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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2017 7:15:32 GMT
Yeah, space opera is about adventures in space but much urban fantasy is really light, light hearted, not really serious, with a wise cracking protagonist even when dealing with dark subject matter. Cheerful. That's just my impression of a lot of UF and Andromeda. Also the awkward romance scenes remind me of the romance scenes in a lot of urban fantasy (which much of the time can blend into the paranormal romance genre. Like "Unwed and Undead" sometimes called paranormal romance sometimes urban fantasy.) Cheerful despite any circumstance is a very good description of MEA. I feel that this often undermined the seriousness of situations. I know I am weird in this because people dislike it, but I just like bathos. I love people mocking serious situations. Granted Jack O'Neill in SG-1 was a bit much.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2017 7:20:26 GMT
Cheerful despite any circumstance is a very good description of MEA. I feel that this often undermined the seriousness of situations. I know I am weird in this because people dislike it, but I just like bathos. I love people mocking serious situations. Granted Jack O'Neill in SG-1 was a bit much. Ah, good ole' Jack. I think it's different when it's a protagonist in a program or movie. In an RPG, I like to have more input with the protagonist's tone. I also get more immersed, since "I'm there in the story", experiencing those events. Jack will be Jack; but Scott or Sara should generally be whomever I direct them to be. I'm a smartass, but not a comical joker in dire situations. It made it hard for me to maintain immersion at times.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 11, 2017 8:06:21 GMT
But saying that scenes are cringeworthy doesn't say anything important. Is anybody even denying that?The Suvi scene is manifestly cringeworthy by design, and I'll bet that's true of most if not all of the others (For me it's all, but mileages are going to vary on that.) I'm not sure whether anyone is denying it, to be honest. I dropped into the thread, saw a post I seemed to disagree with and offered an alternative view. It seemed that vonuber was suggesting that this single scene is the crux of an argument. Having looked at the last couple of pages, I saw no such thing. Also, I didn't say that this single scene is cringeworthy. I said that many scenes are. That's why this one scene need not be a focus. If I'm off-topic, oops, I guess. Well, my point was that discussing cringeworthiness at all, whether in a single scene or in many, isn't useful until we have a working theory for when and why cringeworthiness is a bad thing. And I see that we've gotten a bit into this. I'm starting to think that this isn't so much a cringe problem as it is an autodialogue problem. You can't choose between goofy and non-goofy tones. I can understand why, though. ROI aside, there'd be some role confusion if Ryder was only awkward when we made her be awkward. Whoever is making that choice, it isn't the PC herself.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 11, 2017 8:06:38 GMT
I mean seriously, name one character flaw Shepard has/had? Excessive bombast?
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Post by vonuber on Dec 11, 2017 8:33:29 GMT
Episode 2. It's the full romance version with the extended kiss. And a very real romance it feels too, as did Max and Chloe's in the first one. Hence my point above. What puzzles me is why people get fixated on one scene out of thousands. It's like me judging the whole of ME2 on how femshep talks to Jacob. I dunno. I asked her to give me her bracelet, because that just feels... I dunno, more personal I guess? I dunno, it just feels like sex is just an obstacle that we have to get around, and we have varying points of view on this depending on whether we are female or male. For example, males always wanna see two chicks make out. Females, I dunno. Maybe a female can take over from here. Geek Remix - who are lesbians - in their let's play they couldn't hammer the kiss button quickly enough. I guess it just depends on the people. For me it is canon that they have a relationship, so made sense.
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Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 11, 2017 9:52:43 GMT
Unless you've been there. I'd think that would make it worse. Everyone has, at some point, embarrassed themself. I'd not wish my moment on another, nor wish to see it reproduced in a video game. I definitely don't want the protagonist being undermined by too many facepalms. To each their own. Like I said, it's not just that one scene. There are lots of silly moments. They don't sit well with some of us. I like the game, and will likely start a new PT this week. I still cringe over far too much of its writing and VA. I would much rather my character be a person than a "robot". A person would be embarrassing once in a while whereas "robot" wouldn't be embarassed by anything.
As for silly moments. That's staple for Mass Effect so why not in Andromeda I say?
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2017 15:30:24 GMT
I mean seriously, name one character flaw Shepard has/had? Inability to articulate motives at critical moments (Horizon) Overly trusting of people he.she really shouldn't (TIM, the Catalyst)
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2017 15:37:18 GMT
Cheerful despite any circumstance is a very good description of MEA. I feel that this often undermined the seriousness of situations. I know I am weird in this because people dislike it, but I just like bathos. I love people mocking serious situations. Granted Jack O'Neill in SG-1 was a bit much. It really depends on the story and the character. Sometimes a witty comment can help break the tension of a situation (like Private Hudson in Aliens) Sometimes the story itself isn't really meant to be taken seriously, so humorous quips are to be expected. But when a story is supposed to be taken seriously, such comments take me out of the story.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2017 15:39:40 GMT
I don't now about that. the MET was just as much of a grand adventure then Andromeda was. Andromeda just told more jokes. Granted I am unsure what you mean by serious science fiction but a universe which has things like synthesis in it is not something I consider serious science fiction. (Though I suppose it could be argued it was pretty serious until that moment). I'd argue Mass Effect was always a science fantasy over science fiction, but it really stopped being a serious science fiction with ME2 when they threw out things like the laws of physics for the Rule of Cool/Sexy. In ME1, they at least made an effort to have their space magic operate within certain "rules" even if they aren't the rules by which our own universe works. That seems to be largely thanks to the efforts of Chris L'Etoile, who left Bioware during or after ME2.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2017 17:41:03 GMT
I'd think that would make it worse. Everyone has, at some point, embarrassed themself. I'd not wish my moment on another, nor wish to see it reproduced in a video game. I definitely don't want the protagonist being undermined by too many facepalms. To each their own. Like I said, it's not just that one scene. There are lots of silly moments. They don't sit well with some of us. I like the game, and will likely start a new PT this week. I still cringe over far too much of its writing and VA. I would much rather my character be a person than a "robot". A person would be embarrassing once in a while whereas "robot" wouldn't be embarassed by anything.
As for silly moments. That's staple for Mass Effect so why not in Andromeda I say?
I’m a person, though, and I’d never say or do much of the goofy crap Sara says and does. Not being a goon doesn’t equate to being a robot. We’re supposedly fighting for the survival of a half-dozen sentient species. Why must nearly everything be a joke? The game just had way too many teenie novel and bad sitcom laugh track moments for me. It’s not bad enough to ruin the game, as long as I’m playing as Scott. It’s still undesirable and annoying when it rears its ridiculous head.
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Post by Superhik on Dec 11, 2017 17:50:33 GMT
I would much rather my character be a person than a "robot". A person would be embarrassing once in a while whereas "robot" wouldn't be embarassed by anything. Well it comes down to presentation, maybe even more than the actual writing. GTA despite how over the top the whole satire actually is, still makes all those silly, eccentric characters seem believable.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2017 17:52:51 GMT
Mark Meer's lines were also bad. For pretty much every romance, the flirts by both John and Jane were very uncomfortable. As for the Sara/Suvi flirts, I found them to be rather adorable. “Who said anything about love? I’m juat trying to get you in bed.” You thought, “I’m just trying to get in your pants” was on par with Sara+Suvi? Miranda scoffed at Shep’s deliberately silly comment. That’s the difference. Shep was trying to be goofy, and doing so in private. Sara was acting a fool on the bridge. Totally different situation. I’ve said similar things to what Shep said a couple of times, in private, and it’s never garnered a negative reaction nor kept me from reaching my goal. Maybe you should try it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2017 17:59:15 GMT
“Who said anything about love? I’m juat trying to get you in bed.” You thought, “I’m just trying to get in your pants” was on par with Sara+Suvi? Miranda scoffed at Shep’s deliberately silly comment. That’s the difference. Shep was trying to be goofy, and doing so in private. Sara was acting a fool on the bridge. Totally different situation. I’ve said similar things to what Shep said a couple of times, in private, and it’s never garnered a negative reaction nor kept me from reaching my goal. Maybe you should try it. I think Shepard's line was worse, since you are asking if something is on par or not. Plus his follow up line he says in what can only be full seriousness "Come on, Miranda. You want this." was really kind of creepy, to the point the face he made during that line became a meme.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2017 18:15:46 GMT
You thought, “I’m just trying to get in your pants” was on par with Sara+Suvi? Miranda scoffed at Shep’s deliberately silly comment. That’s the difference. Shep was trying to be goofy, and doing so in private. Sara was acting a fool on the bridge. Totally different situation. I’ve said similar things to what Shep said a couple of times, in private, and it’s never garnered a negative reaction nor kept me from reaching my goal. Maybe you should try it. I think Shepard's line was worse, since you are asking if something is on par or not. Plus his follow up line he says in what can only be full seriousness "Come on, Miranda. You want this." was really kind of creepy, to the point the face he made during that line became a meme. The face is a separate issue. The animations were pretty bad in the OT. The lines just sound like two adults having a private conversation to me. He wasn’t trying to force her to have sex. She did want the relationship, as he said and as she made clear. I found the entire Tali romance super creepy, in a “call Chris Hanson” sort of way. Miranda and Shep, though, seemed pretty lifelike (aside from typical VG pacing).
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Post by themikefest on Dec 11, 2017 18:45:32 GMT
I mean seriously, name one character flaw Shepard has/had? Not asking questions
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N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 11, 2017 20:55:28 GMT
I would much rather my character be a person than a "robot". A person would be embarrassing once in a while whereas "robot" wouldn't be embarassed by anything.
As for silly moments. That's staple for Mass Effect so why not in Andromeda I say?
I’m a person, though, and I’d never say or do much of the goofy crap Sara says and does. Not being a goon doesn’t equate to being a robot. We’re supposedly fighting for the survival of a half-dozen sentient species. Why must nearly everything be a joke? The game just had way too many teenie novel and bad sitcom laugh track moments for me. It’s not bad enough to ruin the game, as long as I’m playing as Scott. It’s still undesirable and annoying when it rears its ridiculous head. I don't see how they possibly can accomodate every personal inclination in the world in their dialogue though. Even so when the game was released and there was overly moaning about how it was impossible to play a serious Ryder I promptly started a new and serious f!Ryder. She was about as Goofy as Shep. And Shep as you'll recall was fighting for the survival of a whole galaxy. Still it seems that Sheps goofing is ok for the most part.
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Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 11, 2017 20:57:53 GMT
I would much rather my character be a person than a "robot". A person would be embarrassing once in a while whereas "robot" wouldn't be embarassed by anything. Well it comes down to presentation, maybe even more than the actual writing. GTA despite how over the top the whole satire actually is, still makes all those silly, eccentric characters seem believable. I don't see how anyone in that game is more believable than the characters in Mass effect Andromeda.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Dec 11, 2017 21:40:21 GMT
I believe GTA V and MEA were equally as bad in terms of making believable characters, GTA V's only defense in that regard is that it is purposefully a hyper parody, where as MEA is a serious premise, with cartoonish levels of character behavior.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 12, 2017 3:48:51 GMT
I’m a person, though, and I’d never say or do much of the goofy crap Sara says and does. Not being a goon doesn’t equate to being a robot. We’re supposedly fighting for the survival of a half-dozen sentient species. Why must nearly everything be a joke? The game just had way too many teenie novel and bad sitcom laugh track moments for me. It’s not bad enough to ruin the game, as long as I’m playing as Scott. It’s still undesirable and annoying when it rears its ridiculous head. I don't see how they possibly can accomodate every personal inclination in the world in their dialogue though. Even so when the game was released and there was overly moaning about how it was impossible to play a serious Ryder I promptly started a new and serious f!Ryder. She was about as Goofy as Shep. And Shep as you'll recall was fighting for the survival of a whole galaxy. Still it seems that Sheps goofing is ok for the most part. I don't feel that I'm able to play a professional Sara. She's too damn goofy for me to take her seriously. Scott's a bit better, due to Tom's VA and the writing. This stuff is subjective, of course. I'm not trying to sell you on my take.
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 12, 2017 4:04:07 GMT
Skepticism over MEA still has fuel? Wow.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 12, 2017 4:06:45 GMT
Skepticism over MEA still has fuel? Wow. I believe a bit of necromancy was involved.
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 12, 2017 4:41:09 GMT
Skepticism over MEA still has fuel? Wow. I believe a bit of necromancy was involved. Can't win them all it seems.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 12, 2017 8:02:22 GMT
I believe GTA V and MEA were equally as bad in terms of making believable characters, GTA V's only defense in that regard is that it is purposefully a hyper parody, where as MEA is a serious premise, with cartoonish levels of character behavior. I think both were good at crafting believable characters.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Dec 12, 2017 10:51:30 GMT
I believe GTA V and MEA were equally as bad in terms of making believable characters, GTA V's only defense in that regard is that it is purposefully a hyper parody, where as MEA is a serious premise, with cartoonish levels of character behavior. I think both were good at crafting believable characters. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing believable about GTA characters, Trevor more so than most. Unless you actually want to tell me that forcing your way into a couples house, taking advantage of the poor husband who lives there, utterly destroying their house and covering it with fecal matter. Then when the wife finally comes home and is rightfully offended and demands the random stranger leave at once, said character has the gall to be offended that "this stupid bitch" is telling him to leave then promptly kills them. If you think that to be believable behavior, I don't know what to say, other than maybe you need a shrink. Thats just 1 example of how unbelievable that game is. However I'm not going to argue this further, because I already know how this forum works. No one ever changes their mind, so it's pointless.
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Post by Superhik on Dec 12, 2017 12:45:51 GMT
I think both were good at crafting believable characters. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing believable about GTA characters, Trevor more so than most. Unless you actually want to tell me that forcing your way into a couples house, taking advantage of the poor husband who lives there, utterly destroying their house and covering it with fecal matter. Then when the wife finally comes home and is rightfully offended and demands the random stranger leave at once, said character has the gall to be offended that "this stupid bitch" is telling him to leave then promptly kills them. If you think that to be believable behavior, I don't know what to say, other than maybe you need a shrink. Thats just 1 example of how unbelievable that game is. However I'm not going to argue this further, because I already know how this forum works. No one ever changes their mind, so it's pointless. whole thing is an obvious. Of course it will fall apart with logic. But presentation is top notch and that's what carries it. That scene( Sara/Suvi) is good example of the opposite. There's nothing wrong with Sara still being awkward young adult, but everyone looks so stunted that it makes the player feel embarassed. With GTA ( or even manstalking Femshepard) I was simply laughing it all off.
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