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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 17:12:14 GMT
Oh so wikipedia was your go-to source on that one instead of stepping up to the challenge? Interesting. It's not a fallacy since what I was trying to show you was how hard writing a story, let alone an interesting one, actually is. But if you want to remain part of the peanut gallery then by all means... The other reason its not a fallacy is people who have no credentials have no right to criticise someone for doing what they think is a bad job. How can someone who isnt even a writer and has had nothing published possibly criticise someone who does write? It's ludicrous. If you're going to put forward a problem, don't do it without putting forward a better alternative. Its called showing people how its done. No, wikipedia simply had a succinct definition of your fallacious response. I suppose you think I can't complain about Trump because I'm not a president? Or I can't point out a meal is undercooked because I'm not a professional chef? If the emperor's not wearing any clothes, I will point out the emperor's not wearing clothes. It doesn't matter than I'm not a tailor.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 17:15:32 GMT
Oh so wikipedia was your go-to source on that one instead of stepping up to the challenge? Interesting. It's not a fallacy since what I was trying to show you was how hard writing a story, let alone an interesting one, actually is. But if you want to remain part of the peanut gallery then by all means... The other reason its not a fallacy is people who have no credentials have no right to criticise someone for doing what they think is a bad job. How can someone who isnt even a writer and has had nothing published possibly criticise someone who does write? It's ludicrous. If you're going to put forward a problem, don't do it without putting forward a better alternative. Its called showing people how its done. Opinion, not fact. Also, what you're doing now is called Argumentum ad hominem Ad Hominem
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 17:23:23 GMT
They can still have the suicide mission in ME2 the way its setup. If anything have a dlc or side mission that involves finding the plans to the device. Having a suicide mission in ME3 would be on a much larger scale that not only involve all squadmate's, but the assets that Shepard gathered during the game as well. The problem with doing an SM in the middle of the trilogy is that it passes costs on to the next game, especially when combined with Bio's design principle that different choices only give you different content, never less content. Bio had to burn a lot of zots to handle alternatives for everyone who might have died during the SM. Bio considered doing an ME3 endgame similar to what you suggest, according to the leaks. They just couldn't afford to do it. This is probably a consequence of not planning the trilogy, and just putting in choices for the sake of choices, with no thought given towards future consequences with a whole other game to go. hey didn't really consider what it would mean to have Miranda alive or dead, personal mission done or not. Or Jack, or Thane, and so on. Heck I don't think they thought about the ramifications of keeping or blowing up the Collector Base. It was less about "what would lead to a great story later on" and more about "what would look awesome RIGHT NOW?"
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 17:29:38 GMT
No, wikipedia simply had a succinct definition of your fallacious response. I suppose you think I can't complain about Trump because I'm not a president? Or I can't point out a meal is undercooked because I'm not a professional chef? If the emperor's not wearing any clothes, I will point out the emperor's not wearing clothes. It doesn't matter than I'm not a tailor. Ok let me explain something to you. Complaining when you are in the same profession (political) as the president so to speak is one thing, but when you complain without knowing the ins and outs of a particluar job is quite another. Are you a writer? I'm not but then again I dont pretend to think I am one. its a hard job. My point is deep down when we watch sports or politics or read a book we all think we could do a better job. Then reality comes along and kicks you in the ass. I'm not saying people arent allowed to have an opinion but when they start trying to pass that off as a fact or implying they could do a better job , yet when the opportunity comes along to do so and you dont.... thats called fear of embarrassing yourself. You wouldnt last 5 minutes as a writer in Bioware in the same way I wouldnt last 5 minutes as a football manager. I gave someone who thought he could write the chance to re-write the ending and nobody took me up on the offer. It's the equivalent of backseat driving. Rather than take the wheel they are happy to sit and pick faults with other peoples work.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 17:38:29 GMT
No, wikipedia simply had a succinct definition of your fallacious response. I suppose you think I can't complain about Trump because I'm not a president? Or I can't point out a meal is undercooked because I'm not a professional chef? If the emperor's not wearing any clothes, I will point out the emperor's not wearing clothes. It doesn't matter than I'm not a tailor. Ok let me explain something to you. Complaining when you are in the same profession (political) as the president so to speak is one thing, but when you complain without knowing the ins and outs of a particluar job is quite another. Are you a writer? I'm not but then again I dont pretend to think I am one. its a hard job. My point is deep down when we watch sports or politics or read a book we all think we could do a better job. Then reality comes along and kicks you in the ass. I'm not saying people arent allowed to have an opinion but when they start trying to pass that off as a fact or implying they could do a better job , yet when the opportunity comes along to do so and you dont.... thats called fear of embarrassing yourself. You wouldnt last 5 minutes as a writer in Bioware in the same way I wouldnt last 5 minutes as a football manager. I gave someone who thought he could write the chance to re-write the ending and nobody took me up on the offer. I wonder why?. I never claimed to be a writer. I am a reader, and a gamer, though. So I know the difference between good endings and bad. Could I make one myself? Eh, maybe not. I couldn't build a car myself either, or carve a chair. But if the engine won't start, or I get splinters in my *ss siting down, I'm going to call them pieces of cr*p even if I couldn't do a better job myself. At least I don't claim to be able to! I'm a consumer. I pay money for a product. That gives me the right to judge it's worth. I shouldn't have to be a writer to judge a work garbage. I've done it plenty of times. And declared others good. That's my prerogative as a consumer.
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Post by theorigcylonhybrid on Feb 8, 2017 17:47:31 GMT
This thread is getting way too personal. Guys the way to write a good story is to do what George RR martin does. You outline where you want to take the story and have vague outlines of acts. You write the ending before you write the rest of the story so you know where you want to take it. I guess the writers should have written the end of ME3 before starting ME2 if they wanted a trilogy but I guess they did it differently and made each game its own contained story so when the ending of ME3 came along, they wrote themselves into a wall. Invariable when you come across an enemy whose power is far beyond yours, you find an ancient superweapon that magically kills the entire enemy in one shot. Its like stargate when they used the ancient weapon to kill the replicators who killed the go'uld. Then things got ridiculous when they used another ancient weapon to kill all the ori simultaneously and a third ancient weapon 'the ark of truth' to convert all the followers.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 17:56:52 GMT
I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes. If you're so sure that is true, why not created a thread about that along with a poll?
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 18:07:05 GMT
I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes. If you're so sure that is true, why not created a thread about that along with a poll? I thought about it and if I thought people would be honest, I would.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 8, 2017 18:07:54 GMT
Heck you can go back to the Lensmen books and see bizarre alien motivations... True, but I'm not sure those examples provided usable guidance for ME. For instance, while we never really understand the Taurans in The Forever War, we understand them well enough to know what the war was about. Easy to do, since the war was about pretty much nothing. I don't think ME could have gotten away with that. The Reapers are a high-difficulty problem because their entire civilization is oriented around a sequence of highly-specific and irrational actions, and those actions are central to the plot.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 18:10:39 GMT
If you're so sure that is true, why not created a thread about that along with a poll? If I thought people would be honest I would. Is that what's stopping you? Or is it because you might be wrong?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 8, 2017 18:14:15 GMT
So, if we're talking about what the trilogy might have been...
I would have had the Reapers arrive at the end of ME2, start the war then. Investigating the Collectors would have ultimately been about uncovering how they were speeding the Reaper's arrival (Building a secondary arrival point for whatever Mass Relay they must have in dark space?). And closed with us finding a way to inflict a blow against them that would slow them down, but not stop them.
ME3 would have picked up several years later, well into the war, with a focus on some newly acquired intelligence on a way to defeat the Reapers. I think they should have left the Reapers mysterious at this point, or maybe draw on some parts of the dark energy idea. Either way, it would involve going to dark space and exploring some massive Reaper structure there and Harbinger would have had both a greater presence and been the main villain.
I would also fix Kai Leng. Instead of a try-hard space ninja, he would have been first a gruff pro-human squad mate replacing Jacob in ME2, written to be more of a rival relationship that can't be truly dissuaded from his attitudes, then transitioning him into a cyborg rival in the next game. That would have made him a more engaging character. Maybe he would kill the Illusive Man under indoctrination half way through ME3 and basically become Harbinger's avatar.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 18:15:18 GMT
If I thought people would be honest I would. Is that what's stopping you? Or is it because you might be wrong? Look at this thread. People cant even come up with a coherant reason why the ending is bad. "er... because red green and blue" "err because choice number 2" "Errmm because immersion" you cant trust people like that to give you an HONEST answer. They wouldnt say yes because they dont have to. They refuse to admit that on a subconcious level thats the reason. So we'll leave it there.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 8, 2017 18:16:52 GMT
I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes. If you're so sure that is true, why not created a thread about that along with a poll? In fairness to sinkingfish, haven't we already had that poll? Over the years we've had a lot of people propose alternative endings which they believe would have been superior, and it's very common to see Shepard living, being reunited with the squadmates, and so forth. And for people who think that they already have that ending in Destroy, a common request is to make Destroy happier by taking away the negative consequences. It's difficult to square "unhappiness wasn't the problem" with the proposed solution almost always being "MOAR HAPPINESS."
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 18:23:53 GMT
They wouldnt say yes because they dont have to. They refuse to admit that on a subconcious level thats the reason. So we'll leave it there. Leave it there? So that means you just made that comment....for the heck of it? You seemed so sure of yourself and now you're backing down? Ok.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 18:29:39 GMT
If you're so sure that is true, why not created a thread about that along with a poll? In fairness to sinkingfish, haven't we already had that poll? Over the years we've had a lot of people propose alternative endings which they believe would have been superior, and it's very common to see Shepard living, being reunited with the squadmates, and so forth. And for people who think that they already have that ending in Destroy, a common request is to make Destroy happier by taking away the negative consequences. It's difficult to square "unhappiness wasn't the problem" with the proposed solution almost always being "MOAR HAPPINESS." I think what we're dealing with here is infant level stupidity. You show someone why something isnt so and they stick their fingers in their ears and go "llalalalalal I'm not listening" you cant reason with that sort of stupidity. People have complained time and again about the amount of fetch quests in Dragon Age: Inquisition. so, you show them that this is a staple of RPG's and they point blank tell you its not...Am I missing something? I'll give you an example. I disliked Gaider's writing of Dorian because I felt it was too over the top. Cartwheeling rainbows and in your face all round gayness was jarring to me. How are you supposed to want to invest any time in a character like that? He may as well have stood with a rainbow flag draped over him. I mean even the late George Micheal had a shred of masculinity about him. In the same way one characters poor writing doesnt equate to a bad game, neither does your dislike of an ending equate to the same.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 8, 2017 18:37:52 GMT
They wouldnt say yes because they dont have to. They refuse to admit that on a subconcious level thats the reason. So we'll leave it there. Leave it there? So that means you just made that comment....for the heck of it? You seemed so sure of yourself and now you're backing down? Ok. No. That comment was made before I knew I was dealing with people who were all foam and no beer. To put it nicely.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2017 18:52:38 GMT
Heck you can go back to the Lensmen books and see bizarre alien motivations... True, but I'm not sure those examples provided usable guidance for ME. For instance, while we never really understand the Taurans in The Forever War, we understand them well enough to know what the war was about. Easy to do, since the war was about pretty much nothing. I don't think ME could have gotten away with that. The Reapers are a high-difficulty problem because their entire civilization is oriented around a sequence of highly-specific and irrational actions, and those actions are central to the plot. Honestly, I suspect the Reapers were inspired as much by Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers as by Cthulhu. When it's a fight for survival, particularly against a far more advanced foe, the reason is essentially academic. As Loki put it: "An ant has no quarrel with a boot" The Reapers staying mysterious would be fine as long as we could find a way to save ourselves from them that didn't suck.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 19:36:41 GMT
When it's a fight for survival, particularly against a far more advanced foe, the reason is essentially academic. As Loki put it: "An ant has no quarrel with a boot" The Reapers staying mysterious would be fine as long as we could find a way to save ourselves from them that didn't suck. This. Also, I've wondered if the end may have felt more satisfying overall if Shepard had actually defeated the reapers. What we got instead was Shepard laying there bleeding out after having opened the Citadel's arms for the Crucible to dock, and being more or less rescued by the enemy. Never mind the complete lack of sense in the notion that Shepard's presence had somehow "changed the variables" that resulted in the Catalyst deciding that their current "solution" would no longer work. Never mind that after countless eons of endless cycles of utter violence, Shepard's arrival somehow pushed a magic button that caused the Catalyst to turn the reaper's fate over to Shepard. And the Catalyst allowed Shepard to choose to destroy all of the "lives" it had been "preserving", which flies in the face of the mandate it had been given. Shepard did not defeat the reapers; their own faulty logic did. It was not a case of finding an enemy's weakness and exploiting it; the Catalyst handed the reigns to a bleeding out nearly dead Shepard on a silver platter and offered Shepard the opportunity to end the cycles. As the ending of a single game it would have been plenty unsatisfying, as the ending of a trilogy it was... well, I don't have the words.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 8, 2017 19:51:04 GMT
General comment on the last couple of pages: Skepticism, even downright dislike of aspects of the games is a legitimate view and ok to be expressed (particularly in this thread). Can we please calm down any frustrations with other posters, and not poke at them personally, these are just opinions after all. [x] stay classy, BSN.
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Post by vonuber on Feb 8, 2017 19:53:53 GMT
Look at this thread. People cant even come up with a coherant reason why the ending is bad. "er... because red green and blue" "err because choice number 2" "Errmm because immersion" you cant trust people like that to give you an HONEST answer. They wouldnt say yes because they dont have to. They refuse to admit that on a subconcious level thats the reason. So we'll leave it there. It is almost like people have different opinions! Who'd have thought it? Just because you don't think their reason is valid doesn't mean it isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 19:59:15 GMT
[x] stay classy, BSN. If a poster is dazzling you with inordinate amounts of wit, blinding you, as it were, with the radiance of his or her intellect, argumentative acumen, and scholarly precision, feel free to just BLOCK them.
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Post by fiannawolf on Feb 8, 2017 20:00:50 GMT
These videos sum up my feelings.
It feels like a merry-go-round. Is there anything that would have helped this ending other then total retcon?
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Post by simsimillia on Feb 8, 2017 20:01:12 GMT
True, but I'm not sure those examples provided usable guidance for ME. For instance, while we never really understand the Taurans in The Forever War, we understand them well enough to know what the war was about. Easy to do, since the war was about pretty much nothing. I don't think ME could have gotten away with that. The Reapers are a high-difficulty problem because their entire civilization is oriented around a sequence of highly-specific and irrational actions, and those actions are central to the plot. Honestly, I suspect the Reapers were inspired as much by Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers as by Cthulhu. When it's a fight for survival, particularly against a far more advanced foe, the reason is essentially academic. As Loki put it: "An ant has no quarrel with a boot" The Reapers staying mysterious would be fine as long as we could find a way to save ourselves from them that didn't suck. YES! Exactly! The Reapers, like Alien, don't need a reason or motivation to do what they are doing, they just need to do it. sinkingfish: You assume that I think that Mass Effect 3 is a bad game where I actually like the game a lot. I also don't think Bioware Writers are shit, but they really, really dropped the ball on the ending. And because Mass Effect 3 wasn't a bad game it made it all the worse, hell I was super invested up until the point I met the Starbrat. Had Mass Effect 3 just been a shit game, I and many others wouldn't have been so upset. About the Crucible Plans: I stand corrected, it still is incredibly convenient to have that happen in the first mission of the game. About Priority Earth: The biggest pacing issue is the pause, where you can talk to all the characters which also has a weird turret segment in it (what the hell Bioware?). The majority of what happened there should've happened before the fleet jumped to Earth. About a different Ending: Could I come up with a better ending, that at least I think is better? I'm fairly confident I can. Hell, the Fan Edit, that leaves out the Starbrat and just jumps straight to the Destruction ending works better in my opinion, simply because the sudden shift in tone is avoided. It's not that hard to come up with something better. I feel like they thought they had to put a big decision at the end, but that wasn't really needed. It's what I liked about Corypheus in DAI: You set out to destroy him and you do just that.
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Post by urkibalurki on Feb 8, 2017 20:02:56 GMT
I still don't understand why people keep on relating the ending of ME3 with ME:A. ME:A is a spin-off; they called blank slate on it. Furthermore, the arks and the Nexus leave the Milky Way in 2185, one year before the events told in ME3. I thought this thread was about Mass Effect Andromeda skepticism; all these pages about the ending of ME3 are way off topic.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Feb 8, 2017 20:03:58 GMT
What I am saying is, if someone can come up with a valid, clear cut reason as to why the ending was bad and we should all agree because their evidence is infallible, then I will agree. However using the reason "The ending is bad cos i didnt get it" isnt a reason Could you stop throwing around the strawman fallacies? You're arguing against a reason I didn't even list. It wasnt multiple endings for the last time. it was three paths to one ending. If the author meant for there to be one definitive ending, then no you shouldnt have a problem with that. I would completely agree with that, were it not for the fact that they promised the complete opposite. They promised a multitude of diverse endings that were going to be different for everyone who played it. I posted all the lies for you, but you were too busy going "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Once again, if the authors meant for there to be one definitive ending, they should have advertised it as such. They did the opposite. I already provided the evidence. Your entire argument boils down to nothing. They delivered the opposite of what they promised, and people were right to be upset. In other words: You're WRONG. Again, the whole point of the ending was to drive home the point that Shepard was dead and not coming back! The reason I keep saying it is because people dont seem to "get it". Then why did we get the breath scene, in which Shepard survives? And before you say: "It could just as well be Shepard's dying breath.", the segment of code that describes this particular ending is: ITS SCIENCE FICTION IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE FUCKING LOGICAL!!!! That is the silliest argument you could come up with. Mass Effect is a particular type of of sci-fi known as Hard Science Fiction, a category characterized by an emphasis on scientific accuracy. Most of the science is semi-realistic and plausible, and well thought out compared to other SF. And above all, the lore is very consistent throughout the games. Introducing "organic energy" and space magic waves was a complete departure. What I gathered from the ending was that all primitive life was wiped out to try and make new more intelligent life possible. humans wages wars against each other, starvation, pretty much the stuff you see today. Basically we weren't worthy of being left alive because we were too stupid. (Again I might be way off on this but thats what I got fron it) Um, what?! Reapers only harvest the most advanced civilizations, not the primitive ones. What the hell are you on about? Look at the Quarians. invented an AI race, then when it started asking questions, they tried to wipe them out! The point I suppose, of en ending like that is you can interperate it any way you want. Except that the Quarians didn't intend to develop an AI. They accidentally did because they hadn't anticipated how networking them would make them vastly more intelligent. I bet if someone took a poll on whether Shepard should have lived or died the overwhelming amount would say yes. Even if that were true, that doesn't mean it was the main complaint about the ending. Because it wasn't.
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