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Post by cespar on Dec 31, 2016 20:03:53 GMT
You can give the protagonist a choice of personalities. DAI's problem was that they didn't give the player enough control over the personality, because too much dialogue was buried in essentially choiceless investigate trees where the Inquisitor was extremely dull. And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, Exactly. This is what I meant when I said Bioware will never be able to win. They took that feedback and came up with the inquisitor. After the inquisitor, people wanted Hawke back because he had more personality. Even in the Trespassor DLC, it seemed like the inquisitor had gained a lot more personality. Now we're here with the Rydertwins that will probably be more like Hawke as a protagonist. SisRyder gave me that vibe in the last gameplay video.
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Post by Wulfram on Dec 31, 2016 20:11:10 GMT
You can give the protagonist a choice of personalities. DAI's problem was that they didn't give the player enough control over the personality, because too much dialogue was buried in essentially choiceless investigate trees where the Inquisitor was extremely dull. And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, Because it was still the game picking the personality, not the player. It was better because the choice was at least made based on choices made by the player, but taking the choice from the player still caused problems if the player's desired personality for Hawke didn't fit neatly into the three main categories. If sometimes you wanted the character to act atypically, then you could be out of luck.
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Post by PhatePhoenix on Dec 31, 2016 20:14:06 GMT
And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, Exactly. This is what I meant when I said Bioware will never be able to win. They took that feedback and came up with the inquisitor. After the inquisitor, people wanted Hawke back because he had more personality. Even in the Trespassor DLC, it seemed like the inquisitor had gained a lot more personality. Now we're here with the Rydertwins that will probably be more like Hawke as a protagonist. SisRyder gave me that vibe in the last gameplay video. I think the main problem is there are two separate factions at play. One goes quiet cuz they get close to what they want, which means the other starts yowling. Then that one gets what they want, so it shuts up while the other starts screaming. You're right that Bioware can't win. To be fair, there are probably some people, like myself, who weren't super pleased with Hawke in DA2. However, after ME3 and DAI and just time, it's my Hawkes that I keep thinking about, that I actually adore and felt connected to. So I'm interested in how it turns out.
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 31, 2016 20:34:50 GMT
You can give the protagonist a choice of personalities. DAI's problem was that they didn't give the player enough control over the personality, because too much dialogue was buried in essentially choiceless investigate trees where the Inquisitor was extremely dull. And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, I liked it how sometimes Hawke acted based on how i formed him/her, sure it was auto dialog but it was way better then what i saw in ME3 and when my femShep tried to climb on people without my say so. I think the Inquisitor isn't boring, but rather the choices he/she is given are the ones with no way to express his/her feelings or motivation behind them, just choices so it just goes to head canon, however Hawke played the role i chose and meant for him/her.
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 31, 2016 20:40:05 GMT
And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, Exactly. This is what I meant when I said Bioware will never be able to win. They took that feedback and came up with the inquisitor. After the inquisitor, people wanted Hawke back because he had more personality. Even in the Trespassor DLC, it seemed like the inquisitor had gained a lot more personality. Now we're here with the Rydertwins that will probably be more like Hawke as a protagonist. SisRyder gave me that vibe in the last gameplay video. And i don't have any problem with that, as long as i choose the personality for my Pathfinder. If she was acting that way because sarcastic or condescending options were chosen before then it is great, otherwise, ehh autodialogs, again. But at least she doesn't sound boring
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2016 21:12:47 GMT
Exactly. This is what I meant when I said Bioware will never be able to win. They took that feedback and came up with the inquisitor. After the inquisitor, people wanted Hawke back because he had more personality. Even in the Trespassor DLC, it seemed like the inquisitor had gained a lot more personality. Now we're here with the Rydertwins that will probably be more like Hawke as a protagonist. SisRyder gave me that vibe in the last gameplay video. I think the main problem is there are two separate factions at play. One goes quiet cuz they get close to what they want, which means the other starts yowling. Then that one gets what they want, so it shuts up while the other starts screaming. You're right that Bioware can't win. Pretty much. I loved how they did the Inquisitor, in my opinion their best protagonist so far, so I had no reason to complain. But now that the Ryder twins sound like they are going to be like Shepard and Hawke, who are among my least favorite protagonists so far, I am going to express my dissatisfaction.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2016 22:43:28 GMT
I loved my Shepard, I loved my Hawke, and I loved my Inquisitor. Each of them gave me enough to roleplay and forge my own take with their character within the parameters BioWare assigned me. From a development standpoint I think Hawke is by far and away the best character they have ever written and the best RPG character in a BioWare game. They are the only character which really had their own personal story and character arc and had to work for their accolades between...well pretty much every RPG character ever.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 1, 2017 8:17:03 GMT
Bioware will never be able to win. First, people complained about the Inquisitors being too dull without a personality. Now that Bioware are giving two distinct personality to two different protagonist, people are still complaining. BroRyder and SisRyder will most likely have the same dialogue tones to choose from, but the way they say it will be different. I don't know why people expect to control every aspect of the protagonist. Even RPGs has to have it limitations. Yes, Bioware will never win in the sense that you can't please everyone. But that's sort of a non-statement, isn't it? I'm just offering my thoughts. Since they aren't going to listen to me specifically, it's basically just some well-structured venting. However, you're misunderstanding the topic of my post. Other than mentioning that I want them to eliminate autodialogue as much as possible, I didn't talk about how much of a personality the protagonist should have, I talked about male and female protagonists having different ones. How much of a blank-slate a protagonist should be is an entirely different discussion. Although this does remind me of something I forgot to add to my previous post: Trevelyan, Adaar, Cadash, and Levellan are different characters, technically, and fill the same role as protagonist and Inquisitor, yet they retain the same roleplaying options barring background-specific options occasionally (same goes for the DA:O different races). And that's an important distinction, that those options come not from being a different race (that I can remember), but from their background; where and how that character grew up/spent their life before you took control of them. None of it indicated personality. It would be more like a Spacer having options to talk about spending most of life on ships when other Shepards could not, since they didn't. And you could choose backgrounds, as well. I never saw anyone complain that all Inquisitors shared 99% of the same roleplaying options, or even people discuss the fact that they're different characters. Yet for some reason, that's what's happening with Scott and Sara. Just a bit strange. I'm totally fine with them all having the same options. I want the same thing for the Ryders, and now, having remembered this, can say that my preference actually has quite a bit of precedence. And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, And? While it was a step-up from standard autodialogue, it's still arguably a step down from more neutral autodialogue and a few steps down from trying to have no autodialogue (which is obviously possible, look at DA:O or other games with a voiceless protagonist). So I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that system's flaws. At least it took your choices into account in some way, though, even it wasn't perfect. Doesn't seem like that's what they have planned for ME:A autodialogue.
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Jan 1, 2017 11:36:27 GMT
Proud to say I had one of my questions asked in that interview, good stuff Matt: Kiwis up in the BioWare atmosphere
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 1, 2017 13:22:18 GMT
Bioware will never be able to win. First, people complained about the Inquisitors being too dull without a personality. Now that Bioware are giving two distinct personality to two different protagonist, people are still complaining. BroRyder and SisRyder will most likely have the same dialogue tones to choose from, but the way they say it will be different. I don't know why people expect to control every aspect of the protagonist. Even RPGs has to have it limitations. Yes, Bioware will never win in the sense that you can't please everyone. But that's sort of a non-statement, isn't it? I'm just offering my thoughts. Since they aren't going to listen to me specifically, it's basically just some well-structured venting. However, you're misunderstanding the topic of my post. Other than mentioning that I want them to eliminate autodialogue as much as possible, I didn't talk about how much of a personality the protagonist should have, I talked about male and female protagonists having different ones. How much of a blank-slate a protagonist should be is an entirely different discussion. Although this does remind me of something I forgot to add to my previous post: Trevelyan, Adaar, Cadash, and Levellan are different characters, technically, and fill the same role as protagonist and Inquisitor, yet they retain the same roleplaying options barring background-specific options occasionally (same goes for the DA:O different races). And that's an important distinction, that those options come not from being a different race (that I can remember), but from their background; where and how that character grew up/spent their life before you took control of them. None of it indicated personality. It would be more like a Spacer having options to talk about spending most of life on ships when other Shepards could not, since they didn't. And you could choose backgrounds, as well. I never saw anyone complain that all Inquisitors shared 99% of the same roleplaying options, or even people discuss the fact that they're different characters. Yet for some reason, that's what's happening with Scott and Sara. Just a bit strange. I'm totally fine with them all having the same options. I want the same thing for the Ryders, and now, having remembered this, can say that my preference actually has quite a bit of precedence. And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, And? While it was a step-up from standard autodialogue, it's still arguably a step down from more neutral autodialogue and a few steps down from trying to have no autodialogue (which is obviously possible, look at DA:O or other games with a voiceless protagonist). So I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that system's flaws. At least it took your choices into account in some way, though, even it wasn't perfect. Doesn't seem like that's what they have planned for ME:A autodialogue. Very true because I don't think Bioware would ever win because the only way I could see of doing what your asking would really be go with a silent protagonist but then those that prefer a voiced one would start shouting that they want a voiced one back. Personally in situations like this I think Boiware should just make up their own minds up about what to do and what fits their game best. Besides they know more than we do what they want to achieve with their games. I don't see them getting rid of the voiced one and going back to silent personally Maybe it'll work out better than you thought but only time will tell. It's possible they thought lets give one protag to each group depending on which group you prefer one personality that's like the Inquisitor the other that's more like Hawke kind of thing. We'll see though because Sara did sound a bit like a sarcastic Hawke when doing that "a hot head great" to me. Presonally I don't mind either as I enjoyed both Hawke and the Inquisitor.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 1, 2017 15:13:36 GMT
I think the main problem is there are two separate factions at play. One goes quiet cuz they get close to what they want, which means the other starts yowling. Then that one gets what they want, so it shuts up while the other starts screaming. You're right that Bioware can't win. Pretty much. I loved how they did the Inquisitor, in my opinion their best protagonist so far, so I had no reason to complain. But now that the Ryder twins sound like they are going to be like Shepard and Hawke, who are among my least favorite protagonists so far, I am going to express my dissatisfaction. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
The Inquisitor was meh, imo. He started out like a douche.. clueless. And, later on, as the most powerful individual in the game, was still relegated to submarine pings for Elf Roots. Bah... He had no personality from the start of the game to the end.
The Ryders with the "built-in" starting personalities will assure me that they, at least, will not be boring characters. They start out trained.... the Quizzy was plucked from a mob of uneducated, untrained and boring conversationalists.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 1, 2017 15:35:33 GMT
° 。 ° ˛˚˛ * _Π_____*。*˚˚ ˛ •˛•˚ */______/~\。˚ ˚ ˛˚ ˛ •˛• ˚ | 田田 |門| ˚ Happy new year everyone!
This thread generated some interesting discussions. Hopefully, everyone remembers that we are discussing the Mass Effect Andromeda game and not the Mass Effect Lore game. The Bio studio will, imo, retcon Lore if that it what it takes to tell the story they always wanted to tell.
And in a narrative-heavy game which (supposedly) exists in a single universe with rules, continuity, etc, lore consistency is very important. If we're going to retcon the lore because the setting you created is suddenly inconvenient for the story then why are we even calling this a "Mass Effect" game?. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Hm... I'd agree with you until I read what a Mass Effect Game means to the Mike's and Mac's from Bio.
From the original Mass Effect Andromeda announcement (their blog?). "...We knew we wanted to start with a foundation composed of the best parts of any Mass Effect game: exciting new worlds to discover, great characters, and intense action. At the same time, we clearly wanted to expand the definition of what you should expect from a Mass Effect game.
While we aren’t ready to go into too many details just yet, as you saw in the trailer and can tell by the name, this game is very much a new adventure, taking place far away from and long after the events of the original trilogy. You will play a human, male or female, though that’s actually not the character you saw in the trailer (more on that later). You’ll be exploring an all-new galaxy, Andromeda, and piloting the new and improved Mako you saw. And through it all, you will have a new team of adventurers to work with, learn from, fight alongside of, and fall in love with...."
My take is that the Old Lore + expanded definition = modified lore = ME:A.
Edit: According to the above, LORE is not the best parts of a ME game. Actually, it becomes a restriction, if you want to write a story in an "expanded" ME universe. In other words, Bio had no desire to write a ME 4 = same lore. They wrote, instead ME:A which requires some lore flexibility.
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 1, 2017 15:54:55 GMT
For me the main issue with Shepard wasn't the autodialogue, it was the lack of consistency of character and amount of autodialogue between games.
ME1 mostly player defined Shepard? I enjoyed it. ME2's slightly less player defined Shepard? I enjoyed it throughout the game. ME3's even more pre-defined Shepard? It annoyed me at a few points, like the opening and ending, but most of the game it worked for me.
What didn't work was how it changed from game to game. Going from a more player-defined Shepard to that opening segment in ME3 was jarring. Like I'd had the control before and it was suddenly taken away from me. And it was clear when new writers had come in, because Shepard would say things that completely contradicted their given motivations in previous games. You had no chance to justify why your Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure in ME2, despite being given ample moral reasons to do so at the time. Suddenly you are a genocidal maniac, no matter why you chose to do it.
I wouldn't mind a ME2 or even ME3 style Ryder (Though would prefer something closer to ME1), as long as they remain consistent in future games, should they return as the protagonist. That is what I'm primarily concerned about.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 1, 2017 16:12:39 GMT
For me the main issue with Shepard wasn't the autodialogue, it was the consistency of character and amount of autodialogue between games. ME1 mostly user defined Shepard? I enjoyed it. ME2's slightly less defined Shepard? I enjoyed it throughout the game. ME3's more pre-defined Shepard? It annoyed me in a few points, like the opening and ending, but most of the game it worked for me. What didn't work was how it changed from game to game. Going from a more player-defined Shepard to that opening segment in ME3 was jarring. Like I'd had the control and it was suddenly taken away from me. And it was clear when new writers had come in, because Shepard would say things that completely contradicted their given motivations in previous games. You had no chance to justify why your Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure in ME2, despite being given ample moral reasons to do so at the time. Suddenly you are a genocidal maniac, no matter why you chose to do it. I wouldn't mind a ME2 or even ME3 style Ryder (Though would prefer something closer to ME1), as long as they remain consistent in future games, should they return as the protagonist. That is what I'm primarily concerned about. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
"... as long as they remain consistent..."
Personality wise, consistency may be a problem. From many books I read, the main character often changes as the story unfolds... for valid reasons. Therefore, I would expect game Ryder 2 to start out with the character's value to be the ones at the end of game Ryder 1, which is not the character's starting persona.
On the other hand, a new writer developing the Ryders for game X won't be able to show the sane nuances as the original creator. This, imo, can't be helped. However, I also expect the "new" Ryder to be close to the original.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 1, 2017 16:59:48 GMT
And in a narrative-heavy game which (supposedly) exists in a single universe with rules, continuity, etc, lore consistency is very important. If we're going to retcon the lore because the setting you created is suddenly inconvenient for the story then why are we even calling this a "Mass Effect" game?. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Hm... I'd agree with you until I read what a Mass Effect Game means to the Mike's and Mac's from Bio.
From the original Mass Effect Andromeda announcement (their blog?). "...We knew we wanted to start with a foundation composed of the best parts of any Mass Effect game: exciting new worlds to discover, great characters, and intense action. At the same time, we clearly wanted to expand the definition of what you should expect from a Mass Effect game.
While we aren’t ready to go into too many details just yet, as you saw in the trailer and can tell by the name, this game is very much a new adventure, taking place far away from and long after the events of the original trilogy. You will play a human, male or female, though that’s actually not the character you saw in the trailer (more on that later). You’ll be exploring an all-new galaxy, Andromeda, and piloting the new and improved Mako you saw. And through it all, you will have a new team of adventurers to work with, learn from, fight alongside of, and fall in love with...."
My take is that the Old Lore + expanded definition = modified lore = ME:A.
Edit: According to the above, LORE is not the best parts of a ME game. Actually, it becomes a restriction, if you want to write a story in an "expanded" ME universe. In other words, Bio had no desire to write a ME 4 = same lore. They wrote, instead ME:A which requires some lore flexibility.
Well, given in the Mass Effect trilogy, you could bring back the dead with "resources" and fundamentally alter the nature of galactic life with the wave of a literal magic wand, I am rather perplexed at how much more they can "expand the definition of what you should expect from a Mass Effect game" If you as me, the lore is already too "flexible". If they want to expand something, it should be what is already established rather than make up something completely new. If they are so hell-bent on that, make a new IP.
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Post by jtav on Jan 1, 2017 18:34:08 GMT
For me the main issue with Shepard wasn't the autodialogue, it was the lack of consistency of character and amount of autodialogue between games. ME1 mostly player defined Shepard? I enjoyed it. ME2's slightly less player defined Shepard? I enjoyed it throughout the game. ME3's even more pre-defined Shepard? It annoyed me at a few points, like the opening and ending, but most of the game it worked for me. What didn't work was how it changed from game to game. Going from a more player-defined Shepard to that opening segment in ME3 was jarring. Like I'd had the control before and it was suddenly taken away from me. And it was clear when new writers had come in, because Shepard would say things that completely contradicted their given motivations in previous games. You had no chance to justify why your Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure in ME2, despite being given ample moral reasons to do so at the time. Suddenly you are a genocidal maniac, no matter why you chose to do it. I wouldn't mind a ME2 or even ME3 style Ryder (Though would prefer something closer to ME1), as long as they remain consistent in future games, should they return as the protagonist. That is what I'm primarily concerned about. Yeah, more defined is fine. I had a blast playing Adam Jensen. But the more defined a protagonist is, the better written they have to be. And they absolutely do need to stay consistent with the amount of control they give. "Who are you and what have you done with my PC?" is never fun. And if they are going to mandate an emotional response from the PC, they should work very hard to make the player feel the same, not just, "A child died. Feel sad."
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 2, 2017 14:40:52 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Well, January is here.
Mike said Bio will give us more information on:
1- Squad control 2- More info on the dialogue system 3- Possibly more info on Inventory management 4- Maybe something about the music tracks.
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Post by Xanphal on Jan 3, 2017 3:32:09 GMT
Just finished reading through the thread and what occurs to me about the class system is this: Hands up those who've played Final Fantasy X-2! Sounds like dress spheres to me! You pick which 'load-outs' you want to take with you and you can freely switch between these chosen load-out's as the mission progresses to get the abilities you need. No 'reprogramming' or 'forgetting' abilities; just all your abilities at once in one easy load-out stance-dance. But without the magical girl transformations.
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havox
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Post by havox on Jan 3, 2017 9:24:47 GMT
But without the magical girl transformations. Unsubscribed, preorder cancelled, hatemail to Bioware twitter, facebook and PO box sent
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Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 3, 2017 14:23:11 GMT
But without the magical girl transformations. Unsubscribed, preorder cancelled, hatemail to Bioware twitter, facebook and PO box sent Now that's an overreaction if ever I saw one.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 3, 2017 14:35:00 GMT
Unsubscribed, preorder cancelled, hatemail to Bioware twitter, facebook and PO box sent Now that's an overreaction if ever I saw one. Pff, Noob. He didn't even decided to visit in person. (This is a joke, I don't think that you should threaten a company that make a game that you disagree with. Just thought that I should say that in case someone believed I was serious)
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Post by Thrombin on Jan 3, 2017 14:35:06 GMT
Unsubscribed, preorder cancelled, hatemail to Bioware twitter, facebook and PO box sent Now that's an overreaction if ever I saw one. I don't know. The lack of magical girl transformations seems like a serious oversight
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Jan 3, 2017 16:53:22 GMT
And in DA2 where they tried to give Hawke a personality based on dialogue trends, people b*tched and moaned at that too, Exactly. This is what I meant when I said Bioware will never be able to win. They took that feedback and came up with the inquisitor. After the inquisitor, people wanted Hawke back because he had more personality. Even in the Trespassor DLC, it seemed like the inquisitor had gained a lot more personality. Now we're here with the Rydertwins that will probably be more like Hawke as a protagonist. SisRyder gave me that vibe in the last gameplay video. You're probably right that they'll never be able to win. The best they can do is not outright antagonise either side. As others have said not completely shifting a largely player moulded character(me1-2) into a largely pre-defined one(me3) is a pretty important point. Personally i couldn't stand the inquisitor before Trespasser or after but that's not really to do with the design of dialogue choice but much more to do with character passivity. I may not necessarily complain if the Rydertwins are closer to Hawke as there was largely choice and at least where dialogue choice wasn't present it was defined by your dominant choice(If autodialogue isn't going to be neutral at least this offered an element of shaping unlike outright characterising auto-dialogue such as ME3.)
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 3, 2017 17:46:16 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Frankly, I believe a game with a pre-defined character + "the unprecedented freedom of choices + huge dialogue / character = is more exciting to play than a pale looking dim whit like our Quizzy. Sarah Ryder is not only combat trained, but the last trailer showed she has a backbone and is self confident. Unlike our Quizzy where the reaction (at the start of the game was "what do I do now?, where do I go?".
This is where our Ryder's personality will interplay with out squad quite nicely, positively, neutral or somewhat abrasively with the other's own personas. And, if you remember, the Ryder's can "overcome" a squadmate's behaviour/strong views via dialogue choices. This tells me the writers have managed to include "alternate" dialogue responses to persistent Ryder conversational choices or behaviour toward them or others (aliens included, I guess).
What I also hope is that as the game progresses, our Ryder's dialogue and behaviour options are reflected/changed by the player choices made in the past. This, at least, gives us the control we want over our protag.
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Post by jtav on Jan 3, 2017 17:55:45 GMT
I'm okay with either model of protagonist as long as it's consistent and I like the defined protag. The Inquisitor's problem wasn't so much them as the fairly bland story they were in and ME3 Shepard's biggest problem was that they did a lousy job getting players to feel what Shepard did.
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