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Post by vonuber on Feb 7, 2017 13:18:41 GMT
Unfortunately due to what Bioware decided the reapers are, flying them into the sun is wiping out thousands of races - you'd be committing galactic genocide.
Ho hum. Might as well go destroy in that case.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2017 14:08:52 GMT
Unfortunately due to what Bioware decided the reapers are, flying them into the sun is wiping out thousands of races - you'd be committing galactic genocide. Ho hum. Might as well go destroy in that case. "You - Whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now they can rest in peace."Preserved jams are not people.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Feb 7, 2017 20:06:42 GMT
Yes it was about Shepard dying. people were expecting him to swoop in and save the day but they weren't expecting him to die. Look, just repeating over and over what you said before doesn't magically make it so, and it's everything but a strong argument. Let me phrase it this way: Are you saying that it's perfectly fine that (in the original ending) no matter which of the three endings you picked, you got virtually three identical endings with only a slight variation in colour, and that people shouldn't have a problem with that? Are you saying that "we're machines who destroy you, so you won't make machines who destroy you" is an example of perfect logic and doesn't involve any maddeningly circular reasoning at all, and people should be perfectly fine with this? Are you saying you couldn't possibly, not even for one second, imagine these things actually bothered fans of the franchise?
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Post by leonick on Feb 8, 2017 9:18:27 GMT
Are you saying that "we're machines who destroy you, so you won't make machines who destroy you" is an example of perfect logic and doesn't involve any maddeningly circular reasoning at all, and people should be perfectly fine with this? To be fair, it's more like "We're machines who destroy you, so you won't make machines that destroy everyone and everything". They only destroy civilizations that are technologically advanced enough to prevent the creation of synthetics that are feared will destroy all organic life. Obviously still isn't the best of plans (why not just monitor the galaxy and destroy any synthetics that get out of hand) and it doesn't change the endings, but still, worthwhile distinction I think.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 9:32:22 GMT
Yes it was about Shepard dying. people were expecting him to swoop in and save the day but they weren't expecting him to die. Look, just repeating over and over what you said before doesn't magically make it so, and it's everything but a strong argument. Let me phrase it this way: Are you saying that it's perfectly fine that (in the original ending) no matter which of the three endings you picked, you got virtually three identical endings with only a slight variation in colour, and that people shouldn't have a problem with that? Are you saying that "we're machines who destroy you, so you won't make machines who destroy you" is an example of perfect logic and doesn't involve any maddeningly circular reasoning at all, and people should be perfectly fine with this? Are you saying you couldn't possibly, not even for one second, imagine these things actually bothered fans of the franchise? What I am saying is, if someone can come up with a valid, clear cut reason as to why the ending was bad and we should all agree because their evidence is infallible, then I will agree. However using the reason "The ending is bad cos i didnt get it" isnt a reason. It wasnt multiple endings for the last time. it was three paths to one ending. If the author meant for there to be one definitive ending, then no you shouldnt have a problem with that. Again, the whole point of the ending was to drive home the point that Shepard was dead and not coming back! The reason I keep saying it is because people dont seem to "get it". ITS SCIENCE FICTION IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE FUCKING LOGICAL!!!! if it was logical we would never have left Earth because theres nothing on Mars, faster than light travel is impossible for a human, and theres no such god damn thing as aliens. Its a video game. What I gathered from the ending was that all primitive life was wiped out to try and make new more intelligent life possible. humans wages wars against each other, starvation, pretty much the stuff you see today. Basically we weren't worthy of being left alive because we were too stupid. (Again I might be way off on this but thats what I got fron it) Look at the Quarians. invented an AI race, then when it started asking questions, they tried to wipe them out! The point I suppose, of en ending like that is you can interperate it any way you want. I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 8, 2017 10:36:05 GMT
Replaying ME3 and boy are the controls wonky compared to today's standards. I will say they were great for their time, but I didn't realize how far we've come in game play the last few years. I hope ME Andromeda plays nothing like the previous games in terms of combat, and I have faith they wont. But still a little skeptical. The sprint button is my biggest gripe with it being assigned to "x" (ps3) instead of the analog L3 like most games. You cannot sprint and have control of the camera. The aiming and movement feels so wonky and using "x" for sprinting, taking cover, rolling, etc is rough.
This is probably my biggest concern (which really isn't that big) before watching some previews and listening to people's feedback who have played it. Biggest hope is that it plays like a third person Destiny where is its smooth, agile, and precise. And the abilities are allocated appropriately.
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Post by steamshipman on Feb 8, 2017 10:53:36 GMT
Ho hum. Might as well go destroy in that case. Since the ending called 'control' surely there are workarounds for your worries. Yes it was about Shepard dying. people were expecting him to swoop in and save the day but they weren't expecting him to die. Even though it was heavily hinted at. Sure huge part of playerbase expected that, but certainly not a majority. I don't get why you insist on it with such fixation. Judging by discussions I have read many wanted this but were fully aware that this is just wishful thinking. Everybody live long and happy is a weak ending in a sense. What kind of threat reapers are if the man who spend more time and efforts fighting them than anyone else ended up victorious and unscathed? Such ending would diminish the scale and significance of the whole affair. So people were ready for not so happy ending, they aren't blind. Shepard dying wasn't a problem. The problem was that deus ex machina only it wasn't ‘god from the machinery’. It was 'facepalm stupidity from the machinery' that screwed everything. Reapers shot down some random kodiak and it crushed right on Shepard's head during final assault would be much better and acceptable 'bitter' ending for me than what we have got. At least I can't deny that reality can be harsh and has no mercy and, you know, follows established rules. As a bonus, 'Artistic integrity' would actually become somewhat relevant excuse for me in that case. So no, Shepard dying isn't the reason for endings outcry. That is not how it works. It only possible to make such conclusion if you read and watched only bad science fiction. Science fiction establishes rules with some fictional assumptions. If it doesn't follow own rules and change said assumptions on the whim of creator it breaks narration and basically becomes broken.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 8, 2017 11:20:06 GMT
As opposed to the villagers in W3 who all looked alike and walked around in circles. The open world bullshit of Witcher 3 is easily the worst part of the game. Seriously? Okay, I'll give you the fact NPCs looked similar. But name me a game that has no similar looking NPCs. Every game out there has NPCs that look like they can be twins. But the walking in circles, never seen it happen. Witcher had travling merchants and individuals who seemed as though they had a life to live. Not standing in a spot. Val royeaux was a joke of a city. It was better reading about it than actually experiencing it. Edit: BTW before you call me a witcher finatic like the guy up top, I'd like you to know I only have played Witcher 3. Been with DA since the beginning. As far as which game I think is better, hands down I'd go with witcher 3. I know all of this is from a month ago, but the guy who said the open world part of W3 must be on crack. It was the first game since Red Dead Redemption that actually did a better job in taking what could have been a vastly boring and empty huge open world and making it fun just to ride around and explore. You can still play without following any certain path and just come across interesting random events and quests. Witcher 3 did a better job adding small stories to everything....One thing I am glad to see Mass Effect Andromeda do. I wouldn't care if I have similar NPC characters as long as the atmosphere of the game is rich with little small things to do while consistently exploring. You could see the amount of care and detail from CD project red team. I'm intrigued by MEA and joined the forums because I think this game will be unlike the others in many ways. Many people will gripe about it not being straight forward and story focused, but I hope it sticks to it's theme of exploration and discovery while fighting it out in the wild west of Andromeda.
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Post by simsimillia on Feb 8, 2017 11:31:14 GMT
Look, just repeating over and over what you said before doesn't magically make it so, and it's everything but a strong argument. Let me phrase it this way: Are you saying that it's perfectly fine that (in the original ending) no matter which of the three endings you picked, you got virtually three identical endings with only a slight variation in colour, and that people shouldn't have a problem with that? Are you saying that "we're machines who destroy you, so you won't make machines who destroy you" is an example of perfect logic and doesn't involve any maddeningly circular reasoning at all, and people should be perfectly fine with this? Are you saying you couldn't possibly, not even for one second, imagine these things actually bothered fans of the franchise? What I am saying is, if someone can come up with a valid, clear cut reason as to why the ending was bad and we should all agree because their evidence is infallible, then I will agree. However using the reason "The ending is bad cos i didnt get it" isnt a reason. It wasnt multiple endings for the last time. it was three paths to one ending. If the author meant for there to be one definitive ending, then no you shouldnt have a problem with that. Again, the whole point of the ending was to drive home the point that Shepard was dead and not coming back! The reason I keep saying it is because people dont seem to "get it". ITS SCIENCE FICTION IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE FUCKING LOGICAL!!!! if it was logical we would never have left Earth because theres nothing on Mars, faster than light travel is impossible for a human, and theres no such god damn thing as aliens. Its a video game. What I gathered from the ending was that all primitive life was wiped out to try and make new more intelligent life possible. humans wages wars against each other, starvation, pretty much the stuff you see today. Basically we weren't worthy of being left alive because we were too stupid. (Again I might be way off on this but thats what I got fron it) Look at the Quarians. invented an AI race, then when it started asking questions, they tried to wipe them out! The point I suppose, of en ending like that is you can interperate it any way you want. I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes. Reasons why I think the ending was bad and other failings of the Mass Effect Trilogy: The Message: "Thanks for playing, please buy all the DLC"
Only a minor thing, but the textbox message at the end of the game, that essentially said what I already wrote above was adding insult to injury. Tonal Shift:
We set out to destroy the Reapers, we fight our way onto the Citadel and have the confrontation with TIM, we struggle to reach the controls, Shepard is dying and then...divine intervention? A conversation with a child? The scene would've been better if the Citadel AI had not had the appearance of the child we were supposed to be so sad about earlier in the Trilogy. Making it look like Vigil, Harbinger or even just differentiating appearance between your Squadmates would've been a lot better. At least for me, the moment Shepard was lifted up, I was taken out of the experience, immersion completely broken for me. It's like watching Star Wars, but instead of the Death Star exploding you get the ending of Space Odyssey (though that's giving too much Credit to ME3), with way to little preparation for that. In the final ten minutes, Mass Effect 3 forgets that it is a Space Opera. Explaining the Reapers
Explaining the Reapers may be one of the biggest failures of Mass Effect 3. Learning so much about the Reapers completely trivialized them as a threat. The conversation you have with Souverign in Mass Effect still gives me the chills and we shouldn't have learned anything more about the Reapers beyond that and what we learned in Mass Effect 2. The Reapers were degraded from Space Cthullu Machine Gods to a just another species of robots doing what they were supposed to do. The Reapers didn't need reason, because what they did was so far from a mortals understanding that the motivation for their actions was irrelevant, only the actions themselves. I always saw the Reapers just as the catalyst for the adventure, what we did along the way to stop them was what was really important and interesting. The Crucible
First off, it is extremely convenient that we just so happen to find the plans for a supposed anti-Reaper super weapon mere hours after the Reapers attack earth. Aquiring the plans for the Crucible should've been the big objective of Mass Effect 2, making the game more relevant in the trilogy and avoiding the "Deus Ex Machina" moment at the beginning of ME3...oh well, I know writer changes and all that, but still. Synthesis
While Destroy and Control seem like reasonable options, after all, we are kinda sitting at the Reaper control board, Synthesis is just fucking stupid. A thing I always liked about Mass Effect is, that it is a Science Fiction Space Opera with a lot of insensible stuff. However, pretty much all the insensible stuff comes from the addition of one thing: Element Zero. Biotics, Space Travel, Weapons...everything is done with the help of this little magical substance which allows the manipulation of mass. Now comes along the Synthesis ending and introduces something that makes no sense even in the context of the universe. The whole of Priority: Earth
Mass Effect 2 had a really good ending and a great part of that was that the Suicide Run was just a really, really fun mission. Priority Earth is nowhere near as fun. It struggles from pacing issues. The whole part where you talk to all the people should've been at the very start before you make the jump to Earth (and what the hell is that turret section) and I think many people, me included hoped that there would be somehow a strategy discussion with Shepard, Hackett and others where we get to make decisions or at least suggestions who should do what, with our choice reflecting how well it goes (basically like ME2 just on a bigger scale). That was just a missed opportunity.
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Post by armass81 on Feb 8, 2017 13:04:35 GMT
"ITS SCIENCE FICTION IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE FUCKING LOGICAL!!!! if it was logical we would never have left Earth because theres nothing on Mars, faster than light travel is impossible for a human, and theres no such god damn thing as aliens. Its a video game."
K i have to point out a few things, since given comments like these you probably havent followed science news or developments.
Theres likely a lot of intresting things on Mars, thats why we have rovers there. Doesnt have to be alien ruins to get scientists intrested.
Concerning FTL, it might be impossible, or there might be a loop hole(wormholes, warp drive etc), we have to see going into the future. In any case travelling to the stars is far from impossible, given time and effort, can be done with sub light also.
And there likely are aliens out there, it be very strange if there werent considering theres building blocks of life all over the universe and its huge.Thats the current popular scientific opinion after all and i have to concur.
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Post by Reznore on Feb 8, 2017 13:11:57 GMT
ME3 endings were terribad. I knew beforehand it was supposed to be bad, because the whole thing had been leaked. But I thought "Bunch of whiners, can't be that bad, I bet Shepard die or whatever."
If you had told me before the release of ME3, one of the last scene of the trilogy would be The Normandy crashing in some kind of paradise island , with some strangely upbeat music, and Joker would be holding EDI turned into sexbot , and both would be glowing green because somehow they got Shepard DNA...
It was so seriously bad, I was in total disbelief and my first thoughts were "well I installed the game wrong somehow , some scenes got mixed up .It has to be a technical issue..."
But anyway let's be fair ,failings can happen, the main issue was Bioware PR going 'no failing , you don't understand mah artistic creation, pffff" That was really insulting. I will say this , Bioware reputation at being great at storytelling is overblown. I do think they work hard , have some talented people , have some great moments here and there...but they haven't been writing a really good plot for a long time imho.
Anyway I'm skeptical because I always preferred DA , I vastly prefer Dragon Age companions, the overall tone etc...And when you're not into companions in a Bioware game , it kind of sucks. I did not enjoy ME Citadel all that much for example.There's been a lot of rolling my eyes during the trilogy.And I doubt the plot will come to save the day in MEA.
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 8, 2017 13:41:53 GMT
I love it when people post stuff and then bend it to fit their narrative. I didn't "bend" anything, I gave you a bunch of literal quotes. If you'd pay attention, you'd see they're all blatant marketing lies. They're literally saying we wouldn't get an ABC ending. he still didnt say anywhere in that block of text that your choices were going to affect the ending. Yeah, at this point I have to wonder whether you're being intellectually dishonest, or you simply lack reading comprehension. If I'm trying to be nice, I'm guessing it must be the latter, because not only can you not see what is literally being said, you're also continuously arguing against points that I'm not making, case in point: He was spelling out what was going to happen. You would get three paths but they would all lead to the same place. SHEPARS DIES. Spelled out in big letters. The story arc ENDS with this game. Again, why bring this up? No one said it wasn't okay for the story arc to end. The problem was the way in which it ended; it did not make sense. I've already told you that some writers dont explain the ending and they leave it down to you the viewer/reader. Ian.M. Banks is a classic sci fi writer who does this. The TV series Lost did this, the ending of The Sopranos. Why is Mass Effect recieved with such hate because they dont spell everything out for you. Make up your own mind. create your own story. And again. You don't have to explain the value of an open or interpretable ending to me. No one said that was the problem. Let me make this clear to you again; 1. You trivialised the ending outrage by saying people just hated the ending because Shepard died. 2. I protested that by listing the major complaints about the ending at that time. I didn't even say I agreed with all of them! And sure, for some people the fact that Shepard died, or that there was no "uplifting" ending was some part of it. But it was not the major reason for the outrage, not by a long shot. You know, as far as I'm concerned you can even say the ending was the best ever. I don't mind an opinion. What I do mind is people trivialising facts. Saying people "were just mad because Shepard died" does absolutely no justice to the complaints people had at the time, regardless of whether I agreed with those complaints. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
That's why I refuse to get hyped for ME:A. Why I will wait until after launch to make a buy/nobuy decision. I also believe it is the reason why Bio has said little because internally, they know they marketed BS with ME3 and DA:I and fans call them out on it.
I'll give the studio points for restraining the marketing BS for this game.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 14:58:10 GMT
Reasons why I think the ending was bad and other failings of the Mass Effect Trilogy: The Message: "Thanks for playing, please buy all the DLC"
Only a minor thing, but the textbox message at the end of the game, that essentially said what I already wrote above was adding insult to injury. Tonal Shift:
We set out to destroy the Reapers, we fight our way onto the Citadel and have the confrontation with TIM, we struggle to reach the controls, Shepard is dying and then...divine intervention? A conversation with a child? The scene would've been better if the Citadel AI had not had the appearance of the child we were supposed to be so sad about earlier in the Trilogy. Making it look like Vigil, Harbinger or even just differentiating appearance between your Squadmates would've been a lot better. At least for me, the moment Shepard was lifted up, I was taken out of the experience, immersion completely broken for me. It's like watching Star Wars, but instead of the Death Star exploding you get the ending of Space Odyssey (though that's giving too much Credit to ME3), with way to little preparation for that. In the final ten minutes, Mass Effect 3 forgets that it is a Space Opera. Explaining the Reapers
Explaining the Reapers may be one of the biggest failures of Mass Effect 3. Learning so much about the Reapers completely trivialized them as a threat. The conversation you have with Souverign in Mass Effect still gives me the chills and we shouldn't have learned anything more about the Reapers beyond that and what we learned in Mass Effect 2. The Reapers were degraded from Space Cthullu Machine Gods to a just another species of robots doing what they were supposed to do. The Reapers didn't need reason, because what they did was so far from a mortals understanding that the motivation for their actions was irrelevant, only the actions themselves. I always saw the Reapers just as the catalyst for the adventure, what we did along the way to stop them was what was really important and interesting. The Crucible
First off, it is extremely convenient that we just so happen to find the plans for a supposed anti-Reaper super weapon mere hours after the Reapers attack earth. Aquiring the plans for the Crucible should've been the big objective of Mass Effect 2, making the game more relevant in the trilogy and avoiding the "Deus Ex Machina" moment at the beginning of ME3...oh well, I know writer changes and all that, but still. Synthesis
While Destroy and Control seem like reasonable options, after all, we are kinda sitting at the Reaper control board, Synthesis is just fucking stupid. A thing I always liked about Mass Effect is, that it is a Science Fiction Space Opera with a lot of insensible stuff. However, pretty much all the insensible stuff comes from the addition of one thing: Element Zero. Biotics, Space Travel, Weapons...everything is done with the help of this little magical substance which allows the manipulation of mass. Now comes along the Synthesis ending and introduces something that makes no sense even in the context of the universe. The whole of Priority: Earth
Mass Effect 2 had a really good ending and a great part of that was that the Suicide Run was just a really, really fun mission. Priority Earth is nowhere near as fun. It struggles from pacing issues. The whole part where you talk to all the people should've been at the very start before you make the jump to Earth (and what the hell is that turret section) and I think many people, me included hoped that there would be somehow a strategy discussion with Shepard, Hackett and others where we get to make decisions or at least suggestions who should do what, with our choice reflecting how well it goes (basically like ME2 just on a bigger scale). That was just a missed opportunity. About tonal shift: I'm sorry but the fact that your immersion was broken was NOT a valid reason. Films and TV shows and even video games do this all the time and still receive high praise. So no, not a valid reason. About explaining the reapers: Again, stop looking for mystery where there doesnt need to be any. This was the fault of mass effect fans alone. Not the writers. Bad guys are never mysterious and their reasons are almost always the same. Hell bent on destruction because mummy never hugged them enough as a child. Can you think of another reason for the reapers trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy? I cant. Occasionally, you come up with an object that a bad guy/girl/group will covet because he thinks it gives him/her/them ultimate god like power. Look at the geth. There reason was self defense. Nothing elaborate or complicated or convoluted. simple self preservation. Thats why classic TV shows like Star Trek TNG kept it simple. The borg had one job. to assimilate everyone. About the Crucible Yet again, you are trying too hard to make things more complicated than they need to be. Suppose we had found the weapon in Mass effect 2 or 1. There would have been no point in a third game when you could have done it all in one go. Its bad writing. The whole game was supposed to encompass weeks and months of fighting. So I imagine if you entered back into your immersion suit, you could have said that it was more like a week until we knew about it. About the Synthesis: Again, that happens to be YOUR opinion and doesnt make it fact. About the Ending: Ok, two things wrong here, had they inserted another suicide mission people would have complained, Secondly, the reapers had already invaded. The general strategy was kill all of them and take back Earth. Simple strategy. simple goal. While I agree that the mission in Mass Effect 2 was fun, for me, so was the final mission in Mass Effect 3. Sad but fun. I dont see why people cant just accept that and move on.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 15:21:32 GMT
That's why I refuse to get hyped for ME:A. Why I will wait until after launch to make a buy/nobuy decision. I also believe it is the reason why Bio has said little because internally, they know they marketed BS with ME3 and DA:I and fans call them out on it.
I'll give the studio points for restraining the marketing BS for this game.
[/div] [/quote] True, although they could try actually telling the truth in marketing rather than either lying or not saying anything...
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 8, 2017 15:40:14 GMT
Who is stinkingfish and why is it such a fanboi?
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 15:41:05 GMT
Reasons why I think the ending was bad and other failings of the Mass Effect Trilogy: The Message: "Thanks for playing, please buy all the DLC"
Only a minor thing, but the textbox message at the end of the game, that essentially said what I already wrote above was adding insult to injury. Tonal Shift:
We set out to destroy the Reapers, we fight our way onto the Citadel and have the confrontation with TIM, we struggle to reach the controls, Shepard is dying and then...divine intervention? A conversation with a child? The scene would've been better if the Citadel AI had not had the appearance of the child we were supposed to be so sad about earlier in the Trilogy. Making it look like Vigil, Harbinger or even just differentiating appearance between your Squadmates would've been a lot better. At least for me, the moment Shepard was lifted up, I was taken out of the experience, immersion completely broken for me. It's like watching Star Wars, but instead of the Death Star exploding you get the ending of Space Odyssey (though that's giving too much Credit to ME3), with way to little preparation for that. In the final ten minutes, Mass Effect 3 forgets that it is a Space Opera. Explaining the Reapers
Explaining the Reapers may be one of the biggest failures of Mass Effect 3. Learning so much about the Reapers completely trivialized them as a threat. The conversation you have with Souverign in Mass Effect still gives me the chills and we shouldn't have learned anything more about the Reapers beyond that and what we learned in Mass Effect 2. The Reapers were degraded from Space Cthullu Machine Gods to a just another species of robots doing what they were supposed to do. The Reapers didn't need reason, because what they did was so far from a mortals understanding that the motivation for their actions was irrelevant, only the actions themselves. I always saw the Reapers just as the catalyst for the adventure, what we did along the way to stop them was what was really important and interesting. The Crucible
First off, it is extremely convenient that we just so happen to find the plans for a supposed anti-Reaper super weapon mere hours after the Reapers attack earth. Aquiring the plans for the Crucible should've been the big objective of Mass Effect 2, making the game more relevant in the trilogy and avoiding the "Deus Ex Machina" moment at the beginning of ME3...oh well, I know writer changes and all that, but still. Synthesis
While Destroy and Control seem like reasonable options, after all, we are kinda sitting at the Reaper control board, Synthesis is just fucking stupid. A thing I always liked about Mass Effect is, that it is a Science Fiction Space Opera with a lot of insensible stuff. However, pretty much all the insensible stuff comes from the addition of one thing: Element Zero. Biotics, Space Travel, Weapons...everything is done with the help of this little magical substance which allows the manipulation of mass. Now comes along the Synthesis ending and introduces something that makes no sense even in the context of the universe. The whole of Priority: Earth
Mass Effect 2 had a really good ending and a great part of that was that the Suicide Run was just a really, really fun mission. Priority Earth is nowhere near as fun. It struggles from pacing issues. The whole part where you talk to all the people should've been at the very start before you make the jump to Earth (and what the hell is that turret section) and I think many people, me included hoped that there would be somehow a strategy discussion with Shepard, Hackett and others where we get to make decisions or at least suggestions who should do what, with our choice reflecting how well it goes (basically like ME2 just on a bigger scale). That was just a missed opportunity. About tonal shift: I'm sorry but the fact that your immersion was broken was NOT a valid reason. Films and TV shows and even video games do this all the time and still receive high praise. So no, not a valid reason. About explaining the reapers: Again, stop looking for mystery where there doesnt need to be any. This was the fault of mass effect fans alone. Not the writers. Bad guys are never mysterious and their reasons are almost always the same. Hell bent on destruction because mummy never hugged them enough as a child. Can you think of another reason for the reapers trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy? I cant. Occasionally, you come up with an object that a bad guy/girl/group will covet because he thinks it gives him/her/them ultimate god like power. Look at the geth. There reason was self defense. Nothing elaborate or complicated or convoluted. simple self preservation. Thats why classic TV shows like Star Trek TNG kept it simple. The borg had one job. to assimilate everyone. About the Crucible Yet again, you are trying too hard to make things more complicated than they need to be. Suppose we had found the weapon in Mass effect 2 or 1. There would have been no point in a third game when you could have done it all in one go. Its bad writing. The whole game was supposed to encompass weeks and months of fighting. So I imagine if you entered back into your immersion suit, you could have said that it was more like a week until we knew about it. About the Synthesis: Again, that happens to be YOUR opinion and doesnt make it fact. About the Ending: Ok, two things wrong here, had they inserted another suicide mission people would have complained, Secondly, the reapers had already invaded. The general strategy was kill all of them and take back Earth. Simple strategy. simple goal. While I agree that the mission in Mass Effect 2 was fun, for me, so was the final mission in Mass Effect 3. Sad but fun. I dont see why people cant just accept that and move on. 1) Citation needed. Tonal shifts, to my experience, typically cause a great deal of outcry. 2) If they couldn't come up with a good reason, they shouldn't have given one at all. Aliens are supposed to be ALIEN, no less so for being machines. Who cares why the fire burns, just don't burn with it! 3) If we found the plans to the ginormous magic space wand that would stop the Reapers, we could have devoted the entirety of ME3 towards it. Rather than be stuck with such nonsense as "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain" or "organic energy" 4) Synthesis being stupid is as close to a fact as any opinion can possibly become. 5) Bioware should have delayed it's suicide mission to ME3, and devoted ME2 to actually finding a way to stop the Reapers rather than spinning our wheels depopulating the Terminus system of mercs.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 16:41:06 GMT
1) Citation needed. Tonal shifts, to my experience, typically cause a great deal of outcry. 2) If they couldn't come up with a good reason, they shouldn't have given one at all. Aliens are supposed to be ALIEN, no less so for being machines. Who cares why the fire burns, just don't burn with it! 3) If we found the plans to the ginormous magic space wand that would stop the Reapers, we could have devoted the entirety of ME3 towards it. Rather than be stuck with such nonsense as "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain" or "organic energy" 4) Synthesis being stupid is as close to a fact as any opinion can possibly become. 5) Bioware should have delayed it's suicide mission to ME3, and devoted ME2 to actually finding a way to stop the Reapers rather than spinning our wheels depopulating the Terminus system of mercs. I want you to do me a favour. Since you think Bioware writers are all shit at their job, I want you to write your idea of the ideal antagonist. You can come up with anything you want. the only rules are: You cannot plagiarise someone else's work. (that means no copying other ideas and passing them off as your own). It has to fit within the Mass Effect universe.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 16:45:32 GMT
1) Citation needed. Tonal shifts, to my experience, typically cause a great deal of outcry. 2) If they couldn't come up with a good reason, they shouldn't have given one at all. Aliens are supposed to be ALIEN, no less so for being machines. Who cares why the fire burns, just don't burn with it! 3) If we found the plans to the ginormous magic space wand that would stop the Reapers, we could have devoted the entirety of ME3 towards it. Rather than be stuck with such nonsense as "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain" or "organic energy" 4) Synthesis being stupid is as close to a fact as any opinion can possibly become. 5) Bioware should have delayed it's suicide mission to ME3, and devoted ME2 to actually finding a way to stop the Reapers rather than spinning our wheels depopulating the Terminus system of mercs. I want you to do me a favour. Since you think Bioware writers are all shit at their job, I want you to write your idea of the ideal antagonist. You can come up with anything you want. the only rule is that it has to fit within the Mass Effect universe. Appeal to Accomplishment
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 8, 2017 16:50:13 GMT
Concerning the "tonal shift," did you folks actually read the Catalyst as a deity, or anything like a deity? I never knew if that "divine intervention" meme was meant to be taken seriously or if it was a sort of placeholder for a less-well-defined concept. It's maybe more accurate to say that Shepard's becoming a deity there-- above the actions of mere mortals, passing judgement, and so forth.
It's impossible to know now if leaving the Reapers unexplained would have actually worked. I suspect that would have been seen as a lame cop-out. Cthulhu-style mystery doesn't really work in SF, which is all about explaining the mysteries. I'm not convinced it works all that well in fantasy anymore, actually. Still, it may have been the best option available, given the incoherence of the Reaper behavior established in ME1, which ME2 only helped a little.
A couple of technicalities: the Crucible plans aren't discovered hours after the Reaper attack; that's just when Shepard finds out that the Alliance has them. Still hella convenient, but let's be accurate. And Synthesis, while stupid, isn't unprecedentedly stupid. For instance, Star Trek:TMP builds up to something like a Synthesis. Though "only a little worse than ST:TMP" isn't exactly praise for ME3.
I'm not quite clear why Priority:Earth gets grief but the final sequence of ME1 does not. They're structurally just about identical, except that one ends with horde mode and the other ends in a boss fight.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 16:50:16 GMT
5) Bioware should have delayed it's suicide mission to ME3, and devoted ME2 to actually finding a way to stop the Reapers rather than spinning our wheels depopulating the Terminus system of mercs. They can still have the suicide mission in ME2 the way its setup. If anything have a dlc or side mission that involves finding the plans to the device. Having a suicide mission in ME3 would be on a much larger scale that not only involve all squadmate's, but the assets that Shepard gathered during the game as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 16:54:15 GMT
Truthfully, the most important thing ME2 could have done in its main plot was the search for the Crucible, instead of presenting it in a miraculous fashion in three minutes of the last game. The Collectors could have been searching for it too. The harvesting objective could have been left to ME3 when you're would actually see them turning people into paste. Make the Reapers a little more intelligent than ("We believed the concept has been eradicated. Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized"). If I had a phone booth close by, I would go back in time and rewrite these games, people. You definitely deserved better. No synthetics vs organics bullshit, no Leviathans origins. There would be dark energy involved, there would be real cosmic horror, no star brat, no Cerberus as main antagonists. It would be glorious!!
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 16:58:13 GMT
I want you to do me a favour. Since you think Bioware writers are all shit at their job, I want you to write your idea of the ideal antagonist. You can come up with anything you want. the only rule is that it has to fit within the Mass Effect universe. Appeal to AccomplishmentOh so wikipedia was your go-to source on that one instead of stepping up to the challenge? Interesting. It's not a fallacy since what I was trying to show you was how hard writing a story, let alone an interesting one, actually is. But if you want to remain part of the peanut gallery then by all means... The other reason its not a fallacy is people who have no credentials have no right to criticise someone for doing what they think is a bad job. How can someone who isnt even a writer and has had nothing published possibly criticise someone who does write? It's ludicrous. If you're going to put forward a problem, don't do it without putting forward a better alternative. Its called showing people how its done.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 17:00:56 GMT
Hmmm.
I would've had the main mission for ME2 getting to darkspace and the collectors as a big side mission. For that to happen, a few things would have to change in ME1
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 8, 2017 17:05:06 GMT
5) Bioware should have delayed it's suicide mission to ME3, and devoted ME2 to actually finding a way to stop the Reapers rather than spinning our wheels depopulating the Terminus system of mercs. They can still have the suicide mission in ME2 the way its setup. If anything have a dlc or side mission that involves finding the plans to the device. Having a suicide mission in ME3 would be on a much larger scale that not only involve all squadmate's, but the assets that Shepard gathered during the game as well. The problem with doing an SM in the middle of the trilogy is that it passes costs on to the next game, especially when combined with Bio's design principle that different choices only give you different content, never less content. Bio had to burn a lot of zots to handle alternatives for everyone who might have died during the SM. Bio considered doing an ME3 endgame similar to what you suggest, according to the leaks. They just couldn't afford to do it.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 17:09:53 GMT
It's impossible to know now if leaving the Reapers unexplained would have actually worked. I suspect that would have been seen as a lame cop-out. Cthulhu-style mystery doesn't really work in SF, which is all about explaining the mysteries. I'm not convinced it works all that well in fantasy anymore, actually. Still, it may have been the best option available, given the incoherence of the Reaper behavior established in ME1, which ME2 only helped a little. There's actually a number of sf stories that deal with weird, incomprehensible aliens: John Scalzi's Old Man's War, Joe Haldeman's Forever War, Orson Scott Card's "Ender" books (the first few anyway), Alistair Reynold's "Revelation Space" series, Vernor Vinge's "Zones of Thought" books. Heck you can go back to the Lensmen books and see bizarre alien motivations...
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