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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 4:04:56 GMT
Anyone who is a true fan of Iron Bull knows that supporting the alliance with the Qun is the wrong choice. I mean anything that ends the "ride" is a no go! An undoubtedly logical reason...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 6:36:56 GMT
Anyone who is a true fan of Iron Bull knows that supporting the alliance with the Qun is the wrong choice. I mean anything that ends the "ride" is a no go! Lucky for me then, since I am no fan of The Iron Bull.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 10, 2016 7:42:00 GMT
I find IB's story more interesting if he remains loyal to the Qun. I also don't care much for the Chargers.
If you don't ally with the Qun you don't get their Ben-Hassrath spies or dreadnoughts. If you do ally with them you only lose one mercenary company. We need all the help against Corypheus that we can get. Alliance with the Qunari is almost unheard of and makes the Inquisition considerably more dangerous.
Their ultimate betrayal was to be expected.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Sept 10, 2016 9:15:33 GMT
So... Haven't played Qun-Bull in Trespasser yet and now after glimpsing some of these posts (which I tried not to read) I'm not sure I can bring myself to do that even though I have one or two runs with it... (I haven't even played his (non-qun) romance in Trespasser yet either.) Imma just say I wasn't keen on Bull's romance at first (not into the "bondage" thing and some typical cringe BioWare dialogue) but it ends on a sweet note that I'm just kinda awww. As it turns out he and my Inq are perfect for each other so that makes it really worthwhile. We may have blinded poor Cullen, but I think it was worth it. Also, this banter frickin' killed me: Cole: He almost says the word sometimes. Katoh. He tastes it in his mouth, sweet release a breath away, tongue tying it tenderly like you tie him. But he doesn't. For you, and for him because it makes it mean more. A fuller feeling, a brighter burst. Iron Bull: Yeah... How's he feel about you saying this in front of everybody? Inq: Bull and I are consenting adults. There's nothing wrong with what we choose to do in bed. Cole: Not always in bed. Sometimes against the wall. Once on the War Table. Dorian: Ha!
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 10, 2016 10:26:31 GMT
I don't actually enjoy IB's romance that much even though I love Bull, but it's the only romance I can pursue with a male character that fits my Inquisitor and my tastes. Dorian is out of the question and so are the ladies.
Mostly I find the romance sour when you proceed onwards to Trespasser. I hate it, it feels like we are still '' just dating '' and our relationship hasn't really developed anywhere, and neither has Bull.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 10, 2016 18:21:50 GMT
Anyone who is a true fan of Iron Bull knows that supporting the alliance with the Qun is the wrong choice. I mean anything that ends the "ride" is a no go! An undoubtedly logical reason... If we need to justify it in a more rational, ruthless manner, the mission right off the start is suspicious. Even Bull isn't quite as confident about how well this is arranged. Too many things that can go wrong. The Qunari can't contribute as much resources beyond information and the Inquisition already has a spy organization. So, is it better to sacrifice specialists that have proven themselves and you know are reliable or let someone else face the consequences of their poor planning? Even if the alliance is null and void, the Qunari still are going to oppose the Venatori. Not the kindest sort of thinking but I can see it going both ways.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 18:47:50 GMT
An undoubtedly logical reason... If we need to justify it in a more rational, ruthless manner, the mission right off the start is suspicious. Even Bull isn't quite as confident about how well this is arranged. Too many things that can go wrong. The Qunari can't contribute as much resources beyond information and the Inquisition already has a spy organization. So, is it better to sacrifice specialists that have proven themselves and you know are reliable or let someone else face the consequences of their poor planning? Even if the alliance is null and void, the Qunari still are going to oppose the Venatori. Not the kindest sort of thinking but I can see it going both ways. Yeah. I realize there are rational reasons to side with the qun, but I don't think it's a good choice if you know how it ends. Which I know is a bit too metagamey for some people. 
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Post by opuspace on Sept 11, 2016 1:45:47 GMT
If we need to justify it in a more rational, ruthless manner, the mission right off the start is suspicious. Even Bull isn't quite as confident about how well this is arranged. Too many things that can go wrong. The Qunari can't contribute as much resources beyond information and the Inquisition already has a spy organization. So, is it better to sacrifice specialists that have proven themselves and you know are reliable or let someone else face the consequences of their poor planning? Even if the alliance is null and void, the Qunari still are going to oppose the Venatori. Not the kindest sort of thinking but I can see it going both ways. Yeah. I realize there are rational reasons to side with the qun, but I don't think it's a good choice if you know how it ends. Which I know is a bit too metagamey for some people.  Oh no, I was giving reasons for why you would save the Chargers that wouldn't be dependent on emotional attachment. In a way, even if the Inquisition loses the alliance, the Qunari for now, are still going to fight the Venatori. It's not like they're going to war with the Inquisitor if you choose to preserve your own men's lives instead of wasting them on an iffy plan the Qunari cooked up.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Sept 11, 2016 3:09:50 GMT
I don't actually enjoy IB's romance that much even though I love Bull, but it's the only romance I can pursue with a male character that fits my Inquisitor and my tastes. Dorian is out of the question and so are the ladies. Mostly I find the romance sour when you proceed onwards to Trespasser. I hate it, it feels like we are still '' just dating '' and our relationship hasn't really developed anywhere, and neither has Bull. I've been indifferent towards Bull. I think he's funny and a good/interesting character, but there just wasn't that click like with some others. His romance also isn't to my personal taste/favorite but in rp terms with this particular Inq it was. idk. Even I'm surprised by how well they pair together because it's not as though I planned for it to happen that way. For that reason I find the experience a bit special. (And I have a soft spot for this Inquisitor.) I have worried about the more "casual" tone of the relationship, as that's something that this Inq is not into. I can see how Bull will be different than other LIs so it's not like I expect him to be like them, but the lack of just that something more is disappointing (making the necklace for him was a nice moment). Then again, I'm a sucker for fluff. It seemed like it was headed in a good direction by the end, though... pre-Trespasser which I still haven't played with this romance.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 11, 2016 13:15:19 GMT
I don't actually enjoy IB's romance that much even though I love Bull, but it's the only romance I can pursue with a male character that fits my Inquisitor and my tastes. Dorian is out of the question and so are the ladies. Mostly I find the romance sour when you proceed onwards to Trespasser. I hate it, it feels like we are still '' just dating '' and our relationship hasn't really developed anywhere, and neither has Bull. I've been indifferent towards Bull. I think he's funny and a good/interesting character, but there just wasn't that click like with some others. His romance also isn't to my personal taste/favorite but in rp terms with this particular Inq it was. idk. Even I'm surprised by how well they pair together because it's not as though I planned for it to happen that way. For that reason I find the experience a bit special. (And I have a soft spot for this Inquisitor.) I have worried about the more "casual" tone of the relationship, as that's something that this Inq is not into. I can see how Bull will be different than other LIs so it's not like I expect him to be like them, but the lack of just that something more is disappointing (making the necklace for him was a nice moment). Then again, I'm a sucker for fluff. It seemed like it was headed in a good direction by the end, though... pre-Trespasser which I still haven't played with this romance.IB's romance in Vanilla DA:I is GREAT, but they REALLY drop the ball in Trespasser. And I'm not talking about the betrayal, no, that's pretty great actually if you choose to keep IB in the Qun, well what do you expect really. The biggest problem is how keeping him in the Qun or saving the Chargers has no real effect on the relationship or the character development of Bull in Trespasser, outside of the betrayal/not betraying. IB will always be the number one companion I turn to when it comes to romance, but I'm also super critical of it. I love it but I hate it. He is also super hot so that helps as well
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Post by Catilina on Sept 11, 2016 15:10:11 GMT
Yeah. I realize there are rational reasons to side with the qun, but I don't think it's a good choice if you know how it ends. Which I know is a bit too metagamey for some people. Oh no, I was giving reasons for why you would save the Chargers that wouldn't be dependent on emotional attachment. In a way, even if the Inquisition loses the alliance, the Qunari for now, are still going to fight the Venatori. It's not like they're going to war with the Inquisitor if you choose to preserve your own men's lives instead of wasting them on an iffy plan the Qunari cooked up. I think, the alliance with qun may a pragmatic choice, but I'm a bit squeamish to make an alliance with them. Behind the logical(-like) thinking is a hard oppression, with brainwashing. I think, its unacceptable, as alliance too. But maybe it's just me, and my my excessive demands. (What kind of system is one in which anyone thinks, the best way to his own calm, the brainwashing? This is terrible!)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 6:33:30 GMT
Yeah. I realize there are rational reasons to side with the qun, but I don't think it's a good choice if you know how it ends. Which I know is a bit too metagamey for some people. Oh no, I was giving reasons for why you would save the Chargers that wouldn't be dependent on emotional attachment. In a way, even if the Inquisition loses the alliance, the Qunari for now, are still going to fight the Venatori. It's not like they're going to war with the Inquisitor if you choose to preserve your own men's lives instead of wasting them on an iffy plan the Qunari cooked up. Oh okay. I see what you mean now. I totally agree with that train of thought.
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Post by Artemis on Sept 24, 2016 20:45:20 GMT
I don't actually enjoy IB's romance that much even though I love Bull, but it's the only romance I can pursue with a male character that fits my Inquisitor and my tastes. Dorian is out of the question and so are the ladies. Mostly I find the romance sour when you proceed onwards to Trespasser. I hate it, it feels like we are still '' just dating '' and our relationship hasn't really developed anywhere, and neither has Bull. Yeah that pretty much sums up my experience. I'm hopeful I'll find at least one option I really like for the next game. (Luckily I love Mass Effect enough that even if ME:A gives me no good romance I'll still love it. DA isn't quite up there for me.) And as for Trespasser, yeah, it's a bit lame that some relationships go so far as to get MARRIED!! and yet others are just sort of in limbo / still dating / etc. (I'm no Dorian fan but I weep for Dorianmancers... that's total bullshit!!!) They were super big on unequal romances this go round. Not sure why... possibly over-responding to the critique of DA2. EDIT: It would be nice for a m/m romance to get a squishy happily ever after romantic ending.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 24, 2016 23:08:05 GMT
I don't actually enjoy IB's romance that much even though I love Bull, but it's the only romance I can pursue with a male character that fits my Inquisitor and my tastes. Dorian is out of the question and so are the ladies. Mostly I find the romance sour when you proceed onwards to Trespasser. I hate it, it feels like we are still '' just dating '' and our relationship hasn't really developed anywhere, and neither has Bull. Yeah that pretty much sums up my experience. I'm hopeful I'll find at least one option I really like for the next game. (Luckily I love Mass Effect enough that even if ME:A gives me no good romance I'll still love it. DA isn't quite up there for me.) And as for Trespasser, yeah, it's a bit lame that some relationships go so far as to get MARRIED!! and yet others are just sort of in limbo / still dating / etc. (I'm no Dorian fan but I weep for Dorianmancers... that's total bullshit!!!) They were super big on unequal romances this go round. Not sure why... possibly over-responding to the critique of DA2. EDIT: It would be nice for a m/m romance to get a squishy happily ever after romantic ending. True, I agree on everything. In truth, all the romances are at least decent until you get to Trespasser, where everyone's romance was more or less ignored and sidestepped. I know romance isn't the main part of the game, but if you're going to include romancing, you better believe people are going to romance, and expect that you don't half-ass it.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 24, 2016 23:33:45 GMT
I've honestly been such a critical bastard towards DA:I romances (to the point I'm remaking my canon Inquisitor who doesn't romance anyone) and I think I'm going sour, I should really look at the positives.
What I love about Bull is that scene where you're lying in bed with him, and you get the last conversation wheel, and you pick the '' We'll be together until the end '' and you only slightly hint at the possibility that you might not make it out alive while saving Thedas, Bull immediately says '' katoh! '' and can't even bare the thought of losing you. It's so sweet, and honestly shows Bull's true colors underneath all the humor and sleaziness.
I also love, when you are romancing him as a Reaver, when you've officially jumped into a relationship with him, he starts smelling you and says how incredibly hot I smell. And then he asks why I became a Reaver, you can flirt and say '' maybe I wanted to smell good to you '' and he says something like '' no, don't do that, don't change yourself for me '' and that was honestly so good, SO GOOD.
I do love Bull despite all his flaws (those flaws being mostly in Trespasser. FUCK TRESPASSER AND IT'S PITIFUL HANDLING OF ROMANCES!!!!!!). Bull is my no.1 man. Though I'd replace him with Blackwall if I could romance him, but that won't happen, so he is my no.1!
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Post by opuspace on Sept 25, 2016 2:13:18 GMT
Those moments are great Witchcoktor! It's perfect for Inquisitors who don't want it to be treated like a joke! There's also that moment when the Inquisitor gives Bull the necklace of the Kadan, Bull looks like he's about to cry. It makes me want to hug him because I wonder how many times did Bull accomodate other people but never had anyone do something special for him after sex without expectations of getting something in return? Bull definitely has a tender side, it's just hidden behind the casual attitude.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 25, 2016 12:11:06 GMT
Ah, yes, that's a really touching moment too. Sadly, Trespasser failed to deliver any touching moments *salty*
Now that I think about it, Bull romance in vanilla DA:I was really great. I think a cutscene after What Pride Had Wrought should've been added though.. Or at least some romance specific lines added to whatever last conversation you can have with him? I'm not sure if it had any.
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Post by Artemis on Sept 25, 2016 18:39:03 GMT
Overall I liked Bull's romance  Enough to be okay with making it my canon. Things i would have added/changed though: 1. Make the BDSM optional. In a way I like that it is there, as I learn more and more about Bull's character (and think more and more on him and who he is and where he's come from). But strictly from a game mechanics point of view, if they are going to limit our options, then our choices shouldn't fit such narrow little niches. Perhaps when he first asks if we're okay with it, and we say no, then he would say he's not interested. But eventually he comes around because, you know, he's falling for you. Or perhaps it's part of the relationship initially but the inquisitor has a chance to talk to him about it, how it makes them uncomfortable, but that they care for Bull a lot. Something like that. Then those who enjoy it can certainly keep it. 2. Either remove the joke scene, where all the advisors react to naked Bull or give us a chance to react to it. My inquisitor would have been embarrassed. I mean, it is a pretty embarrassing situation. But mostly we just stand there. 3. A more affectionate greeting after the final battle. 4. Something that shows we're solidifying the relationship, are serious about each other, and ready to fully commit in Trespasser. I think if other characters get to do this, then Bull should, too. Again, game mechanics. I understand making every romanceable character unique - that's important. But if I want to get married, it seems unfair that I have to play a certain gender or race. Basically, if my gay male elf wants to get married, he's SOL. Same for a straight qunari woman. And so on and so on. You should at least be able to have the conversation with your S.O. The S.O. could admit they're not comfortable with the idea, but it would be a serious conversation... not a fly by half-hearted couple of lines. Overall I think it is a pretty good romance; I think Bull can be quite fluffy, and he really does love you. I just hope next time for a more "serious" relationship and not one so focused on sex. (I am fine with sex playing a part in the relationship; I'm a Zevran- and Fenris- and Isabela-romancer, but romance is way more important for me, and the in-depth discussion on HOW we're having sex [who's on top, how kinky is it, etc.] is so not my cup of tea.)
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 26, 2016 0:18:15 GMT
I honestly never even acknowledge the BDSM part of the relationship. I mostly always headcanon that my Inquisitors are dominant bottoms and completely overwhelm Bull under their spell. And the conversations about the BDSM aspect mostly just go in one ear and out the other lol. But I can definitely see how it can be bothersome to some players. And my problem with it is just that it's completely irrelevant to the romance and the story, and it feels just so freaking weird to include the BDSM aspect to the relationship. I don't think anybody asked for it? I mean, you could just headcanon the relationship as a BDSM one if you wanted to... Oh well, whatever.
Otherwise I mostly agree with your changes.
My suggestions that would better the romance would be
1) One cutscene after What Pride Had Wrought, a more serious, heartfelt conversation with Bull on the battlements. Maybe slight alterations on the dialogue whether or not you sacrificed the Chargers.
2) Two routes for Bull on Trespasser qun!Bull -> remains the same as the current, a bit distant, jokey Bull, who is reluctant to marry the Inquisitor even after all the years have passed. talvashoth!Bull -> as he drifts away from the strangling grasp of the Qun, starts opening his mind and heart to the ways of other non-Qun Thedosians. The dialogue in Trespasser is more loving, and there's talk about love instead of sex toys in the first cutscene, or he diverts the discussion from sex to something more meaningful. After he receives his present from the chargers, he tells his kadan that he has a surprise from them as well, and he asks their hand in marriage. He shows slight disdain towards Qun. His reaction towards his kadan possibly dying soon would be more heartwrenching and emotional, as he tries to completely reject the possibility of his partner dying. The ending slide would show him and his kadan traveling together.
All this would be proof of how the Qun poisons one mind, and how getting away from Qun actually had an affect on Bull, rather than it being allll the same whether you saved the chargers or not.
Those are the only two changes I really would've liked.
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Post by Artemis on Sept 26, 2016 1:22:22 GMT
talvashoth!Bull -> as he drifts away from the strangling grasp of the Qun, starts opening his mind and heart to the ways of other non-Qun Thedosians. The dialogue in Trespasser is more loving, and there's talk about love instead of sex toys in the first cutscene, or he diverts the discussion from sex to something more meaningful. After he receives his present from the chargers, he tells his kadan that he has a surprise from them as well, and he asks their hand in marriage. He shows slight disdain towards Qun. His reaction towards his kadan possibly dying soon would be more heartwrenching and emotional, as he tries to completely reject the possibility of his partner dying. The ending slide would show him and his kadan traveling together. Heeee  I get butterflies just reading that. Sigh. If only!
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Post by opuspace on Sept 26, 2016 5:24:08 GMT
Ah, yes, that's a really touching moment too. Sadly, Trespasser failed to deliver any touching moments *salty* Now that I think about it, Bull romance in vanilla DA:I was really great. I think a cutscene after What Pride Had Wrought should've been added though.. Or at least some romance specific lines added to whatever last conversation you can have with him? I'm not sure if it had any. I agree, there was something there that felt like it could have used an extra scene instead of just a dialogue mention. I know that Bull will ask if you're ok if you drink from the well of sorrows but it's done in a kind of casual way even though I know it's meant to be actual concern. It's nice at least to know Bull stays devoted to just the Inquisitor when he tells Cassandra that he'd be willing to help her get rid of her stress but he's taken. What kind of scene would you have liked with him? EDIT: ACK!! Responded before reading further! Shame on me!
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Post by opuspace on Sept 26, 2016 5:29:07 GMT
Ok, different question then, if there was a chance for marriage, how would you like it to go between Bull and the Inquisitor?
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Post by Artemis on Sept 26, 2016 5:52:01 GMT
Ok, different question then, if there was a chance for marriage, how would you like it to go between Bull and the Inquisitor? You guys are talking, maybe after the gift scene, and Bull is talking about the Chargers and what they mean to him, and talk turns to you guys and your relationship, and what that means. Inquisitor: Have you ever thought about... I mean, what we have together. It... means a lot to me. Bull: *smiles, and in that gentle, affectionate voice he sometimes has* It means a lot to me, too, Kadan. Inquisitor: So... what if we... you know, made it official? Bull: *looks suddenly wary* Just what exactly are you hinting at? Inquisitor: I know people don't get married in the Qun. But you're not in the Qun anymore. You're... well, you. And we're us, and... we can follow our own rules when it comes to this sort of thing, right? Bull: If you're asking what I think you're asking-- Inquisitor: Will you marry me? Bull: ... Inquisitor: ... Bull: Wow. You're blushing. Inquisitor: *annoyed* I am not! Bull: *laughs* Are, too. Well. This is all coming out of the blue, don't you think? What brought this on? Inquisitor: Are you going to answer the question or not? Bull: *looks surprised* Easy there, kadan. I will, I will. It's just... *shifts uncomfortably* I suppose I never really thought about it. Inquisitor: Do you want to be with anyone besides me? Bull: Of course not! Haven't I already proven that to you? Inquisitor: It's not about proving anything. Bull: Then what IS it about? Inquisitor: I don't know. *looks away, frowning* Look, it's fine. If you don't want to-- Bull: Hey now. Who said I didn't want to? *puts his hand on your cheek, bringing your eyes back to his* If it means that much to you. Then yes, I'll marry you. * * * AAAAND I would totally break the word budget hahaha
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Post by opuspace on Sept 26, 2016 13:51:38 GMT
Yes! That's the conversation that I'd want for a serious moment with Bull! And it could be tweaked during Trespasser!
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 26, 2016 14:25:23 GMT
Ah, yes, that's a really touching moment too. Sadly, Trespasser failed to deliver any touching moments *salty* Now that I think about it, Bull romance in vanilla DA:I was really great. I think a cutscene after What Pride Had Wrought should've been added though.. Or at least some romance specific lines added to whatever last conversation you can have with him? I'm not sure if it had any. I agree, there was something there that felt like it could have used an extra scene instead of just a dialogue mention. I know that Bull will ask if you're ok if you drink from the well of sorrows but it's done in a kind of casual way even though I know it's meant to be actual concern. It's nice at least to know Bull stays devoted to just the Inquisitor when he tells Cassandra that he'd be willing to help her get rid of her stress but he's taken. What kind of scene would you have liked with him? EDIT: ACK!! Responded before reading further! Shame on me! Honestly I was still jealous when Bull flirted with Cassandra that I sent Cassandra away and replaced her with someone else. And regarding the marriage suggestion, let me just post one of my fav IB pictures. sourceThat's what I wanted. But now that I think about it, maybe I just want Iron Bull to be something he is not lol. Like, a totally emotional guy under the jokey, sexual, tough exterior. And he kinda is, but I wanted more of that emotional guy. Oh well, Bull is great either way, even if the romance is bollocks in Trespasser.
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