Thrombin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 20, 2016 14:02:29 GMT
Meh on the crafting, I don't like it enough to get hype, don't dislike it enough to be deflated. Bioware always promises morally complex decision making, sometimes they even deliver. Where they fail is when good boy decisions consistently result in good consequences whereas bad/pragmatic decisions blow up in your face somewhere down the line. The idea of companions dying was interesting but since that was just conjecture and Walters already shot it down(?) I'm gonna miss it until we hear more. Would have been nice though, as long as they don't go the Telltale route (assuming there are future games) like they did with Morinth. The idea that doing the right thing always comes good in the end is an uplifting story of hope and positivity. Karma is a bitch and bad guys always get their just deserts. I don't, necessarily, think that's a bad thing. The trouble with being more realistic and true to life is that your escapist adventure ends up getting disappointing and depressing. A problem I tend to have increasingly with some of the more gritty realistic drama these days I think ME3 got the balance right. Sometimes paragon resulted in worse results than renegade and vice-versa but it didn't prevent you from achieving the end goal and it didn't make you unhappy with your choices. Different choices led to different results but, if you had decided on that character for your Shepard you were usually fine with the consequences. You were being true to the character and it never felt like you were being punished for that. As for characters dying. Mac may have said your squad mates can't die but there may be plenty of other people in the game who could die due to your choices and who you may have come to care about.
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Post by hipi07 on Dec 20, 2016 14:07:12 GMT
I can get my squadmates killed?
thank god
I was afraid I wouldn't be able to for a second.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 20, 2016 14:25:01 GMT
I can get my squadmates killed? thank godI was afraid I wouldn't be able to for a second. You can't. Walters already said it. The OP is just his personal view of the interview.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 20, 2016 14:26:36 GMT
I hope that by grey morality they don't mean being like DAI, a game which thinks it's mature but is afraid to deal with mature themes. I think a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... he, what a delusion. "Grey" is OP's interpretation of the German text. "Grauzone" is just what comes to mind when you hear about a thing being not black nor white but with more shades in between. What I get from the article is that there won't be absolutes anymore. I'd argue that there were not absolutes in the ME trilogy in the first place. Seeing paragon as good and renegade as evil is just plain wrong.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 20, 2016 14:56:27 GMT
It does suck none of the squadmates can be killed. So that means I may not complete many playthroughs. One of the best scenes is seeing the memorial wall completely filled with names and having Shepard survive. excellent.
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ssanyesz
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 20, 2016 14:58:53 GMT
I hope that by grey morality they don't mean being like DAI, a game which thinks it's mature but is afraid to deal with mature themes. I think a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... he, what a delusion. Hah... hahaha... ha... yea, right. I've yet to see BW (or any other developer, for that matter) taking the risk of making a hard R game... and I'm not talking about vapid violence. I don't know, Dragon Age 1 was dark enough, letting demons possess young bodies, DA2 had a fair amount of darkness in it too. With DAI they started this shades of grey mantra, and it effected the game too, not just the choices, it became generic, or how sould i put it, grey fantasy, or shades-of-grey-fantasy-TM. Maybe growing out red lirium from people was the darkest thing it had, iirc. Somehow it lost its darkness and brutality of the DA franchise. I'm trying to remember what evil and grotesque things DAI had, but i can't remember any. I'm not saying MEA should be a dark story, but i hope i can play a brutal pathfinder too, but i want to play an optimistic kind one too. I want to play a xenophobic, i want to play many type of pathfinder. I just hope it will have a high replay value, with interesting quests, and branching dialogs with dark options too. I'd like to see some bigger choices without any moral dilemma, but after that choice you explain why you chose that option in any manner you wish. I hope i see a sarcastic pathfinder too. As for characters dying. Mac may have said your squad mates can't die but there may be plenty of other people in the game who could die due to your choices and who you may have come to care about. Sure there is your father, and your sister or brother depending whom you choose to play with.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 20, 2016 15:30:51 GMT
In case of Krogans, this imo not a morally gray area at all. Krogans are recognized as sentient and intelligent beings, so genophage is an immoral (or darksided) act and is clearly marked as such in the game, every step of the way. The only really gray area there is using the unethical research data. The pre-emptive continuing biological warfare against the civilian population based on the assumption of future military culpability is a darksided decision. I can argue that keeping the genophage is actually for their own good more than curing it is. Krogan have zero infrastructure, if their population explodes like it did before, they'll starve and go extinct. Think drell except a thousand times worse and no one's coming to save them. I can also argue their real problem is psychology, not the genophage, and this at least is said by Wrex himself on numerous occasions. So no, it's not quite so clear cut. Of course, how the game presents it is a different matter entirely. Why do we even have to gather raw materials to craft armor? You'd think an expedition of this size and magnitude would carry a metric f-ton of raw materials for repairs, maintenance and production all kinds of equipment. You'd need lots of spare stuff before finding lucrative planets and get mining operations up and running. Yet to make a freaking helmet or a single armor chest piece we have to dig around in the dirt of some random planets and put iron ore and crystals into our interstellar loot backpack? Weird. Yeah, remember when we used to slap omni-gel on everything? Actually, legitimate point. They would've left around the time omni-gel was just being phased out and with limited resources capacity for the trip, there's no way they'd ditch it. Of course the same could be said about overheat sinks in weapons and we know how that turned out. Thanks Obama BioWare. See I would read that at an attempt to make scientifically plausible locations and (hopefully) aliens. So we don't end up with a planet with three foot deep water that somehow still has tidal waves. Actually, that tidal wave was misunderstood. It wasn't a wave per se, in the sense that it didn't travel along the planet but rather remained in a fixed point relative to the black hole it orbited due to immense gravity. Take a look at this diagram: It's the same principle, just on a much larger scale, so imagine the high tide on Miller's planet simply being taller and thinner. So the team was getting closer to the tidal wave because of the planet's rotation; the wave was not moving towards them. Also, love what you did with your avatar I find that hard to wrap my head around. So the water is what, being held suspended by the gravitational pull? That... doesn't make sense. If the gravity of the black hole is enough to pull water off it, why wouldn't it pull all water off? Or finish pulling the water instead of being suspended? The only thing that would suspend any mass like that would be an equal gravitational pull stopping it from moving. And I don't need to tell you the idea of the planet exerting the same pull as a black hole is ridiculous. Or why wouldn't the planet's orbit decay (unless it was and I'm forgetting that part, but still). I can google people explaining it with math so maybe it's a thing, but I'm confused. Also thanks! I disagree with this. Sure, if you didn't shoot Wrex in ME1 and you didn't destroy Maelon's data so that Eve survives then, chances are, curing the Genophage is a good idea but, otherwise, you are given the distinct impression that curing the Genophage is leaving the door open to Krogan aggression and them once more becoming a huge threat to the Galaxy after the war. It's really not a good idea! Even in the best scenario with Wrex and Eve alive, there's no guarantee that they will be able to steer the Krogan to becoming more peaceful and civilized. They won't live forever and Krogan are heavily predisposed towards violence. With Krogan females laying thousands of eggs at a time their population is going to spiral out of control. The Genophage was done for very good reason and the morality of that choice and reversing that choice was heavily in the gray, IMO. I'll admit I don't know first hand what a scenario without Wrex or Eve is like, but regardless, if the game portrayed it that way, then the game is wrong. I've argued in other places that krogan becoming a galactic threat again is about as likely as the Protheans returning. Simply put, they have nothing. Take EDI's discussion of the logistics of deploying krogan to Palaven and extrapolate for a new Rebellion. It can't happen. And really, you can forget about ships and fleets, since krogan lack the infrastructure on Tuchanka to even support basic needs like food and medicine. Consider the outside support they've been receiving even prior to the war (was it the turians or the asari who organized food drops every now and then) and their self-destructive tendencies which have nothing to do with the genophage and everything to do with krogan mentality. Now apply that in a post Reaper war setting where the other races a) are in no mood for further shenaningans, have plenty to do rebuilding and feeding their own and c) it's really implausible they're that stupid to arm and supply the krogan a second time, even if they had surpluses to spare somehow. Curing the genophage should be a mixed bag, but not for fear of krogan agression. If the krogan don't manage their own population and pull themselves out of their self-destructive tendencies, curing the genophage sentences their entire race to death by starvation. Even with Wrex and Eve, who as you say are only two krogan and aren't guaranteed to fully be able to control their entire race. I agree with your last paragraph but not for the sake of the galaxy, but for the sake of the krogan. The genophage, punitive and brutal though it may have been, was doing what the krogan couldn't or wouldn't do- manage their population. The flip side argument to it is we shouldn't be playing God even with good intentions, or we should be letting nature take its course. The cure gives the krogan the power of choice over their fate but also the ultimate freedom- the freedom to fuck up and die.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 20, 2016 15:31:18 GMT
"Grey" is OP's interpretation of the German text. "Grauzone" is just what comes to mind when you hear about a thing being not black nor white but with more shades in between. What I get from the article is that there won't be absolutes anymore. I'd argue that there were not absolutes in the ME trilogy in the first place. Seeing paragon as good and renegade as evil is just plain wrong. No matter the label - they represent prety much absolutes.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 20, 2016 15:32:51 GMT
It looks different when viewing that page in English. The word betray is used way too loosely.
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Post by Fredward on Dec 20, 2016 15:44:03 GMT
The idea that doing the right thing always comes good in the end is an uplifting story of hope and positivity. Karma is a bitch and bad guys always get their just deserts. I don't, necessarily, think that's a bad thing. The trouble with being more realistic and true to life is that your escapist adventure ends up getting disappointing and depressing. A problem I tend to have increasingly with some of the more gritty realistic drama these days It is a bad thing, for me. In Sunless Sea you can be a cannibal, not out of desperation (always) but just cuz you like eating people and it makes some quests easier. You can sell stolen memories burrowed out of people's brains by bees (an extremely painful process that leaves empty husks behind) for very lucrative prices. While these actions occasionally have consequences (caught with the red honey (the stolen memories) or someone not helping you a quest is closed off cuz cannibals can't do it) it's always natural and logical. It doesn't feel contrived so that the universe gives you your karmic payload. And I, for one, really appreciate it because it means if you choose NOT to do bad things you're doing it purely because you don't want to be awful. You're not avoiding it because, in the back of your mind, the genre convention fairy is whispering "Save the barmaid and she will become a queen and reward you greatly in the future! HooOOOOooooOOOooo!" you're not doing it cuz it's wrong. It makes it feel like you're actually taking a principled stance, despite the benefits you could gain from being evil. I'm not saying the game should go out of its way to kick you in the teeth cuz that IS depressing but good intentions shouldn't always mean best results and being ruthless shouldn't always lead to a slap on the wrist. I think ME3 got the balance right. Sometimes paragon resulted in worse results than renegade and vice-versa but it didn't prevent you from achieving the end goal and it didn't make you unhappy with your choices. I haven't played ME3 in years but when did paragon result in a worse result?
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 20, 2016 16:15:52 GMT
I'd argue that there were not absolutes in the ME trilogy in the first place. Seeing paragon as good and renegade as evil is just plain wrong. No matter the label - they represent prety much absolutes. In a what ways? If you pick major choices, their are always nuanced. And generally dialogue you had three options in ME1 and ME2, so nothing absolute. In ME3 they lost their way with the dialogue however.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 20, 2016 16:22:41 GMT
Hah... hahaha... ha... yea, right. I've yet to see BW (or any other developer, for that matter) taking the risk of making a hard R game... and I'm not talking about vapid violence. I don't know, Dragon Age 1 was dark enough, letting demons possess young bodies, DA2 had a fair amount of darkness in it too. But dark is different from mature. I mean, your zombie mom in DA2 was pretty dark, but I always found it more comical then depressing. The game engine didn't help, everything looked bad. You know, there is a codex entry that for me illustrates the problem with DA, at least with Inquisition. It's a letter from a guy who saw a skirmish between rebel mages and templars with some civilians caught in the middle (or something of the sorts), he writes saying he can't forget what he saw and begs the Maker to make him forget. First it felt very modern, something out of a soldier that went to Iraq, and not a peasant from medieval times. But mostly it was tell not show. Dragon Age has a lot of that, especially with more controversial and cruel aspects of war.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 20, 2016 16:59:25 GMT
I hope that by grey morality they don't mean being like DAI, a game which thinks it's mature but is afraid to deal with mature themes. I think a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... he, what a delusion. Hah... hahaha... ha... yea, right. I've yet to see BW (or any other developer, for that matter) taking the risk of making a hard R game... and I'm not talking about vapid violence. I wouldn't need the vapid nudity of GoT, either. The reality presented, though, could be fascinating, in the right setting. The delicate flowers of the BSN often accuse The Witcher of all sorts of nonsense, thanks to its less sanitized presentation of a medieval world. I'm not sure what they'd do if a true-to-life game was released. Heads would explode. I think it's good that the line is drawn somewhere, in terms of graphic representations of acts. (I believe we have addressed that, though.) From most realistic subject matter, though, I see no reason to hide. The success of novels and programming that depict such things proves that some can handle mature content. Anyway, it's not BioWare's thing. I'll return to topic, now.
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Thrombin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 20, 2016 18:07:26 GMT
The idea that doing the right thing always comes good in the end is an uplifting story of hope and positivity. Karma is a bitch and bad guys always get their just deserts. I don't, necessarily, think that's a bad thing. The trouble with being more realistic and true to life is that your escapist adventure ends up getting disappointing and depressing. A problem I tend to have increasingly with some of the more gritty realistic drama these days It is a bad thing, for me. In Sunless Sea you can be a cannibal, not out of desperation (always) but just cuz you like eating people and it makes some quests easier. You can sell stolen memories burrowed out of people's brains by bees (an extremely painful process that leaves empty husks behind) for very lucrative prices. While these actions occasionally have consequences (caught with the red honey (the stolen memories) or someone not helping you a quest is closed off cuz cannibals can't do it) it's always natural and logical. It doesn't feel contrived so that the universe gives you your karmic payload. Personally, I actually believe that the universe does give you your Karmic payload. If not in this life then the next one. So I'm glad when a game supports my belief system Each to their own. I've listed a few of them on this thread but, here are some I remember: Saving Maelon's data in ME2 leads to Eve dying in ME3 Saving the Geth Heretics in ME2 leads to more Quarian casualties in ME3 (and makes it more difficult to reconcile both races) Saving the Council in ME1 causes serious casualties and losses amongst the Earth fleets affecting your ME3 war assets. Allowing refugee ships to land in ME3 despite the overcrowding causes issues which negatively affect your war assets. Curing the Genophage gets Mordin killed and loses Salarian support (Mordin can be saved with the right options). Not going Renegade when talking to Kelly Chambers in ME3 gets her killed In Samara's recruitment mission in ME2 if you go paragon and don't kill Elnora when you meet her she will end up killing the Volus If you save Rana, the Asari Scientist on Virmire in ME1 there is a news report that she went crazy and killed a bunch of people and then committed suicide in ME3. If you were renegade and killed the Rachni Queen in ME1 but go paragon and rescue the Queen Clone in ME3 the Rachni will get sent to the Crucible but end up turning bad and killing people. I'm sure there are more.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 20, 2016 18:44:01 GMT
No matter the label - they represent prety much absolutes. In a what ways? If you pick major choices, their are always nuanced. And generally dialogue you had three options in ME1 and ME2, so nothing absolute. In ME3 they lost their way with the dialogue however. They are absolute in the way the player character adresses the topic at hand. You wouldn't have a Paragon option where Shepard would start punching, right?
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 20, 2016 18:45:29 GMT
*´¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) (¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ Mass Effect Andromeda
Grey moral choices may be a thing back in to good 'ole MW. However, in Andromeda, it's all about humanity's survival. Ergo, to me, every choice has this one primal goal in mind. There should be events in the game where your choices are to lick ass, kick butt or take some abuse. Aliens / squad mates normally will respect a hard ass but a fair one. At least I hope this is the case in the game.
I'm looking forward to see how this "freedom of choices and consequences" mechanic is implemented. Certainly, I found DA:I marketing to be high on rhetoric but low on substance. And though I said I'm looking forward to this mechanic, my expectations are set low. ... facial animations is an example of high enthusiasm vs poor delivery.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 20, 2016 18:53:15 GMT
In a what ways? If you pick major choices, their are always nuanced. And generally dialogue you had three options in ME1 and ME2, so nothing absolute. In ME3 they lost their way with the dialogue however. They are absolute in the way the player character adresses the topic at hand. You wouldn't have a Paragon option where Shepard would start punching, right? But is that a problem? That's just the how the structure of the dialogue/narrative is built. It doesn't speak about overall morality and good/evil choices, which is what has been discussed here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 18:53:27 GMT
EDIT:
Boo. I missed the fact that none of the squadmates can die. I'm a bit disappointed, but oh well.
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Post by midnightwolf on Dec 20, 2016 18:54:58 GMT
It does suck none of the squadmates can be killed. So that means I may not complete many playthroughs. One of the best scenes is seeing the memorial wall completely filled with names and having Shepard survive. excellent. Lol. I bet I can guess which name you enjoyed seeing on that board, the most. To the OP. Crafting sounds good, as long as I don't have to spend HOURS gathering materials. Or worse: spending hours reloading my save just to get the schematic I want, like I did in DA:I. Talk about a borefest!
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Post by themikefest on Dec 20, 2016 19:30:57 GMT
Lol. I bet I can guess which name you enjoyed seeing on that board, the most. Only a few times if my ems was low enough. For Shepard to survive, that character remains alive unfortunately.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 20, 2016 20:09:01 GMT
Hey, Some new info released today via German games magazine GameStar... www.gamestar.de/spiele/mass-effect-andromeda/artikel/mass_effect_andromeda,48839,3306670.html Bottom line (from an Interview with Fabrice Condominas): The story decisions will not be as "black and white" as they have been in the past, but be more "shades of grey"... 'cause that's what one has to do with game stories these days. Decisions are also farther reaching again, down to a point where they might cost a party members life (like in ME1). Crafting will be similar to DAI, including material collection, and we'll have to find blueprints to make new gear and modules. Also: The Tempest and Nomad will be upgrade able, but not a point where the changes "break" the predefined silhouette. Meaning: Tuning and color changes, but no external modules/weapons etc. That's the gist of it. GameStar is releasing new info regularly, I'll update accordingly if there is something of interest... *´¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) (¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ Mass Effect Andromeda
Crafting Navigation in DA:I was horribly convoluted (for the PC). So, Bio will offer us blueprints for gear upgrades because, less face it, in a sci-fi game with aliens around, the "loot crates" won't contain human gloves, boots, armour or helmets. This means exploration = gear materials, vaults may mean gold+blueprints and I hope to God there won't be three stations to upgrade you gear. There should be a computer controlled fabrication unit that will spit out the gear you want with the blueprints+materials at hand. Better yet, I'd like to see an AI agent optimally upgrade your gear on your command. Let the primitives in Dragon Age do their own smithing.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 20, 2016 20:17:43 GMT
"Grey morality", eh?
So instead of deciding whether to save the orphanage or burn it down, we choose which orphanage we want to burn down "for the greater good"?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 20, 2016 21:15:08 GMT
Quick question for those who did not like the crafting in DA I, collecting all the materials:
When you were out and about did you spend play time suggestions just collecting crafting materials?
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
inherit
402
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,647
Iakus
21,290
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 20, 2016 21:34:23 GMT
Quick question for those who did not like the crafting in DA I, collecting all the materials: When you were out and about did you spend play time suggestions just collecting crafting materials? I lost track of the number of trips I made to the Hissing Wastes waiting for that frakking dog merchant to carry the armor schematic I wanted. I accumulated a LOT of volcanic aurum in the process, let me tell you!
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colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Dec 20, 2016 21:41:25 GMT
Quick question for those who did not like the crafting in DA I, collecting all the materials: When you were out and about did you spend play time suggestions just collecting crafting materials? I lost track of the number of trips I made to the Hissing Wastes waiting for that frakking dog merchant to carry the armor schematic I wanted. I accumulated a LOT of volcanic aurum in the process, let me tell you! I never had to do that. Or at leat never wanted to. Granted there were a few schematics I want I have never found but I am not going to intentionally toture myself too much when there are other options available.
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