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Post by opuspace on Aug 24, 2016 1:58:03 GMT
What's a shame is that there's no offer to join Bull's Chargers if they're saved. I'd think that if Bull is making time to go see Dorian and to save him from danger, then Bull would do the same for his Kadan.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 4:55:58 GMT
Iron Bull is in the meeting at the end, so pretty sure he'll be working with the inquisitor and his efforts to stop Solas plan. Though, I am still a little off put by the fact that the Inquisitor's storyline with Solas is cut off before any good closure occurs. I know the rules of DA's "every game new hero" still probably applies, but if there were was ever a need for the same character to return this would be it. I hope our inquisitor will be some sort of presence in the next game (along side him/her should be Iron Bull too...but yeah that's really unlikely considering how they handled Hawke's story).
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2016 12:07:55 GMT
It did seem rather strange that Trespasser was intended to give closure on the Inquisitor's story and then they ended it as they did. If you didn't know they had said that there would be a new protagonist each game, you'd definitely think the Inquisitor would be back, plus whoever their love interest is in support, which would of course create no end of problems. So I think that is unlikely. I thought the way they handled Hawke being on their own was lame. After DA2 ended with the only person still with them being their love interest, why would that change? It was particularly noticeable if that LI was Anders (why would Hawke leave him to manage alone?) or Fenris (who was quite adamant at the end of my play through that he would rather die with Hawke than live without them). So may be the way they left it for Iron Bull was for the best. As you say, you can then imagine your own scenario as to how the ex-Inquisitor is filling their time knowing that they will always been in his thoughts. I'm sure he would dash to the rescue if he thought they were in danger.
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Post by blastoandbubin on Aug 25, 2016 3:23:37 GMT
The way I interpreted the epilogue slide was that Bull continues to work with the Chargers, but he's not gone for very long; he comes home between jobs, that kind of thing. The necklace is just something he wears on those jobs that happen to be long enough he's not going to be seeing the Inquisitor for a few weeks or however long. Given that you can get quasi-engaged, it seemed weird to have it mean he just kind of runs off with the Chargers and the Inquisitor is left to pine away. I do remember right after Trespasser came out, someone asked Patrick Weekes about why the Inquisitor couldn't join the Chargers and he said something about how he saw the Inquisitor traveling with them, but never fully joining because of conflict of interest between being a Charger and being Bull's romantic partner, especially after the Quiz had been the boss before and he didn't want the Inquisitor to come off as subordinate to Bull (probably because the nature of their sexual relationship was a little controversial in fandom, tbh.) Like it would be potentially kind of awkward, lol. I thought it made sense, still wished we could have joined the Chargers though
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Post by Artemis on Aug 25, 2016 3:34:05 GMT
I do remember right after Trespasser came out, someone asked Patrick Weekes about why the Inquisitor couldn't join the Chargers and he said something about how he saw the Inquisitor traveling with them, but never fully joining because of conflict of interest between being a Charger and being Bull's romantic partner, especially after the Quiz had been the boss before, and he didn't want the Inquisitor to come off as subordinate to Bull (probably because the nature of their sexual relationship was a little controversial in fandom, tbh.) Like it would be potentially kind of awkward, lol. I thought it made sense, still wished we could have joined the Chargers though Sigh. That is frustrating. They do (and Weekes in particular) seem to have weird ideas about romances and what's appropriate/acceptable, like that statement he made about why Solas couldn't be bisexual (b/c he'd be the "evil bisexual" trope). I kind of wonder if at that point (saying the inquisitor would be subordinate to Bull and so it wouldn't work) he was realizing that he hadn't quite gotten that aspect of the relationship right. Or maybe not "not right" since a ton of people really do like it, but just problematic. In my own canon at least, Lavellan will no longer the inquisitor and so that power dynamic is gone. So I envision them putting aside the BDSM stuff, especially since Bull's been so long out of the qun so he may be more comfortable removing power from sex and instead focusing on simple expression of love and intimacy. Though hey maybe they do bust out the ropes and handcuffs every now and then to keep things spicy
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Post by blastoandbubin on Aug 25, 2016 3:57:05 GMT
I do remember right after Trespasser came out, someone asked Patrick Weekes about why the Inquisitor couldn't join the Chargers and he said something about how he saw the Inquisitor traveling with them, but never fully joining because of conflict of interest between being a Charger and being Bull's romantic partner, especially after the Quiz had been the boss before, and he didn't want the Inquisitor to come off as subordinate to Bull (probably because the nature of their sexual relationship was a little controversial in fandom, tbh.) Like it would be potentially kind of awkward, lol. I thought it made sense, still wished we could have joined the Chargers though Sigh. That is frustrating. They do (and Weekes in particular) seem to have weird ideas about romances and what's appropriate/acceptable, like that statement he made about why Solas couldn't be bisexual (b/c he'd be the "evil bisexual" trope). I kind of wonder if at that point (saying the inquisitor would be subordinate to Bull and so it wouldn't work) he was realizing that he hadn't quite gotten that aspect of the relationship right. Or maybe not "not right" since a ton of people really do like it, but just problematic. In my own canon at least, Lavellan will no longer the inquisitor and so that power dynamic is gone. So I envision them putting aside the BDSM stuff, especially since Bull's been so long out of the qun so he may be more comfortable removing power from sex and instead focusing on simple expression of love and intimacy. Though hey maybe they do bust out the ropes and handcuffs every now and then to keep things spicy Yeah, honestly I felt like a lot of Bull's romance content in Trespasser was almost reactionary, like they were trying to overcorrect certain things because his romance had become such a lightning rod. It was kind of sad because on his Twitter he seemed really genuine in hoping the emotion and care (from Bull) came through in Trespasser, even though there really wasn't much content for it to come through in, lol. I wondered how much he tailored or cut Bull's romance content because it turned out to be rather unpopular. What might have been, I guess. Personally I never had an issue with the bdsm stuff, it's not my thing but I'm not actually dating Iron Bull, so I figured maybe my Inquisitor is just more exciting than me, lol. They can continue to abuse all the chandeliers they want until they're old and gray, I don't mind  Either way, I wouldn't have cared about the Quiz being subordinate if it meant I got another slide mentioning them working together or even just travelling. Weekes should never underestimate what fans will tolerate/headcanon out in the service of getting cute romance content they can squee over.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 3:45:26 GMT
Yep, and the negative reaction to Iron Bull/Dorian's (in my opinion) abusive sounding relationship lead to that relationship getting more attention that it deserved to justify it during Trespasser. It bothers me more then it should I admit, but why spend so much time on a companion relationship instead of fleshing out the content with the inquisitor during Trespasser? Meh...sorry if I sound like a hater. lol!
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Post by Artemis on Aug 26, 2016 5:44:11 GMT
Yep, and the negative reaction to Iron Bull/Dorian's (in my opinion) abusive sounding relationship lead to that relationship getting more attention that it deserved to justify it during Trespasser. It bothers me more then it should I admit, but why spend so much time on a companion relationship instead of fleshing out the content with the inquisitor during Trespasser? Meh...sorry if I sound like a hater. lol! Yeah I'm not a fan of that relationship either but I also don't mean to be a hater; it has its fans and that's totally fine. It didn't happen in my Trespasser playthrough so I haven't seen that content, but just in general, I think BW needs to step back from these companion romances. You're basically either okay with them/fine with them or YOU REALLY HATE THEM!!!! lol To me they add little to the story except to irritate people who don't like them. And yes, I'm THAT bitter Fenris x Isabela fan  (Love both characters, but that pairing... no... esp. with all her jokes about slavery... and his intimacy issues... AND seriously they go and make another pairing with questionable issues in Dorian x Bull... gahh)
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Post by opuspace on Aug 26, 2016 5:45:43 GMT
Yep, and the negative reaction to Iron Bull/Dorian's (in my opinion) abusive sounding relationship lead to that relationship getting more attention that it deserved to justify it during Trespasser. It bothers me more then it should I admit, but why spend so much time on a companion relationship instead of fleshing out the content with the inquisitor during Trespasser? Meh...sorry if I sound like a hater. lol! Nah, that's normal to want one's own relationship to be validated alongside an alternate canon. When attention is lopsidedly in favor of one over the other, resentment will grow. As for the accusations of Bull and Dorian having an abusive relationship...I don't want to dismiss carefully checking for signs in any suspicious moments...but I'm more inclined to say it's not. At least, it's not as easy to pick out compared to the more obvious examples like Sera's ultimatum and taking a swing at her girlfriend's head if taken on the Adamant mission (I've checked with a couples' therapist; what Sera does IS abusive. I don't want to make Sera fans feel that they're wrong to love her and romance her, because people are complicated and are not doomed forever after to stay in such a negative state, but neither should something like abuse be ignored.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 6:36:37 GMT
Yep, and the negative reaction to Iron Bull/Dorian's (in my opinion) abusive sounding relationship lead to that relationship getting more attention that it deserved to justify it during Trespasser. It bothers me more then it should I admit, but why spend so much time on a companion relationship instead of fleshing out the content with the inquisitor during Trespasser? Meh...sorry if I sound like a hater. lol! Yeah I'm not a fan of that relationship either but I also don't mean to be a hater; it has its fans and that's totally fine. It didn't happen in my Trespasser playthrough so I haven't seen that content, but just in general, I think BW needs to step back from these companion romances. You're basically either okay with them/fine with them or YOU REALLY HATE THEM!!!! lol To me they add little to the story except to irritate people who don't like them. And yes, I'm THAT bitter Fenris x Isabela fan  (Love both characters, but that pairing... no... esp. with all her jokes about slavery... and his intimacy issues... AND seriously they go and make another pairing with questionable issues in Dorian x Bull... gahh) I think that's actually part of why I'm bitter about Dorian and Bull, I also had to deal with the Fenris and Isabella thing. It's like every guy that's my favorite in a DA game is in a companion relationship. If they return again, it's almost assured that whoever I like best will be in one...and it'll suck. I am generally okay with it though since it's actually super easy to avoid in Inquisition, in DA2 it felt a bit more unavoidable however. Isabella is an unavoidable force of nature.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 14:01:31 GMT
I sympathise with you on both those fronts. My main gripe with Fenris was that poor Hawke is put through two years of agony not knowing where they are in the relationship but Isabella is just plain sailing. I know Fenris didn't care for Isabella like he did for Hawke in the end but it was still annoying. I seem to be a serial "my boyfriend just went off for 2 years leaving me dangling." person. First there was Fenris, then Solas and even Dorian if you don't say exactly the right things after the Temple of Mythal. (I cheated to make sure I did).
As for the Iron Bull/Dorian pairing I've never been entirely happy with that either. I think Tal'Vashoth Bull is fair enough but Qun loyal Bull just seems totally off where Dorian is concerned, although it is Dorian's actions that I principally question. If you take him on the personal quest, Dorian rants on about how terrible the Qun are, sees Bull let his buddies die, knows his country is still officially at war with the Qun (although not actively so at that time) and yet gets into a long term relationship with him. I know he says he doesn't care about being a pariah but he also claims to love his country. Then we are meant to believe that the Magisterium/Archon would make him an official ambassador for their country. I surprised they didn't string him up when he got home. That is a serious security risk, particularly when you consider that Dorian's family estate is just outside Qarinus, which has always been on the front line during any Qunari invasion. Then Dorian claims Bull doesn't understand why they can't be together. Ben'Hassrath Bull would totally understand, so he has to be trying to manipulate him.
The amount of attention given to the Bull/Dorian romance in Trespasser, both in game and in the epilogue screens, did seem to be a bit of overkill if it was just meant to be trying to address the accusations against it. Compare it with the amount of time given to the Sera romance with Dagna and it is clearly unbalanced in favour of the companion pairing. I was irritated by that as a Dorian romance but I thought it really unfair to the Bull romancers.
One thing I did find funny though, when I saw it on You Tube, was how come Dorian only gets an allergic reaction to stripweed if he is in a romance with Bull?
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Post by opuspace on Aug 26, 2016 14:58:29 GMT
Should companion romances stay between non romancable members to avoid making players feel it's biased in who is a better partner or who cares more?
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Post by Artemis on Aug 26, 2016 20:27:12 GMT
Should companion romances stay between non romancable members to avoid making players feel it's biased in who is a better partner or who cares more? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS  (I have noticed though that that is the less popular opinion)
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Post by blastoandbubin on Aug 26, 2016 23:06:28 GMT
I'm not wholly against romanceable characters being able to hook up with each other, I romanced Garrus but still liked Talibrations, and Fenris/Isabela and Bull/Dorian in the base game didn't bother me either. Might as well get some action if I'm ignoring them, lol. But I do think maybe the writers should be more careful about the balance of the content. Whether they want to admit it or not, the romances in Bioware games are one of their big selling points, and fandom revolves around shipping and romance to a disproportionate extent. Whether that should be the case, I don't know, but it's the facts. And what I saw after Trespasser was a lot of Bullmancers (and Dorianmancers, too) feeling as though a fairly important part of their game experience had essentially been invalidated by what they saw as the writers desperation to prove that Dorian and Bull were a good match, equal to their Inquisitor romances or maybe even better.
And that's really kind of a shitty way to end a game for your fans, especially for gay fans who basically had their only two romance options run off into the sunset together at the expense of content for the characters they could actually play and invest in. You shouldn't have to feel like you got screwed because you didn't play a female elf that romanced the most gated guy in the game, or the straight human male heartthrob. And that was the takeaway I got from a lot of fan reactions (I have a tumblr so I definitely saw a lot of reactions, lol.) As much as I loved Bull's romance and was happy with what we got in Trespasser (though obviously I wouldn't have been sad if we'd gotten more), I definitely felt that there was some bias towards a certain world state, and that kind of sucked.
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Post by PCthug on Aug 27, 2016 17:13:30 GMT
I understand the bias on the writers part, though. Dorian and Bull are defined, set characters. I can't fault two writers for finding a pairing that they enjoyed and inspired them and running with it. I think they're more cautious when it comes to the PC's, because anything they have them do without option or input from the player can spark a host of "My character would never say/do that!" rants. Options and input mean dialogue trees and branching options and more work overall.
Overall, I'm a fan of companions hooking up. I like the idea that they're not sitting around waiting for you to notice them or forever alone if you romance someone else.
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Post by Artemis on Aug 27, 2016 19:29:06 GMT
Yeah, reading your arguments, i can see both opinions as valid. I do think there was a great deal of grumbling with Solas and Cullen being so gated, but on the other hand, it is rare for female gamers (or more specifically, female player characters) to get the most attention. But it's true that it can feel very frustrating and grating when your character's only two options seem, by the devs at least, happier with one another than with you.
(At least with FenBela I get the sense the Fenris x Hawke is a love for the ages, whereas FenBela is "just havin' some fun" (which, again, is weird for Fenris but okay). (And although I do feel super irritable about how Hawkebela was interpreted in DAI, FenBela doesn't overshadow it the way Adoribull can overshadow either inquisitor pairing.)
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Post by blastoandbubin on Aug 27, 2016 20:57:15 GMT
I understand the bias on the writers part, though. Dorian and Bull are defined, set characters. I can't fault two writers for finding a pairing that they enjoyed and inspired them and running with it. I think they're more cautious when it comes to the PC's, because anything they have them do without option or input from the player can spark a host of "My character would never say/do that!" rants. Options and input mean dialogue trees and branching options and more work overall. Overall, I'm a fan of companions hooking up. I like the idea that they're not sitting around waiting for you to notice them or forever alone if you romance someone else. Yeah, I can't fault them either, but I also can't fault players who felt put off by it, you know? I think ultimately this is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't arguments. At the end of the day the devs have to decide which player experience is more important - the experience of a player who will flip out if they feel their PC is being railroaded, or the experience of a player who will feel shortchanged if they don't get what they see as an equitable amount of content to a developed npc/npc romance. It's almost impossible to please both groups. They also have to consider the number of people who will see any content they create and thus making it worth the work, and in the case of Dorian/Bull, far more players romanced neither of them than players who did, so it made sense to give them a lot of comparatively low-cost Trespasser content for background flavor. Ultimately it's a kind of futile to think about, imo. Companion romances aren't going anywhere and Bioware seems to be very cautious about perceived railroading re: the PC's actions and relationships. There'll probably be another mini-blowup in fandom over the next pairing, just like there is in every game. I imagine they may be a little more cautious in the future because of how negative some of the fandom's reaction was to Dorian/Bull, but I certainly wouldn't worry about npc romances being scrapped altogether.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 27, 2016 22:59:32 GMT
Should companion romances stay between non romancable members to avoid making players feel it's biased in who is a better partner or who cares more? Yes. I absolutely loathe Bioware pairing LIs together.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 28, 2016 9:32:11 GMT
Should companion romances stay between non romancable members to avoid making players feel it's biased in who is a better partner or who cares more? Yes absolutely, but at least with IB and Dorian it's a player choice... if you don't keep them in your party at the same time then they don't become a couple. That's something at least.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 28, 2016 21:41:43 GMT
Yes. I absolutely loathe Bioware pairing LIs together. Yes absolutely, but at least with IB and Dorian it's a player choice... if you don't keep them in your party at the same time then they don't become a couple. That's something at least.  I wish I was more mature about this (I mean, I'm not nuts enough to actually kill off a romantic rival) but I feel like Leonard Hofstader when a crush is about to ride off with someone else. "NOOOOO!"
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Post by Artemis on Aug 28, 2016 23:40:58 GMT
Yes. I absolutely loathe Bioware pairing LIs together. Yes absolutely, but at least with IB and Dorian it's a player choice... if you don't keep them in your party at the same time then they don't become a couple. That's something at least. I wish I was more mature about this (I mean, I'm not nuts enough to actually kill off a romantic rival) but I feel like Leonard Hofstader when a crush is about to ride off with someone else. "NOOOOO!" Yeah that about sums it up for me, too! I guess it sort of makes you feel like "your" pairing is not so special. I mean isn't this moment between my Lavellan and Bull supposed to be meaningful?? Yes I'm cursed with being a total romantic xD I like to think that my character and his LI were "meant for each other." So that even if I play a different character next time the LI never meets my character and so true love never happens. *hmph*
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Post by opuspace on Aug 29, 2016 3:32:24 GMT
[quote timestamp="1472420503" author=" opuspace" source="/post/45648/thread" Yeah that about sums it up for me, too! I guess it sort of makes you feel like "your" pairing is not so special. I mean isn't this moment between my Lavellan and Bull supposed to be meaningful?? Yes I'm cursed with being a total romantic xD I like to think that my character and his LI were "meant for each other." So that even if I play a different character next time the LI never meets my character and so true love never happens. *hmph*[/quote] It's even worse considering how some LI's can get married and others cannot. Between competition with other canons and being forgotten in the next game, romance is like playing Russian roulette with our hearts. D:
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Post by Artemis on Aug 29, 2016 5:05:12 GMT
Hmph, tell me about it! I romanced Zevran... you know, the romance they NEVER BOTHERED TO FIX in DA2  Then I feel everyone got shafted in DAI in regards to DA2 romances since they couldn't be assed to include the LI with Hawke's appearance. (Only acceptable excuse imo is if one or more of the VAs refused to come back and record the five or so lines they'd need.) Bull better still be in a loving and committed relationship with my inquisitor come DA4 or so help me...
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Post by opuspace on Aug 29, 2016 5:21:36 GMT
I'm scared Artemis, Bull and Blackwall are possible dead states...we could be forgotten like Jacob and Thane were! D: Nooooo!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2016 5:42:23 GMT
Yeah that about sums it up for me, too! I guess it sort of makes you feel like "your" pairing is not so special. I mean isn't this moment between my Lavellan and Bull supposed to be meaningful?? Yes I'm cursed with being a total romantic xD I like to think that my character and his LI were "meant for each other." So that even if I play a different character next time the LI never meets my character and so true love never happens. *hmph* It's even worse considering how some LI's can get married and others cannot. Between competition with other canons and being forgotten in the next game, romance is like playing Russian roulette with our hearts. D: At least with The Iron Bull you get to talk about marriage. My main romance is Josephine, whose romance is perfect for that, and you can't even bring the topic up in Trespasser. As for the LIs pairing up with each other, for me it isn't so much that I think my character and the LI are meant for each other that ruins it for me, but that the pairing between the LIs is usually portrayed as them being meant for each other that I can't bring myself to romance either since it feels like I'm destroying something.
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