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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 19:56:05 GMT
its quite simple really, the other endings enjoy popularity levels on par with US Congresses
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 26, 2017 20:22:01 GMT
Agreed. Otherwise, I'd have to figure out how the Alliance managed to go from not believing aliens exist to having some of the most advanced and powerful warships, plus having a spot on the Council, all within the span of ~30 years. I choose to ignore how that doesn't make any sense and just enjoy the game. Both of you seem to misunderstand the concept of suspension of belief. Suspension of belief is that there exists a magical element that allows laws of physics to be side stepped. Suspension of belief is that a 3 man squad can take on and kill enemies that would require dozens of normal soldiers to kill. And this is why I don't argue with you. You decide for us how we have to think. I'm not okay with that.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 8:38:24 GMT
Both of you seem to misunderstand the concept of suspension of belief. Suspension of belief is that there exists a magical element that allows laws of physics to be side stepped. Suspension of belief is that a 3 man squad can take on and kill enemies that would require dozens of normal soldiers to kill. Suspension of disbelief is the audiences' ability to ignore unrealistic claims because those claims are supported by narrative elements. Suspension of disbelief ends when the audience no longer believes those claims to be true/accurate/cohesive/etc. There is nothing magical about using your own imagination... :/
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 8:59:38 GMT
@op I don't support a canon ending. There is no need for one. The entire triology was built off of the idea of choice... best it stays that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 13:43:54 GMT
@op I don't support a canon ending. There is no need for one. The entire triology was built off of the idea of choice... best it stays that way. If there ever is a Milky Way sequel, there may need to be a sole import that it is based on. The results of the endings diverge too much for them all to be accommodated in a single sequel. The only alternative would to the single import route would be to have them all carry over but for the results to be heavily changed so that it's possible to squeeze them all into a single game. Destroy might have a synthesized future anyway for example, or Synthesis might end with life reverting back to its natural unaltered state, or in Control and Synthesis the Reapers are equally gone. Ect, ect. That the results of all three endings can't be fit into a single sequel in a way that will satisfy everyone, is likely why the next game in the lineup is set in Andromeda. The writers painted themselves into a corner with ME3's endings.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 15:01:09 GMT
I don't know if "painted into a corner" is an accurate assessment. The Milky Way story has concluded. Why bother trying to revisit it? Moving to a new galaxy is the proper direction to take the franchise. And after the Andromeda trilogy (or whatever), Bioware could just pack up and move to another galaxy.
And I'm fine with that.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 15:56:26 GMT
Both of you seem to misunderstand the concept of suspension of belief. Suspension of belief is that there exists a magical element that allows laws of physics to be side stepped. Suspension of belief is that a 3 man squad can take on and kill enemies that would require dozens of normal soldiers to kill. Suspension of disbelief is the audiences' ability to ignore unrealistic claims because those claims are supported by narrative elements. Suspension of disbelief ends when the audience no longer believes those claims to be true/accurate/cohesive/etc. There is nothing magical about using your own imagination... :/ And yet there is nothing supporting the narrative elements. Because the world they have created the world that ME:A is taking place has already established the base line. The entire basis of ME:A's story defies the already defined universe. Defying all narrative logic to support it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 16:00:27 GMT
Both of you seem to misunderstand the concept of suspension of belief. Suspension of belief is that there exists a magical element that allows laws of physics to be side stepped. Suspension of belief is that a 3 man squad can take on and kill enemies that would require dozens of normal soldiers to kill. And this is why I don't argue with you. You decide for us how we have to think. I'm not okay with that. No when you try to use a well established term and concept to defend your statement that is what I have a problem with. That is exactly what I did when you attempt to use suspension of belief to support your reason. I never attacked your way of thinking. I went after your attempt to justify it by using suspension of belief argument. Because it isn't suspension of belief to allow something that defy the already defined rules of the galaxy. Those rules of which are already a suspension of belief on their own.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 27, 2017 16:09:04 GMT
Control would actually preseve the status quo the best and thus provide the closest ME "feel". Reapers would obviously be hands off/gone to do their own thing (see my control thread). Relays would be rebuilt the fastest, everyone would be alive and unchanged.
Synthesis is the most divergent (and the true culprit behind why you can't just roll up the ending consequences together). It's not just about painting green TRON lines on everybody. With what it implies, the entire galaxy should change/evolve/upgrade/whatever at an exponential rate. In even a few decades the result should be unrecognizable.
Destroy, you maybe get human Shepard back. That's about it.
Of course, fuck setting canon. But yeah, Control would actually be the best candidate for a setting where they just do the same thing over and over.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 27, 2017 16:10:44 GMT
And this is why I don't argue with you. You decide for us how we have to think. I'm not okay with that. No when you try to use a well established term and concept to defend your statement that is what I have a problem with. That is exactly what I did when you attempt to use suspension of belief to support your reason. I never attacked your way of thinking. I went after your attempt to justify it by using suspension of belief argument. Because it isn't suspension of belief to allow something that defy the already defined rules of the galaxy. Those rules of which are already a suspension of belief on their own. The term you're using isn't actually a thing. If you're going to argue I'm misusing something then at least learn the proper term. It's "suspension of DISbelief". And, frankly, I don't care if you buy my argument or not. I'm just as okay with it as I am with believing that yellow sun rays can make a person fly, see through objects and shoot lasers from his eyes. Frankly, that's just as ridiculous as anything seen in ME.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 16:20:31 GMT
Suspension of disbelief is the audiences' ability to ignore unrealistic claims because those claims are supported by narrative elements. Suspension of disbelief ends when the audience no longer believes those claims to be true/accurate/cohesive/etc. There is nothing magical about using your own imagination... :/ And yet there is nothing supporting the narrative elements. Because the world they have created the world that ME:A is taking place has already established the base line. The entire basis of ME:A's story defies the already defined universe. Defying all narrative logic to support it. ... and yet in this dictionary.com definition of "suspension of disbelief" there is no mention of it necessarily being supported by anything other than a persons willingness to do so "for the sake of enjoyment." www.dictionary.com/browse/suspension-of-disbelief
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 16:44:52 GMT
No when you try to use a well established term and concept to defend your statement that is what I have a problem with. That is exactly what I did when you attempt to use suspension of belief to support your reason. I never attacked your way of thinking. I went after your attempt to justify it by using suspension of belief argument. Because it isn't suspension of belief to allow something that defy the already defined rules of the galaxy. Those rules of which are already a suspension of belief on their own. The term you're using isn't actually a thing. If you're going to argue I'm misusing something then at least learn the proper term. It's "suspension of DISbelief". And, frankly, I don't care if you buy my argument or not. I'm just as okay with it as I am with believing that yellow sun rays can make a person fly, see through objects and shoot lasers from his eyes. Frankly, that's just as ridiculous as anything seen in ME. I don't buy your abuse of the term to try to validate your statement. Yes the basis of Superman is that he has all these magical capabilities and it is only possible because of the Yellow sun. How ever Andromeda and what it is pulling is the equivalent of a Superman Comic showing for a dozen comics showing Superman being weakened and almost killed by Kryptonite. Then suddenly comic #13 not only is Superman not negatively effected by Kryptonite. But it actually increase his strength and capabilities 3 fold. No alternate dimensions no new times line no new universe for these events to take place in. One moment Lex is almost killing him with a Krypotnie shard. The next minute he is hanging a kryptonite shard around his neck to boost is capabilities. That is exactly what Andromeda is doing. They set the stage they set Superman's strengths, capabilities and weakness. Then they just flip the board and decide to ignore all their established lore and create new ones while just vaugly justifying it that still doesn't fit into the world you have already build and established.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 27, 2017 16:47:58 GMT
gothpunkboy89: What part of "I don't care if you buy it" are you missing?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 16:53:25 GMT
gothpunkboy89 : What part of "I don't care if you buy it" are you missing? Because I'm not going to be the only one thinking this and ME 3 already got a metric ton of shit for the apparent inconsistency within it's story line. ME:A is setting it self up to fail by following the same problems as ME 3 only even worse and more glaring then before.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2017 17:54:48 GMT
Why not talk about the Andromeda stuff in the Andromeda section?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 18:26:06 GMT
Why not talk about the Andromeda stuff in the Andromeda section? Because I feel a canon ending should have been made simply to allow Andromeda to continue to a new story and new place to explore in a reasonable way that is a logical next step.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2017 18:29:14 GMT
Then make a thread about that in the Andromeda section
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 27, 2017 18:44:38 GMT
Ah, you're looking quite mechanically at the concept of suspend disbelief Gothpunk. It's a term that refers to accepting something as long as you believe it is good or you can accept that it isn't 100% accurate despite knowing that it isn't.
It sounds like your description is in reverse, that the suspension of disbelief IS the inconsistency.
And if someone decides they can't suspend their disbelief any longer it might be because something happens that they aren't compelled to believe in. If it happens late in a story it means there is something occurring that makes their belief in the fiction shatter and they can no longer be as immersed in it or as unquestioning of its plausibility as they used to be. If many lose their suspension of disbelief at the same point and there are really, really many, most likely that is a telltale sign that he authors DID do something wrong.
The mistake was the ending and to some its the Andromeda initiative. In my book there is a gap of lost suspension of disbelief between the ending and the launch of Andromeda but that's all because of that ending, and I expect once you cross that gap, the suspension of disbelief returns for most. I had the same break of suspend disbelief in the opening sequence of ME3. too much change in too short time. Why isn't Shepard on Arcturus, who is James, why is Earth so important to save if reapers are everywhere and why is my Shepard so renegade without my dialogue prompts appearing??
Once the game got going that dislike toned down and I felt like it was bringing back the continuity I felt had been lost for a moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 19:11:20 GMT
Ah, you're looking quite mechanically at the concept of suspend disbelief Gothpunk. It's a term that refers to accepting something as long as you believe it is good or you can accept that it isn't 100% accurate despite knowing that it isn't. It sounds like your description is in reverse, that the suspension of disbelief IS the inconsistency. And if someone decides they can't suspend their disbelief any longer it might be because something happens that they aren't compelled to believe in. If it happens late in a story it means there is something occurring that makes their belief in the fiction shatter and they can no longer be as immersed in it or as unquestioning of its plausibility as they used to be. If many lose their suspension of disbelief at the same point and there are really, really many, most likely that is a telltale sign that he authors DID do something wrong. The mistake was the ending and to some its the Andromeda initiative. In my book there is a gap of lost suspension of disbelief between the ending and the launch of Andromeda but that's all because of that ending, and I expect once you cross that gap, the suspension of disbelief returns for most. I had the same break of suspend disbelief in the opening sequence of ME3. too much change in too short time. Why isn't Shepard on Arcturus, who is James, why is Earth so important to save if reapers are everywhere and why is my Shepard so renegade without my dialogue prompts appearing?? Once the game got going that dislike toned down and I felt like it was bringing back the continuity I felt had been lost for a moment. Actually, suspension of disbelief is literally about "suspending" (i.e. setting aside) your disbelief in something; that is, you know it's not logical or real, but you decide to overlook that in order to enjoy the performance, game, movie, etc. First coined in reference to, I believe, performances by magicians... logically not believing in magic but deciding to go along with it in order to enjoy or facilitate the performance of the magician. You can believe that it's 100% illogical and still decide to go along with it. What Bioware really misjudged with the ME3 endings was the willingness of the audience to go along with them.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 20:16:12 GMT
Well, to be fair there are two variations on the term. One places the onus on the author to create a believable story, while the more modern variation is the audience's ability to actually belief it (knowing full well it is fiction). The term was originally coined by Samuel Coolridge in 1817. And in full disclosure, I'm not smart enough to have known that off hand... I used the power of the internet to do a minute of research...
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 27, 2017 20:16:40 GMT
Ah, you're looking quite mechanically at the concept of suspend disbelief Gothpunk. It's a term that refers to accepting something as long as you believe it is good or you can accept that it isn't 100% accurate despite knowing that it isn't. It sounds like your description is in reverse, that the suspension of disbelief IS the inconsistency. And if someone decides they can't suspend their disbelief any longer it might be because something happens that they aren't compelled to believe in. If it happens late in a story it means there is something occurring that makes their belief in the fiction shatter and they can no longer be as immersed in it or as unquestioning of its plausibility as they used to be. If many lose their suspension of disbelief at the same point and there are really, really many, most likely that is a telltale sign that he authors DID do something wrong. The mistake was the ending and to some its the Andromeda initiative. In my book there is a gap of lost suspension of disbelief between the ending and the launch of Andromeda but that's all because of that ending, and I expect once you cross that gap, the suspension of disbelief returns for most. I had the same break of suspend disbelief in the opening sequence of ME3. too much change in too short time. Why isn't Shepard on Arcturus, who is James, why is Earth so important to save if reapers are everywhere and why is my Shepard so renegade without my dialogue prompts appearing?? Once the game got going that dislike toned down and I felt like it was bringing back the continuity I felt had been lost for a moment. The thing is they already created the rules of the universe. My suspension of disbelief exists to support that universe they have sculpted and build. To then take that existing and sculpted universe and then so blatantly and hideously defy the logic of that universe to the point it no longer fits in is a problem. Particularly when the solution to the problem is so ungodly simple there is no logical reason not to take it. In this case simply have ME:A take place after ME 3 during a preselected time line. Doesn't even have to be official canon. Simply this game exists if X, Y and Z choices were made. A What If scenario so to speak. Instead they try to force the thing into the universe that makes no sense and breaks the suspension of disbelieving that was created to accept the universe. Instead they try to force the Andromeda Initiative. Something that would require a ton of scientific advances and massive funding to have taken off during the few month gap between ME 2 and ME 3. Never mind that simply the construction of the SR-1 Normandy was seen as a massive financial cost to build one ship. And yet private funding was some how able to build not one but several massive Ark ships that have the capabilities to house and sustain hundreds if not thousands of people needed to keep a viable gene pool. Not just for one race but for multiple. And the supplies (building/machining/food/water) to sustain them while they were building or forging for new food. Which could easily be months before they find food that wasn't toxic to them. Even worse for Turian or Quarian who can't even eat the same food as Asari, Human or Salarian. Not to mention stasis is considered Prothean level tech (AKA more advanced then current race) technology that they not only mastered but out right improved on because the Protheans on Ilos despite being the smartest Protheans in existence were only able to keep their stasis pod running for a couple hundred years. And yet here are a handful of ships capable of keeping hundreds in stasis for 500 years. Not to mention to even achieve the distance traveled in 500 years they would need to keep the ME field active. And that would cause the static build up on the hull requiring them to discharge every 4 days. Over coming that limitation is a massive technological advancement on par with creating a jet engine for interstellar travel. It very heavily focuses an AI as the controller of the human Ark. Even though at this point AI's are still every big the boogey man they were in ME 1. As far as the galaxy know AI's rebelled against the Quarains nearly killing them. Then launched an all out assult on the Citadel killing hundreds of thousands of people. There is no reconciliation between the boogeyman AI's are and the potential for peaceful coexistence yet. That doesn't happen till ME 3. Legion and his actions are only know about by Shepard and Crew as well as a few higher ups in the Alliance and other government that Garrus, Tali or Liara might have talked to. So people willing letting an AI literally controlling if they live or die while in stasis for 500 years doesn't make any sense. Hence why I go back to Superman example. If they build the universe Superman exists in that tells you that Superman gets his powers because of the yellow sun. And is weakened/killed if exposed to kryponite. Your disbelief is suspended to accept that universe. When in that same universe suddenly Superman now get's his powers from the belife in children and now kryponite power him up. For no explained reason. His powers and weakness suddenly just randomly shift. For no adequately explained reasons. How do you think the people who buy that comic book would react? For a real world example look no further then Man of Steel or Batman Vs Superman. Both movies get shit on and a metric ton of negative reviews because they altered the universe those characters exist in. Even though the changes were given adequate reasons and explanations for changes. The fact that Zack Snyder in many ways threw out the continuity of that universe to tell his own story got people in an uproar over it. Even now you can find areas that people mention it or use BvS as the punchline of a joke because of how bad it is. Hence why canon ending needs to be taken. And while I find all 3 endings are very viable set ups to allow Andromeda to continue. Destroy would be the one that has the least amount of people getting butt hurt over their choice not being accepted. Or at least they tend to be the more vocal ones. Even though I personally find Destroy to be the most over simplified and boring ending possible.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 20:32:21 GMT
^ I stopped reading this after the third paragraph, but what I did read I actually kinda agree with. However, I'm much more comfortable with trying to swallow that pill then the one you're proposing. The hot mess of placing the Andromeda Initiative after the events of ME3 would very likely end up disenfranchising me.
I think Bioware made the right call, no matter how ludicrous it seems.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:37:12 GMT
Well, to be fair there are two variations on the term. One places the onus on the author to create a believable story, while the more modern variation is the audience's ability to actually belief it (knowing full well it is fiction). The term was originally coined by Samuel Coolridge in 1817. And in full disclosure, I'm not smart enough to have known that off hand... I used the power of the internet to do a minute of research... I see some real problems with what you're calling the modern variation of the term. I see the implication of having to "actually believe" something that I know is a fiction is an oxymoron to say the least... and I am just unwilling to suspend my disbelief in that statement.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:39:00 GMT
I don't know if "painted into a corner" is an accurate assessment. The Milky Way story has concluded. Why bother trying to revisit it? Moving to a new galaxy is the proper direction to take the franchise. And after the Andromeda trilogy (or whatever), Bioware could just pack up and move to another galaxy. And I'm fine with that. The Milky Way is so vast that it takes light 100,000 years to travel across it, and it may contain as many as 100 to 400 billion stars, most of which likely have orbiting planets. Andromeda is even larger, about 220,000 light years across in diameter, with an estimated 1 trillion stars. Neither setting in the ME games could ever come close to giving the player an experience where it should feel like they've seen it all. Even in-universe very little of the Milky Way was explored. There was a codex entry in ME3 that stated the Council only has explored 1% of the galaxy, or something to that effect. I'm fine with the move to Andromeda, but it was obviously done for no other reason than to avoid having to deal with the endings to ME3. There's plenty of room for additional stories after ME:A in either the Milky Way or Andromeda, without needing to keep shifting the setting to new galaxies.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 27, 2017 20:40:28 GMT
edited for clarity ... forging for new food. Which could easily be months before they find food that wasn't toxic to them. Even worse for Turian or Quarian who can't even eat the same food as Asari, Human or Salarian. This was actually grossly exaggerated in the game. Humans consume so many dextro-based foods everyday without any issue. Turians and quarians should likewise have <edit>no issue eating levo-based foods. It is the one bit of lore I wish they would just retcon, because unlike all the technobabble, this one has real world science behind it.
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