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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2016 19:05:47 GMT
Then Trespasser came out, and I get yet another reason I like the choice: killing Hissrad. Not simply because I really didn't like him, but in fact you actually grant his wish. He mentions that when the stress on Seheron got to him he wanted to die but nobody there deserved the honor and pleasure of him being killed by. In Trespasser, he meets that person: you. You are Basalit-an, a person worthy of respect, and he gets defeated by you, granting him a warrior's death at the hands of someone he sees worthy. He didn't really seem to respect you, though, when he calls you 'bas' instead of 'basalit-an' or 'kadan.' I wonder what went through his head when he attacked the Inquisitor. Maybe nothing. I mean he knew better anyone what the Inquisitor was capable of and must have known they could not win. If he had cared about the Dragon's Breath plan or anything at all he should have warned Viddasala and try to take out the Inquisitor before, in a surprise attack, a quick dagger to slit their throat or something like that. I saw that as a play on words since bas sounds identical to boss, at least when he says it. We know what went through his head if you have Cole in the party. He says, "I didn't feel it. There wasn't any pain." so that means Hissrad had no feelings or thoughts go through his mind, instead just seeing the Inquisitor as a target. As for not speaking out, the Qun doesn't really allow for subordinates to bring up such stuff and instead follow the orders of their superiors, seeing that since their superior is a superior they know what they are doing. We see this in DA2 where despite the Arishok going against the Qun in his invasion of Kirkwall, all his soldiers follow without question. Or, perhaps him being quiet was the final subconscious act of rebellion from The Iron Bull against Hissrad and the Qun.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 2, 2016 19:17:22 GMT
The Chantry is right up there in how they selectively treat other races. I'd rather reform the government instead of bringing it down on innocent bystanders who have no choice about living under those conditions. As for Bull's wish, I don't think he ever had a death wish. He's quite fine if he's Tal-Vashoth and I believe more people are helped by him and the Chargers instead of saving Qun soldiers who are just going to receive more orders to kill people instead of saving them. I disagree emphatically. Yes the Chantry has issues, but it is nowhere close to what the Imperium and the Qun do. For starters, they don't enslave people. Regardless, I didn't mean bring down in the sense of everything destroyed, but more just the old system is completely changed from the ground up. For example since you mentioned the Chantry, what Leliana does to it I would like something comparable to be options to both the Imperium and the Qun. We know he did. He explicitly tells us he did in a conversation. It was because of that he was going to send himself to be reeducated but instead his superiors sent him to be The Iron Bull. You can believe what you want, but the facts are with me. In the events of Inquisition, vastly more people are saved by siding with the Qun compared to siding with the Chargers. That's fine then, making changes to the government without literally smashing it to pieces. But something like the Chantry is really not much better with their discrimination in the ranks of the faithful, their selective treatment of mages in the Circles according to their family's class, their Exalted Marches and the maintenance of poverty levels on the city elves while they turn a blind eye to the abuse. Even explicitly laying down laws to enable mistreating elves. They and Tevinter were portrayed as mirror images for a reason. Could you bring up a quote where Bull says he wanted to die? My memory's fuzzy. All I can recall is that he said he couldn't think of a reason to keep doing his job. He was more worried about hurting others and that's why he went to the reeducators. And as for saving lives, it's not just about numbers. For example, would you save 300 war criminals or a dozen morally grounded soldiers who would pick and choose to save people without a government forcing them to commit atrocities? Trespasser's epilogue does have the Chargers saving people whereas the Qun's just gearing up for war because...beliefs!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2016 19:29:35 GMT
Could you bring up a quote where Bull says he wanted to die? My memory's fuzzy. All I can recall is that he said he couldn't think of a reason to keep doing his job. He was more worried about hurting others and that's why he went to the reeducators. Yeah, in his first conversation when he brings up fighting in Seheron he says: The Iron Bull: "I hunted down a lot of rebels. Lost a lot of friends to the Vints, or the Fog Warriors, or the Tal-Vashoth. One day, I woke up and couldn't think of a damned reason to keep doing my job. Turned myself in to the reeducators. Inquisitor(choose the 'That was brave' option): "Not many people would have the courage to do that." The Iron Bull: "I thought about letting some rebel kill me, but I couldn't give any of those bastards the satisfaction." And as for saving lives, it's not just about numbers. For example, would you save 300 war criminals or a dozen morally grounded soldiers who would pick and choose to save people without a government forcing them to commit atrocities? Trespasser's epilogue does have the Chargers saving people whereas the Qun's just gearing up for war because...beliefs! Your example is not a valid comparison. We know nothing of the soldiers on the dreadnought. They could all be morally grounded soldiers. Likewise, seeing the Bull's Chargers as morally grounded soldiers is subjective.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2016 19:32:01 GMT
In terms of the number of people that are saved by taking either side, I'd say it was about equal. You have to remember that the Chargers amount to more than the inner circle we meet. It is a proper mercenary band and get involved in a lot of activities post Cory, particularly mopping up stray Venatori, as well as those we involved them in during the game.
As for Hissrad not warning the Viddasala being a final subconscious act of rebellion, that could be true. I just think that losing the Chargers broke his spirit. It might have seemed like he was the same Iron Bull on the Qunari run but it was genuinely just an act; he was now just the tool of whoever controlled him in the Qun and that is why Cole cannot feel any emotion from him.
I would opt for Tevinter over the Qun for the same reason that Solas would; a slave can still dream of freedom in Tevinter but the Qun deny them even that. However, I wouldn't be happy about siding with Tevinter without getting something tangible in return, like freedom for the slaves, it is just I doubt the writers would allow that. That's why I compared it to the decision in BG2 because both sides were a compromise of my principles but evil shadow thieves who manipulated and killed people just seemed that bit better than vampires who could dominate them with mind control and then make them do anything they wanted them to. (I actually think the parallels are quite close).
If that tactics game ever materialises, then I imagine siding with one or the other would likely be the option.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 2, 2016 19:46:32 GMT
Could you bring up a quote where Bull says he wanted to die? My memory's fuzzy. All I can recall is that he said he couldn't think of a reason to keep doing his job. He was more worried about hurting others and that's why he went to the reeducators. Yeah, in his first conversation when he brings up fighting in Seheron he says: The Iron Bull: "I hunted down a lot of rebels. Lost a lot of friends to the Vints, or the Fog Warriors, or the Tal-Vashoth. One day, I woke up and couldn't think of a damned reason to keep doing my job. Turned myself in to the reeducators. Inquisitor(choose the 'That was brave' option): "Not many people would have the courage to do that." The Iron Bull: "I thought about letting some rebel kill me, but I couldn't give any of those bastards the satisfaction." And as for saving lives, it's not just about numbers. For example, would you save 300 war criminals or a dozen morally grounded soldiers who would pick and choose to save people without a government forcing them to commit atrocities? Trespasser's epilogue does have the Chargers saving people whereas the Qun's just gearing up for war because...beliefs! Your example is not a valid comparison. We know nothing of the soldiers on the dreadnought. They could all be morally grounded soldiers. Likewise, seeing the Bull's Chargers as morally grounded soldiers is subjective. An idle thought of letting a rebel kill him does not mean a sustained desire for suicide. Otherwise, wouldn't Bull simply find another way to end it if made Tal-Vashoth? That's just it; we know nothing about the soldiers beyond what the Qunari will do with them. And my analogy wasn't meant to connect with the Chargers and the dreadnought. But Trespasser's epilogue still supports that the Chargers and Bull go save lives and that the Qunari are gearing up for war.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 20:02:57 GMT
I feel like more people will be saved in the long run by a permanent alliance with the Chargers then a temporary farce with the Qun.
But anyway...on a lighter note have a video featuring the Nug King with a little bit of Iron Bull in the mix. Love those tats!
(That's my quizzy and video FYI) 
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Post by opuspace on Sept 2, 2016 20:14:00 GMT
Lee80 You are correct; a Tal-Vashoth Bull ending is better as the consequences are much more favorable.
Iron Bull betrayal, no romance
It was never clear if the Iron Bull knew if he would be forced to turn upon the Inquisition, or if he was lying the entire time. Regardless, after his death, Tal-Vashoth mercenaries across Orlais and Fereldan were looked upon with suspicion. Those who remained in the South found their lives even harder as a result.
Dorian and Bull romance
On one occasion, Venatori forces ambushed Dorian, who likely would have died... had not an unnamed mercenary band led by a Tal-Vashoth warrior crossed Tevinter's border and mounted a dangerous rescue operation. The mercenaries left a trail of freed slaves and dead Venatori in their wake, enabling Dorian to escape. When asked about the Tal-Vashoth in question, Magister Pavus declined to comment.
So people's lives were made better by Bull staying with the Chargers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 1:37:04 GMT
I agree that Bull being free from the Qun makes it a better ending in Trespasser. If he's romanced, not only does he travel around with the Chargers, he always wears the dragon tooth necklace to keep his kadan close.
However, if Bull is romanced and still loyal to the Qun, the ending shows the Inquisitor being mocked and humiliated.
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Post by blastoandbubin on Sept 4, 2016 0:42:45 GMT
I found the romanced Qun ending in pretty poor taste, to be honest :/ If I remember right, the whole thing explicitly links Bull's "sexual wiles" to the Inquisitor being duped and betrayed, which is pretty classic deviant bisexual trope stuff, as much as Patrick Weekes doesn't seem to realize it. And then the (possibly bi or gay) Inquisitor is a figure of public mockery for sleeping with the wrong person for who knows how long. Idk, this bisexual was rather disappointed when she saw that slide, I can't lie. It played into some very worn out, nasty ideas, but what can you do. (I don't mind his unromanced betrayal ending, fyi, just that slide with the puppet show left a really sour taste in my mouth.)
His Tal-Vashoth endings are much better all the way around imo, both from an in-game and a real life perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 1:50:07 GMT
I kind of liked the romanced Qun ending. Gave my dwarf something to bond over with Celene, if Celene hadn't been dead that is. At least it gave her more sympathy for players of the Game who made the "error" to fall for the "wrong person". Could have seen a similar thing happening if there was a "closest friend" dynamic, as in if the game could see if the player genuinely liked and trusted Bull and was not just feeding him the lines he wanted to hear. But the romance aspect is always more juicy for the nasty gossips. But then again, I like it when the game is cruel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 3:02:25 GMT
My lady Rift Mage romanced Qun free Iron Bull. That PT was so much fun, because I played her as a carefree person, who didn't give a fucking care if some people (including her family) thought her relationship was scandalous. She was also very fond of the Chargers, her ragtag crazy adopted family.
The thing that I noticed with Qun loyal Bull is he secretly holds a grudge against the Inquisitor after the Chargers are sacrificed. It's like he's wearing a professional mask for the rest of the game, but he's waiting for the right time to get back at the Inquisitor. Hence Trespasser. I haven't yet tried the Qun loyal romance, but I'm tempted to start a new run after I finish my Templar/Blackwall romance PT.
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Post by bardox on Sept 4, 2016 4:28:15 GMT
I'm about to start a DA:I playthrough. Thinking about making a making a Tal-Vashoth mage. Pretty much a big middle finger to the Qun and the Chantry. Not sure if I want to romance Bull or not. I usually leave him alone as I think he and Dorain are just too cute, but still debating how I am going to play this one.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2016 15:56:44 GMT
Just to add fuel to the fire, it seems odd that the Inquisitor suffers ridicule after the betrayal for their relationship with Bull, but Dorian suffers no repercussions whatsoever, either for being in a relationship with a Qunari spy or after being betrayed by them. You can't tell me there aren't Tevinter spies around the place who would have reported back home about that. Then shortly after, the Qun started attacking Tevinter mainland again. IRL his political career would be finished after a scandal like that and the lucerni would have no credibility at all if still connected with him. He'd be lucky not to be lynched considering his country have never not been at war with the Qunari. Yet, apparently there was no backlash for him at all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 19:31:48 GMT
Good point. While the scandal against Dorian is a big deal in Tevinter, it won't be as much for the rest of Thedas. They'll be like, "Oh, that's typical of Tevinter. Let's move on to other things.."
As for the Inquisitor, everyone's going to be talking about him/her, because he/she was the Herald and great hero of Thedas. They'll remember the Inquisitor more than Dorian. It's like this in media (and they're biased) where if something happens in the States or Europe, everyone's talking about it on TV, radio, newspaper and all over social media. If it happens in other places, there's little coverage.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 4, 2016 21:09:42 GMT
The thing that I noticed with Qun loyal Bull is he secretly holds a grudge against the Inquisitor after the Chargers are sacrificed. It's like he's wearing a professional mask for the rest of the game, but he's waiting for the right time to get back at the Inquisitor. Hence Trespasser. Could be. At least it's an interesting theory. Though apparently if Cole is in your party he says "I didn't feel it... there wasn't any pain!" If Bull truly had held a secret grudge against the Inquisitor Cole should have known, no?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 0:17:56 GMT
The thing that I noticed with Qun loyal Bull is he secretly holds a grudge against the Inquisitor after the Chargers are sacrificed. It's like he's wearing a professional mask for the rest of the game, but he's waiting for the right time to get back at the Inquisitor. Hence Trespasser. Could be. At least it's an interesting theory. Though apparently if Cole is in your party he says "I didn't feel it... there wasn't any pain!" If Bull truly had held a secret grudge against the Inquisitor Cole should have known, no? Yes, Cole would've known. But if he was made more human, he wouldn't be able to read people's minds. I thought about the grudge theory on the way Bull reacts after the Chargers died. He slams his fist against the wall when no one's looking. Also, whenever he greets the Inquisitor in the tavern, instead of saying, "Hey boss, how's it going?" he flatly says, "Yes?" To me, that shows something's up with him.
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Post by patriciachr34 on Sept 8, 2016 23:25:35 GMT
Okay, this discussion has cinched it for me. I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever let Bull remain in the Qun. I just can't do that to him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 23:50:04 GMT
Okay, this discussion has cinched it for me. I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever let Bull remain in the Qun. I just can't do that to him. Lee Approves plus 20
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 9, 2016 21:08:39 GMT
Can anyone even come up with a playthrough where it's sensible for the Inquisitor to pursue Qun's '' partnership '' and keep IB in the Qun, while not headcanoning too much? I guess if you're Inquisitor is bad at decision-making, is naive and has no previous knowledge of the Qun. Wait, I think I answered my own question lol.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 1:32:33 GMT
Can anyone even come up with a playthrough where it's sensible for the Inquisitor to pursue Qun's '' partnership '' and keep IB in the Qun, while not headcanoning too much? I guess if you're Inquisitor is bad at decision-making, is naive and has no previous knowledge of the Qun. Wait, I think I answered my own question lol. I can. It is objectively smarter to save the Qun than to save the Chargers. You objectively save more lives and do more damage to your enemy.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 1:34:02 GMT
Can anyone even come up with a playthrough where it's sensible for the Inquisitor to pursue Qun's '' partnership '' and keep IB in the Qun, while not headcanoning too much? I guess if you're Inquisitor is bad at decision-making, is naive and has no previous knowledge of the Qun. Wait, I think I answered my own question lol. I can. It is objectively smarter to save the Qun than to save the Chargers. You objectively save more lives and do more damage to your enemy. The Qun is not a reliable alliance, as I see.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 1:38:15 GMT
I can. It is objectively smarter to save the Qun than to save the Chargers. You objectively save more lives and do more damage to your enemy. The Qun is not a reliable alliance, as I see. Last I checked, the alliance went off without a hitch. They allied with us to stop Corypheus, and we did that thus the alliance was fulfilled. Never in that time did they turn against us. I don't support the Qun's actions in Trespasser, but I don't see what they did as a betrayal. No more so than say the Soviet Union becoming an enemy of the Allies after the defeat of the Axis Nations.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 2:25:01 GMT
The Qun is not a reliable alliance, as I see. Last I checked, the alliance went off without a hitch. They allied with us to stop Corypheus, and we did that thus the alliance was fulfilled. Never in that time did they turn against us. I don't support the Qun's actions in Trespasser, but I don't see what they did as a betrayal. No more so than say the Soviet Union becoming an enemy of the Allies after the defeat of the Axis Nations. At the moment you do not know this. I say it is better to keep away the Qun for as long as possible. I have not yet decided to the keep the dreadnought. It's not about numbers.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 2:29:31 GMT
Last I checked, the alliance went off without a hitch. They allied with us to stop Corypheus, and we did that thus the alliance was fulfilled. Never in that time did they turn against us. I don't support the Qun's actions in Trespasser, but I don't see what they did as a betrayal. No more so than say the Soviet Union becoming an enemy of the Allies after the defeat of the Axis Nations. At the moment you do not know this. I say it is better to keep away the Qun for as long as possible. I have not yet decided to the keep the dreadnought. It's not about numbers. What is it about then? Our mission is to save Thedas from Corypheus. What is more important than saving as many people as possible? Also, by your logic you can't use the 'betrayal' in Trespasser as evidence against the alliance since as you said at the moment you do not know this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 4:02:49 GMT
Anyone who is a true fan of Iron Bull knows that supporting the alliance with the Qun is the wrong choice. I mean anything that ends the "ride" is a no go! 
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