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Post by Iakus on Dec 21, 2016 16:48:10 GMT
You don't have to trust the krogan though. They are still demilitarized. No warships, no large-scale industries. Heck, they have to hitch a ride from the quarians to reach Palaven to fight. So I asay, cure the genophage, give them a couple of planets that aren't so dinged up. Keep them demilitarized for a while and...see what happens when left to develop on their own. If they try to go to war again, not only will they be using shotguns against cruisers, but they'll be facing four Council races rather than two (the turians and humans will be in it from the start) I answered this a few posts before, but I'll do it again. The technology argument is only relevant in a very short time frame. After the curing of the Genophage Krogan population will start rising rapidly, after a generation or two the Krogan will have to start thinking about colonizing other planets because there's only so many Krogan that you can sustain on a radioactive dust-ball. Some level of technology will have to be developed (don't forget that they can also buy knowledge and expertise) rather quickly for purposes of colonization, and enough industry to support these new settlements. At some point, a few generations down the line, they will have enough infrastructure and heavy industry to build their own space ships. It will start with shuttles and unarmed transports, and will advance from there. The Krogan don't need to compete with the Council technologically, their technology while inferior tends to be of the heavy and extremely durable kind, make enough of this and put your hordes inside and you can easily threaten the galaxy. After curing the genophage, the population will rise rapidly: True. And in fact giving them a couple of worlds to colonize would be a good idea since, as noted, Tuchanka is currently a radioactive dust ball. Some level of technology will have to be developed for colonization purposes: Not initially. The Council can give them rides to their initial colony worlds. To expand further, yes, the krogan will have to figure that out on their own. A few generations down the line, they will have enough infrastructure and heavy industry to build their own space ships: Possible. but remember, krogans tend to look down upon science that doesn't go KABOOM! Remember Fortack, the krogan scientist who, if Wrex is in charge, will grumble at time being wasted studying medicine and agriculture rather than weapons. I figure if they are capable of voluntarily going through the steps to bring themselves back into space rather than constructing bigger and better ways of blowing themselves up, that might be a sign of maturing on their part.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 21, 2016 17:13:03 GMT
... I figure if they are capable of voluntarily going through the steps to bring themselves back into space rather than constructing bigger and better ways of blowing themselves up, that might be a sign of maturing on their part. That's the main problem with your argument, they don't have to be unreasonable to start a war, many "reasonable" nations on earth started wars for less. Population explosion is a real problem, and you can only stop breeding to stop it, something that I don't really see the Krogan doing anytime soon, especially after the Genophage. (think about it, for humans, one "oops" moment means one unplanned pregnancy, and on average one baby, for Krogan, one "oops" means a thousand babies... try to wrap your head around this insane number, I don't even know how you would change their diapers or feed them in one day...) From their perspective the only answer is going to be expansion. Hey, I'm not saying krogan breeding numbers aren't pants-on-head stupid for any species that's not at the bottom of the food chain. But for the purpose of the setting where we have to accept certain things as given (like curing "death by planetary impact") I think we have to accept that somehow, the krogan could, given proper time to develop, find a way to stabilize their population. Otherwise we might as well exterminate them all now, because even without salarian uplifting, they would have either found their own way to the stars, or blown themselves up for good. I propose we give them that chance, and see what happens.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 21, 2016 20:10:30 GMT
As for Krogan migration, how will you prevent it exactly? As of now Krogan are free to move as they please. Will you force every Krogan in the galaxy to move to Touchanka? Also, if you don't let them migrate out of Touchanka, you might as well not cure the Genophage, because all you are doing is condemning them to a fate similar to the Drell. What's the point of your mercy if all it leads to is more suffering and death? Also, Wrex mentions "a few planets" as one of the things he plans to demand as payment for their help in the Reaper war, and as a place where they can breed again, IIRC. Again, all the steps you mentioned don't have to happen immediately, and not even during Wrex's lifetime. At first it will all be nice and cute, tourists from all over council space will come to take pictures holding chubby Krogan ninja turtle cubs, the Krogan may even start to concentrate seriously on rebuilding their civilization and culture, but all the while their population will grow rapidly. They will slowly fill the few worlds the council grudgingly gave up, while building infrastructure, and while nor rearming for war exactly you can't expect them not to build *some* weapons for self defense, transports, etc. They might not be able to build dreadnoughts, but they can still build other things. (the main threat after all is them managing to get a Krogan horde on the ground not fighting in space) Don't forget, the Krogan are still extremely useful for the council and independent corporations as mercenaries, so they are not going to completely disarm their favorite tools anytime soon. After all this at some point the Krogan will ask for more space, because after all their population is going to grow a thousand times (at least) over every generation... (did we already mention that Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale?...) And at some point the Council is going to have to say no. It might lead to the Krogan rebelling again, or the Council might feel threatened enough to attack themselves, the point is population explosion is just as dangerous if not more as any number of actual bombs. As for the bigger fish of the Galaxy, initially the Krogan might very well be used as a blunt weapon against other threats by the council, history does like to repeat itself after all, still, that doesn't lessen the danger of a Krogan population explosion at all. My main point is that a complete cure for the Genophage is simply disastrous in the long run, no matter how you look at it, because the Krogan birthrates were designed as a problem or rather a weapon by the writer, and this is one weapon you can't shut down during times of peace. The krogan are free to move as they please but what's obligating the other races to provide the transportation? And if they won't provide the transportation, you have yet to account for how this migration happens. That's been one angle I've been arguing, sometimes for, sometimes against the cure, that's it's not the bleeding heart mercy some think it is. It's the ultimate Darwinist "sink or swim" option- either the krogan get their shit together or they die. No more meddling, no more taking responsibility for or playing God with another species. Just pure dangerous freedom, with all that entails. "A few planets" is precisely the kind of the request the Council should be wary of and the kind only an idiot would just go along with, without heavy checks or assurances in place. As to the rest, if krogan had it in them to build stuff or amusingly, turn to tourism for their sustenance, they would've done it already. But more importantly, we again have to specify where these resources for "building stuff" are all coming from? In a post-Reaper war galaxy where resources to rebuild will already be at a premium for everyone else due to the devastation, who's going to just give the krogan handouts? And if charity's out, what will they barter with? How will they take what isn't given? I'm not saying the krogan are irreversibly screwed. I'm saying they're entirely at the mercy of the other races who a) will prioritize their own interests first and will make damn sure they don't give the krogan a grain more than is absolutely necessary to prevent extinction. Hell I can see the salarians and maybe turians pulling an Empire-Noghri situation where they arrange matters so as to keep the krogan perpetually down/indebted to them. There's already in-universe precedent for that with the hanar and drell and that's not even particularly malicious from what we know. And actually those parallels tell you everything you need to know about your other points too, with krogan usefulness in combat and whatnot. The hanar teach the drell their assassination doctrines. But I highly doubt they enable the drell to overthrow them. Curing the genophage is potentially (and likely) disasterous for the krogan only. The supporting details that made them a threat the last time simply aren't in place this time. And their birth rate isn't the true danger. The true danger is the imbalance made worse by their uplifting. Krogan evolution supported their freakish birthrate because they needed that on their planet where everything evolved to kill them. Then they advanced their civilization, tamed their planet and nuked themselves. And that should've really been that, as that was the original imbalance. I'm no anthropologist/evolutionary biologist but the parallels to humans are fairly obvious. Birthrates in highly developed "first world" countries are markedly less than those in struggling "third world" countries or in previous pre-industrial times. That should've happened with the krogan as well (obviously going from thousands of births to 1 or 2 is way extreme but still, some sort of dip should've been evident). It didn't so they should've died out. Then the salarians uplifted them and unbalanced it even more.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 21, 2016 21:00:44 GMT
Kind of interesting....well the whole debate going on in the thread. But, as has been stated in lore, the Krogan population was kept in check because Tuchanka was such a sess pool and so very violent and hostile that it kept the numbers in check. Now we do not know what Andromeda is going to be like, but we can presume its going to be a pretty hostile environment. Coupled with the small number of Krogan in the first place likely to be in the expedition and I do not see curing the genophage as a big enough issue, at least in the short term.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 21, 2016 21:37:30 GMT
Kind of interesting....well the whole debate going on in the thread. But, as has been stated in lore, the Krogan population was kept in check because Tuchanka was such a sess pool and so very violent and hostile that it kept the numbers in check. Now we do not know what Andromeda is going to be like, but we can presume its going to be a pretty hostile environment. Coupled with the small number of Krogan in the first place likely to be in the expedition and I do not see curing the genophage as a big enough issue, at least in the short term. Huh? 10 females are enough to overpopulate any other AI species in two years. Ten years to overpopulate entire initiative. Krogan birth rates Are. Ridiculous.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 21, 2016 21:40:38 GMT
Kind of interesting....well the whole debate going on in the thread. But, as has been stated in lore, the Krogan population was kept in check because Tuchanka was such a sess pool and so very violent and hostile that it kept the numbers in check. Now we do not know what Andromeda is going to be like, but we can presume its going to be a pretty hostile environment. Coupled with the small number of Krogan in the first place likely to be in the expedition and I do not see curing the genophage as a big enough issue, at least in the short term. Huh? 10 females are enough to overpopulate any other AI species in two years. Ten years to overpopulate entire initiative. Krogan birth rates Are. Ridiculous. Agreed. Almost enough of one where I am tempted to accuse BioWare of bad writing. But on the flip side I doubt the first game is going to take place over 2 years, canonically speaking. So, for ME A, curing the genophage is not going to be a problem. For future games however, it might become one.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 21, 2016 22:14:57 GMT
The Krogan are not as helpless as you make them out to be. There is some sort of Krogan economy, Krogan can't live on welfare from the Turians. There are probably some rich individual Krogan out there, and rich(er) clans, and Krogan mercenary companies with their own transportation. The point is the Krogan can either use what transportation they have, or buy / rent / take a space taxi ride. Even if it comes to building their own transportation they are not helpless, necessity is the mother of invention, they can buy knowledge and expertise, and they can learn on their own. As for resources, they can mine them themselves or salvage all the wrecks on their planet, they certainly don't seem to mind hard work. The main problem is that even if the Krogan get their shit together enough to develop technology, and even if they actually take steps to regain some semblance of culture, the danger is still there. You can't make parallels between birth rates in modern countries and the Krogan, because Krogan birthrate is too absurd to begin with. What would even be the meaning of a dip in birth numbers, a thousand every five years instead of every year?... The culture is also too dissimilar to make direct comparisons, and it's not just that they are aliens, it's also that the trauma of the Genophage might lead them to look at purposefully lowering birth rate as something akin to blasphemy. So why is the danger still there? Because even a modernized version of the Krogan will still require expansion relatively quickly at the speed they reproduce, and culture or no culture, they won't just become pacifists. The solution in my opinion is obvious, we should have been able to implement something between an updated Genophage and a partial cure. The old version will be cured, and the new version will only target the number of fertile eggs females can produce. No cubs dead at birth, no infertile females, instead simply a highly reduced birthrate to whatever makes the most sense for example 1-10 cubs per birth. It's enough to sustain population and grow despite the harsh conditions, it removes the trauma of giving birth to dead offspring, but most importantly - does not devalue individual Krogan lives, which was the original problem that lead to the concept of the "horde". While individual krogan or clans may have resources in terms of money or may control some ships/weapons, it's a negligible amount when considering the krogan as a whole, especially given their individualist streak and lack of faith in their species. As for mining, isn't Tuchanka completely depleted? Somehow I don't see them MacGyvering a fleet from old truck axles, ryncol bottles and varren tails. Quarians might do it but there's literally one example of a tech oriented krogan and that's Fortack in ME2. In any case, my main point is not that the krogan are permanently stuck on Tuchanka, but that there is zero chance they'll be able to expand in such a way as to be a threat again. Resources/conditions simply aren't there, even if they take it slow and how slow can they really take it, given you admit their population should explode? Nor would they be allowed to do so, even if somehow the plot dicated they'd start pulling it off. I can agree with your amended resolution though. There's something attractive about my sink or swim reasoning but if you're going for maximizing good across the board, it makes sense. It also removes the muddying of the original genophage which was in large part punitive, replacing it with something designed solely to stabilize the krogan population.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 21, 2016 22:16:29 GMT
Hey, I'm not saying krogan breeding numbers aren't pants-on-head stupid for any species that's not at the bottom of the food chain. But for the purpose of the setting where we have to accept certain things as given (like curing "death by planetary impact") I think we have to accept that somehow, the krogan could, given proper time to develop, find a way to stabilize their population. Otherwise we might as well exterminate them all now, because even without salarian uplifting, they would have either found their own way to the stars, or blown themselves up for good. I propose we give them that chance, and see what happens. These are not the only options we have. Personally I would have chosen some sort of partial gradual cure for the Genophage. Possibly something that will lower the number of fertile eggs the females can produce, to prevent the trauma of birthing dead offspring. Instead of a thousand every birth for every female, you'll have something more sane, like between one and ten for every birth, this will put them at a higher breeding rate than Human and Asari, but will not risk the galaxy like a thousand cubs per birth will. Mordin explained that creating the genophage in itself is a remarkable feat of biology. Imagine having to reintroduce new ones over and over again to gradually raise the birth rate.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 21, 2016 22:20:55 GMT
Ugh, more confirmation of DAI in space. Fan-frickin-tastic.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 21, 2016 23:40:46 GMT
Ugh, more confirmation of DAI in space. Fan-frickin-tastic. We knew crafting was in the game already. They were obviously not going to revamp the system. Crafting alone won't make the game be Andromeda be inquisition 2.0. As DA2 wasn't Dragon Effect, as much as people feared and complained about.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 21, 2016 23:42:43 GMT
Ugh, more confirmation of DAI in space. Fan-frickin-tastic. Isn't it though?
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 22, 2016 8:55:01 GMT
I doubt they're going to re-enact the genophage a cure plots anyway. The krogans will likely remain non cured. As it was said before, they still have the means to survive, though a change in mentality is needed.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 22, 2016 9:27:57 GMT
I doubt they're going to re-enact the genophage a cure plots anyway. The krogans will likely remain non cured. As it was said before, they still have the means to survive, though a change in mentality is needed. I think that Mac Walters said somewhat vaguely that it was going to be one of the thing that we'll have to deal with in ME:A, so I'd say that it's early to jump to conclusions. Do you recall where? I do hope that he meant more about dealing with being not cured and finding a mean to build their society around that. Doing the same, exact plot and conclusion will be a bit boring.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 22, 2016 10:39:02 GMT
Do you recall where? I do hope that he meant more about dealing with being not cured and finding a mean to build their society around that. Doing the same, exact plot and conclusion will be a bit boring. He wasn't very clear, and it likely won't be the same plot (obviously). I think it's from the thread of him answering questions? Can't say for sure. Thanks for the info. I'll check it.
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Post by lundajfs on Dec 22, 2016 11:02:28 GMT
Does ANYONE still believe it is not going to be Dragon Age Inquisition in space? proofs are laid bare
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 22, 2016 11:18:09 GMT
Does ANYONE still believe it is not going to be Dragon Age Inquisition in space? proofs are laid bare As much as Dragon Age 2 was Dragon Effect. Which means it won't. Does ANYONE still believe it is not going to be Dragon Age Inquisition in space? proofs are laid bare They did say they looked at TW3 to see how to integrate side quests and make them something that makes sense for the main plot, or something. So probably not as bad as DA:I. On the other hand I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the new version of elfroot collection, maybe they'll handle it better this time. They'll likely improve on the open world system based on the previous experience and criticism and looking on TW3, as you said. I prefer to remain cautious, though the criticism will be greater compared to DAI if the didn't manage to improve substantially on it. I cut them some slack for DAI since it was their first try (the fact that CDPR did a better job at their first try doesn't mean it's easy), but improvement is needed now.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 22, 2016 11:30:42 GMT
Do you recall where? I do hope that he meant more about dealing with being not cured and finding a mean to build their society around that. Doing the same, exact plot and conclusion will be a bit boring. He wasn't very clear, and it likely won't be the same plot (obviously). I think it's from the thread of him answering questions? Can't say for sure. It was in one of the interviews he did shortly after the gameplay trailer release. It's floating around here somewhere. And I definitely got the impression it won't be a major plot point (which is a good thing imo)...but you're right he was vague.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 22, 2016 11:44:47 GMT
Does ANYONE still believe it is not going to be Dragon Age Inquisition in space? proofs are laid bare As much as Dragon Age 2 was Dragon Effect. Which means it won't. They did say they looked at TW3 to see how to integrate side quests and make them something that makes sense for the main plot, or something. So probably not as bad as DA:I. On the other hand I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the new version of elfroot collection, maybe they'll handle it better this time. They'll likely improve on the open world system based on the previous experience and criticism and looking on TW3, as you said. I prefer to remain cautious, though the criticism will be greater compared to DAI if the didn't manage to improve substantially on it. I cut them some slack for DAI since it was their first try (the fact that CDPR did a better job at their first try doesn't mean it's easy), but improvement is needed now. You would think so. And I certainly hope so. But given the emphasis on crafting and them showing the whole scanning mechanic, I'm not optimistic it's a significant improvement. The whole farming for schematics and materials to spend hours crafting "cool" looking stuff that's barely better than random stuff you pickup is just more of the same. For it to be fun...or at the very least satisfying, there needs to be a dozen unique and legitimately cool looking armors and a couple dozen weapons on top of the random finds. I liked the TW3's approach where you just find what you need during random encounters and quests...I definitely don't want to have to fly to 8 different worlds to collect all the materials necessary to craft something. If that's what it is, I'll ignore that boring BS.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 22, 2016 11:51:22 GMT
As much as Dragon Age 2 was Dragon Effect. Which means it won't. They'll likely improve on the open world system based on the previous experience and criticism and looking on TW3, as you said. I prefer to remain cautious, though the criticism will be greater compared to DAI if the didn't manage to improve substantially on it. I cut them some slack for DAI since it was their first try (the fact that CDPR did a better job at their first try doesn't mean it's easy), but improvement is needed now. You would think so. And I certainly hope so. But given the emphasis on crafting and them showing the whole scanning mechanic, I'm not optimistic it's a significant improvement. The whole farming for schematics and materials to spend hours crafting "cool" looking stuff that's barely better than random stuff you pickup is just more of the same. For it to be fun...or at the very least satisfying, there needs to be a dozen unique and legitimately cool looking armors and a couple dozen weapons on top of the random finds. I liked the TW3's approach where you just find what you need during random encounters and quests...I definitely don't want to have to fly to 8 different worlds to collect all the materials necessary to craft something. If that's what it is, I'll ignore that boring BS. Crafting and scanning in themselves aren't necessarily bad, or as bad as in DAI. It depends on how the features are implemented. An example is that the mineral you found in the VGA footage gave us, if I recall, more resource in terms of number them in DAI. This, among having the mining system implement in the nomad of in some automatic way, might make the resource gathering less tedious.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 22, 2016 12:40:31 GMT
Crafting and scanning in themselves aren't necessarily bad, or as bad as in DAI. It depends on how the features are implemented. An example is that the mineral you found in the VGA footage gave us, if I recall, more resource in terms of number them in DAI. This, among having the mining system implement in the nomad of in some automatic way, might make the resource gathering less tedious. The way I see it, gradually improving your equipment and abilities based on the loot you pick up is a basic RPG requirement: kill things, explore, find treasure, earn XP... Scanning for minerals is just an interesting way to get loot that can help you customize your character. That's what RPG's are all about. Where it falls down is if it becomes a tedious chore and, more importantly, if it becomes a necessary tedious chore. That remains to be seen but there's every indication that they are aware of the dangers of that and are trying to avoid going down that route.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 22, 2016 13:41:39 GMT
I doubt they're going to re-enact the genophage cure plots anyway. The krogans will likely remain non cured. As it was said before, they still have the means to survive, though a change in mentality is needed. I believe Mac said in an interview that the Genophage would be "addressed" in Andromeda. Now, whether that is just a mention of it as a nod to the previous titles, or yet another retread of an old plot line is anyone's guess. I really hope we aren't due for a Genophage choice 2.0 in Andromeda. EDIT: Doh, major ninja-ed on that one, I definitively need more coffee.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 22, 2016 14:24:59 GMT
I doubt they're going to re-enact the genophage a cure plots anyway. The krogans will likely remain non cured. As it was said before, they still have the means to survive, though a change in mentality is needed. Tank-bred?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 22, 2016 14:40:27 GMT
There's also a final danger with the "sink or swim" solution of a complete cure. While you are likely right that this may very well end up with a disaster for Krogan or them becoming de-facto slaves, if by some kind of miracle they manage to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and survive and eventually thrive, you will end up eventually with a a modern version of the Krogan that has access to modern technology, which are still biologically superior both on the individual level and in reproduction rate, and nursing a grudge that's probably even bigger than they ever had against the rest of the galaxy. So IMO, if most results for a complete cure contain disaster in some form, you might as well not cure it. If not for the idea of mercy, there's really no reason to do it. Unless you're really committed to a survival of the fittest idea. As much as I think the krogan have no chance to do much more than get by, if they are able to be cunning, slowly build up in secret and strike back when least expected and win... well then they deserve to rule the galaxy. Though I suppose you could also make the case that curing themselves of the genophage with everyone thinking it's still on and then doing that other stuff is even more impressive.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 22, 2016 15:03:53 GMT
Well, I guess if you are a follower of the Sith Code that makes sense... Also, curing themselves of the Genophage doesn't seem to me as far fetched as you may think, despite Mordin's comments about Okeer, someone like him could have had a good chance to do it, especially if he stayed hidden while doing it. Even if he wasn't as smart as Mordin, when you can live more than a thousand years you have enough time for trial and error, not to mention learning. Okeer was a bit of a missed opportunity actually. He had interesting ideas about dealing with the genophage. Very Sith-like as well, if I recall. I think if there are more like him the krogan can be a threat again. He both refuses to be victimized by it or to blame all his woes on it and "overcomes" it in a way that's along the lines of what you said needed to happen- a move away from hordes and We Have Reserves and more into stronger individuals. I think Grunt's ok but costing Okeer to get him kind of sucks.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 22, 2016 15:27:52 GMT
Yeah, but can you imagine Bioware doing a super pragmatic survival-of-the-fittest kind of character as a companion instead of the low hanging fruit of Grunt the goofy teenager? Especially a cerebral type rather than someone like Zaeed?... (heh... Zaeed, I can't forget the cop-out in his personal mission, how you can get his loyalty despite taking his revenge from him by using the magic of paragon-ism) They like to encourage idealism in their games, to the point where clicking the Paragon option is usually the "I win" button. If they had someone like him they'll probably use him as an object lesson for how terrible his mind set is.I really wish they'd learn how to stand back a little, let characters and stories speak for themselves instead of constantly using characters and events as mouth pieces. They do sort of do that. Her name is Miranda. Did you know all she ever wanted was to be a normal girl? And how you have to jump through hoops to avoid the rather obvious redemption by death arc with her? Yet another missed opportunity there too, having her and Grunt compare notes about what it means to be created to be perfect. Grunt may have his flaws but at least daddy issues doesn't seem to be one of them. On a less bitter note, I think they hit some of those points with Javik. He's pretty unrepentantly ruthless and is never soundly proven wrong. And even if he was just made that way by war, I do enjoy the deconstruction of the Protheans as benevolent Precursors. And funny thing about Zaeed but I torched that refinery for the longest time because I just assumed he wouldn't be loyal otherwise.
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