Trans characters in Mass Effect Andromeda

Dec 19, 2016 16:33:10 GMT luzarius said:

Dec 19, 2016 15:56:02 GMT SofaJockey said:

Hi luzarius , we were expecting you  .

Thanks!

Introducing a trans character is no more tokenistic than a black / white / male / female / human / krogan / gay / straight character........ As for a trans character breaking immersion, that is no more a thing than introducing female Turians, Ashley with long hair, and thermal clips, none of which were part of the original vision of Mass Effect.

• There were black / white / male / female / human / krogan / straight in the first Mass Effect.
  
• Female Turians were mentioned in the first Mass Effect.
  
• Ashley's hairstyle is different concept from a sexual orientation. The only sexual orientations that were part of the original vision of Mass Effect was straight & lesbian. The lesbian romance is of course human female on Asari, since Asari practically look human female and sound female.
  
• The addition of thermal clips was cleverly explained in the codex & preserved immersion 100%.
  
• Mass Effect 3 decided to shoe horn GAY romance into the game due to cultural changes in the USA.  This broke immersion by matching the culture of real life to the game.  IMO, they should've add gay male romance in the first Mass Effect, then immersion would've been preserved.
  

But a transgender? I don't see how my brain could accept this as just a natural, expected part of Mass Effect. Every way I look at it, it's pandering and token.  They should've put it in the first Mass Effect, then I would instantly accept it with no questions asked.  I EASILY accepted LGB content in Dragon Age no questions asked because it was there in Origins from the very beginning and carefully explained in the codex & lore.

I'm an immersion purist, so don't confuse my writings with being homophobic or transphobic because I'm not.

I like writers who know what they're writing from the very beginning, not just winging it later on. I understand this holds writers to a very high standard, but we need more works from the likes of Tolkien, Martin & Rowling.

... genuine question:

Is immersion meaning "being identical to the first in a series"??? Because I thought it meant being like being mentally involved in it???

Like... I would describe Skyrims first person perspective as "immersive" because it lets you see what your character is seeing so it gets you more "into" it, just like a book is immersive when it has lots of detail and description and it lets you feel like youre actually there

...

I dont see how your point can be a real one

Also youre a great example of what I was saying before about people focusing on one thing and then ignoring the things that disagree with them, thanks for that "what I say is immersion breaking because it is even though I apparently have the wrong definition but things that keep with my wrong definition of immersion breaking arent immersion breaking because reasons"

You confuse me

Dec 19, 2016 16:42:04 GMT @daveliam said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:05:58 GMT @tzeenchianapostrophe said:

Many things mean a lot to many people, but there has to be a line somewhere.

I support your right to live as you wish, but I don't support your right to tell people how to speak.
The NY "Misgendering law" is a good example to the authoritarian slippery slope of the regressive left concept of "politeness".

Just like you expect people not to denounce gays or moralize about why it's wrong to have homosexual sex, in the same coin you shouldn't tell others what to think or what to say.
The point is, authoritarianism is bad whether it comes from outdated religions, or from pseudo-liberalism.

Personally, I refer to people as either "he" or "she" according to how they present themselves, I do this as a courtesy and because as you say, it means a lot to some people.
However, if it gets any more complicated than that and requires the use of newfangled "pronouns", I'm out. (for the same reasons I won't refer to someone "identifying" as an attack helicopter as "Apache")

I just want to point out that I don't necessarily have a different opinion than you.  I have not ever supported legislature about pronoun usage, because I don't support it.  Just like using a homophobic or racial slur isn't illegal.  It's a shitbag thing to do sure, but it's not illegal.  And, ironically, those who say that they don't have to respect other people's self-identities are often the same who get very upset when people call them something that they don't think they are. 

The only legislature that I've ever spoken about supporting along this line is the right for a transgender person to use gender-based facilities that align with their gender identity.  It's a safety issue.  I don't want to see transwomen forced to use bathrooms with men.  That seems like a really, really bad idea for their safety.  It's why I always eyeroll at the "Trans bathroom children safety" argument.  The whole, a burly moustached pedophile pretend he's transgender to molest little girls thing.  Because there are so few examples of that happening, that it's almost laughable.  Yes, it could happen, but human history has really demonstrated that it's terribly unlikely.  Compare that with the rates of transwomen who are raped, assaulted, or killed by men now.  Transwomen of color have the highest murder rate of any group of people in the US.  So I see it as a safety thing.

Like you, I think it's more a question of respect.  If someone tells me that they are a woman, then I'm going to call them a woman.  No reason not to in my mind.  It is likely something that means alot to them and it costs me nothing. 

"Youre a woman" "Youre a transphobic" "Im not transphobic even though I just totally called you something youre not too!"

Also

Funny thing

Some of the people who complain about other people being "triggered"

Also get "triggered" by the same things  noticed that about this forum

"Stupid [insert people here] getting triggered by stupid things

Now im gonna have a massive illogical insensitive rant about the same thing"

"People get triggered by being called things!

DONT CALL ME THAT THING THATS TOTALLY WRONG DAMN YOU YOU SILLY [insert people here]"

"look at all those "special snowflakes" with their "safe spaces"

But I totally need a special place to post my opinions too!"

#Logic

Everyone is just as bad, true fact... whats even the point

Dec 19, 2016 16:54:10 GMT Catilina said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:50:10 GMT GeneralXIV said:

"Youre a woman" "Youre a transphobic" "Im not transphobic even though I just totally called you something youre not too!"

Also

Funny thing

Some of the people who complain about other people being "triggered"

Also get "triggered" by the same things  noticed that about this forum

"Stupid [insert people here] getting triggered by stupid things

Now im gonna have a massive illogical insensitive rant about the same thing"

"People get triggered by being called things!

DONT CALL ME THAT THING THATS TOTALLY WRONG DAMN YOU YOU SILLY [insert people here]"

#Logic

Everyone is just as bad, true fact... whats even the point 

There are idiots everywhere. Do not have to follow them. Ignore them, OR: Investigate the cause.

I dont, I only follow nice people on the forum  although there are nice people ive missed out ofc

Also, causation isnt really high on my priorities when there are people who are just so negative. All of the time. Im more focused on well... making things more positive

And posting Frozen memes

Mostly the Frozen memes

Dec 19, 2016 17:02:09 GMT luzarius said:

<snip>
Yup, that's one way of getting immersed. There are many different ways of getting immersed.  The way I was explaining is maintaining immersion by staying true to the original vision of your game.  If gay male romance wasn't a part of your original vision, then it must not be that important. Why would you add it later instead of in the first place?  Radical changes like this snap me out of the game.  In Mass Effect 1 Kaidan Alenko shows an interest in female shepard, but in Mass Effect 3 he's gay now? Sorry, they broke immersion. 

I'm not unreasonable though, I can forgive radical changes within reason, but in the case of Cortez he talks about gay marriage which I do not agree with. That snapped me out of the game and reminded me of the crap I see on TV.  Gay marriage makes no sense to me unless the couple adopts. Marriage is about family and Cortez mentioned nothing about family.  It was a liberal agenda pushed into the game which snapped me out of immersion and reminded me of real life not Mass Effect.

<snip>

Immersion is made up of many different things.

For example in the Hobbit, the romance between Tauriel & Kili was immersion breaking. It wasn't a part of the book and it felt out of place.  When that scene came up I was no longer "MENTALLY INVOVLED IN IT" as you describe. I immediately looked to my friend in the movie theater and he was just as confused as I was. 

Tauriel wasn't a part of the book, but I understand why they added her, it's so female fans have more female characters to relate to. A female elf is a perfectly acceptable addition, especially given Arwen's combat skills.

• Kaidan wasn't gay in ME3. You are objectively wrong.
  
• Steve did talk about family.  He spoke about his husband.  His husband was his family.  Family is more than just "having kids".  Your siblings are your family, yet you don't have children with them.  Almost every modern culture recognizes spouses as family.  Again, you are objectively wrong here.  Here's a question for you:  Did you also have immersion issues with Tali & Garrus being romance options?  And, if so, why?  Also, did you find it immersion breaking to have a romance with Miranda and why?
  
• You have contradicted yourself with the Tauriel statements.  You claim that including Tauriel in the movie makes sense because she's a female elf and, why she wasn't in the book, it's not unreasonable for female elves to be in the setting.  Yet you then claim that having a gay character in ME is immersion breaking.  Despite it being set in a fictional future of the current present.  Given that there are gay people in the current present, it should follow your logic that it is not immersion breaking to include gay people in the ME setting.

As usual, it appears that you go through impressive (and totally illogical) mental gymnastics to try to justify your thoughts versus just owning them for what they are.

Dec 19, 2016 17:16:25 GMT lilyenachaos said:

Dec 19, 2016 15:39:02 GMT luzarius said:

- If I hear anyone talk about "pronouns" in the game, I'm not buying it.

- If I hear about a transgender bathroom aboard the ship, I'm not buying  it.

- If they force a liberal college course into the game taught by a transgender NPC, I'm not buying it.

- Adding a transgender character will break immersion since it was never part of the original vision of Mass Effect. 

But, in all fairness I have to ask:

How can the game introduce a transgender into Mass Effect Andromeda without it coming off as tokenistic pandering?

I just rolled my eyes so hard I think I hurt myself. 

There are going to be a LOT of things in MEA that were not in the original trilogy, simply because it's a whole new game.  There are going to be issues but I highly doubt bathrooms are going to be one of them.  (Unless it's lack of bathrooms...having to go in the woods as a female isn't that fun.)

If I listened to some peoples views/expectations on Mass Effect and Dragon Age before I actually bought them I would have been like "huh those games seem weird" unless Mass Effect (which ive played very little of and dont know much about period) is a very very very very awful thing where it preaches at you and 99% of the characters are transgendered or gay I genuinely have no idea what people go on about  Played Dragon Age quite a bit, nearly finished with my first playthrough of DAI... never noticed anything even close to what people complain about apart from the game mechanics like combat and stuff  I think some people are just weird.

Dec 19, 2016 17:14:58 GMT @daveliam said:

Oh boy.  Here we go.

Fact time: 

• Kaidan wasn't gay in ME3. You are objectively wrong.
  
• Steve did talk about family.  He spoke about his husband.  His husband was his family.  Family is more than just "having kids".  Your siblings are your family, yet you don't have children with them.  Almost every modern culture recognizes spouses as family.  Again, you are objectively wrong here.  Here's a question for you:  Did you also have immersion issues with Tali & Garrus being romance options?  And, if so, why?
  
• You have contradicted yourself with the Tauriel statements.  You claim that including Tauriel in the movie makes sense because she's a female elf and, why she wasn't in the book, it's not unreasonable for female elves to be in the setting.  Yet you then claim that having a gay character in ME is immersion breaking.  Despite it being set in a fictional future of the current present.  Given that there are gay people in the current present, it should follow your logic that it is not immersion breaking to include gay people in the ME setting.

As usual, it appears that you go through impressive (and totally illogical) mental gymnastics to try to justify your thoughts versus just owning them for what they are.

• Kaidan can be romanced by male or female Shepard, which means he's gay & straight, hence bi-sexual. Bi-sexual means you're both.
  
• Family is about having kids. I've had this debate many times and I always win it. I've yet to meet someone who can argue against my logic.  We can do it in a different thread or on twitter: www.twitter.com/luzariuslive
  
• I did not contradict myself with Tauriel. She's a female elf skilled in combat. Arwen is also a female elf skilled in combat. It's reasonable to add Tauriel given the nature of Arwen, it's believable to accept Tauriel.  Mass Effect 1 never had a gay male character in it so it doesn't make sense to add it later.  It was never part of the original vision.  Arwen was a part of Tolkien's vision. She's a female elf skilled in combat. Tauriel is a female elf skilled in combat. It fits.
  

Dec 19, 2016 17:28:42 GMT luzarius said:

• Kaidan can be romanced by male or female Shepard, which means he's gay & straight, hence bi-sexual. Bi-sexual means you're both.
  
• Family is about having kids. I've had this debate many times and I always win it. I've yet to meet someone who can argue against my logic.  We can do it in a different thread or on twitter: www.twitter.com/luzariuslive
  
• I did not contradict myself with Tauriel. She's a female elf skilled in combat. Arwen is also a female elf skilled in combat. It's reasonable to add Tauriel given the nature of Arwen, it's believable to accept Tauriel.  Mass Effect 1 never had a gay male character in it so it doesn't make sense to add it later.  It was never part of the original vision.  Arwen was a part of Tolkien's vision. She's a female elf skilled in combat. Tauriel is a female elf skilled in combat. It fits.
  

If you want to play the logic game, let's do it, but you have to realize you're dealing with someone who is highly skilled at it.  I'm also more interested in finding what's right than being right, so if you win the logic
game, I will switch over and join your side.

• Bisexuality is a different sexuality than being gay or being straight.  Although, I'll gladly concede the point if you can provide a single reference that specifically defines bisexuality as being both gay and straight.
  
• Answer the questions that I posed above and then I'll respond
  
• Okay, so if Tauriel isn't immersion breaking because there is a tradition in the lore to support a female elven warrior, then gay people in the ME setting isn't immersion breaking because in the series lore, it is based on the future of our contemporary society, in which there are gay people.
  

Dec 19, 2016 17:26:33 GMT @daveliam said:

Dec 19, 2016 17:21:10 GMT GeneralXIV said:

If I listened to some peoples views/expectations on Mass Effect and Dragon Age before I actually bought them I would have been like "huh those games seem weird" unless Mass Effect (which ive played very little of and dont know much about period) is a very very very very awful thing where it preaches at you and 99% of the characters are transgendered or gay I genuinely have no idea what people go on about  Played Dragon Age quite a bit, nearly finished with my first playthrough of DAI... never noticed anything even close to what people complain about apart from the game mechanics like combat and stuff  I think some people are just weird.

I actually did an estimate of the amount of LGBT content in any one playthrough of DAI and it was somewhere at about 1 hour (including a s/s romance, Dorian's quest, that one conversation with Krem, if Leliana & Hawke talk about a s/s Warden/LI, the few random background characters that mention s/s relationships. etc.).

So that means that, in a game with over 100+ hours of content, about 1% of it includes LGBT content.  Yet people still go on and on about how prevalent the content is.  Which really suggests that the issue isn't grounded in fact, but subjectivity.  Yet they feel that their subjective take is one that should be attended to by everyone else.  Now why does that sound so familiar.....?

Yayyyyyy a big hug for you for being awesome *hugs*

I also used math in a conversation about lgbt and DAI and like im not a math person! Im terrible at math, I suck at it, im an illogical person who constantly contradicts themselves because im generally undecided about lots of things and then there are people who are older and smarter than me and Im using math AGAINST them and its just like "is it opposite day today???  " usually IM the one saying illogical things and being contradicted by logic not logical people being contradicted by logic used by an illogical person

Yep subjectivity... people focusing on things and ignoring contradictory evidence... its a massive problem! it seems to be EVERYWHERE when it comes to DAI and discussions like this and its like whyyyyy

I guess hate can turn even the most logical person into a blind one

Also maybe relevant but I just like the quote so eh

"The problem with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and putting things in it." - Terry Pratchett

Dec 19, 2016 17:44:49 GMT luzarius said:

Dec 19, 2016 17:15:43 GMT GeneralXIV said:

The Mass Effect universe is kinda set in OUR universe... just hundreds of years in the future. Or its at least BASED on our universe... given that the earth and stuff exists, so do humans... stuff like that.  Direct CHANGES I can understand, like what you said about Kaiden, but when youre ADDING things, not changing them, especially when theyre adding things which exist in reality which is what theyve based their universe on... isnt it more immersive???

AlsoGay marriage exists in reality too Therefore not immersion breaking, you just dont like gay marriage... thats it I personally rarely use Skyrims first person system because I prefer third but I dont think its immersion breaking just because I dont like it

If you want to debate me on the gay marriage thing find me on twitter under LuzariusLive, we'll have a good limit pushing discussion. I've had the debate tons of times so be ready for a challenge.

... I dont have Twitter

Bsn was the first social-thing site I have, I have blogger though... a few others but not facebook or twitter, I have Steam and Origin also

But erm is a nice discussion possible not a debate??? I dont really gain much from debating It isnt a favorite thing... I like asking questions and answering questions but when its 2 opposing views like locking horns to try and beat each other is just like... whats the point???

When I talk about things im not trying to win or trying to convince people... I just like hearing opinions and sharing mine and talking about the things that interest me

Dec 19, 2016 17:52:07 GMT luzarius said:

Dec 19, 2016 17:50:20 GMT GeneralXIV said:

... I dont have Twitter

Bsn was the first social-thing site I have, I have blogger though... a few others but not facebook or twitter, I have Steam and Origin also

But erm is a nice discussion possible not a debate??? I dont really gain much from debating It isnt a favorite thing... I like asking questions and answering questions but when its 2 opposing views like locking horns to try and beat each other is just like... whats the point???

When I talk about things im not trying to win or trying to convince people... I just like hearing opinions and sharing mine and talking about the things that interest me

I'm here to either change peoples point of view or have my own point of view change. I've changed my own point of view many times from these types of discussions.

Haha well... I dont think either of us would get anywhere I dont debate ever (although I do discuss and talk about things) and if youve had the debate before and still think the same way its not likely that ill change anything being an inexperienced debater who is just as likely to contradict themselves as I am someone else

And although ive been described as "malleable" before, you probably wont get me to think that I shouldnt be able to marry either

So a debate which happens when the people involved wont be able to change their opinions is pointless and wont end well, and it isnt something I have an interest in because I like things which DO end well more than the things which dont, personally