Raga
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Post by Raga on Dec 29, 2016 17:45:12 GMT
Why would you take you biotic amp out though? How does thinking "you know Cloak might be handy here" translate to yanking out something plugged into your brain? Also, some tech that's designed to plug into a port in your head to produce singularities seems orders of magnitude different from something you stick on an omnitool to create flashbang grenades. Maybe they will unveil some new tech that explains it, but it's a steep hill to climb. I'm not saying the feature shouldn't exist. I'm saying I probably won't use it because it seems pretty lore breaking to me. If the game is basically unplayable without using it, *that* I would find irritating.
I mostly role tech classes anyway so this probably just means I will refrain from using biotic abilities.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 29, 2016 18:20:43 GMT
Why would you take you biotic amp out though? How does thinking "you know Cloak might be handy here" translate to yanking out something plugged into your brain? Also, some tech that's designed to plug into a port in your head to produce singularities seems orders of magnitude different from something you stick on an omnitool to create flashbang grenades. Maybe they will unveil some new tech that explains it, but it's a steep hill to climb. I'm not saying the feature shouldn't exist. I'm saying I probably won't use it because it seems pretty lore breaking to me. If the game is basically unplayable without using it, *that* I would find irritating. I mostly role tech classes anyway so this probably just means I will refrain from using biotic abilities. I'm not saying that the implant is yanked out and replaced. I'm suggesting that it is electronically re-programmed or re-configured using some new tech unique to the Pathfinder (possibly enabled by the AI/VI Sam). That concept is already consistent with the Lore. There's a device in the med-bay in ME3 where you can change your bonus power. It can be biotic, tech or combat-related but it can be changed using the med-bay device whenever you want (albeit, at a cost). Note that the Bio-Amp and Biotic Implant are two different things. The bio-amp was the thing you could buy and sell in a stores in ME1 and freely swap between your biotic characters to amplify their biotic powers. same as the omni-tool could be swapped between your tech characters. The implant is the thing that is actually embedded inside you which enables you to control and focus your biotic power through the bio-amp to produce the right effect. When you swapped omni-tools or bio-amps between characters in ME1 you didn't swap their powers. They still had the same powers regardless of which omni-tool or bio-amp they were equipped with. All powers - biotic, tech, even combat-ones - are enabled by implanted tech doing the actual effect or implanted tech controlling an omni-tool or bio-amp to produce the effect. If you look at the class-selection screens in ME3 you will see that every class has a different configuration of embedded technology inside the character. So, if the powers are all ultimately derived from embedded technology it makes perfect sense that you should be able to change your available powers by reconfiguring that technology. What's unique about Pathfinders, I believe, is that they have a way to reconfigure their embedded tech on the fly without requiring the need to actually swap out the implants physically.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 29, 2016 18:36:37 GMT
]I'm not saying that the implant is yanked out and replaced. I'm suggesting that it is electronically re-programmed or re-configured using some new tech unique to the Pathfinder (possibly enabled by the AI/VI Sam). That concept is already consistent with the Lore. There's a device in the med-bay in ME3 where you can change your bonus power. It can be biotic, tech or combat-related but it can be changed using the med-bay device whenever you want (albeit, at a cost). That is gameplay and story segregation, simply a way to respec your character without any in-game lore behind it. Besides which, those are BONUS powers, which you don't even need. This is different. This is everything about your character. Including stuff which, in-game, can't be done short of brain surgery and serious physical and mental training. And while it may not be strictly necessary to win the game, it's fairly certain that combat WILL be balanced around using the is ability, meaning those of us who actually like to be consistent would likely find ourselves crippled in actually sticking with a character concept.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Dec 29, 2016 18:53:39 GMT
I get that biotic amps and implants aren't the same thing, but it still remains that removing/reprogramming a biotic amp midfight is a strange thing to do (unless you are replacing it with another better amp). The presence of the biotic amp does nothing to prevent you from using an omnitool however you want. Why remove it?
I'm trying to think of an analogy. Say I have a gun and an axe to use as weapons. In some situation, it makes most sense to use the axe. Why would I remove/repurpose the magazine from my gun, thereby rendering it useless, just to use the axe? Better to have the option to use both.
I'll wait and see how they implement it. Hopefully a good explanation is in order, and if not I can just abstain from this particular feature.
As a side note, I always thought adding bonus biotic powers to a non biotic Shepard was weird and I never did it. I just interpreted it as them being a very weak biotic whose primary skills were elsewhere. And even then using non biotic skills didn't suddenly render your biotic bonus ability inert.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 29, 2016 19:04:57 GMT
Iakus: I'm not sure we can change our abilities 'on the fly' as in between missions. While easier then in previous games I was under the impression it'd still work around the ship, and vaguely recall some deve saying it's not possibly to respec during mission, but I'm not sure.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 29, 2016 19:15:38 GMT
Hanako is referring to FemShep auto flirting with both Jacob and Vega without the player's input. If that sort of thing could happen with the old ME then I don't see why it would be any more or less likely to happen with the new ME. Shepard still had a personality, a background and a script that drove the story in the direction they needed it to go. In this case there are now two personalities and two scripts to enjoy instead of one but you still get just as much player agency in determining Ryder's choices and tone as you ever did for Shepard. More so, now, as the tone to take is much more explicit on the MEA dialogue tree and there are now more than two options! The fact it can and probably will happen again in MEA is the problem. What they did with Shepard is a prime example of what I don't want them to do with Ryder and yet not only does it seem to be the case but they are going even farther down that road. You'd still be able to do that if they allowed both personalities as options for Scott and Sarah rather than one for Scott and one for Sarah. I see nothing enjoyable about what they have described. And again, that's not what the dialogue wheel does in MEA. The options aren't the kind of personality you describe, but are literally Head(I'm assuming this means logical), Heart(I'm assuming this means emotional), Professional, and Casual.
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Post by Raga on Dec 29, 2016 19:16:28 GMT
Iakus : I'm not sure we can change our abilities 'on the fly' as in between missions. While easier then in previous games I was under the impression it'd still work around the ship, and vaguely recall some deve saying it's not possibly to respec during mission, but I'm not sure. This would alleviate some of my concern. Though I still have to wonder why they didn't just open up all abilities and let us build our own custom classes and be very generous with retraining terminals/programs/whatever like the respeccing amulets in DAI. If it really is just generous respeccing items or terminals available between missions, I don't quite see why they would sell that as a unique feature. They already had this in several games. The only difference then would be that respeccing is now free, which is welcome and fine. I interpreted his explanation as respeccing not only being free, but being frequent, spontaneous, and expected as a strategy.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 29, 2016 19:16:37 GMT
Iakus : I'm not sure we can change our abilities 'on the fly' as in between missions. While easier then in previous games I was under the impression it'd still work around the ship, and vaguely recall some deve saying it's not possibly to respec during mission, but I'm not sure. The interview certainly reads that way. The example Mike Gamble gave is us changing during a mission.
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Post by Fiery Phoenix on Dec 29, 2016 19:20:44 GMT
Don't get your hopes up for a Steam release, folks. Hasn't it already been demonstrated that EA is done with Steam?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 29, 2016 19:31:08 GMT
No it's not possible to respec during a mission. Change profiles though we can. Which makes sense.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Dec 29, 2016 19:40:55 GMT
So to switch profiles between say Infiltrator and Vanguard I have to have dedicated points in both profiles during previous level-ups? That makes considerably more sense. Though honestly I think what he is saying is kind of opaque without an actual demonstration of how it works. It could mean several different things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 19:48:17 GMT
Classes are an arbitrary gameplay mechanic and so are bonus talents, there's no ingame logic as to why certain classes can use some abilities and others don't. those are once again just arbitrary restrictions for the sake of gameplay balance. substituting permanent classes for temporary profiles is not much more than a shift in gameplay direction.
We do the know the usage of Biotic talents requires extensive physical and mental training, so in that regard the gameplay in Mass Effect never followed it's own narrative considering we could add biotic powers from a terminal, even non-biotic classes could add them with no explantion at all.
A long time ago I did propose an alternative class system of just three profiles, namely combat, tech and biotic. These profiles were designed with a deliberate inbalance: The combat profile would be the least complicated and most straigthforward. The tech profile would have fairly manageable core set of base talents but would become branched with specialisations as the player levels up. Finally the Biotic profile would be the most complex and situational, requiring heavy micro mangement of talents.
This is more or less an extrapolation of what is allready present, Soldier tends to be the most popular class in mainstream surveys by far because most gamers tend go with what is the most straightforward the first time. Soldier was also the most heavily featured class in trailers as well as it being part of the 'default' Shepard.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 29, 2016 20:29:31 GMT
That is gameplay and story segregation, simply a way to respec your character without any in-game lore behind it. Besides which, those are BONUS powers, which you don't even need. This is different. This is everything about your character. Including stuff which, in-game, can't be done short of brain surgery and serious physical and mental training. And while it may not be strictly necessary to win the game, it's fairly certain that combat WILL be balanced around using the is ability, meaning those of us who actually like to be consistent would likely find ourselves crippled in actually sticking with a character concept. I agree it's just a gameplay bonus but they still went to some lengths to give it credibility in-game, otherwise they wouldn't have had it activated by using a device in the med-bay. It would just be an option in the menu or something. I get that biotic amps and implants aren't the same thing, but it still remains that removing/reprogramming a biotic amp midfight is a strange thing to do (unless you are replacing it with another better amp). The presence of the biotic amp does nothing to prevent you from using an omnitool however you want. Why remove it? I'm trying to think of an analogy. Say I have a gun and an axe to use as weapons. In some situation, it makes most sense to use the axe. Why would I remove/repurpose the magazine from my gun, thereby rendering it useless, just to use the axe? Better to have the option to use both. I'll wait and see how they implement it. Hopefully a good explanation is in order, and if not I can just abstain from this particular feature. As a side note, I always thought adding bonus biotic powers to a non biotic Shepard was weird and I never did it. I just interpreted it as them being a very weak biotic whose primary skills were elsewhere. And even then using non biotic skills didn't suddenly render your biotic bonus ability inert. It's not re-programming the amp that I'm suggesting it's reprogramming the implant. You don't need to surgically remove an electronic implant in order to re-program it. We can remotely access pace-makers today, as I understand it, so this doesn't need to be anything more invasive than a remote firmware upgrade. To use your axe vs gun analogy. You only have room to carry 5 weapons in ME3. You can carry a Pistol, an SMG, an Assault Rifle, a Sniper Rifle and a Shotgun but you don't have room for an axe. If you want to carry an Axe you have to get rid of something else to make room for it. For that matter, you can't carry two shotguns. The slots are weapons specific. So essentially you can change your weapon profile in ME3 already. This is just a way to do the same thing for powers. Powers-wise, you only have so many implants. Each one can handle a certain power (or maybe a set of powers) but there's still a finite limit to the number of powers you can have available at any one time. By being able to re-program those implants you can switch to a different set of powers. The Lore says Vanguards use L5n implants to be able to use their signature power and Adepts need L5x implants for theirs. So switching between Vanguard and Adept powers is just a case of re-programming an L5n so that it works like an L5x instead (or vice-versa). That doesn't have to require surgery. Just a remote firmware update (or reconfiguration by nano-bots, or, however else they want to implement it). Now you still need to be biotic to use biotic powers but if you don't have the implants you can't use biotics in any effective way. That's why you have implants. You also still need to be trained in their use. But the Pathfinder is biotic and is trained in multiple disciplines, including biotics. So that's already covered. Honestly, I think it's all perfectly feasible lore-wise.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 29, 2016 21:46:29 GMT
The spontaneous respeccing thing sounds weird to me. How can I magically be a biotic in one fight and then cease being a biotic in the next? I might move between techy specs (Infiltrator to Engineer say) because that seems plausible. Or between biotic specs (Vanguard to Sentinel) but being able to spontaneously turn biotics on and off altogether sounds extremely immersion breaking. This has been discussed throughout the thread but it has always been the case that you can't use biotics properly without a biotic implant connecting to a bio-amp. Different types of biotic implant enable different biotic abilities (L5n implant enables the Vanguard to do Biotic Charge, L5x implants enables the Adept to use Singularity). You need a natural biotic ability and training to use these implants but without the implants no amount of ability or training will enable you to use these powers effectively, if at all. So since, in Lore, these powers are enabled by implanted tech then reconfiguring that tech on the fly to perform another function, such as causing an Omni-Tool to create an Engineer's Drone or Turret, would be entirely in keeping with the idea that you can no longer use these biotic powers when the implant is in that configuration. Merry★* 。 • ˚ ˚ ˛ ˚ ˛ • •。★Christmas★ 。* 。 ° 。 ° ˛˚˛ * _Π_____*。*˚ ˚ ˛ •˛•˚ */______/~\。˚ ˚ ˛ ˚ ˛ •˛• ˚ | 田田 |門| ˚And a happy new year!
Normally, I guess that's true. However, there is a Mystery surrounding the Ryders. This Mystery probable explains how the Ryders do what they can do. Sticking to the old Lore as an immutable Bible ties the naysayers into knots, imo.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Dec 29, 2016 21:48:14 GMT
It still doesn't explain why abilities that previously had nothing to do with implants or amps (cloak, fortification, whatever) would now have to be dictated by reprogramming some implant in my head or why I would want to do that when I could have both implant (biotic abilities) and omnitool (non biotic abilities) at the same time. I've always had room for both, hence the existence of a hybrid tech/biotic and soldier/biotic class.
It seems like what they are trying to do is jerryrig omnitools and biotic tech to be interchangeable more or less or else mutually exclusive. That's what is lore breaking.
I still maintain it's hard to know for sure what he is talking about without a demonstration of it. That's what I'll wait for I guess.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 29, 2016 21:56:09 GMT
So to switch profiles between say Infiltrator and Vanguard I have to have dedicated points in both profiles during previous level-ups? That makes considerably more sense. Though honestly I think what he is saying is kind of opaque without an actual demonstration of how it works. It could mean several different things. I think how its going to work is that as soon as you get three points to spend, and spend them on different abilities, you unlock your first profile. Honestly it seems people are confusing profiles with classes. Even if they share the same name as the classes from the OT. There are no classes in the game. There likely are three ability trees you can use, combat, tech, biotic, when you unlock powers from certain trees you unlock certain profiles which you can then swap out at will with one another without having to respec. Respeccing is something else entirely because respeccing actually means you trade out an ability for another ability entirely where you no longer have access to that first ability. How this is going to work in combat is they want you, if you have the profiles unlocked, to be able to switch between them at will based on the situation/ preferences of the player on the press of a button (or two). I think anyways. So if you are in a CQB situation you may want to load your 'Vanguard' profile which will have abilities with both combat and biotic abilities. But if down the hall you are in a wide open space you will want to load your 'Infiltrator' profile (tech + combat) with abilities which will help deal with the specific combat abilities. Now keep in mind I believe you can load whatever abilities you want to in these profiles. So you can have an 'Infiltrator' Profile with Tactical Cloak, Marksman, and Overload. These profiles, as has been theorized in this thread (by Thrombin I believe) will be tied to your weapons. Which is how you will change between them. You will have an Infiltrator profile tied into your Sniper rife, and a Vangaurd profile tied into your Shotgun. Which you can also trade out between different weapons of the same weapon type which only, in my mind, seeks to further confirm this theory. Based on all the knowledge we have at this point this will be the only real way to be able to switch between them. Its certainly the easiest way to do so. Now, I believe that when you load up a profile and create one using various abilities of your choosing and actively use it, I think each profile has various passive buffs associated with it which will encourage/ help out a certain play style. IE shotgun damage bonus/ power recharge bonus for those wielding a 'vanguard' profile. As far as respeccing is concerned that is something entirely different. It happens on the Tempest, away from combat, in something called the 'gallery'. The gallery is where you can change abilities, for free, to try out different builds (profiles). Sure this could be concerning to some people but what people have to keep in mind is the swapping out of profiles and the swapping out of abilities via respeccing are entirely different things. However, all this is under the assumption that we are not suffereing from BioWare's marketing eam not knowing what the heck they are talking about (again). And that Gamble is not mixing up his apples and his oranges. We really won't know until they show us how the systems work which may not even happen so we have to wait until gameplay. But I really do believe that this is how it will work. And really if it does work this way this sounds like the best combat system ever conceived for a video game. TLDR version: Profiles= swapping between abilities you alreayd have, respeccing= getting an entirely new set of abilities.
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Post by nanotm on Dec 29, 2016 22:28:02 GMT
YOU WHAT?!1 This is bullshit. Space magic crap taken to the next level type of bullshit. So you basically cheat through the game with this system in a way. How the flying balls changing "classes" in the middle of a combat makes sense? not only lore wise, but gameplay wise. I mean yeah, it's cool to be a "pandora's box" but are you kidding me? So if I don't like the type of combat I have in front of me being a vanguard (I know there's no classes really, but you guys understand where I'm going) I just switch to whatever the heck is more easier for me? like camping as an infiltrator? A minute back I was a biotic user and now I'm a stealthy tech/combat expert. The heck is that?? The thing with classes is that you pick one and you stick with it. Yes of course you'll have types of combat not suited for that class in your journey, but that exactly is the fun part. It's called roleplay, and it's called replayability. And they just took that away? how could that improve the gameplay? Mother of Santa riding a Harley Davidson on Easter's eve! Gee... I genuinely want to keep an open mind about this game, and I agree is short sighted to judge when is not even out yet and I'm definitely haven't played it. But damn... it's hard when they pull out this type of oddities. if you think about it logically the only reason why a biotic isn't a tech expert is the amount of training required to choose those follow up career paths, however if you can utilise sleep training then there's no realistic reason why you could be multi discipline trained to expert level in everything, tech is just about the ability of the Omni tool, stealth is based off armour, adept /vanguard are based off training in specific moves, soldiers are just well trained combat operators with an emphasis on heavier weaponry, so again its just training.... ergo there's no reason why 300+ years of sleep couldn't have been used to learn all of those things and then choosing what skill/s to use are just a matter of accessing the memory stores and turning the Omni tool correctly (because the tools still limited in what it can support) it sounds like it could be seriously cool especially if as you level up your eventually able to upgrade and unlock everything to some degree or another, especially if your can have all the passives active at all times and then hot swap the stuff to the hot keys, sounds good to me because I often wanted to use the reave skill with every other skill set, indeed replayed the game with every class with reave as the optional extra skill
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Post by helios969 on Dec 29, 2016 23:14:32 GMT
YOU WHAT?!1 This is bullshit. Space magic crap taken to the next level type of bullshit. So you basically cheat through the game with this system in a way. How the flying balls changing "classes" in the middle of a combat makes sense? not only lore wise, but gameplay wise. I mean yeah, it's cool to be a "pandora's box" but are you kidding me? So if I don't like the type of combat I have in front of me being a vanguard (I know there's no classes really, but you guys understand where I'm going) I just switch to whatever the heck is more easier for me? like camping as an infiltrator? A minute back I was a biotic user and now I'm a stealthy tech/combat expert. The heck is that?? The thing with classes is that you pick one and you stick with it. Yes of course you'll have types of combat not suited for that class in your journey, but that exactly is the fun part. It's called roleplay, and it's called replayability. And they just took that away? how could that improve the gameplay? Mother of Santa riding a Harley Davidson on Easter's eve! Gee... I genuinely want to keep an open mind about this game, and I agree is short sighted to judge when is not even out yet and I'm definitely haven't played it. But damn... it's hard when they pull out this type of oddities. if you think about it logically the only reason why a biotic isn't a tech expert is the amount of training required to choose those follow up career paths, however if you can utilise sleep training then there's no realistic reason why you could be multi discipline trained to expert level in everything, tech is just about the ability of the Omni tool, stealth is based off armour, adept /vanguard are based off training in specific moves, soldiers are just well trained combat operators with an emphasis on heavier weaponry, so again its just training.... ergo there's no reason why 300+ years of sleep couldn't have been used to learn all of those things and then choosing what skill/s to use are just a matter of accessing the memory stores and turning the Omni tool correctly (because the tools still limited in what it can support) it sounds like it could be seriously cool especially if as you level up your eventually able to upgrade and unlock everything to some degree or another, especially if your can have all the passives active at all times and then hot swap the stuff to the hot keys, sounds good to me because I often wanted to use the reave skill with every other skill set, indeed replayed the game with every class with reave as the optional extra skill It might be logical if we were playing in The Matrix, but this is still supposed to emulate real life. Many of the abilities cannot just be download - "sleep training" as you want to call it - to obtain instant proficiency...many things require years of muscle memory conditioning to perfect. If I downloaded everything about being a virtuoso guitarist into your brain you may end up knowing how to play the guitar, but you still wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso. Basic knowledge type proficiency could be taught as you suggest, but not anything that requires action behind the knowledge.
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Post by nanotm on Dec 29, 2016 23:26:05 GMT
if you think about it logically the only reason why a biotic isn't a tech expert is the amount of training required to choose those follow up career paths, however if you can utilise sleep training then there's no realistic reason why you could be multi discipline trained to expert level in everything, tech is just about the ability of the Omni tool, stealth is based off armour, adept /vanguard are based off training in specific moves, soldiers are just well trained combat operators with an emphasis on heavier weaponry, so again its just training.... ergo there's no reason why 300+ years of sleep couldn't have been used to learn all of those things and then choosing what skill/s to use are just a matter of accessing the memory stores and turning the Omni tool correctly (because the tools still limited in what it can support) it sounds like it could be seriously cool especially if as you level up your eventually able to upgrade and unlock everything to some degree or another, especially if your can have all the passives active at all times and then hot swap the stuff to the hot keys, sounds good to me because I often wanted to use the reave skill with every other skill set, indeed replayed the game with every class with reave as the optional extra skill It might be logical if we were playing in The Matrix, but this is still supposed to emulate real life. Many of the abilities cannot just be download - "sleep training" as you want to call it - to obtain instant proficiency...many things require years of muscle memory conditioning to perfect. If I downloaded everything about being a virtuoso guitarist into your brain you may end up knowing how to play the guitar, but you still wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso. Basic knowledge type proficiency could be taught as you suggest, but not anything that requires action behind the knowledge. in your cryo chamber your covered in electrodes to keep your muscles actively firing to prevent atrophy from occurring, if your advanced enough to be able to install sleep training chances are your advanced enough to be able to program the electrode sequences to trigger in the right order to develop muscle memory of those actions. its not like talking learning the rosetta stone in your sleep here, were talking about full advanced training packages and decades worth of training and knowledge being installed, so theres no reason why you wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso so long as your body had generated the signal memory for triggering the movements as natural movements... everything is always going to be matrix esq when talking about sleep training because that was the first film to ever display such a technique but there it was all about the brain learning something new for the avatar to perform in the reality simulation, here were talking about things playing out in the offline world, there is literally zero reason why you would waste the hundreds of years of training potential when you could be using that time to effectively outgrow normal limitations, and lets face it a pathfinder is going to need something extra special, theres no point being a tactical genius or a tracker if your first interaction is entering an ancient tech facility and exploring the archives.... also I hate to say it but sleep training as an idea (coupled with muscle training in stasis chambers) has been mentioned in sci-fi books since the early 1900's and it was even featured in a couple of dodgy 1960's films..... of course only a truly dedicated insomniac is likely to have stumbled across that sort of information
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Post by colfoley on Dec 29, 2016 23:33:06 GMT
It might be logical if we were playing in The Matrix, but this is still supposed to emulate real life. Many of the abilities cannot just be download - "sleep training" as you want to call it - to obtain instant proficiency...many things require years of muscle memory conditioning to perfect. If I downloaded everything about being a virtuoso guitarist into your brain you may end up knowing how to play the guitar, but you still wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso. Basic knowledge type proficiency could be taught as you suggest, but not anything that requires action behind the knowledge. in your cryo chamber your covered in electrodes to keep your muscles actively firing to prevent atrophy from occurring, if your advanced enough to be able to install sleep training chances are your advanced enough to be able to program the electrode sequences to trigger in the right order to develop muscle memory of those actions. its not like talking learning the rosetta stone in your sleep here, were talking about full advanced training packages and decades worth of training and knowledge being installed, so theres no reason why you wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso so long as your body had generated the signal memory for triggering the movements as natural movements... everything is always going to be matrix esq when talking about sleep training because that was the first film to ever display such a technique but there it was all about the brain learning something new for the avatar to perform in the reality simulation, here were talking about things playing out in the offline world, there is literally zero reason why you would waste the hundreds of years of training potential when you could be using that time to effectively outgrow normal limitations, and lets face it a pathfinder is going to need something extra special, theres no point being a tactical genius or a tracker if your first interaction is entering an ancient tech facility and exploring the archives.... also I hate to say it but sleep training as an idea (coupled with muscle training in stasis chambers) has been mentioned in sci-fi books since the early 1900's and it was even featured in a couple of dodgy 1960's films..... of course only a truly dedicated insomniac is likely to have stumbled across that sort of information Still sounds like a bit of a long shot for me considering this sounds really advanced for the technology that exisists in the ME universe. Simpler solutions are probably more logical at this point in time.
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Post by nanotm on Dec 30, 2016 8:58:27 GMT
in your cryo chamber your covered in electrodes to keep your muscles actively firing to prevent atrophy from occurring, if your advanced enough to be able to install sleep training chances are your advanced enough to be able to program the electrode sequences to trigger in the right order to develop muscle memory of those actions. its not like talking learning the rosetta stone in your sleep here, were talking about full advanced training packages and decades worth of training and knowledge being installed, so theres no reason why you wouldn't be able to play like a virtuoso so long as your body had generated the signal memory for triggering the movements as natural movements... everything is always going to be matrix esq when talking about sleep training because that was the first film to ever display such a technique but there it was all about the brain learning something new for the avatar to perform in the reality simulation, here were talking about things playing out in the offline world, there is literally zero reason why you would waste the hundreds of years of training potential when you could be using that time to effectively outgrow normal limitations, and lets face it a pathfinder is going to need something extra special, theres no point being a tactical genius or a tracker if your first interaction is entering an ancient tech facility and exploring the archives.... also I hate to say it but sleep training as an idea (coupled with muscle training in stasis chambers) has been mentioned in sci-fi books since the early 1900's and it was even featured in a couple of dodgy 1960's films..... of course only a truly dedicated insomniac is likely to have stumbled across that sort of information Still sounds like a bit of a long shot for me considering this sounds really advanced for the technology that exisists in the ME universe. Simpler solutions are probably more logical at this point in time. maybe its advanced but somehow I doubt it, hyper sleep chambers are around for thousands of years and its only logical that sleep training systems would be used with them. spearhead exploration teams would need the knowledge of dozens of trade groups in order to be able to operate without hundreds of people in support of them, you don't send a soldier in to secure the area only for a tech to pop down and tell you its a giant bomb and everyone needs to pull out, you send a fully trained tech /soldier in to clear the area and make sure its safe before you ship in the support folks, even better if your soldier(s) are fully trained up as the support team you only have to put a handful in danger in any one location, so if possible you use lots of multi roll teams as spearhead to maximise effective whilst minimising potential losses, of course that also mean they tend to be much older and less capable (what with all that enhanced learning required) but in a universe where you have hyper sleep chambers then your likely to have the ability to train them and still be using young active bodies
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 30, 2016 12:47:25 GMT
. . also I hate to say it but sleep training as an idea (coupled with muscle training in stasis chambers) has been mentioned in sci-fi books since the early 1900's and it was even featured in a couple of dodgy 1960's films..... of course only a truly dedicated insomniac is likely to have stumbled across that sort of information Still sounds like a bit of a long shot for me considering this sounds really advanced for the technology that exisists in the ME universe. Simpler solutions are probably more logical at this point in time. Actually there is an example of 'sleep training' in Mass Effect. Grunt was taught everything he knew while in his tank. He emerged as a fully educated, fully capable soldier without ever having been in actual combat.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 30, 2016 13:07:29 GMT
It still doesn't explain why abilities that previously had nothing to do with implants or amps (cloak, fortification, whatever) would now have to be dictated by reprogramming some implant in my head or why I would want to do that when I could have both implant (biotic abilities) and omnitool (non biotic abilities) at the same time. I've always had room for both, hence the existence of a hybrid tech/biotic and soldier/biotic class. It seems like what they are trying to do is jerryrig omnitools and biotic tech to be interchangeable more or less or else mutually exclusive. That's what is lore breaking. I still maintain it's hard to know for sure what he is talking about without a demonstration of it. That's what I'll wait for I guess. To be clear, this idea of reprogramming implants is just my idea. We haven't heard the real explanation for the Pathfinder's ability to do this I'm just proposing one possibility which could explain it in a way that I believe is consistent with the lore. You say that cloak, fortification etc. are not related to the implants but I disagree. For one thing, all the classes have implants and they are not just in the brain. If you look at the class selection screens in ME3 (I've attached some here) you'll see that every class has a whole network of embedded tech to enable their abilities. We know these abilities are not tied to the specific omni-tool because you can swap omni-tools between characters in ME1 and it doesn't change their powers. We know that the abiltiies are not tied to your armour for the same reason but, also, because there are two places in ME3 at least where you have no armour but can still access all your abilities: in the prologue and in the final scene when you try to enter the beam (you can enable powers using Kinect voice-commands). So these abilities must be tied to embedded tech. That tech either does the work itself or manipulates an external device like an omni-tool to do it but it's not a power inherent in the omni-tool itself. Without that specific implanted tech, there's no link between your neural impulses and the ability you want to perform. A particular neural impulse might trigger an implant but how that implant is configured determines what then happens and that goes for Tech, Combat and Biotic abilities equally, in my opinion.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2016 21:20:14 GMT
Still sounds like a bit of a long shot for me considering this sounds really advanced for the technology that exisists in the ME universe. Simpler solutions are probably more logical at this point in time. Actually there is an example of 'sleep training' in Mass Effect. Grunt was taught everything he knew while in his tank. He emerged as a fully educated, fully capable soldier without ever having been in actual combat. Oh crap?! Can't believe I forgot about that.
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 30, 2016 21:21:31 GMT
Actually there is an example of 'sleep training' in Mass Effect. Grunt was taught everything he knew while in his tank. He emerged as a fully educated, fully capable soldier without ever having been in actual combat. Oh crap?! Can't believe I forgot about that. Not that I disagree, but wasn't that made possible thanks to collector technology?
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