Morrigan
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Post by Morrigan on Jan 23, 2017 1:49:11 GMT
I hate that there is now way to get him pardoned, even if he's the one who enters the Fade and saves Connor. Need to let him free, before the warden go into the castle, this is the one way to save him, in the Circle probably he will be tranquil. Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 1:52:49 GMT
Need to let him free, before the warden go into the castle, this is the one way to save him, in the Circle probably he will be tranquil. Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself. Me too, because he feel guilty, but I think, to be tranquil is too cruel punishment. Loghain promised him freedom. So: I rather let him runaway.
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Post by phoray on Jan 23, 2017 2:11:58 GMT
Need to let him free, before the warden go into the castle, this is the one way to save him, in the Circle probably he will be tranquil. Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself. Is his protecting villagers later, giving mages a good name, not redemption?
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Morrigan
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by Morrigan on Jan 23, 2017 2:15:11 GMT
Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself. Is his protecting villagers later, giving mages a good name, not redemption? Do you need mods to get that encounter? I've always played vanilla.
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Post by phoray on Jan 23, 2017 2:17:47 GMT
Is his protecting villagers later, giving mages a good name, not redemption? Do you need mods to get that encounter? I've always played vanilla. It's bugged, true. So mods have to be on to get it to trigger which fixes it. But it's canon, it was there. I watched it online and that's enough for me to say it happened every time. Also, I think it only happens for a Circle mage origin?
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First of the Dalish
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Post by Pokemario on Jan 24, 2017 21:06:21 GMT
Is there a Recruit Jowan mod in Origins besides Karmas Origins Companions? (I don't really like the way he's written there...)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 21:13:42 GMT
Is there a Recruit Jowan mod in Origins besides Karmas Origins Companions? (I don't really like the way he's written there...) Yes, I think.
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Post by phoray on Jan 24, 2017 21:28:13 GMT
Is there a Recruit Jowan mod in Origins besides Karmas Origins Companions? (I don't really like the way he's written there...) Yes, I think.wow, the amount of work that went into it.... boggles the mind!
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Post by Amirit on Jan 24, 2017 23:04:35 GMT
Do you need mods to get that encounter? I've always played vanilla. It's bugged, true. So mods have to be on to get it to trigger which fixes it. But it's canon, it was there. I watched it online and that's enough for me to say it happened every time. Also, I think it only happens for a Circle mage origin? How come it can be a canon if the only way to free Jowan is to get to the castle AFTER villagers are protected by Worden? The only thing Jpwan does with his freedom (aside of running away - again!) is suggesting to kill Isolde. No much of redemption, really.
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Post by phoray on Jan 25, 2017 1:04:14 GMT
It's bugged, true. So mods have to be on to get it to trigger which fixes it. But it's canon, it was there. I watched it online and that's enough for me to say it happened every time. Also, I think it only happens for a Circle mage origin? How come it can be a canon if the only way to free Jowan is to get to the castle AFTER villagers are protected by Worden? The only thing Jpwan does with his freedom (aside of running away - again!) is suggesting to kill Isolde. No much of redemption, really. This is so far off from the scene I was talking about that I'm not sure you've seen it. It was built into the game that if a Circle Mage told Jowan to get lost, aggressively, that Jowan will actually leave. Then, and it's bugged but not non existent, one can pick up a job from the Chanter Board about an apostate they're concerned about. Then a random scene triggers during travel. You kill some Tainted Bears side by side with Jowan and some villagers, but they're underpowered. Here ya go: How is that not a happy ending one could be proud of?
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Post by Amirit on Jan 25, 2017 10:40:22 GMT
How come it can be a canon if the only way to free Jowan is to get to the castle AFTER villagers are protected by Worden? The only thing Jpwan does with his freedom (aside of running away - again!) is suggesting to kill Isolde. No much of redemption, really. This is so far off from the scene I was talking about that I'm not sure you've seen it. It was built into the game that if a Circle Mage told Jowan to get lost, aggressively, that Jowan will actually leave. Then, and it's bugged but not non existent, one can pick up a job from the Chanter Board about an apostate they're concerned about. Then a random scene triggers during travel. You kill some Tainted Bears side by side with Jowan and some villagers, but they're underpowered. Here ya go: How is that not a happy ending one could be proud of? A truly good scene! And for sure one that proves Jowan came to his senses. Still, I am not sure "bugged" and "canon" are the right word. To me it looks like an extra scene that after some consideration was not included in the game (there are plenty of them and even more audio files afaik). Something like "director's cut" or even "director's ideas".
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Post by Sifr on Jan 25, 2017 11:13:50 GMT
A truly good scene! And for sure one that proves Jowan came to his senses. Still, I am not sure "bugged" and "canon" are the right word. To me it looks like an extra scene that after some consideration was not included in the game (there are plenty of them and even more audio files afaik). Something like "director's cut" or even "director's ideas". Since the quest does appear on the Chantry Board and the completed quest does exist in the game, I'd qualify it as a bug that Bioware never got around to officially patching. The Ancient Elven Boots in Lothering are another example, as it was clearly meant to be in the game, as the rest of the armour set does drop normally. My suspicion for why it wasn't patched was because Jowan has a ton of alternate outcomes, he's either left in his cell, freed to help, dies during the ritual, or told to run. Since most people keep him around to try and fix his mistakes, they may not have noticed (or bothered) to fix the quest not triggering properly. Besides, Dorian's quest in Inquisition is extremely finicky and a tad buggy, but we consider it to be canon. I consider Jowan's redemption if he's told to run to be semi-canon, since it doesn't really screw up any lore and it's short and simple quest that ties up his story-arc, even if it does require a bug-fix mod or the console to trigger.
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Post by Amirit on Jan 25, 2017 12:37:23 GMT
From comments to your video on youtube I got it you have to use console command to get that quest on the Chantry Board. But I would not know since I am one of those who thinks Jowan has to answer for his crime (poisoning Earl Eamon and causing - as a result - attack on the village and many deaths) here and now. I totally disagree with in-game wording of all of this (about betraying the Worden and so on), but a crime is a crime. I normally give him to the Circle and headcanon hard work for community as a punishment for what he's done (because executing a gifted and very educated man is a total waste, especially considering how many mages are dead by now).
Still, that ending would be nice to have officially too.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 12:47:20 GMT
From comments to your video on youtube I got it you have to use console command to get that quest on the Chantry Board. But I would not know since I am one of those who thinks Jowan has to answer for his crime (poisoning Earl Eamon and causing - as a result - attack on the village and many deaths) here and now. I totally disagree with in-game wording of all of this (about betraying the Worden and so on), but a crime is a crime. I normally give him to the Circle and headcanon hard work for community as a punishment for what he's done (because executing a gifted and very educated man is a total waste, especially considering how many mages are dead by now). Still, that ending would be nice to have officially too. Don't forget: his governor commanded him, referring to Ferelden. Loghain was the Hero of Ferelden, King Maric's friend. Jowan was a Circle mage (apprentice), he don't know about the fresh political conditions... in fact no one knew, that Loghain became villain. And he promise him freedom. This is a great gift to a mage. Tranquility for this too great punishment.
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Post by Amirit on Jan 25, 2017 14:42:12 GMT
From comments to your video on youtube I got it you have to use console command to get that quest on the Chantry Board. But I would not know since I am one of those who thinks Jowan has to answer for his crime (poisoning Earl Eamon and causing - as a result - attack on the village and many deaths) here and now. I totally disagree with in-game wording of all of this (about betraying the Worden and so on), but a crime is a crime. I normally give him to the Circle and headcanon hard work for community as a punishment for what he's done (because executing a gifted and very educated man is a total waste, especially considering how many mages are dead by now). Still, that ending would be nice to have officially too. Don't forget: his governor commanded him, referring to Ferelden. Loghain was the Hero of Ferelden, King Maric's friend. Jowan was a Circle mage (apprentice), he don't know about the fresh political conditions... in fact no one knew, that Loghain became villain. And he promise him freedom. This is a great gift to a mage. Tranquility for this too great punishment.  Tell me honestly, if ANY authority in your country comes to you and command to assassinate someone - would you do that? Not to mention, it was far from a written order, he was truly just told to go and kill some guy he never even met before. And he agreed! Yes, I know, he was on the run, Loghain killed some templars to get him and promised to let him go. But (!) the fact remains - Jowan agreed to commit a cold blooded murder for the personal gain. A crime is a crime, end of story. Tranquility is a crime itself - no questions here, herding mages like cattle is crime too - all committing by Chantry for centuries. And up until that meeting in the dungeon I wished my character could say something else but blaming Jowan for some "betrayal". Though, even that part is better than some plot-howls (or story-telling howls?) we have throughout the game. After all, even though templars use blood magic, wordens use blood magic, everyone and their dogs use blood magic, except for the only people qualified to use said magic - mages - still, officially blood magic is forbidden and since you were born, you have been taught, that studying blood magic is a crime and a sin. Jowan did involved you into the worst possible crime mage can commit and then run away leaving you and his supposed love to answer for his doing. Great character and great story. I just wish for more option to react with.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 15:05:03 GMT
Don't forget: his governor commanded him, referring to Ferelden. Loghain was the Hero of Ferelden, King Maric's friend. Jowan was a Circle mage (apprentice), he don't know about the fresh political conditions... in fact no one knew, that Loghain became villain. And he promise him freedom. This is a great gift to a mage. Tranquility for this too great punishment.  Tell me honestly, if ANY authority in your country comes to you and command to assassinate someone - would you do that? Not to mention, it was far from a written order, he was truly just told to go and kill some guy he never even met before. And he agreed! Yes, I know, he was on the run, Loghain killed some templars to get him and promised to let him go. But (!) the fact remains - Jowan agreed to commit a cold blooded murder for the personal gain. A crime is a crime, end of story. Tranquility is a crime itself - no questions here, herding mages like cattle is crime too - all committing by Chantry for centuries. And up until that meeting in the dungeon I wished my character could say something else but blaming Jowan for some "betrayal". Though, even that part is better than some plot-howls (or story-telling howls?) we have throughout the game. After all, even though templars use blood magic, wordens use blood magic, everyone and their dogs use blood magic, except for the only people qualified to use said magic - mages - still, officially blood magic is forbidden and since you were born, you have been taught, that studying blood magic is a crime and a sin. Jowan did involved you into the worst possible crime mage can commit and then run away leaving you and his supposed love to answer for his doing. Great character and great story. I just wish for more option to react with. Not to assassinate, to poison... not same, but yes, similar. I not, but Jowan isn't me. And Loghain was a hero, a trustworthy person. Probably his stories could spread in the Circle too. Nevertheless, you're right, Jowan committed a sin. He didn't deny this, he felt guilty. And this is exactly why he deserve the mercy. Instead a possibly tranquility in any case... Surana and Amell know, that his fate in the Circle probably the tranquility, so, if s/he likes Jowan, s/he don't risk his life. yes, this bad, that he don't have a chance to redeem himself in this case. With another origin probably not that simple the decision. Jowan? Betrayed Amell/Surana? How? He just wanted to be free, this isn't sin. Blood magic is a tool. More dangerous than the others, but still. Studying forbidden magic disciplines in the Circle is not betrayal. I think the captives betray only themselves, if not try any tools to escape. Even the First Enchanter don't belong with obedience and/or loyality to the Templars (prison guards), because the system is unacceptable.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2017 7:54:26 GMT
Given how Bioware likes to occasionally rework old characters into new ones, I wonder if Jowan's potential plot lines were given to Anders (renegade apostate) and Merrill (well intentioned blood mage).
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Post by heidirs on Mar 1, 2017 0:02:49 GMT
Need to let him free, before the warden go into the castle, this is the one way to save him, in the Circle probably he will be tranquil. Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself. I like to headcanon that my Warden conscripts him before he is executed, and then he sneaks off from camp in the middle of the night once we realizes neither of the two Wardens have any idea how to do the joining.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:28:43 GMT
Need to let him free, before the warden go into the castle, this is the one way to save him, in the Circle probably he will be tranquil. Yes, but I prefer to let him redeem himself.
I'm so ruthless, I left him at the mercy of the Arl in my canon. He's probably a Tranquil somewhere, in both my Amell and Cousland worldstate...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 16:28:22 GMT
I reported his ass to Irving, which didn't make any difference sadly
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 18:41:57 GMT
I reported his ass to Irving, which didn't make any difference sadly He trusted in you and you betrayed him? It is evil to serve power against the mates. I saw Irving as the servant of the Templars. Not a bad man, but still an enemy in this situation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 18:49:21 GMT
I reported his ass to Irving, which didn't make any difference sadly He trusted in you and you betrayed him? It is a great evil to serve power against the comrades. I saw Irving as the servant of the Templars. Not a bad man, but still an enemy in this situation. Well he didn't really do anything for me and lied about him being a blood mage (I already knew because mage wasn't my first PT) and Irving is a good man who has been kind to me, so why not?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 18:50:51 GMT
He trusted in you and you betrayed him? It is a great evil to serve power against the comrades. I saw Irving as the servant of the Templars. Not a bad man, but still an enemy in this situation. Well he didn't really do anything for me and lied about him being a blood mage (I already knew because mage wasn't my first PT) and Irving is a good man who has been kind to me, so why not? Because he working with the Templars, and serves a bad law. The blood magic just a tool against the Templars.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 18:54:31 GMT
Well he didn't really do anything for me and lied about him being a blood mage (I already knew because mage wasn't my first PT) and Irving is a good man who has been kind to me, so why not? Because he working with the Templars, and serves a bad law. The blood magic just a tool against the Templars. Regardless of your thoughts on that matter, he still didn't fully trust me so I didn't trust him either
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 18:59:45 GMT
Because he working with the Templars, and serves a bad law. The blood magic just a tool against the Templars. Regardless of your thoughts on that matter, he still didn't fully trust me so I didn't trust him either Total trust is stupid, at least in similar situations. You see? You betrayed him.
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