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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 21:41:28 GMT
They aren't 'just exploring' though. The reasons for going to the Andromeda Galaxy has nothing to do with the Reapers, at least that we know publicaly, and I doubt it has anything to do with an alien presence considering that would stretch the lore (way more then they are already doing to boot). I mean I suppose, and suspect, that there is a bit more to the AI then we have been told...but there you go. I repeat. You have two reasons that will make this work: 1. They're running from the Reapers. I suspect this is still the most likely. You don't call your ships "Arks" if you're out for a stroll. 2. The leaders of AI are contacted by some alien presence and urged to come to Andromeda for some reason. What the identity and the motive behind the call is, why it was made just to these people and not the galaxy at large is up in the air. As you can probably tell this is more of a holding action, it could make sense or it could be incredibly dumb final judgement to be postponed. Without details and answers to who and why, this could be anything. We may not get the answers this game. That's it. Anything else, including "lolexploring for the hell of it" is pure nonsense. And trying to justify it with old ship exploring doesn't work. As that article I found about Columbus which you never got back to said, exploring was a bit of a fool's errand that never got proper funding in terms of ships and equipment or was done solely for the purposes of establishing/enriching trade. In other words, for capitalism. Whereas the AI is obviously (and necessarily) top of the line and there's fuck all economic benefit to be gained from it for the rest of the galaxy. Not to mention that there's plenty of the Milky Way still left to explore that offers a hell of a lot better chances of return on investment. Two reasons of which you can think of/ accept. The other reason, the one they have given. Makes sense. For resources. Its the same reason Columbus et all left Europe... Which, I did not read your article...but really everything in your second paragraph more supports my argument then yours. I mean if you remove the assumption that everything in the AI is 'top of the line'. I don't know where you can say that. I don't even know how you can say that given your quite vocal arguments about how stupid they are for leaving without the ability to defend themselves. Whether you are right or not at the end of the day, is for the purposes of this post, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they may not have the funding, the resources, or the ability (A legal pass from the Citadel Council) to put weapons on their ships to defend themselves. And thats not all. We know that the Nexus is supposed to be finished on the other side once they get to Andromeda. Again, not an indication that this expedition is 'top of the line.' If it were top of the line the Nexus would be finished before they set out and they would be prepared. Hell now that I am thinking about it seems like, a lot like the ancient exploration of the planet during the age of Sail, the AI were hoping of finding money/ resources which would justify the expense once they got to Andromeda. The only thing the ONLY thing which can be argued as being 'top of the line' is the ODSY drive. Which, is a highly experimental prototype drive admittedly within the lore of the new game, so its likely that no one saw any practical application for it within the Milky Way but then along comes Jien and she, out of desperation is like, gimme gimme gimme. I mean, in essence, just because the ships 'look large and cool' does not mean this expedition is especially well funded. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think they may be very poorly funded relative to...anything else really.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 20, 2017 21:55:25 GMT
Comparing the Ai to the travels of the 15th century just do not work in the slightest. The money involved, the risks, the possible profit, the reasons behind it... they are all utterly, totally different. Not even the trips to the moon or SpaceX Mars program can be compared. Nothing can, really, becauce the Ai isn't logical. It works very much. The technology, stakes, and even reactions were pretty much the same. Granted the precise amount of time wasn't but Columbus (for instance) going west to explore the world was considered very risky and dangerous. He was considered an idiot. So much so I am highly surprised the authorities which financed the expedition financed the expedition. And the motivations for financing, and launching, said expedition, was virtually the same. For money, exploration, resources, etc. Then when you jump ahead...30 years in the future...Magellan set out from Spain for very similar reasons. Money. Resources. Find a quick trade route to Asia. And he died, and most of his ships either sunk or turned back. I mean its clear these are the parralels BioWare is trying to draw from a historical perspective its not even funny. Nope. Let's just look at the time of the voyage. To reach Andromeda it will take 600 years. That is, say, 6 times the avarage human lifespan in the Mass Effect universe. The equivalent would be Colombus' trip taking 1200 years or so. And that is just to get there. The money involved is also vastly different. Columbus' trip could be easily financed by rich people and if it failed they wouldn't go bankrupt. On the other hand the Arks alone are very expensive, but the Nexus is, according to the Mass Effect lore, impossible to finance. The reward is also vastly different. If Columbus' was right. The europeans kingdoms would have access to a trade route that would be very lucrative. Compared to that, if the Aks make it the people that invested would have no return, as any resource that could be found in Andromeda woud be available in the Milk Way as well, so there would be no advantage. There would be no profit at all.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 21:59:10 GMT
It works very much. The technology, stakes, and even reactions were pretty much the same. Granted the precise amount of time wasn't but Columbus (for instance) going west to explore the world was considered very risky and dangerous. He was considered an idiot. So much so I am highly surprised the authorities which financed the expedition financed the expedition. And the motivations for financing, and launching, said expedition, was virtually the same. For money, exploration, resources, etc. Then when you jump ahead...30 years in the future...Magellan set out from Spain for very similar reasons. Money. Resources. Find a quick trade route to Asia. And he died, and most of his ships either sunk or turned back. I mean its clear these are the parralels BioWare is trying to draw from a historical perspective its not even funny. Nope. Let's just look at the time of the voyage. To reach Andromeda it will take 600 years. That is, say, 6 times the avarage human lifespan in the Mass Effect universe. The equivalent would be Colombus' trip taking 1200 years or so. And that is just to get there. The money involved is also vastly different. Columbus' trip could be easily financed by rich people and if it failed they wouldn't go bankrupt. On the other hand the Arks alone are very expensive, but the Nexus is, according to the Mass Effect lore, impossible to finance. The reward is also vastly different. If Columbus' was right. The europeans kingdoms would have access to a trade route that would be very lucrative. Compared to that, if the Aks make it the people that invested would have no return, as any resource that could be found in Andromeda woud be available in the Milk Way as well, so there would be no advantage. There would be no profit at all. Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 22:08:44 GMT
Two reasons of which you can think of/ accept. The other reason, the one they have given. Makes sense. For resources. Its the same reason Columbus et all left Europe... Which, I did not read your article...but really everything in your second paragraph more supports my argument then yours. I mean if you remove the assumption that everything in the AI is 'top of the line'. I don't know where you can say that. I don't even know how you can say that given your quite vocal arguments about how stupid they are for leaving without the ability to defend themselves. Whether you are right or not at the end of the day, is for the purposes of this post, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they may not have the funding, the resources, or the ability (A legal pass from the Citadel Council) to put weapons on their ships to defend themselves. And thats not all. We know that the Nexus is supposed to be finished on the other side once they get to Andromeda. Again, not an indication that this expedition is 'top of the line.' If it were top of the line the Nexus would be finished before they set out and they would be prepared. Hell now that I am thinking about it seems like, a lot like the ancient exploration of the planet during the age of Sail, the AI were hoping of finding money/ resources which would justify the expense once they got to Andromeda. The only thing the ONLY thing which can be argued as being 'top of the line' is the ODSY drive. Which, is a highly experimental prototype drive admittedly within the lore of the new game, so its likely that no one saw any practical application for it within the Milky Way but then along comes Jien and she, out of desperation is like, gimme gimme gimme. I mean, in essence, just because the ships 'look large and cool' does not mean this expedition is especially well funded. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think they may be very poorly funded relative to...anything else really. No it really doesn't. Resources? That no one will be able to use for at least 1200 years? When there's so much closer to home unexplored and potentially rich in everything you need? Please. The AI is top of the line because it has to be. This ain't Star Wars where we can zip around the entire galaxy in a starfighter. With so many people arguing the trip to Andromeda should be impossible, you're going tell me it can be done in beater crafts? I don't think so. As for the weapons, not having them is pure idiocy. Full stop. No exceptions. The fact that you're still trying to throw Citadel laws at me like they matter makes me think you're just screwing with me.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 22:20:32 GMT
Two reasons of which you can think of/ accept. The other reason, the one they have given. Makes sense. For resources. Its the same reason Columbus et all left Europe... Which, I did not read your article...but really everything in your second paragraph more supports my argument then yours. I mean if you remove the assumption that everything in the AI is 'top of the line'. I don't know where you can say that. I don't even know how you can say that given your quite vocal arguments about how stupid they are for leaving without the ability to defend themselves. Whether you are right or not at the end of the day, is for the purposes of this post, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they may not have the funding, the resources, or the ability (A legal pass from the Citadel Council) to put weapons on their ships to defend themselves. And thats not all. We know that the Nexus is supposed to be finished on the other side once they get to Andromeda. Again, not an indication that this expedition is 'top of the line.' If it were top of the line the Nexus would be finished before they set out and they would be prepared. Hell now that I am thinking about it seems like, a lot like the ancient exploration of the planet during the age of Sail, the AI were hoping of finding money/ resources which would justify the expense once they got to Andromeda. The only thing the ONLY thing which can be argued as being 'top of the line' is the ODSY drive. Which, is a highly experimental prototype drive admittedly within the lore of the new game, so its likely that no one saw any practical application for it within the Milky Way but then along comes Jien and she, out of desperation is like, gimme gimme gimme. I mean, in essence, just because the ships 'look large and cool' does not mean this expedition is especially well funded. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think they may be very poorly funded relative to...anything else really. No it really doesn't. Resources? That no one will be able to use for at least 1200 years? When there's so much closer to home unexplored and potentially rich in everything you need? Please. The AI is top of the line because it has to be. This ain't Star Wars where we can zip around the entire galaxy in a starfighter. With so many people arguing the trip to Andromeda should be impossible, you're going tell me it can be done in beater crafts? I don't think so. As for the weapons, not having them is pure idiocy. Full stop. No exceptions. The fact that you're still trying to throw Citadel laws at me like they matter makes me think you're just screwing with me. Considering Tali/ The Quarians/ The people on Noveria was worried about Dark Energy and the Galaxy running out of resources. Tali flat out says during the run up to her loyalty mission that the galaxy has few enough resources without suns suddenly going super nova. Sure, the Dark Energy Plot was kind of dropped for ME 3, but the imputus is still there. People can think long term. People think long term now. We have futurists trying to predict decades, generations, even centuries in the future. Heck that is one of the things which Sci Fi is about. Its clear whoever is funding the AI is doing so thinking about the long term and thinking that society will still be around in 800 years. No it does not have to be. And nor did I ever say the ships were 'beater' craft...whatever that even means for practical purposes. There is a huge difference between top of the line ships IE The Normandy, the Destiny Ascension, Geth Dreadnaughts, and those cargo freighters you ran into constantly in ME 1 and 2. And the fact that you are thinking that I am screwing with you despite bringing up a good, lore consistant, argument, makes me wonder if you are screwing with me. And the fact is the weapons argument does not even matter to my post. It wasn't even something I was arguing so don't sit there and pretend that it was. My argument was the AI ships don't have weapons, for whatever reason it does not really matter, so the AI is not 'top of the line.' Which is true.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 22:35:45 GMT
Considering Tali/ The Quarians/ The people on Noveria was worried about Dark Energy and the Galaxy running out of resources. Tali flat out says during the run up to her loyalty mission that the galaxy has few enough resources without suns suddenly going super nova. Sure, the Dark Energy Plot was kind of dropped for ME 3, but the imputus is still there. People can think long term. People think long term now. We have futurists trying to predict decades, generations, even centuries in the future. Heck that is one of the things which Sci Fi is about. Its clear whoever is funding the AI is doing so thinking about the long term and thinking that society will still be around in 800 years. No it does not have to be. And nor did I ever say the ships were 'beater' craft...whatever that even means for practical purposes. There is a huge difference between top of the line ships IE The Normandy, the Destiny Ascension, Geth Dreadnaughts, and those cargo freighters you ran into constantly in ME 1 and 2. And the fact that you are thinking that I am screwing with you despite bringing up a good, lore consistant, argument, makes me wonder if you are screwing with me. And the fact is the weapons argument does not even matter to my post. It wasn't even something I was arguing so don't sit there and pretend that it was. My argument was the AI ships don't have weapons, for whatever reason it does not really matter, so the AI is not 'top of the line.' Which is true. Right, so Tali/Quarians/Noverians study less than 1% of available stars in the Milky Way and deduce the entire galaxy is running out of resources? Man the related memes on the extranet must be the dankest, with a conspiracy theory that poorly developed. And funny you should mention "now". How's your space program, whereever you live? Doesn't really matter where because all space programs are pretty much a joke these days. But sure, go ahead and argue how we should go to Pluto because "resources". See how far you get. Mass Effect tech cannot do intergalactic flight. This is non-negotiable. In order to do intergalactic flight anyway, and be somewhat credible about it, you need the very best of technology across the board to pull it off. This is equally non-negotiable. Hence top of the line. You will not do it in a beater cargo ship and expect to be taken seriously. Again, is this a serious entry into the franchise or a spoof of Mass Effect? That's arguing with lore. This no weapons and exploration stuff doesn't rely on lore, or logic or common sense. It is quite frankly, batshit. Oh also quick note: unless I missed something only the Nomad and the Tempest are confirmed to be unarmed. It's possibly Walters and co.'s latest idiocy extends to the other ships as well but as that's not confirmed yet (as far as I know) we can give them the benefit of the doubt still.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 22:42:33 GMT
Considering Tali/ The Quarians/ The people on Noveria was worried about Dark Energy and the Galaxy running out of resources. Tali flat out says during the run up to her loyalty mission that the galaxy has few enough resources without suns suddenly going super nova. Sure, the Dark Energy Plot was kind of dropped for ME 3, but the imputus is still there. People can think long term. People think long term now. We have futurists trying to predict decades, generations, even centuries in the future. Heck that is one of the things which Sci Fi is about. Its clear whoever is funding the AI is doing so thinking about the long term and thinking that society will still be around in 800 years. No it does not have to be. And nor did I ever say the ships were 'beater' craft...whatever that even means for practical purposes. There is a huge difference between top of the line ships IE The Normandy, the Destiny Ascension, Geth Dreadnaughts, and those cargo freighters you ran into constantly in ME 1 and 2. And the fact that you are thinking that I am screwing with you despite bringing up a good, lore consistant, argument, makes me wonder if you are screwing with me. And the fact is the weapons argument does not even matter to my post. It wasn't even something I was arguing so don't sit there and pretend that it was. My argument was the AI ships don't have weapons, for whatever reason it does not really matter, so the AI is not 'top of the line.' Which is true. Right, so Tali/Quarians/Noverians study less than 1% of available stars in the Milky Way and deduce the entire galaxy is running out of resources? Man the related memes on the extranet must be the dankest, with a conspiracy theory that poorly developed. And funny you should mention "now". How's your space program, whereever you live? Doesn't really matter where because all space programs are pretty much a joke these days. But sure, go ahead and argue how we should go to Pluto because "resources". See how far you get. Mass Effect tech cannot do intergalactic flight. This is non-negotiable. In order to do intergalactic flight anyway, and be somewhat credible about it, you need the very best of technology across the board to pull it off. This is equally non-negotiable. Hence top of the line. You will not do it in a beater cargo ship and expect to be taken seriously. Again, is this a serious entry into the franchise or a spoof of Mass Effect? That's arguing with lore. This no weapons and exploration stuff doesn't rely on lore, or logic or common sense. It is quite frankly, batshit. Oh also quick note: unless I missed something only the Nomad and the Tempest are confirmed to be unarmed. It's possibly Walters and co.'s latest idiocy extends to the other ships as well but as that's not confirmed yet (as far as I know) we can give them the benefit of the doubt still. I am not saying the statement was logical I am just saying the claim was made within the Mass Effect universe that suns going supernova would be bad for a resource strapped galaxy. Which is true. Super novas tend to atomize everything in a radius making those resources useless. And I am saying that someone might say 'wait, there is this resource rich area of space which might be an answer to this problem' is not so much of a stretch. I mean I've seen people do more idiotic things for less justification IRL. Serious people to. Besides just because they do not have active access to stars does not mean they cannot study them. We can study and take pictures of stars now with our relatively primitive technology and Mass Effect takes place roughly what? Lets say 200 years in our future? Give or take a decade or two? Annnnd Mass Effect, as a universe, has alien species which have been out there for 2000 years. It could not do intergalactic flight, but now it can. And I already argued this. The ODSY drive is experimental. Experimental technology does not mean its top of the line technology. Quite the opposite in fact.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 22:57:45 GMT
I am not saying the statement was logical I am just saying the claim was made within the Mass Effect universe that suns going supernova would be bad for a resource strapped galaxy. Which is true. Super novas tend to atomize everything in a radius making those resources useless. And I am saying that someone might say 'wait, there is this resource rich area of space which might be an answer to this problem' is not so much of a stretch. I mean I've seen people do more idiotic things for less justification IRL. Serious people to. Besides just because they do not have active access to stars does not mean they cannot study them. We can study and take pictures of stars now with our relatively primitive technology and Mass Effect takes place roughly what? Lets say 200 years in our future? Give or take a decade or two? Annnnd Mass Effect, as a universe, has alien species which have been out there for 2000 years. It could not do intergalactic flight, but now it can. And I already argued this. The ODSY drive is experimental. Experimental technology does not mean its top of the line technology. Quite the opposite in fact. It is when it takes over a millenia to get there, and it is when there are other, potentially richer options right freakin next door (relatively speaking) with a fraction of the cost, risk and thus many times the potential return on investment. Sure people do stupid things but not for quadjillion dollars and involving tens of thousands of people. There you have to at least be smart at the onset, even if things later go tits up. The AI without a compelling reason (ie. escape or some esoteric TBA) is anything but smart. What are you talking about? That's exactly what experimental means. Top of the line but untested, carrying greater risks. Again, do people at this level experiment with old, beat up shit?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 23:08:34 GMT
I am not saying the statement was logical I am just saying the claim was made within the Mass Effect universe that suns going supernova would be bad for a resource strapped galaxy. Which is true. Super novas tend to atomize everything in a radius making those resources useless. And I am saying that someone might say 'wait, there is this resource rich area of space which might be an answer to this problem' is not so much of a stretch. I mean I've seen people do more idiotic things for less justification IRL. Serious people to. Besides just because they do not have active access to stars does not mean they cannot study them. We can study and take pictures of stars now with our relatively primitive technology and Mass Effect takes place roughly what? Lets say 200 years in our future? Give or take a decade or two? Annnnd Mass Effect, as a universe, has alien species which have been out there for 2000 years. It could not do intergalactic flight, but now it can. And I already argued this. The ODSY drive is experimental. Experimental technology does not mean its top of the line technology. Quite the opposite in fact. It is when it takes over a millenia to get there, and it is when there are other, potentially richer options right freakin next door (relatively speaking) with a fraction of the cost, risk and thus many times the potential return on investment. Sure people do stupid things but not for quadjillion dollars and involving tens of thousands of people. There you have to at least be smart at the onset, even if things later go tits up. The AI without a compelling reason (ie. escape or some esoteric TBA) is anything but smart. What are you talking about? That's exactly what experimental means. Top of the line but untested, carrying greater risks. Again, do people at this level experiment with old, beat up shit? Where are we getting these money answers from to make any quantitive guess about how much the AI is actually costing? And they have options right freaking next door...which the Council won't let you get to because they are draconian about allowing for further exploration. IE its almost impossible to explore the MW Galaxy with the Council sitting in power and which is why the Council has been in power for 2000 + years and yet only 1 % of the Galaxy has been explored. And such people who would be interested in funding something like the AI do not care really about personal profit or the profit for their company but they care about the future. IE they see the writing on the wall, they see stars going nova, they are scared by it, logically or not, and they want to find a solution to this problem. Find another resource pool. Maybe even find an escape route into Andromeda which they hope is dark energy free. They care about the future of their species. And again such people exisist now in real life. Which again, such people, are thinking very, very, long term, because...I think though I am not sure...that Tali herself again did not think it was an immediete problem, but one that could happen later on down the road. Let me talk you through an example. You are driving a new car. With a great, brand new, fantastic, experimental engine. And you go through and it goes off without a hitch and it is declared by everyone to be the best engine ever, the top of the line in other words. But another person drives another car and that car CRASHES, or explodes or something based on its highly experimental, brand new, fantastic engine. Now would you call that technology top of the line? No. Experimental does not equal top of the line. Experimental means...experimental. Now as far as the purposes of the AI is concerned by some of the stuff we have read and been exposed to we can resonably guess that the AI ODSY drives has a forty percent failure/ not quite work as expected rate. Now if I were a conumer, and wanted a brand new engine on my spaceship and saw the engine had a 40% failure rate...I don't think I would but it/ nor consider it top of the line.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 23:37:38 GMT
No it really doesn't. Resources? That no one will be able to use for at least 1200 years? When there's so much closer to home unexplored and potentially rich in everything you need? Please. The AI is top of the line because it has to be. This ain't Star Wars where we can zip around the entire galaxy in a starfighter. With so many people arguing the trip to Andromeda should be impossible, you're going tell me it can be done in beater crafts? I don't think so. As for the weapons, not having them is pure idiocy. Full stop. No exceptions. The fact that you're still trying to throw Citadel laws at me like they matter makes me think you're just screwing with me. Considering Tali/ The Quarians/ The people on Noveria was worried about Dark Energy and the Galaxy running out of resources. Tali flat out says during the run up to her loyalty mission that the galaxy has few enough resources without suns suddenly going super nova. Sure, the Dark Energy Plot was kind of dropped for ME 3, but the imputus is still there. People can think long term. People think long term now. We have futurists trying to predict decades, generations, even centuries in the future. Heck that is one of the things which Sci Fi is about. Its clear whoever is funding the AI is doing so thinking about the long term and thinking that society will still be around in 800 years. No it does not have to be. And nor did I ever say the ships were 'beater' craft...whatever that even means for practical purposes. There is a huge difference between top of the line ships IE The Normandy, the Destiny Ascension, Geth Dreadnaughts, and those cargo freighters you ran into constantly in ME 1 and 2. And the fact that you are thinking that I am screwing with you despite bringing up a good, lore consistant, argument, makes me wonder if you are screwing with me. And the fact is the weapons argument does not even matter to my post. It wasn't even something I was arguing so don't sit there and pretend that it was. My argument was the AI ships don't have weapons, for whatever reason it does not really matter, so the AI is not 'top of the line.' Which is true. It's been a while since I've done that mission. But did she specifically say "resources", or could she have been referring to garden worlds. Garden worlds are supposed to be pretty rare commodities. More rare than, say asteroids to mine, or whatever.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2017 23:39:45 GMT
Considering Tali/ The Quarians/ The people on Noveria was worried about Dark Energy and the Galaxy running out of resources. Tali flat out says during the run up to her loyalty mission that the galaxy has few enough resources without suns suddenly going super nova. Sure, the Dark Energy Plot was kind of dropped for ME 3, but the imputus is still there. People can think long term. People think long term now. We have futurists trying to predict decades, generations, even centuries in the future. Heck that is one of the things which Sci Fi is about. Its clear whoever is funding the AI is doing so thinking about the long term and thinking that society will still be around in 800 years. No it does not have to be. And nor did I ever say the ships were 'beater' craft...whatever that even means for practical purposes. There is a huge difference between top of the line ships IE The Normandy, the Destiny Ascension, Geth Dreadnaughts, and those cargo freighters you ran into constantly in ME 1 and 2. And the fact that you are thinking that I am screwing with you despite bringing up a good, lore consistant, argument, makes me wonder if you are screwing with me. And the fact is the weapons argument does not even matter to my post. It wasn't even something I was arguing so don't sit there and pretend that it was. My argument was the AI ships don't have weapons, for whatever reason it does not really matter, so the AI is not 'top of the line.' Which is true. It's been a while since I've done that mission. But did she specifically say "resources", or could she have been referring to garden worlds. Garden worlds are supposed to be pretty rare commodities. More rare than, say asteroids to mine, or whatever. I think she said resources. But...well I am coming up on the mission in my playthrough so if I remember I will post a retraction. Either way though it still works because the first briefing also mentioned 'a high level of Golden Worlds'. So Golden Worlds/ Resources...for sake of argument....might be relatively the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 0:15:52 GMT
I am not saying the statement was logical I am just saying the claim was made within the Mass Effect universe that suns going supernova would be bad for a resource strapped galaxy. Which is true. Super novas tend to atomize everything in a radius making those resources useless. And I am saying that someone might say 'wait, there is this resource rich area of space which might be an answer to this problem' is not so much of a stretch. I mean I've seen people do more idiotic things for less justification IRL. Serious people to. Besides just because they do not have active access to stars does not mean they cannot study them. We can study and take pictures of stars now with our relatively primitive technology and Mass Effect takes place roughly what? Lets say 200 years in our future? Give or take a decade or two? Annnnd Mass Effect, as a universe, has alien species which have been out there for 2000 years. It could not do intergalactic flight, but now it can. And I already argued this. The ODSY drive is experimental. Experimental technology does not mean its top of the line technology. Quite the opposite in fact. It is when it takes over a millenia to get there, and it is when there are other, potentially richer options right freakin next door (relatively speaking) with a fraction of the cost, risk and thus many times the potential return on investment. Sure people do stupid things but not for quadjillion dollars and involving tens of thousands of people. There you have to at least be smart at the onset, even if things later go tits up. The AI without a compelling reason (ie. escape or some esoteric TBA) is anything but smart. What are you talking about? That's exactly what experimental means. Top of the line but untested, carrying greater risks. Again, do people at this level experiment with old, beat up shit?
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Post by pdusen on Jan 21, 2017 3:23:29 GMT
They either have to be fleeing the Reapers or there has to be something that calls them to Andromeda, some not yet revealed alien presence for some reasons we can only hope will be good. Anything else (including/especially "just lolexploring") is dumb. You may think it's "dumb", but it's also 100% realistic. There are a lot of crazy rich people in the world, and this is exactly how many of them behave. I've met some of them first-hand. They usually don't succeed, but sometimes they do. Yeah, saying this over and over again isn't going to make it any more true.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 21, 2017 3:39:49 GMT
How does the motivation for resources/wealth make sense with Andromeda if it's being billed/pushed as a one way trip? I think you can make the case for lebensraum given the peril most colonies face in the Milky Way. I saw a fan-made timeline that pins the start of the Ai next to the attack on Elysium, so that itself can be seen as a powerful motivator. The Age of Exploration certainly had advances in tech going for it with the sextant, better maps/ships, etc. There was also a huge religious component to it that we don't quite have with Ai, at least none that we know of just yet. It's a one-way trip for these individuals but they're also meant to establish a trade route with the Milky Way. That is, these people went to establish a colony and collect resources that could be traded back to the Milky Way.
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Post by peterrrrr on Jan 21, 2017 7:53:07 GMT
My biggest concerns is:
1)The combat system, after seeing the two gameplay trailers it looks like an more tradional combat system from MMO instead of the more tactical hiding behind walls/boxes. The new system feels very flat. Also it seems that you play a lot without your squadmates which means less power combos.
2) The face animations
3) How good is the new characters compared to Shepard, Shepard is Mass Effect for me. Maybe he comes back again in another game.
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Post by Cyonan on Jan 21, 2017 8:45:19 GMT
My biggest concerns is: 1)The combat system, after seeing the two gameplay trailers it looks like an more tradional combat system from MMO instead of the more tactical hiding behind walls/boxes. The new system feels very flat. Also it seems that you play a lot without your squadmates which means less power combos. 2) The face animations 3) How good is the new characters compared to Shepard, Shepard is Mass Effect for me. Maybe he comes back again in another game. To be fair Mass Effect has never really been that tactical in its combat once you get the right set of abilities. I'm not really sure where the MMO thing comes from considering traditional MMOs are hotkey based games that are closer to what Dragon Age plays like. Mass Effect is still a third person shooter, it's just that unlike ME2 it doesn't want you to spend 90% of the game hiding behind a chest high wall. Mass Effect 3 tried to get away from that as well. Also keep in mind in most demonstrations of a game the person playing is playing on the lowest difficulty so they can focus on showing off certain mechanics. They're rarely, if ever, representative of what the game will play like on a higher difficulty.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 21, 2017 9:26:10 GMT
I'm not keeping up with what's going on with MEA and so I recently learned, several days ago in the SC thread, that the Tempest is a "luxury liner". Toothless. That makes me Who, in their right minds, would go off to an unexplored galaxy in toothless ships? I'm not saying I think MEA will flunk but this is another downward notch for the game on top of the way they're selling it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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Post by helios969 on Jan 21, 2017 9:51:07 GMT
Nope. Let's just look at the time of the voyage. To reach Andromeda it will take 600 years. That is, say, 6 times the avarage human lifespan in the Mass Effect universe. The equivalent would be Colombus' trip taking 1200 years or so. And that is just to get there. The money involved is also vastly different. Columbus' trip could be easily financed by rich people and if it failed they wouldn't go bankrupt. On the other hand the Arks alone are very expensive, but the Nexus is, according to the Mass Effect lore, impossible to finance. The reward is also vastly different. If Columbus' was right. The europeans kingdoms would have access to a trade route that would be very lucrative. Compared to that, if the Aks make it the people that invested would have no return, as any resource that could be found in Andromeda woud be available in the Milk Way as well, so there would be no advantage. There would be no profit at all. Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae. As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications).
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 21, 2017 9:51:34 GMT
I still don't understand why some people are that worried about covers. In the last trailer Ryder was getting his ass kicked by not going into cover, and the difficulty level was very likely normal or below. I'm pretty sure covers will be needed, for most of the builds we can do in the game.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 21, 2017 9:54:33 GMT
Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae. As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications). If the Reapers were the reason behind the project, is highly likely the vast majority of the volunteers didn't know about it, with the higher ups knowing it. Although even in this case I think there are high chances they'll leave it as a private project.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Jan 21, 2017 9:57:34 GMT
As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications). If the Reapers were the reason behind the project, is highly likely the vast majority of the volunteers didn't know about it, with the higher ups knowing it. Although even in this case I think there are high chances they'll leave it as a private project. I don't mind that it's a private venture as a front with government support behind the scenes, but if really just turns out to be about wealthy people decided to do this for "reasons," I'm just going to have to shake my head. It would be disappointing that's the best Bioware could come up with.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 21, 2017 10:34:00 GMT
If the Reapers were the reason behind the project, is highly likely the vast majority of the volunteers didn't know about it, with the higher ups knowing it. Although even in this case I think there are high chances they'll leave it as a private project. I don't mind that it's a private venture as a front with government support behind the scenes, but if really just turns out to be about wealthy people decided to do this for "reasons," I'm just going to have to shake my head. It would be disappointing that's the best Bioware could come up with. What if it's a private venture with the real, secret reasoning being escaping the Reaper threat to guarantee a future for the cycle? The governments don't have to be involved for having that motivation. We do know after all that most of the Alliance hierarchy didn't believe the Reaper threat, as well as the turians before Garrus convinced his father. The Council did actually believe it, as we know from Citadel, but that was after ME. The Initiative is older then that. I think though, regardless if it's the Reapers, that there's a secret reasoning behind the Initiative beside 'exploration'.
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Post by armass81 on Jan 21, 2017 10:56:06 GMT
The way i see it, the AI was a pipedream project that was constructed and had some support(even if the galaxy hopping turned out to be out of reach they could use it to explore outside the relay network in milky way) but they had a huge problem with the drive, how it could do the intergalactic travel naturally. This all changed, including the motivation after Sovereigns attack, and they got their hands on the reapers tech(as we know reapers can pretty much fly even long distances without seemingly discharging), and come up with ODSY. Also looking at the reapers attack, remains, the porthean ruins, Shepards ramblings etc, they start to put two and two together and some of them really believed in the threat now even if its publicly downplayed or denied, and show greenlight to this project to go to the Andromeda to save the remains of their respected civilizations. So they launch as soon as possible which luckily for them happens right before reapers arrive. This is the only way i see it making even some sense, tough its not perfect. If its any of these reasons theyve thrown out, including "think of the resourcers" and "because its there" well: Columbus discovering America i understand, but this is on a whole another scale, its like taking a small wooden raft to the new world, its way too dangerous and premature and costly not to mention insane to pull without some hugely pushing motive other than "sake of exploration or money". Kardashev type 3 civilization could likely do the intergalactic travel, but thats not what the civilization in milky way are, they are at most type 2(given by the prothean tech) using some type 3 tech that was again given to them by reapers(namely the relays). You have to learn to walk before you can run. "It's a one-way trip for these individuals but they're also meant to establish a trade route with the Milky Way. That is, these people went to establish a colony and collect resources that could be traded back to the Milky Way." And how exactly are they going to accomplish that? Build some sort of super relay to link Milky Way and Andromeda together(how, with what tech?), cause without it these freighters(which would all need ODSYs and there would have to be so many of them) would take 600 years to reach back into the milky way with their comparatively miniscule cargo(which likely wouldnt even cover one percent of the costs this whole project took), is it really worth it, especially when you have a mostly unexplored and untapped resource rich galaxy you live in, in both MW and AND cases? Id say "hell no". If theyve given that explanaiton to the colonists and pioneers, they have to be either stupid or delusional to believe that could work. I cant wait to read the book "the andromeda iniative" to give some light into what the hell the people who came up with this, both fictional and real, had in mind. The more you start to think about this the more it seems to just make no sense at all, and falls apart. And im afraid under Walters, this is exactly the type of scifi technobabble explanations we keep getting: "dont think about it too deeply"... sigh. .
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Post by armass81 on Jan 21, 2017 11:54:23 GMT
I wouldnt be surpised if Ryder was given this speech by Jien or someone else during the game at some point:
"Yeah the reasons, we came up here and why you signed up... we havent really been honest, with any of you, because the truth is just unbearable to tell. You see there are no civilizations left in the Milky Way anymore, we cant get contact with any of their quantum entanglers. They are gone... extinct. Its because of the reason we left, the real reason. The reapers. We are all that is left of the human and milky way civilization."
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 21, 2017 12:20:51 GMT
Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae. As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications). Well put, sir. It's just that simple. You cannot explain the Ai without totally trivializing economics, technology and everything else really. Maybe there will be a better explanation for it, maybe there won't be. More important than that I believe is the game itself. If Andromeda is amazing, then I can overlook all the plot holes, retcons and lazy writing that got us there.
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