ApocAlypsE
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Jan 15, 2017 14:07:14 GMT
Its a combination of things, but mostly its the EA-fication of Bioware. The reasons include: 1. ME3 ending, and for some people the entirety of the game. 2. DA2 for its rushed state, and DA:I for its overcompensation for DA2 and over-ambitiousness which leads to a game which is wide but not deep. 3. The lead writer. 4. "SJW pandering", the inclusion of Krem in DA:I apparently triggered people. 5. Many people leaving the company. 6. The too quiet marketing, which suggests that the game has a troubled development. 7. The story which is a clear attempt of bypassing the ME3 ending debacle. And there are the people that nitpick and rage on absolutely minor stuff like Peebee's eyebrows or Sara's wonky face animations and extrapolate from there that the game will be shit. I'm looking forward to ME:A. I don't expect it to be the best game ever, but I expect it to give me many hours of fun like DA:I did despite it's flaws. 1. I think it's clear ME3 was rushed It seems Bioware has learned from their mistake 2. Same as #1 3. The one that left the company? What about him? 4. I hear this a lot two, What classifies as "SJW Pandering"? Having gay characters and gay relationships as a choice in your game is by no means SJW pandering. Honestly the Mass Efffect series has been pretty politically incorrect a lot. 5. Having turn over isn't always a bad thing 6. I think Bioware is just going the anti-hype route. Creating too much hype can be a bad thing, although I do think they should be giving more info. 7. Not really if you look into it, it started between ME2 and ME3. 1. 1+2. Hopefully. Battlefield 1 and Titanfall 2 represent two recent examples of higher quality games from EA which resulted from learning from mistakes. Hopefully Bioware follows suit. 3. I didn't remember the name. I'm talking about Mac Walters which apparently he is the responsible for the more suspect bits from ME3 excluding the ending (Kai Leng...) 4. For me, having gay characters in video games in the way Bioware did doesn't count as SJW pandering, but some people disagree with me. 5. Agree, although it can indicate things. In this case it's innocent until proved guilty. 6. Yep. 7. I was talking about the endings on the meta level, not the story one. Would you agree that if the ending would have been similar to DA:O's ending, the 4th Mass Effect would have been in the milky way? And not 600 years after ME3 but more like 5-20?
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DoomsdayDevice
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Jan 15, 2017 14:13:51 GMT
Let's see. Cutting story elements into "essential DLC", outright lying about what the game will have (every piece of marketing material may not show up in final product), "Please buy our next game. We know you don't trust us core fanbase, but give us a chance, pinky-swear!" Yes, ME3 played a significant portion of that. We don't know the whole story only that EA rushed it and we got an unfinished game. Tie the dots together now. Of course they would want to release it if they could. You talk as if Bioware always enjoyed deliberately cutting stuff out of their games, cause that's so helpful. I guess you skipped the DA2 fiasco too. I trust them. What are you even on? Oh, you know, maybe it has something to do with Bioware lying, lying and lying. Let me refresh your memory: Casey Hudson (Director):
"There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it."
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"Of course you don't have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you'll still get all the same endings and same information, it's just a totally different way of playing"
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director):
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] "Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?" Hudson: "Yeah, and I'd say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don't have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C..... The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"There are many different endings. We wouldn't do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can't say any more than that…"
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer):
"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."But you know, people are crazy to be so sceptical! What are they even on about!
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 15, 2017 14:28:28 GMT
Social Justice Warrior. Generally speaking the concept of someone who is pro LGBT (and some other nominally disenfranchised groups) who are really, really, really, annoying in thier presentation. They tend to attack those who disagree with them. Tend to scream. And even tend to do things like reverse discrimination. Someone who is more pro SJW might have a different definition then me, and I welcome to hear an alternative viewpoint actually, but most people who are labeled SJWs probably wouldn't look on the term very favorably themselves (at least in my experience few people go around calling themselves an SJW...and this post ended up a lot longer then I was intending) Be honest, the whole concept of SJW was created by those who want to label anyone who is for diversity across all media such as film, television, and videogames. It has nothing to do with people being aggressive or "screaming". No. SJW is an often misused and misinterpreted term. IMO it's referring to proponents and activists of the 'social justice' movement. The real question is what is the social justice movement. Mr. Heir is a fine example. He isn't (necessarily) a racist. He's parroting the social justice narrative. All white men are bad, all white men are to blame for all the oppression caused to people who are not white men. etc etc.
At it's core, the social justice movement is bigoted and hateful. It's not about diversity in media at all, its about blaming one race and/or gender for all the worlds problems.
The social justice movement is probably mostly made up of white people, ironically.
If you did an actual poll you'd probably find most gamers are indifferent to 'diversity' in games. Granted the LGBT issue gets more of a reaction, but SJW' are insisting all the 'straight white male' gamers are against diversity and don't want to see anyone but straight white men in their media. This is an idiotic and hyperbolic stance that an SJW will glibly repeat without shame.
The number of people against 'diversity' on sites like this is irrelevant. Idiots on the internet like flocking to gaming sites to voice their idiotic opinions. That's the nature of the internet, sadly. It is no more indicative of the entire gaming population (or straight white men) than the poll on which platform to use is of the entire gaming population. Most respondents on that poll say PC, but the PC market is apparently much smaller than the console market overall.
Spoilered analysis of the social justice movement, as that is off topic for this thread and should be taken elsewhere. I don't want to see the thread locked. Now, as for the topic. I suspect all the angst around the ME3 endings is what's driving the current skepticism of MEA. Also, the little information they have released, is putting some people off. That's ok, not everyone likes the same things.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 14:34:30 GMT
Well done, BSN, for (despite the trigger topics) just about keeping this thread away from fights to avoid sinking into Davy Jones' LOCK. To my mind, the internet naturally amplifies the voices of disgruntled, from whichever side of the argument. Even on this forum, if you test opinion with a poll, such as on the 'Might it fail? thread, >85% don't agree, even if the run of the conversation feels more even. The old BSN was famously branded 'toxic'. From a now deleted blog, David Gaider said a few years ago: "Eventually you get the feeling like you're at one of those parties where all anyone is doing is bitching. It doesn't matter what they're bitching about so much as, sooner or later, that's all you can really hear,"
Some would argue that Dragon Age Inquisition was an abject failure, but by objective standards it was most critically successful game of the year (admittedly not in a standout year). So the bar for a deeply immersed 'fan' who might worry about lore discrepancies or be upset about the purism of auto-dialogue in certain circumstances is in a very different place to an 'ordinary casual gamer' (fun space opera, pew pew...). Sure, there's skepticism, and that's not unreasonable because expectations are high, but I recall that being the case on any BioWare forum as long as I can remember. (example - article from 2011: What's with the recent BioWare hate? www.lo-ping.org/2011/09/12/whats-with-the-recent-bioware-hate/ ) Incidentally, there's a huge audience of newly mature gamers out there, who were barely into their teens when the whole ME3 endings debate kicked off... I agree completely... terrific analysis, Sofajockey.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jan 15, 2017 14:56:33 GMT
It won't bomb, but I'm afraid it won't feel like Mass Effect at all. What I've seen reminds me far more of Halo, Avatar etc, and that worries me.
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Ivory Samoan
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Jan 15, 2017 15:01:38 GMT
I get why skepticism seems safer and I think a little bit is fine. It's more when I feel like people are looking for excuses to not like the game or when there's harsh judgements about MEA when it hasn't been released yet. I also agree that to much hype can be a bit dangerous if you are expecting certain specific things it could possibly be a let down. Having a balance between hype and realism is where I personally feel is best. I find hype to be useless and damaging. Virtually every video game I was hyped about in recent years turned out to be a disappointment on some level. Edit: Aside from The Witcher 3. I was really happy with that game. My games that have met the hype train head on and won (didn't let me down) lately have been: Uncharted 4 Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Paragon XCOM 2 Doom The Witcher 3 + HoS/B&W Games like Mafia 3 (massive letdown), FFXV (2/3 amazing, 1/3 horribad) and MGSV:TPP (2/3 amazing, 1/3 horribad) have soured me a bit on big hype releases of late, where as games with next to no hype have been blowing me a away a lot more (Paragon and XCOM2 come under this category for me). I'm really hoping Horizon: Zero Dawn isn't the next one to let me down; looks amazing so far: hope the story holds up as the gameplay looks solid AF! Zelda could also come under this if I was buying a Switch....but they are $549 NZD here (lol!) so nah on that front XD I'm confident Andromeda will live up to my high but not overhyped expectations for the game, everything I've seen so far has been looking great to me: especially the faster paced gameplay and the use of colour in the explorable world.
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 15, 2017 15:20:11 GMT
It won't bomb, but I'm afraid it won't feel like Mass Effect at all. What I've seen reminds me far more of Halo, Avatar etc, and that worries me. For me it still feels like an ME game what worries me most atm is the lack of pause to aim for our powers in SP. Aside from that though I'm not too worried that I won't enjoy it. I would just like to know more about how the power systems work and how Bioware are working around the fact that there is no pause to aim assuming that they are. Especially for those of us with disabilities and can't use all the controls that well. I hope at least they've taken things like this into account in the design of the new system.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 15, 2017 15:41:00 GMT
Honestly I think the alt right anti-SJW crowd are just as bad if not worse than actual SJW's at this point. Can't we just find a happy medium? Of course not; unless you 100% agree with either side of the argument, you're an enemy. My attitude to people that have "extreme" opinions.
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Post by Arcian on Jan 15, 2017 16:15:57 GMT
Because BioWare is held to ridiculously high standards. Yes, their fans telling them they can do literally nothing wrong is a ridiculously high standard to live up to.
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Post by Italian_Pathfinder on Jan 15, 2017 16:24:09 GMT
While I can't care less about Manveer Heir, I think it is unacceptable for a person in this kind of position to speak in that way.
I work in direct contact with my customers and the first thing they teached me was to keep my personal views to myself. I worked with every kind of people (religious, LGBT, racists, SJW etc..) but as a person who must appeal to the customers, I leave my personal views at home. Now, the things he said are on his twitter but since he specify to be working for ME:A and most of his followers are following him because of Mass Effect, I think it is a shame to let him say the things he said. I always ignored him, mostly because I think he has some serious issues but I don't understand how BioWare had given their approval to some things such as the discussion with Deux Ex over the #AugsLivesMatter thing. I really felt ashamed of them in that moment and I saw it as them trying to get some attention and visibility with Deux Ex. Mass Effect Andromeda had and still has a poor marketing strategy, we know few things about the game and they're not even advertising it. For example: it doesn't even appear in the first page of the PSN, it is not even advertised in the section of preorders until you actually go there and scroll down. Games like Mafia 3 appeared everywhere even six months before the game was released. If I wasn't a fan, I wouldn't know about this game. And no I'm not judging, but I think it's sad that one of the highest moment of attention toward the new game was when "one of the Mass Effect Andromeda devs criticized Deux Ex". They should mind their own business and worry about their games instead. I don't think they're in the position to go tell the others how to do the right things. Mister Manveer Heir seems a little too bored considered that he can spend entire days twitting alot of nonsense while I almost don't even have the time to go to the bathroom while I'm at work.
One other thing is that while I've subscribed only a few days ago, I followed the forum since the old BSN because that is actually the better source of information and news that they have. They can't expect me to follow their personals account and find 1 thing useful about MEA while the rest is them talking about their personal stuff. If it wasn't for the twitter thread, I wouldn't even know half of the things they shared. So they should be grateful to have a fanbase that love them that much to create a new forum and share their love for a company that decided to shut their mouths some months ago. I really didn't like how they treated this part of their fanbase. They don't want them to talk but they expect them to pay 200€ for a collector edition. No, thank you.
As for the game itself. I don't know what to say because we haven't seen much yet. But the skepticism is understandable. It's been in production for 5 years which is alot. They're scared to show the game and the few things they shared aren't even that much impressive. I keep hoping that they're waiting for the right moment in which they will reveal more about it and we finally see all the effort that has been put into the game because I'm hoping there's more to it than we've seen so far. If not, I don't know what to think.
That said, I'm just expressing my opinion mostly because it's the only place where I can do that. The people I know irl don't care about Mass Effect.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 15, 2017 16:44:21 GMT
Because BioWare lost a lot of goodwill after certain disappointments mostly occuring since EA took over and because they built up a lofty promise for Mass Effect and then underperformed on delivering that (that it was always planned as a trilogy and that choices would matter and ME3 would have 16 wildly different endings)
However, most of all I think it's just because people loved the trilogy while it was underway (and I guess after the fact too) so all this new stuff that we haven't got attached to yet just stands in comparison to something we were really fond of and people are just not convinced yet, and what BioWare has shown so far hasn't swayed a good portion either.
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Post by urkibalurki on Jan 15, 2017 16:57:24 GMT
Well, I'm not the only one who thinks BioWare totally messed up their marketing campaign for ME:A. They only had to shut up until N7 day of 2016 and then announce ME:A and its launch date, publishing all the trailers and so on. They act like they were scared, really! But scared about what? They don't build up hype: they build up distress and anger! I think very few people will buy this radio-controlled model of the Nomad (that is sold WITHOUT the game...), but many will buy the game, and I expect it keeping up with BioWare's standards. And about that racist guy, I repeat: I don't give a damn.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 17:04:47 GMT
"Two steps forward, two steps back." That seems to be Bioware's motto over the last decade or so, they lack focus and what one game is missing, next one overcompensates and so on.
From what I've seen here, they downgraded gun play and removed companion control, pause option, while (greatly) expanded leveling, mobility and available powers. Animations, facial in particular are something they're falling behind and need a serious upgrade. Plenty of more customization options, this time around though.
I'm not particularly optimistic for great storyline...they seem to playing it safe and premise behind Initiative is as nonsensical as ending/inconsistencies behind original trilogy.
It will pretty much boil down to the world(building) and the side quests, and so far we've seen little of both.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jan 15, 2017 17:05:23 GMT
We don't know the whole story only that EA rushed it and we got an unfinished game. Tie the dots together now. Of course they would want to release it if they could. You talk as if Bioware always enjoyed deliberately cutting stuff out of their games, cause that's so helpful. I guess you skipped the DA2 fiasco too. I trust them. What are you even on? Oh, you know, maybe it has something to do with Bioware lying, lying and lying. Let me refresh your memory: Casey Hudson (Director):
"There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it."
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"Of course you don't have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you'll still get all the same endings and same information, it's just a totally different way of playing"
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director):
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] "Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?" Hudson: "Yeah, and I'd say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don't have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C..... The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"There are many different endings. We wouldn't do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can't say any more than that…"
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer):
"Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer):
"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."But you know, people are crazy to be so sceptical! What are they even on about! 1) The original endings were different, one of the leaked scripts even showed this. With an unconfirmed report that it was totally rewritten in the last minute because of the leak. 2) I got what I needed to have all three endings without the MP. It was harder, yes, but not impossible. 3) The many decisions I made throughout the trilogy got reflected in the slides. May not have been the best execution, but it's there. 4) There are cut dialogues in the game's files during the final mission on Earth that involves many squadmates that weren't with you in ME3, like Jack & Zaeed. The Rachni were probably there, I would have to search those files again to confirm, but after reading what was cut, I don't doubt it. As I said, Bioware got rushed, their budget wasn't probably enough for the development time they got and for the game they wanted to make. There's just too many reports that reinforces this notion. It's okay to be skeptical, you're putting words into my mouth. Just have a good reason to be skeptical or else you will be like that one "Business Practices" guy and all his nonsense. If you're still so MAD over the ending that doesn't even affects Andromeda... Just spoil yourself like some posters will do, if that's low-key what it takes.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 17:07:02 GMT
Well, I'm not the only one who thinks BioWare totally messed up their marketing campaign for ME:A. They only had to shut up until N7 day of 2016 and then announce ME:A and its launch date, publishing all the trailers and so on. They act like they were scared, really! But scared about what? They don't build up hype: they build up distress and anger! I think very few people will buy this radio-controlled model of the Nomad (that is sold WITHOUT the game...), but many will buy the game, and I expect it keeping up with BioWare's standards. And about that racist guy, I repeat: I don't give a damn. Isn't it a little harsh? I mean, I doubt Bioware should be scared of its product. Anxious maybe, emotioned, stressed out for the upcoming release… you know, the kind of feels you get before a big moment. Personally, I don’t think this silence is all that fearful or should be, and while I too would like more information, we should also remember of what happened with ME3. The entire plot from beginning to the end was uploaded on the net before launch. Maybe they are doing their utmost (and then some), to avoid a repetition.
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Post by duckley on Jan 15, 2017 17:12:40 GMT
I have to say that many of the so-called SJW of today that I have come across have not been all that well educated on the subjects they champion. I speak of my direct experience only, so not intended to paint everyone with the same brush! While I applaud their right to express their opinions and I am often in agreement with their core beliefs, I cringe and worry when some I have heard are providing false, biased, damaging, harmful or unsubstantiated information - stuff they have picked up from bits and bytes from the internet - whether the subject be the environment, religion, politics,or whatever. Sometimes I wonder if they teach critical thinking in schools anymore. On the other hand well educated SJW can help make positive changes and are always ready to dive into intelligent conversation and even change their opinions or concede points when won! So it goes both ways in my limited experience.
As for the skepticism with respect to ME:A and Bioware, skepticism is an OK thing from my perspective, as long as it is expressed respectfully - In fact, skepticism can be a good thing - makes us think!!. I trust that those who are expecting a bad game, will wait to to purchase pending opportunities to educate themselves on the game and decide whether or not to play. Those who are assuming the game will be good will probably buy right away. Personally I am a big fan of DA and ME and thoroughly enjoyed all the games (although some more than others for sure)
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 15, 2017 17:18:58 GMT
I read an interesting article on Forbes that speculated that Mass Effect Andromeda is being marketed carefully and trying not to build too much hype after both Mass Effect 3 and No Mans Sky were hit with insane amounts of (in my opinion, justified) criticism for building up hype with developer comments that were not true or misleading.
Personally I think they are playing it slightly too safe. There are a lot of things that I want answers to and to see more of before release, and that is only two months away now. But I can't say I blame them.
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Post by Part Time Ninja on Jan 15, 2017 17:43:51 GMT
It's easy to forget how big a story the Mass Effect 3 endings were. The outry transcended the gaming media and the whole thing became an overblown mess very quickly for everyone involved.
The extended cut did little to heal the rift as whilst the players who wanted more detail (and those who enjoyed the original endings) may have been satiated, it still left those who wanted new endings and those who'd already moved on disillusioned by the whole experience.
So it's unsurprising that there is a high level of scepticism on this title. Coverage has also been quite staggered so I suppose that's also a red flag for a lot of people. For what it's worth, I think scepticism on any game is a good thing. I'm optimistic, and I do love the series, but am considering waiting a few days to see if it's worth the full retail price.
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Post by slimgrin on Jan 15, 2017 18:13:35 GMT
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Post by venomsnakeee on Jan 15, 2017 18:28:45 GMT
I read an interesting article on Forbes that speculated that Mass Effect Andromeda is being marketed carefully and trying not to build too much hype after both Mass Effect 3 and No Mans Sky were hit with insane amounts of (in my opinion, justified) criticism for building up hype with developer comments that were not true or misleading. Personally I think they are playing it slightly too safe. There are a lot of things that I want answers to and to see more of before release, and that is only two months away now. But I can't say I blame them. I think it's good they are playing it safe as well. Hopefully they will start to open up more about the game. As long as they don't start spoiling stuff lol.
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Arcian
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
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Post by Arcian on Jan 15, 2017 18:34:55 GMT
When even the industry shills are starting to get worried, you know it's bad for real.
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Post by armass81 on Jan 15, 2017 18:44:25 GMT
"The original endings were different, one of the leaked scripts even showed this. With an unconfirmed report that it was totally rewritten in the last minute because of the leak."
Nope, i can confirm they were pretty much the same, talking about singularity and stuff, as I was one of the people who read the leaks.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Jan 15, 2017 18:49:59 GMT
When even the industry shills are starting to get worried, you know it's bad for real. Honestly does it matter what they think?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 15, 2017 18:52:05 GMT
what nonsense is this? The benefit of a small marketing campaign is people can't know a lot to make these determinations. Unless they are using the marketing campaign as evidence and that's... Silly.
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Arcian
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
Prime Posts: 2473
Prime Likes: 2168
Posts: 928 Likes: 1,354
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Post by Arcian on Jan 15, 2017 18:53:33 GMT
"The original endings were different, one of the leaked scripts even showed this. With an unconfirmed report that it was totally rewritten in the last minute because of the leak."Nope, i can confirm they were pretty much the same, talking about singularity and stuff, as I was one of the people who read the leaks. Ditto. The leaked ending was virtually identical to the ending they shipped.
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