Raga
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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December 2016
ontarah
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Post by Raga on Jan 25, 2017 18:31:56 GMT
That's because after DAO, Bioware decided speech checks (or at least old school persuade) were silly and they've been trying to create some kind of "not" speech check ever since. My personal favorite attempt so far was the DAI system, wherein you took an inquisition perk to unlock special dialog options (relating to mages or history or whatever) *or* you could have a companion essentially do a persuade for you. I am somewhat inclined to agree with them that old-school persuades are rather silly just because they are seldom implemented well. They either become the "win" button or they just come off as really abrupt and silly. I remember one particularly terrible one in Fallout 4 after Danse is revealed to be a synth. He talks at length and with emotion about why he needs to die for his ideals, you deliver 1 persuade line, and he completely changes his mind. "You're right!" complete with the cash register sound effect of a successful persuade check and a look of wide-eyed epiphany. It was just so cheap and silly compared to the weight of the rest of the scene. General persuade checks shouldn't feel like I just performed a Jedi mind trick. Speech checks in general always struck me as feeling a tad shallow. I prefer when dialogue is unlocked under special circumstances that aren't simply points added to your character's stats, like if your character found documents or managed to speak to certain NPC's that are key to a certain resolution. Inquisition had this with the Orlesian ball. If you weren't thorough enough, you might not be able to have certain outcomes available. I do like that, but I also like having specific dialog styles I can invest in. To go back to older games again, NWN2 had Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade, and Lore as separate skills that could all open up unique dialog depending on how you built your character. PoE had *tons* of unique dialog based on race, class, your background and your particular build. Some of this was just flavor dialog and some gave you distinct advantages. I understand ME was never designed to have a system that complex, but I don't see any reason why you can't have a handful of extra dialog perks you could choose from that gave you extra knowledge and therefore extra dialog about certain things. Certainly at least for Biotics and Engineering. It always irked me that Shepard could be an engineer and still not know basic things about how ship drive cores work, for instance. |
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Sylvius the Mad
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sylvius
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 26, 2017 17:40:23 GMT
Speech checks in general always struck me as feeling a tad shallow. I prefer when dialogue is unlocked under special circumstances that aren't simply points added to your character's stats, like if your character found documents or managed to speak to certain NPC's that are key to a certain resolution. Inquisition had this with the Orlesian ball. If you weren't thorough enough, you might not be able to have certain outcomes available. We shouldn't be choosing among outcomes at all. We should be choosing actions for our characters; whether those actions have outcomes we like shouldn't always be controllable. I like the idea of stat checks because that allows us to try intimidation even if we're not generally intimidating. But as long as it suits the situation (and only the player ever knows if it does), an attempt at intimidation should be permitted. That it wouldn't work is not a reason to stop us from trying. |
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KaiserShep
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kaisershep
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 26, 2017 18:33:47 GMT
Forget about outcomes. Certain dialogue simply can't exist without relevant knowledge. If I want my character to blackmail an NPC, that character needs information for the opportunity to present itself. Even if the option to try was there without it, there would still be different dialogue for lack of any information.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2017 19:59:56 GMT
I understand ME was never designed to have a system that complex, but I don't see any reason why you can't have a handful of extra dialog perks you could choose from that gave you extra knowledge and therefore extra dialog about certain things. Certainly at least for Biotics and Engineering. It always irked me that Shepard could be an engineer and still not know basic things about how ship drive cores work, for instance. I like to think that a lot of those conversations are there for the benefit of the player rather than the character. I'm okay with their existence so long as they're optional. It does sometimes bother me when a squadmate, rather than the PC, is the one who comes up with suggestions / solutions, or conveys knowledge the PC should have. If it's just a comment (like Cortez mentioning the Kodiak's specs would allow it to go underwater in the Leviathan DLC), I'm totally okay with that. But Shepard having to ask Traynor for an alternate way to break into the Normandy (Citadel DLC main mission) should not have happened, imho. Shepard should have known about that hatch. The scene would have been better if Shepard had gone ahead and attempted to open it, and then asked for help getting it unlocked, imho. |
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Sylvius the Mad
686
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sylvius
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 26, 2017 20:37:46 GMT
Forget about outcomes. Certain dialogue simply can't exist without relevant knowledge. If I want my character to blackmail an NPC, that character needs information for the opportunity to present itself. Even if the option to try was there without it, there would still be different dialogue for lack of any information. That's a writing problem, not a mechanical one. |
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Jul 17, 2019 20:15:37 GMT
740
Sylvius the Mad
686
August 2016
sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 26, 2017 20:41:20 GMT
I like to think that a lot of those conversations are there for the benefit of the player rather than the character. I'm okay with their existence so long as they're optional. It does sometimes bother me when a squadmate, rather than the PC, is the one who comes up with suggestions / solutions, or conveys knowledge the PC should have. If it's just a comment (like Cortez mentioning the Kodiak's specs would allow it to go underwater in the Leviathan DLC), I'm totally okay with that. But Shepard having to ask Traynor for an alternate way to break into the Normandy (Citadel DLC main mission) should not have happened, imho. Shepard should have known about that hatch. The scene would have been better if Shepard had gone ahead and attempted to open it, and then asked for help getting it unlocked, imho. That Shepard asks the question does not require that Shepard didn’t already know the answer. I ask people questions to which I think I know the answer all the time. It's a good way to determine what information other people have without tipping your hand. I'll agree on one point, though. It shouldn't be necessary to unlock quest paths in dialogue. I should be able to follow a course of action withiut an NPC first suggesting it. Using dialogue rather than active gameplay to branch plots is really clumsy. I shouldn't have to announce which squadmate I save. Which I save should be determined by which one I actually go save. |
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Raga
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 324 Likes: 622
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Raga
324
Dec 27, 2016 14:16:12 GMT
December 2016
ontarah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Raga on Jan 26, 2017 21:55:06 GMT
Forget about outcomes. Certain dialogue simply can't exist without relevant knowledge. If I want my character to blackmail an NPC, that character needs information for the opportunity to present itself. Even if the option to try was there without it, there would still be different dialogue for lack of any information. Some of this is good, but it can also go in a bad direction. I wouldn't really want my dialog options to be limited because I didn't spend adequate time rummaging around in assorted boxes. And that is kind of how the ball scenario was set up. |
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