari practically look human female and sound female.
- The addition of thermal clips was cleverly explained in the codex & preserved immersion 100%.
- Mass Effect 3 decided to shoe horn GAY romance into the game due to cultural changes in the USA. This broke immersion by matching the culture of real life to the game. IMO, they should've add gay male romance in the first Mass Effect, then immersion would've been preserved.
But a transgender? I don't see how my brain could accept this as just a natural, expected part of Mass Effect. Every way I look at it, it's pandering and token. They should've put it in the first Mass Effect, then I would instantly accept it with no questions asked. I EASILY accepted LGB content in Dragon Age no questions asked because it was there in Origins from the very beginning and carefully explained in the codex & lore. I'm an immersion purist, so don't confuse my writings with being homophobic or transphobic because I'm not. I like writers who know what they're writing from the very beginning, not just winging it later on. I understand this holds writers to a very high standard, but we need more works from the likes of Tolkien, Martin & Rowling. |
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 19, 2016 16:41:18 GMT
.. I'm an immersion purist, so don't confuse my writings with being homophobic or transphobic because I'm not. ... ok, your issue is as an 'immersion purist'?  not much to say then, other than 'you do you'... I'm presuming you have an issue with the FTL travel to Andromeda then? (Oh actually let's not open that can of worms here  ) |
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Post by Evamitchelle on Dec 19, 2016 16:41:28 GMT
I'm not convinced it is so much about being 'progressive or liberal'. I think it is about people not being mean to each other. If someone identifies as 'she' then they clearly feel that is the appropriate pronoun, and if I am aware of that, I don't see why it would be reasonable to argue it. No-one is forced to do that, just as no-one is forced to be polite in public. So I don't understand why this would be a matter for anger or to cause anyone bother. It's just being considerate, surely? Yes it is about liberals and progressives. Bioware among them, actively trying to push an opinion . People were banned because they said he about Krem for example. That doesn't shock you ? We are forcing them to say she about Krem, something that is not based on a FACT but opinions, that is totally up to debate. That's where it's totally illegetimate and crazy. When you are franckly punished for being in the truth ? Why should we be forced to say he ? Yes, i imagine that it is not pleasing, but could someone be considered as bad guys, as " assholes, just because he stays true to a fact in his opinions ? It's not like they wanted to insult, they just refuse to follow a belief that they do not see themself. We are not going to convince them with some illegetimate laws that arbitrally force them to use that pronoun in the society for example. It's a good thing to try to improve things, to be encouraged to change behaviors, but be careful with not trying to dictate things in a ridiculous way. That's where it goes too far. It's less about being polite to me at this point, it's more about pushing an ideology that is only based on opinions from a vocal side. And if people don't follow this opinion, then they are insulted, they are caricatured, they are stigmatized. This is a brutal way to convince people and to try to change their mind in my opinion. You have to admit that their thoughts are not totally illegetimate no matter what you think. I have nothing against transgender for example, I don't mind their presence, I'm totally okay with them. But no, in my mind, they are not what they believe they are; I can be nice, yes, but I have my own thoughts on the matter. And claiming that you have an issue with transgenders because you are not convinced by their change, an argument that I often see on this forum and the former one, is intellectually dishonest at best to me, and dumb at worse. I understand the need to be polite. but yes it is a matter of anger, because it is a brutal way to dictate what people should considerate, while they factually said nothing wrong by staying to a fact, saying " he " about a character that was born as a guy, it wasn't an insult, and yet it's suddenly like you are a nazy, hop you are banned. That's where it's crazy to me. We are just forcing people to follow an ideology that is only based on a opinion, a opinion that come where ? From liberals, progressives and leftists like Bioware. I’ve gotta point out that you’re completely turned around on Krem and it’s making your posts pretty confusing. Like, you’ve said in the same paragraph that Bioware has both banned and forced people to use “he” to refer to Krem. So I’ll clarify just in case: Krem’s a trans man, as in, assigned female at birth but identifies as a man and is referred to as he/him. |
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you seem to have the right balance between like... nice and different and I can ask you questions 
) do you think those are pointless too and that people are pretending to enjoy them???
That is an outrage, I think that name fit you so that is your new name, deal with it. 
)