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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 12:35:57 GMT
Well put, sir. It's just that simple. You cannot explain the Ai without totally trivializing economics, technology and everything else really. Maybe there will be a better explanation for it, maybe there won't be. More important than that I believe is the game itself. If Andromeda is amazing, then I can overlook all the plot holes, retcons and lazy writing that got us there. 'Trivializing', eh.... Let me tell you what's 'trivializing'. It's ignoring the power of determination, of curiosity, of dedication ... of the call to adventure of friendship and of love. In the name of all past explorers, men of heart, as well as of guts, I implore you not to infect us with the negativity in your cold heart. You think we can't go to another galaxy, if we put our minds to it, and really believed in ourselves?As John Travolta once said: First they laugh at you, Then they giggle But then you win.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 13:19:12 GMT
Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae. As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications). Thank you!
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 21, 2017 14:11:02 GMT
Well put, sir. It's just that simple. You cannot explain the Ai without totally trivializing economics, technology and everything else really. Maybe there will be a better explanation for it, maybe there won't be. More important than that I believe is the game itself. If Andromeda is amazing, then I can overlook all the plot holes, retcons and lazy writing that got us there. 'Trivializing', eh.... Let me tell you what's 'trivializing'. It's ignoring the power of determination, of curiosity, of dedication ... of the call to adventure of friendship and of love. In the name of all past explorers, men of heart, as well as of guts, I implore you not to infect us with the negativity in your cold heart. You think we can't go to another galaxy, if we put our minds to it, and really believed in ourselves?As John Travolta once said: First they laugh at you, Then they giggle But then you win.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 21, 2017 15:21:49 GMT
Where are you getting your money numbers for the arks and the imposibility of the Nexus to finance? I do not frankly think ME lore ever went into economics too much, internal economics too much, much to its lack of credit actually. Its a flaw with the setting. But just proves you that ME was not...nailed down to all the minutiae. As someone who has spent 20 years in applied physics I can say with confidence any such venture would be out of reach for private investors even factoring in space magic. You can make some educated guesses based on RL examples and experiences. Apollo moon landing cost ~25 billion in 1970's dollars (about 150 billion today) and took the wealth and support of the richest nation a decade or more to bring to fruition. The AI would be several orders of magnitude more difficult...let's just make it a million times more. That's 10^6 more money, 10^6 more time, 10^6 more difficulty creating the leap in technology to traverse the vast distance. The original Normandy's drive core was a 120 billion credits of eezo (whatever that actually translates to). If the ODSY drive is alone 10^6 more expensive...then we're talking about 10^15 credits...for just the drive core! Even if you think my estimates are too high and it's merely 1000x, those numbers get out of hand fast. So when people start throwing around impossible, these are things they're thinking about. While this is just a game and most people could care less and just want to play, not all in BSN can ignore what we see as straight up ignorance by the writing team (though I'm still holding out hope that it ends up the project was supported by the galactic government and was in fact a contingency against the Reapers...and the sibling Ryders simply do not know about the larger ramifications). ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Hm... Seems a teeny itzy bity stretch that today's productivity numbers are translated in a linear fashion appx. 1.5 centuries from today. Especially so, when today we have "primitive" quantum computers that run circles around the world's top super computer (China's Tianhe-2 ). A century from now practical quantum comps will reduce research by some magnitude. Same goes for manufacturing, Just map the quantum jump in productivity when the Industrial Revolution started. I bet that if one asked educated people, prior to the IR, if the future could increase manufacturing capacities hundred fold, they'd laugh at you (ie: everything was hand made... remember the Guilds ?).
Anyway, science fiction stories are not bound by today's economic realities, moralities, human physical weaknesses, politics or the limitations of current known science. I chuckle at the fact that "economic complainers" have no problem with Eezo or the Mass Effect field effects. I found it nonsensical that my Shep was revived from sample DNA with his memories fully intact. It did not prevent me from enjoying ME2.
"Impossible" Ai economics is not going to prevent me from enjoying ME:A.
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Post by blanks on Jan 21, 2017 15:25:19 GMT
How does the motivation for resources/wealth make sense with Andromeda if it's being billed/pushed as a one way trip? I think you can make the case for lebensraum given the peril most colonies face in the Milky Way. I saw a fan-made timeline that pins the start of the Ai next to the attack on Elysium, so that itself can be seen as a powerful motivator. The Age of Exploration certainly had advances in tech going for it with the sextant, better maps/ships, etc. There was also a huge religious component to it that we don't quite have with Ai, at least none that we know of just yet. It's a one-way trip for these individuals but they're also meant to establish a trade route with the Milky Way. That is, these people went to establish a colony and collect resources that could be traded back to the Milky Way. I guess that could work if the Nexus, once completed, is some kind of super massive relay back to the Milky Way. That's (trade mission) not something I've seen bandied about in interviews or even alluded to though.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 21, 2017 15:31:55 GMT
It's a one-way trip for these individuals but they're also meant to establish a trade route with the Milky Way. That is, these people went to establish a colony and collect resources that could be traded back to the Milky Way. I guess that could work if the Nexus, once completed, is some kind of super massive relay back to the Milky Way. That's (trade mission) not something I've seen bandied about in interviews or even alluded to though. www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309671More on the Andromeda Initiative: "Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185, the Andromeda Initiative is a civilian, multi-species project created to send scientists, explorers and colonists on a one-way trip to settle in the Andromeda Galaxy. With powerful benefactors lending their support, the program has grown substantially in scope since its inception. The Initiative’s ultimate goal is to establish a permanent presence on the seemingly resource-rich frontier of Andromeda, and eventually create a reliable route between it and the Milky Way Galaxy."
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Post by armass81 on Jan 21, 2017 15:37:28 GMT
I guess that could work if the Nexus, once completed, is some kind of super massive relay back to the Milky Way. That's (trade mission) not something I've seen bandied about in interviews or even alluded to though. www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309671More on the Andromeda Initiative: "Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185, the Andromeda Initiative is a civilian, multi-species project created to send scientists, explorers and colonists on a one-way trip to settle in the Andromeda Galaxy. With powerful benefactors lending their support, the program has grown substantially in scope since its inception. The Initiative’s ultimate goal is to establish a permanent presence on the seemingly resource-rich frontier of Andromeda, and eventually create a reliable route between it and the Milky Way Galaxy." That reason is BS(and it better be for lores sake). It may convince some naive settlers but it doesnt convince us.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 21, 2017 15:56:43 GMT
I guess that could work if the Nexus, once completed, is some kind of super massive relay back to the Milky Way. That's (trade mission) not something I've seen bandied about in interviews or even alluded to though. www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309671More on the Andromeda Initiative: "Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185, the Andromeda Initiative is a civilian, multi-species project created to send scientists, explorers and colonists on a one-way trip to settle in the Andromeda Galaxy. With powerful benefactors lending their support, the program has grown substantially in scope since its inception. The Initiative’s ultimate goal is to establish a permanent presence on the seemingly resource-rich frontier of Andromeda, and eventually create a reliable route between it and the Milky Way Galaxy." The fact that this is the official reason doesn't mean it's necessarily the real one. Bioware teased on twitter on a secret reason behind the initiative. And a lot of what the briefings said smells propaganda. While what you posted might be the only reason behind it, it's not necessarily like this. We'll have to wait and see in the full game.
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Post by thedarkprince on Jan 21, 2017 16:01:04 GMT
I do have some concerns. I mean the game launches in 2 months and Bioware has still shown very little of the game. Can't recall any major title so close to launch with so little shown of it. Either Bioware just wants fans to be truly surprised when they first play it......or they are trying to hide flaws it has. Guess we will find out soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 16:20:46 GMT
I do have some concerns. I mean the game launches in 2 months and Bioware has still shown very little of the game. Can't recall any major title so close to launch with so little shown of it. Either Bioware just wants fans to be truly surprised when they first play it......or they are trying to hide flaws it has. Guess we will find out soon. ... or they're leery of "feeding" the "feeding frenzy" of their fans who are just sitting here waiting to completely shred every detail about the game in a negative way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 16:38:52 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Hm... Seems a teeny itzy bity stretch that today's productivity numbers are translated in a linear fashion appx. 1.5 centuries from today. Especially so, when today we have "primitive" quantum computers that run circles around the world's top super computer (China's Tianhe-2 ). A century from now practical quantum comps will reduce research by some magnitude. Same goes for manufacturing, Just map the quantum jump in productivity when the Industrial Revolution started. I bet that if one asked educated people, prior to the IR, if the future could increase manufacturing capacities hundred fold, they'd laugh at you (ie: everything was hand made... remember the Guilds ?).
Anyway, science fiction stories are not bound by today's economic realities, moralities, human physical weaknesses, politics or the limitations of current known science. I chuckle at the fact that "economic complainers" have no problem with Eezo or the Mass Effect field effects. I found it nonsensical that my Shep was revived from sample DNA with his memories fully intact. It did not prevent me from enjoying ME2.
"Impossible" Ai economics is not going to prevent me from enjoying ME:A.
Good point. The change from a planetary to a galactic economy could allow for the increase of private wealth within the fiction.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 21, 2017 16:50:18 GMT
Hm... Seems a teeny itzy bity stretch that today's productivity numbers are translated in a linear fashion appx. 1.5 centuries from today. Especially so, when today we have "primitive" quantum computers that run circles around the world's top super computer (China's Tianhe-2 ). A century from now practical quantum comps will reduce research by some magnitude. Same goes for manufacturing, Just map the quantum jump in productivity when the Industrial Revolution started. I bet that if one asked educated people, prior to the IR, if the future could increase manufacturing capacities hundred fold, they'd laugh at you (ie: everything was hand made... remember the Guilds ?).
Anyway, science fiction stories are not bound by today's economic realities, moralities, human physical weaknesses, politics or the limitations of current known science. I chuckle at the fact that "economic complainers" have no problem with Eezo or the Mass Effect field effects. I found it nonsensical that my Shep was revived from sample DNA with his memories fully intact. It did not prevent me from enjoying ME2.
"Impossible" Ai economics is not going to prevent me from enjoying ME:A.
This hits on what I find most problematic about the complaints. It's like people are just trying to find anything they can jump on to complain about it. It's true that things could be every bit as flawed as they think but we just don't know yet. And, as you say, real world economics don't translate well into science fiction. They rarely do. A rogue organization spent four billion credits plus whatever the Normandy SR2 cost to build plus matching credit finds at every turn in ME2. That makes no sense. That level of money is ridiculous for any one person to be able to throw around casually and still have plenty to spend elsewhere. Yet, I see little in the way of complaints because people generally liked ME2. If MEA comes out and it's totally nonsensical, go ahead and complain. For now, we know so little. Wait and see what happens.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 21, 2017 20:31:38 GMT
Where are we getting these money answers from to make any quantitive guess about how much the AI is actually costing? And they have options right freaking next door...which the Council won't let you get to because they are draconian about allowing for further exploration. IE its almost impossible to explore the MW Galaxy with the Council sitting in power and which is why the Council has been in power for 2000 + years and yet only 1 % of the Galaxy has been explored. And such people who would be interested in funding something like the AI do not care really about personal profit or the profit for their company but they care about the future. IE they see the writing on the wall, they see stars going nova, they are scared by it, logically or not, and they want to find a solution to this problem. Find another resource pool. Maybe even find an escape route into Andromeda which they hope is dark energy free. They care about the future of their species. And again such people exisist now in real life. Which again, such people, are thinking very, very, long term, because...I think though I am not sure...that Tali herself again did not think it was an immediete problem, but one that could happen later on down the road. Let me talk you through an example. You are driving a new car. With a great, brand new, fantastic, experimental engine. And you go through and it goes off without a hitch and it is declared by everyone to be the best engine ever, the top of the line in other words. But another person drives another car and that car CRASHES, or explodes or something based on its highly experimental, brand new, fantastic engine. Now would you call that technology top of the line? No. Experimental does not equal top of the line. Experimental means...experimental. Now as far as the purposes of the AI is concerned by some of the stuff we have read and been exposed to we can resonably guess that the AI ODSY drives has a forty percent failure/ not quite work as expected rate. Now if I were a conumer, and wanted a brand new engine on my spaceship and saw the engine had a 40% failure rate...I don't think I would but it/ nor consider it top of the line. helios969 already completely pwned teh money argument better than I could. Otherwise: The Council won't "allow it" is your reasoning for not exploring uncharted space? The actual fuck? First off the Council only has rules about opening unknown relays, it has precisely zip to say about just FTLing to a non-relay system. Second of all, if this suddenly oppressive Council (who the Batarians just told to fuck off with zero consequences) is somehow stopping people from exploring local systems, they'll suddenly turn around and be ok with going to another galaxy? Like, honestly how are you reaching right now? Top of the line = top of the line, top of the line =/= perfect or perfectly safe. We usually insist on proven safety tracks because we a) have the luxury of doing so and generally don't want to die/be injured and c) can sue the crap out of people if they don't the edge of a knife safe enough. There is no law of this reality that says this must be the case. Hell look at Cerberus design principles. Let's take an already oversized drive core and double it. Oh and let's also have our engineering department r ight freakin there without so much as a curtain if the drive overloads and vents into the adjacent compartment. Or the Hammerhead. Hovers, high speed and maneuverability, wicked firepower, zero shields and paper thin armor (thank God for that self-repair however that works system). Cerberus- bringing you top of the line experimental designs that may or may not blow up in your face. Because progress! You may think it's "dumb", but it's also 100% realistic. There are a lot of crazy rich people in the world, and this is exactly how many of them behave. I've met some of them first-hand. They usually don't succeed, but sometimes they do. "Yeah, saying this over and over again isn't going to make it any more true."
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2017 21:04:14 GMT
Anyways...
I do find it a little bit funny/ ironic that the BioWare marketing campaign has pretty much already addressed many of these...issues. Really. The BioWare mareting campaign for Andromeda has been one of the most interesting ideas in its conception if not in its actual execution. If you do not like the idea of the AI, if you think its stupid, dumb, illogical, if you do not feel safe with the Andromeda Iniative, you don't have to volunteer. IE you do not have to buy the game. Its, as I said, a very interesting melding of real world and the game world.
Now as far as the in game writing is concerned. I'm not worried. Why? Because its BioWare. A company who has always been solid in terms of their story and character writing...in fact they have been pretty excellent in those qualities. I am biased in favor of BioWare. Why? Because they have built up a level of trust and expectation with me. My favorite game of all time is a BioWare game. My Second favorite game of all time is probably a BioWare game. And I have never played a game of theirs below Tier 3, the worse BioWare game I've ever played (Dragon Age Origins) I still ended up liking quite a bit. And despite the 310 hours I have put into BioWare games (Ie on my first/ longest playthrough of each game...though I am not counting Awakening...damn) I have only found two examples of their writing that have been especially bad. The ending of ME 3 and Liara T'soni. So I trust them to make a good game and a good game from a writing perspective.
Wheras in fact all these problems that people have pointed out with the AI? BioWare has acknowledged many of them in the in game marketing and has given us enough of an indication that their usual writing quality is being maintained. Because, and I am not going to go into all the reasons for fear of spoilers and I have discussed them at length elsewhere, the Andromeda Iniative gets to the AG and then everything pretty much goes straight to hell.
So that just leaves the Gameplay as my only real concern, personally. And I think most of the worries about this game are being levelled at the gameplay rather then at the story or characters or setting. And that's because they are trying to do so much new with the game. Will the Profile system work? Wil the 'three power limit' be restrictive or will it work? Will the game abandoning classes be a good move? Will their be enough role playing options? Etc, etc. etc. (Though I will admit the Ryders are getting a fair amount of hand wringing too)
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 21, 2017 21:41:31 GMT
colfoley : Hey man, if you literally think BioWare can do no wrong, and their past crimes against quality are unknown to you, maybe lead with that next time. Could've saved us both some time. There's no point arguing a belief that deep or indeed of having arguments that won't move past that. You're of course entitled to it as well, so I hope you have fun when the game comes out.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2017 21:48:53 GMT
colfoley : Hey man, if you literally think BioWare can do no wrong, and their past crimes against quality are unknown to you, maybe lead with that next time. Could've saved us both some time. There's no point arguing a belief that deep or indeed of having arguments that won't move past that. You're of course entitled to it as well, so I hope you have fun when the game comes out. I did not say that BioWare can do no wrong in fact I made the exact opposite argument. BioWare can, and has, and will probably continue to do a lot wrong. In terms of gameplay/ story/ setting/ and character. And furthermore in the very same post you say I said that BioWare can do no wrong you also acknowledge that I said the exact opposite in my argument. And this is what has gotten really frustrating about debating with you. You have constantly strawmanned and ad homminened your way to victory. Now don't get me wrong I have enjoyed this argument and this debate, but its getting more and more frustrating when you are making claims about what I am arguing that just aren't true and made up, and then attacking those claims as if I made them in the first place. My argument is, once again, BioWare can do wrong, BioWare has done wrong, but BioWare has done enough right where I trust them to execute their craft. AND I trust them to excercise their craft because they seem to almost be psychicaly aware of your arguments (and others) and are going to address them in the game. This is examples of good writing, not bad.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2017 21:53:34 GMT
Heck, when you get down to it despite BioWare's flaws, I end up enjoying their games anyways. Its just a difference of millage in terms of what people think is important in thier entertainment. Take DA I for instance. People pan the game, people have some very legit complaints for them, and my own criticisms with the game are as long as my arm. But its still my favorite game of all time. Why? Because Inquisition what it gets right it gets really right, a lot of what it gets wrong I don't really care about, and it still managed to immerse me and pull me in a way no other Video Game has ever done before.
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Post by lukensen87 on Jan 21, 2017 22:23:24 GMT
Lol, DAI would be almost perfect game to me if not for that boring, MMO style fetch quests, and uninteresting, almost empty hubs, with no interesting side quests or characters in it (ME1, ME2, DAO and even DA2 had some), other than that I loved the game, well maybe main story with ''Coryfagus'' was lame too, but at least it has some depth in it. Also most companions were good and with cool stories, I loved Blackwall story in all, also Solas was cool and I liked Josephine. So.. my point is that if MEA will improve in those aspects at least a little, then it will be GOTY for me for sure E: Respawning enemies every corner in DAI was really pain in the bu** I would really love to see modding tools for MEA, so even if they will do something that many players dislikes, at least modders would be able to fix/improve it. But Frostbite is not that mod friendly..
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2017 22:28:51 GMT
Lol, DAI would be almost perfect game to me if not for that boring, MMO style fetch quests, and uninteresting, almost empty hubs, with no interesting side quests or characters in it (ME1, ME2, DAO and even DA2 had some), other than that I loved the game, well maybe main story with ''Coryfagus'' was lame too, but at least it has some depth in it. I don't really wanna derail the thread too much but calling DA Is 'fetch quests' 'MMO-like' rings very, very, hollow to me. So much so its kind of disengenious. Fetch quests/ collections have exisisted in gaming long before the rise of the MMO to the point where pretty much every video game genre has their own twist on the mechanic. Which, yes granted, a lot of the quests were fetch quests (especially in the Hinterlands). But some zones had 1, 2,3 really, really, really interesting quests here and there. Heck some of the fetch quests also had interesting implications. Sure, it was a flaw in the game story/ design but...at least imo...its own that has been way, way, way, overblown. Also imo, as I have stated elsewhere, I tend to view 'side quests/ collection stuff' as being over all very unimportant to how I view games. Its right down there with graphics on my terms of things I just go 'shrug' about. Kind of especially in the case of DA I where so much of the content really is optional. Especially now that they have patched the game.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 21, 2017 22:30:10 GMT
I did not say that BioWare can do no wrong in fact I made the exact opposite argument. BioWare can, and has, and will probably continue to do a lot wrong. In terms of gameplay/ story/ setting/ and character. And furthermore in the very same post you say I said that BioWare can do no wrong you also acknowledge that I said the exact opposite in my argument. And this is what has gotten really frustrating about debating with you. You have constantly strawmanned and ad homminened your way to victory. Now don't get me wrong I have enjoyed this argument and this debate, but its getting more and more frustrating when you are making claims about what I am arguing that just aren't true and made up, and then attacking those claims as if I made them in the first place. My argument is, once again, BioWare can do wrong, BioWare has done wrong, but BioWare has done enough right where I trust them to execute their craft. AND I trust them to excercise their craft because they seem to almost be psychicaly aware of your arguments (and others) and are going to address them in the game. This is examples of good writing, not bad. Maybe you should point out where you think I've strawmanned. As for ad hominems I never attacked you personally. My replies had an edge of mockery for the arguments and genuine disbelief about them because it really didn't click how you could be saying some of that until I read your last post. Sorry if you think I've misrepresented you but in my view your post did seem to genuinely deny any fault in BioWare's writing: You later bring up the ME3 ending and Liara but almost as an afterthought. And if you still hold the above to be true despite the endings, then how was what I said incorrect except in the most technical, literal sense? BioWare has not always been solid in story writing and the ME3 fiasco clearly has broken a the "trust and expectation" of a great many number of its fans. That you gloss over this must mean you genuinely don't see it or you just ignore it. Look, this is opinion at this point. It's fine if you still have faith in BioWare in all aspects of their writing. But you'll forgive me for saying, you appear to base this very much on the surface of things only. I don't see how you can claim the writers have awareness and the ability to properly respond to our concerns given how they've responded in the past, at least in ME. I don't know DA; I know people have beef but I don't know details on what it is or how it was handled. But look at the Extended Cut. "How did the squadmates on the ground teleport to the Normandy?" Now the Normandy just swoops in past the Reaper defenses in full view of Harbinger and picks them up. Does that seem like an appropriate response to you? Or the stupid Gilligan's Planet. The ship still crashes but then flies away again. Why? Why not just get rid of it, since you removed the reason for it in the first place? Ignoring the other times they don't respond or are flat out unwilling to acknowledge their mistakes (i.e "artistic integrity") even when they try to address our concerns, they don't do it right. It seems they're always missing something, usually rather obvious that gets in the way of where they want to go. And rather than tweak their plan or stop and actually address it they just barge through and expect people to just be cool with it. Anyway, my point was not to offend you, my point was that if you genuinely don't see or don't care about these problems at this level, we're not really going to agree on much for narrative criticism.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2017 22:44:21 GMT
I did not say that BioWare can do no wrong in fact I made the exact opposite argument. BioWare can, and has, and will probably continue to do a lot wrong. In terms of gameplay/ story/ setting/ and character. And furthermore in the very same post you say I said that BioWare can do no wrong you also acknowledge that I said the exact opposite in my argument. And this is what has gotten really frustrating about debating with you. You have constantly strawmanned and ad homminened your way to victory. Now don't get me wrong I have enjoyed this argument and this debate, but its getting more and more frustrating when you are making claims about what I am arguing that just aren't true and made up, and then attacking those claims as if I made them in the first place. My argument is, once again, BioWare can do wrong, BioWare has done wrong, but BioWare has done enough right where I trust them to execute their craft. AND I trust them to excercise their craft because they seem to almost be psychicaly aware of your arguments (and others) and are going to address them in the game. This is examples of good writing, not bad. Maybe you should point out where you think I've strawmanned. As for ad hominems I never attacked you personally. My replies had an edge of mockery for the arguments and genuine disbelief about them because it really didn't click how you could be saying some of that until I read your last post. Sorry if you think I've misrepresented you but in my view your post did seem to genuinely deny any fault in BioWare's writing: You later bring up the ME3 ending and Liara but almost as an afterthought. And if you still hold the above to be true despite the endings, then how was what I said incorrect except in the most technical, literal sense? BioWare has not always been solid in story writing and the ME3 fiasco clearly has broken a the "trust and expectation" of a great many number of its fans. That you gloss over this must mean you genuinely don't see it or you just ignore it. Look, this is opinion at this point. It's fine if you still have faith in BioWare in all aspects of their writing. But you'll forgive me for saying, you appear to base this very much on the surface of things only. I don't see how you can claim the writers have awareness and the ability to properly respond to our concerns given how they've responded in the past, at least in ME. I don't know DA; I know people have beef but I don't know details on what it is or how it was handled. But look at the Extended Cut. "How did the squadmates on the ground teleport to the Normandy?" Now the Normandy just swoops in past the Reaper defenses in full view of Harbinger and picks them up. Does that seem like an appropriate response to you? Or the stupid Gilligan's Planet. The ship still crashes but then flies away again. Why? Why not just get rid of it, since you removed the reason for it in the first place? Ignoring the other times they don't respond or are flat out unwilling to acknowledge their mistakes (i.e "artistic integrity") even when they try to address our concerns, they don't do it right. It seems they're always missing something, usually rather obvious that gets in the way of where they want to go. And rather than tweak their plan or stop and actually address it they just barge through and expect people to just be cool with it. Anyway, my point was not to offend you, my point was that if you genuinely don't see or don't care about these problems at this level, we're not really going to agree on much for narrative criticism. Ok the solidness of BioWare was a bit of a language error on my part. Oops. But, the comments about the errors in Mass Effects writing was not an after thought. In point of fact I am very much still aware of the endings and the endings are making me nervous. So much so that when I made my post predicting how Andromeda will do in my thread I started for people to predict how the ending will do...I listed it as a concern I had. The ending to Mass Effect 3 and its aftermath is something I am reticient enough about that I do not think the game will be a Tier 1 game for me. At least yet. BioWare, and specifically Mac Walters, has to regain my trust in that specific regard. But at this point it is kind of a nebulous concern that is out there and I have nothing yet to point to in the writing and say "AH HA, that sucks". However, in spit of the endings, inspite of the Extented Cut, and inspite of my feelings I am still expecting a pretty good game from them in terms of story and character. And from what I have seen, personally, BioWare is off to a good start rebuilding those bridges because for me I think BioWare is engaging in good writing...from the little tidbits of the story we have seen so far...and to me the Anromeda Iniative seems like it is logical...from a certain pont of view. (IE Jien Garson who is living in the Mass Effect universe). And also, in spite of the endings, I still thought Mass Effect 3 was a very good game. From a gameplay, story, and character standpoint, though not the best. And the last game BioWare released, Inquisition, I thought was very solid in its character and story execution. More then then ME 3 so their quality seems to be on the upward tick. I mean maybe BioWare will surprise me and release a Tier 1 game? Maybe BioWare will shock the hell out of me and it will knock off Inquisition as my favorite game of all time? And maybe the game will suck? But for now, things seem to be off to a fairly good start. And, again they are putting far more effort into creating logical and lore consistant reason/ ability to get to Andromeda, then I would in their shoes, considering how badly the ending of ME 3 ruined the Milky Way as a setting.
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Post by keiji on Jan 21, 2017 23:57:44 GMT
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Post by unofficialgreycolor on Jan 22, 2017 0:26:05 GMT
I would really love to see modding tools for MEA, so even if they will do something that many players dislikes, at least modders would be able to fix/improve it. But Frostbite is not that mod friendly.. Amen.
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Post by DalishRanger on Jan 22, 2017 0:31:41 GMT
Eh, DAI had a handful of decent mods, and not all of them were texture changes. I don't know if we'll get anything as extensive as the Origins and NWN days or anything Bethesda like where they had dedicated modding tools that shipped with the game, but if modders could crack DAI's Frostbite in a short amount of time, I don't see why they couldn't with MEA.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 22, 2017 0:53:26 GMT
Lol, DAI would be almost perfect game to me if not for that boring, MMO style fetch quests, and uninteresting, almost empty hubs, with no interesting side quests or characters in it (ME1, ME2, DAO and even DA2 had some), other than that I loved the game, well maybe main story with ''Coryfagus'' was lame too, but at least it has some depth in it. Also most companions were good and with cool stories, I loved Blackwall story in all, also Solas was cool and I liked Josephine. So.. my point is that if MEA will improve in those aspects at least a little, then it will be GOTY for me for sure E: Respawning enemies every corner in DAI was really pain in the bu** I would really love to see modding tools for MEA, so even if they will do something that many players dislikes, at least modders would be able to fix/improve it. But Frostbite is not that mod friendly.. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Yeah... DA:I has its good side and is also filled with poor design decisions like the insufferable fetch quests, an empty Val Royeaux, dumbed down combat, PC input controls.....). It also had it's laughable side, like respawning in the middle of a wolf pack.
If you think about it, the ME:A pirate outpost (with Kelly Sloane) is more alive than the capital Val Royeaux... so there is hope.
MOD tools are very welcome. They might allow me to tone down the pyrotechnics when in combat.
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