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Post by guanxi on Jan 27, 2017 22:44:54 GMT
"If a machine can speak... kill it." - Javik.
I'm also a subscriber to Javik's golden rule. I think the heavy-handed robo-esotericism / ending debacle has also soured my views on A.I. in the Mass Effect series permanently. The inclusion of S.A.M. I feel is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable and once again challenge your views on A.I. but it just pisses me off. My mind is made up. I want no part of it, don't want it in my body and if given half a chance I will butcher it in retaliation for ME3's butchered ending. For Javik!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 23:19:15 GMT
It's an AI in the ME universe. What do we know about that so far, especially AI's implanted in organics in any form? Zha'til, Overlord, you name it. What "Organic and inorganic blended together" would be, is open for interpretation, and honestly for me it's enough to know it collects data about me to say I wouldn't want that thing in my body. Honestly, I have an app on my phone that lets me input the foods I consume, track how much walking I do and check my heart rate. What SAM will be doing is a step up from that and probably just a few years away from being a reality. It's fine if you don't care for it. I don't see this as trolling but perhaps you're open to seeing what others think of it come March 21st before making a final decision? The AI in the real world and the ones in ME-Universe aren't the same thing. You know what your App does, can control it or shut it off. An AI in MEU is self thinking and self acting, and you don't have any control over it. I can't treat it as a simple program and I'm not ready to treat it as a person. So how I am supposed to play my character in this roleplay game is a mystery to me. I haven't made a final decision as there is still the multiplayer part (which I loved in ME3). But I really doubt I will like the story if S.A.M will have a bigger role in it.
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Post by Raga on Jan 28, 2017 0:18:02 GMT
Not nearly as emotional about it as OP and it won't stop me from playing the game, but I agree. I'm really tired of the tranhumanism sermon. And that's what Starchild was. A transhumanism sermon. Somebody at Bioware spends way too much time listening to the likes of Elon Musk, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Steven Hawking, et al and assuming that just because they are brilliant at business or astrophysics or whatever they also must also be oracles and experts on existential mumbo-jumbo. A lot of these guys are drunk on their own intelligence and full of arrogant psuedo-science. "I really liked reading Neuromancer and 2001 a Space Odyssey and I'm a smart guy: Therefore it must be true and cogent!" Too many TED talks watched, not even boring, mundane science read. www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/10/silicon-valley-is-obsessed-with-a-false-notion-of-reality/503963/www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/diversity-and-its-limits/510818/
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Post by extremegamer on Jan 28, 2017 0:22:20 GMT
Now call it whining, call it trolling, call it what you want but I need to get something out of my system. So far I've actually been excited about the new Mass Effect game. They made a lot of right decisions with it so far in my eyes. Making a story about exploring and colonizing new worlds? Wonderful, that's what I wanted from ME in the first place. Bringing the Mako back? Awesome, loved it. Getting rid of a morality system? Perfect, I had a lot of problems with Bioware's idea of right and wrong. Now with just one decision Bioware crushed all my excitement. S.A.M. the AI. "From his node in the Ark, SAM receives a direct feed of the Pathfinder's sensory input via a neural implant. It sees and feels as Ryder does...". Excuse me, what ?!? You know, I was fine with a ship AI like EDI, but for goodness sake, it should be my decision whether I allow a goddamn AI into my characters body. I wholeheartedly rejected synthesis in the ending of ME3. Now an AI is supposed to be an inseparable part of my character, changing and influencing him/her all while my character has absolutely no control over it and can't shut it off. This is synthesis creeping in through the back door. Remember how one of the ME3 writers said they actually believe what the Star Kid says about synthesis being inevitable? Well, there you have it. Also, remember Javik's story about the Zha and the Zha'til? Remember what happened to Saren and the Illusive man? All I thought was, those idiots can only blame themselves for allowing technology they don't control and they don't understand into their bodies. Now I am supposed to play the same kind of idiot. It's obvious Bioware will once again advertise the game by saying how this is our story and Ryder our character. No character I would call mine, in fact no character I would respect, would allow an AI into his/her body. And it's obvious they will use S.A.M to push their robofetishist message some more just like they did with EDI and the Geth. So it won't be my story either cuz if it's not my message, it's not my story. So there it is, got it out of my system (actually feel a little better now). Two last things. One, to all you Sci-Fi writers who keep pushing your roboesoteric and transhumanism agenda. You are more annoying than Jehova's whitnesses with your Pinocchio messiah. Two, I actually was excited about MEA, I really was. And I really loved the ME universe minus the preachy Pinocchio stuff. But if the last thing I ever did in this universe was shooting that damn tube, flipping the bird to Star Kid and its synthesis and sending every Pinocchio in the Milky Way to robot hell, I'm perfectly fine with that. And now I'm off to find out if Star Citizen will have Pinocchio stuff in it. And if yes, I swear, I'm going to buy No Man's Sky. F**k's sake, there has to be one damn game about space exploration without Pinocchio stuff in it. The ending of 3 has no part of ME A you need to deal with that
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 28, 2017 2:56:48 GMT
Not nearly as emotional about it as OP and it won't stop me from playing the game, but I agree. I'm really tired of the tranhumanism sermon. And that's what Starchild was. A transhumanism sermon. Err. not really. If anything it's a middle finger to the holokid. And based that alone I 100% support it. Remember the whole "organics and synthetics will always fight because 'art' and some crap I just made up" (redundant I know)? Here's an AI created and working with organics just fine. It's not really synthesis. It's a deeper interface than we've seen before but there's no real merging (or at least we've seen no evidence to that effect). It's discount JARVIS but skipping a step guys. Nothing more.
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Post by Mihura on Jan 28, 2017 3:33:39 GMT
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Jan 28, 2017 6:25:06 GMT
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Post by Raga on Jan 28, 2017 6:26:03 GMT
Not nearly as emotional about it as OP and it won't stop me from playing the game, but I agree. I'm really tired of the tranhumanism sermon. And that's what Starchild was. A transhumanism sermon. Err. not really. If anything it's a middle finger to the holokid. And based that alone I 100% support it. Remember the whole "organics and synthetics will always fight because 'art' and some crap I just made up" (redundant I know)? Here's an AI created and working with organics just fine. It's not really synthesis. It's a deeper interface than we've seen before but there's no real merging (or at least we've seen no evidence to that effect). It's discount JARVIS but skipping a step guys. Nothing more. How is it a middle finger when Synthesis was "the ideal solution" according to it? It didn't want Ai/organic cooperation, which it thought was impossible. It wanted Ai/organic melding (that is organic uplift through technology: transhumanism). Having an AI interacting with an organic's brain appears to be preliminary steps of precisely what it was aiming for on a cursory inspection. As I say, I'm not worked up about it, but the theme is too heavy to make me think they just dropped it. I'm quite capable of just rolling my eyes at it and enjoying the game anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 7:44:05 GMT
The ending of 3 has no part of ME A you need to deal with that S.A.M. is the proof they won't let the idea of synthesis go. I didn't even hate the ending. That's because I had options. I could send my "screw AI-esotericism"-message throughout the galaxy with a beautiful red firework. With S.A.M. I don't have that option. S.A.M. is worse.
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Post by LightningPoodle on Jan 28, 2017 8:17:56 GMT
So it's like the Leviathans said. Every civilisation goes down this path. Every civilisation ends because of it. It's why the Reapers were created. To find an answer to stop that from happening.
Because the Andromeda Initiative leaves during the trilogy timeline, this discovery has not actually been made yet, therefore there is nothing telling them that doing this will lead to their destruction.
Perhaps it is for these reasons the Reapers come every 50,000 years. It's just before civilisations begin doing this except, Shepard delayed them a year, giving the inhabitants of the galaxy an extra year to go ahead and start down this path.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 28, 2017 10:17:52 GMT
So it's like the Leviathans said. Every civilisation goes down this path. Every civilisation ends because of it. It's why the Reapers were created. To find an answer to stop that from happening. Because the Andromeda Initiative leaves during the trilogy timeline, this discovery has not actually been made yet, therefore there is nothing telling them that doing this will lead to their destruction. Perhaps it is for these reasons the Reapers come every 50,000 years. It's just before civilisations begin doing this except, Shepard delayed them a year, giving the inhabitants of the galaxy an extra year to go ahead and start down this path. To be fair, it's just like always: like Bioware decides I can't say they decided wrong, because it's their game and the vast majority of the player base doesn’t care or is in agreement with this. Personally though, I don't really like the route they are taking... and I'm growing concerned because ME:A seems more and more like a Saturday morning sci fi cartoon. There are more trailers and time that could change my mind on the matter, but as for now I think I’ll quietly skip this new trilogy and wait for something else.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 28, 2017 18:10:49 GMT
How is it a middle finger when Synthesis was "the ideal solution" according to it? It didn't want Ai/organic cooperation, which it thought was impossible. It wanted Ai/organic melding (that is organic uplift through technology: transhumanism). Having an AI interacting with an organic's brain appears to be preliminary steps of precisely what it was aiming for on a cursory inspection. As I say, I'm not worked up about it, but the theme is too heavy to make me think they just dropped it. I'm quite capable of just rolling my eyes at it and enjoying the game anyway. Because it is AI/Organic cooperation? And still of a subservient nature I might add as SAM enhances organics, but not the other way around. It's clearly doing the job it was built for, not going off on its own and gaining "understanding" or whatever. Transhumanism is only one side of synthesis. In synthesis both sides gain. Organics are uplifted through technology, synthetics are uplifted through understanding. That felt dirty just saying, but trying to not think about that association, the idea might have merits. But regardless, we've seen no hints that that idea is what's happening here because SAM is not said to gain anything. And even if it is the first step down that road, it's still a bit of a sendoff to the holokid because it didn't require thousands of cycles of genocide or galaxy wide forced hybridization through space magic. The holokid can't resist utterly sucking the big one once more when it says "synthesis can't be forced... but go ahead and force it on everyone anyway". But here, if it really is happening it's happening entirely voluntarily (at least as far as we know, everyone consented to the implants. If they didn't then yes, we have a problem). Organics creating AI, not coming into conflict with them but working together and eventually merging on their own? Where's your inevitability now, you glowy nonsensical dick? In a way this is even better than stopping at discount JARVIS because it means BioWare has thoroughly codified the complete rejection of their "art" in one act.
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Post by boyaki on Jan 28, 2017 18:31:02 GMT
Not nearly as emotional about it as OP and it won't stop me from playing the game, but I agree. I'm really tired of the tranhumanism sermon. And that's what Starchild was. A transhumanism sermon. Somebody at Bioware spends way too much time listening to the likes of Elon Musk, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Steven Hawking, et al and assuming that just because they are brilliant at business or astrophysics or whatever they also must also be oracles and experts on existential mumbo-jumbo. A lot of these guys are drunk on their own intelligence and full of arrogant psuedo-science. "I really liked reading Neuromancer and 2001 a Space Odyssey and I'm a smart guy: Therefore it must be true and cogent!" Too many TED talks watched, not even boring, mundane science read. www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/10/silicon-valley-is-obsessed-with-a-false-notion-of-reality/503963/www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/diversity-and-its-limits/510818/ Stephen Hawking has not really showed a very big excitement to the idea of AI and instead repeat the danger of a true AI plus I don't think he qualify as a pseudo-scientist, I still tend to trust the guy who actually know about science than the one who basicaly reject it. Mass Effect has always show the danger of uncheck AI and that one awesome invention could become organic worst nightmare. Saying that Bioware is trying to push transhumanism because of EDI or SAM would be as pertinent as saying it is pushing transhumanism hate with Reaper and EDI. Looking at this as a pushing agenda of something that do not exist is maybe a bit over the top ? Can we let SF be SF ? I mean the mass effect is BS but I really don't mind it in a fictional game, I don't think it is pushing any kinetic/psychic agenda neither is the Force in Star Wars. At no point it was said S.A.M. was able to make decision or influence human in any other way than relaying information. I feared way more EDI because she was partially free, if she wanted to screw everyone she could have. For now S.A.M. is just a physical enhancer and communication device, he doesn't seem much different than a computer. If S.A.M. had more ability, like taking decision without consent or control it would be really dangerous but technology is not magic. If S.A.M. turns out to be dangerous, it is okay, not because transhumanism or whatever but because Mass Effect is a SF story and it having SF plot is just common sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 18:58:33 GMT
Stephen Hawking has not really showed a very big excitement to the idea of AI and instead repeat the danger of a true AI plus I don't think he qualify as a pseudo-scientist, I still tend to trust the guy who actually know about science than the one who basicaly reject it. Mass Effect has always show the danger of uncheck AI and that one awesome invention could become organic worst nightmare. Saying that Bioware is trying to push transhumanism because of EDI or SAM would be as pertinent as saying it is pushing transhumanism hate with Reaper and EDI. Looking at this as a pushing agenda of something that do not exist is maybe a bit over the top ? Can we let SF be SF ? I mean the mass effect is BS but I really don't mind it in a fictional game, I don't think it is pushing any kinetic/psychic agenda neither is the Force in Star Wars. At no point it was said S.A.M. was able to make decision or influence human in any other way than relaying information. I feared way more EDI because she was partially free, if she wanted to screw everyone she could have. For now S.A.M. is just a physical enhancer and communication device, he doesn't seem much different than a computer. If S.A.M. had more ability, like taking decision without consent or control it would be really dangerous but technology is not magic. If S.A.M. turns out to be dangerous, it is okay, not because transhumanism or whatever but because Mass Effect is a SF story and it having SF plot is just common sense. Yea I can't imagine Alec Ryder being heartless or stupid enough to let an unshackled artificial intelligence be implanted into his children's minds with the intention of allowing SAM to take control of them. I'm going to assume that they created a fail-safe just in case SAM becomes too invasive.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 28, 2017 19:31:07 GMT
This hurts me. SAM is physically located on Hyperion and keeps a connection with the Pathfinder through implants, I assume the other Arks/Nexus have their own AIs also connected to their Pathfinders. Using AI to regulate/automate stuff on the Arks/Nexus during the cryostasis makes sense, similar to Vigil/Victory, tho they were VIs. It's possible that the other AIs are actually VIs but Alec/Ellen improved SAM specifically turning it into AI, or the Arks/Nexus simply required a more powerful automated system thus the use of AI instead of VI.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 9:11:37 GMT
This hurts me. SAM is physically located on Hyperion and keeps a connection with the Pathfinder through implants, I assume the other Arks/Nexus have their own AIs also connected to their Pathfinders. Using AI to regulate/automate stuff on the Arks/Nexus during the cryostasis makes sense, similar to Vigil/Victory, tho they were VIs. It's possible that the other AIs are actually VIs but Alec/Ellen improved SAM specifically turning it into AI, or the Arks/Nexus simply required a more powerful automated system thus the use of AI instead of VI. It appears to me S.A.M. is able to manipulate Ryders body and also monitors everything Ryder sees does and even feels. Whether through implants or not, doesn't matter. Bioware just took it way too far by allowing that thing into the main characters body. In my view, Ryder is an idiot if (s)he lets that happen, so that kinda destroys the main character for me. Regulating stuff on the nexus doesn't require implants up your ass.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 29, 2017 9:34:53 GMT
Maybe it is to keep control of the Pathfinders?, like Miranda wanted to do with Shepard on ME2 (control-chip). Would be quite the twist if Cerberus is involved in doing so, especially if Cora Harper is actually related to the Illusive Man.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 10:20:58 GMT
Maybe it is to keep control of the Pathfinders?, like Miranda wanted to do with Shepard on ME2 (control-chip). Would be quite the twist if Cerberus is involved in doing so, especially if Cora Harper is actually related to the Illusive Man. Yeah, that sounds quite comforting . But no, that won't be it. It's most likely Ryders mother who created that AI, rmember?
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Post by dalinne on Jan 29, 2017 11:35:44 GMT
This hurts me. SAM is physically located on Hyperion and keeps a connection with the Pathfinder through implants, I assume the other Arks/Nexus have their own AIs also connected to their Pathfinders. Using AI to regulate/automate stuff on the Arks/Nexus during the cryostasis makes sense, similar to Vigil/Victory, tho they were VIs. It's possible that the other AIs are actually VIs but Alec/Ellen improved SAM specifically turning it into AI, or the Arks/Nexus simply required a more powerful automated system thus the use of AI instead of VI. It appears to me S.A.M. is able to manipulate Ryders body and also monitors everything Ryder sees does and even feels. Whether through implants or not, doesn't matter. Bioware just took it way too far by allowing that thing into the main characters body. In my view, Ryder is an idiot if (s)he lets that happen, so that kinda destroys the main character for me. Regulating stuff on the nexus doesn't require implants up your ass. I disagree, storytelling-wise, that would be a great final conflict for the end of this game or the next one. Also, let's remember we are not the only ones with that implant, 4 other pathfinders had it. If there is a real connection with SAM and our mother, maybe we are the only one not affected by that kind of control. But at the end we have to do something about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 12:07:22 GMT
It appears to me S.A.M. is able to manipulate Ryders body and also monitors everything Ryder sees does and even feels. Whether through implants or not, doesn't matter. Bioware just took it way too far by allowing that thing into the main characters body. In my view, Ryder is an idiot if (s)he lets that happen, so that kinda destroys the main character for me. Regulating stuff on the nexus doesn't require implants up your ass. I disagree, storytelling-wise, that would be a great final conflict for the end of this game or the next one. Also, let's remember we are not the only ones with that implant, 4 other pathfinders had it. If there is a real connection with SAM and our mother, maybe we are the only one not affected by that kind of control. But at the end we have to do something about it. It doesn't matter where it goes story wise, it breaks the roleplaying part for me. For roleplaying a character I need to connect with him/her and undestand his/her motives. I cannot understand at all that Ryder would let an AI into his body. And this is not a small thing like some auto dialogue that you don't like, it's a major decision that the players should make themselves. Kinda funny how Mac Walters said after the ending of ME3, he learned how much ownership people take over their character. Seems he hasn't learned after all. Best thing I can hope for here is an Adam Jensen type as Ryder. "I didn't ask for this".
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Post by boyaki on Jan 29, 2017 15:56:36 GMT
I disagree, storytelling-wise, that would be a great final conflict for the end of this game or the next one. Also, let's remember we are not the only ones with that implant, 4 other pathfinders had it. If there is a real connection with SAM and our mother, maybe we are the only one not affected by that kind of control. But at the end we have to do something about it. It doesn't matter where it goes story wise, it breaks the roleplaying part for me. For roleplaying a character I need to connect with him/her and undestand his/her motives. I cannot understand at all that Ryder would let an AI into his body. And this is not a small thing like some auto dialogue that you don't like, it's a major decision that the players should make themselves. Kinda funny how Mac Walters said after the ending of ME3, he learned how much ownership people take over their character. Seems he hasn't learned after all. Best thing I can hope for here is an Adam Jensen type as Ryder. "I didn't ask for this". Well it is not hard to understand why someone would have an enhancer and a communication device for its body, no information show S.A.M. to be more than that. And Adam Jensen did not ask for it but he certainly use it and upgraded it. Shepard is full of implant and in permanent connexion with EDI, not that different. It is not like they build something like "We have no idea what it can do, it can change is programation alone and we are not going to watch it". Rebel AI in mass effect were build like that. Geth were concieved to protect themself and learn things on their own. Reapers were build to find a solution the Leviathan couldn't find themselves. The A.I. never took chaotic choice in mass effect, it has always been according to their programation, there is no maloveince, I don't see what S.A.M. could do except "He magicaly become evil, and get power he never had before like mind control..."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 17:05:56 GMT
It doesn't matter where it goes story wise, it breaks the roleplaying part for me. For roleplaying a character I need to connect with him/her and undestand his/her motives. I cannot understand at all that Ryder would let an AI into his body. And this is not a small thing like some auto dialogue that you don't like, it's a major decision that the players should make themselves. Kinda funny how Mac Walters said after the ending of ME3, he learned how much ownership people take over their character. Seems he hasn't learned after all. Best thing I can hope for here is an Adam Jensen type as Ryder. "I didn't ask for this". Well it is not hard to understand why someone would have an enhancer and a communication device for its body, no information show S.A.M. to be more than that. And Adam Jensen did not ask for it but he certainly use it and upgraded it. Shepard is full of implant and in permanent connexion with EDI, not that different. It is not like they build something like "We have no idea what it can do, it can change is programation alone and we are not going to watch it". Rebel AI in mass effect were build like that. Geth were concieved to protect themself and learn things on their own. Reapers were build to find a solution the Leviathan couldn't find themselves. The A.I. never took chaotic choice in mass effect, it has always been according to their programation, there is no maloveince, I don't see what S.A.M. could do except "He magicaly become evil, and get power he never had before like mind control..." You woldn't need a true AI for a simple communication device and you wouldn't need it inside your body. From what we know, monitoring everything you do and even feel would be more than enough reason for me to say I would have never agree to that. I wasn't a fan of EDI's role either, but that is still entirely different. EDI is not in permanent connection with Shepard. Shepard can go on the Citadel or on a secret mission for Arya on Omega without EDI, because it is only part of the Normandy, not part of him/her. There are plenty AI that took "chaotic choice" in ME. Leviathan didn't create the Reaper to almost get wiped out by them, same goes for the Quarians and their Geth. Geth also weren't created to follow the Reaper like the heretics did. Zha didn't create the Zha'til to get controlled by them. And there's the AI on the Citadel during ME1 that considers organics its enemy. Of course everything the AI do is according to their programation, after all they are ... well ... programs. But that just shows how dangerous true AI are and that even if you program it with good intentions, the results can be disastrous. You program it to save your client races. It starts harvesting them and you instead. If the damn apex race can't create an AI that is harmless and fully understands what you want from it, maybe you should stay away from that either.
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Post by ravenous on Jan 29, 2017 17:54:15 GMT
ME:A has nothing to do with ME3 and the ending and you just have to deal with it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 18:17:28 GMT
ME:A has nothing to do with ME3 and the ending and you just have to deal with it Didn't I already say I don't hate ME3 ending? Because I could actually reject synthesis? And the parallels between S.A.M and synthesis are definitely there, even if people refuse to believe that.
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Post by Two Faces on Jan 29, 2017 18:22:54 GMT
Se, we all are okay fucking a robot, that is practically yelling that you are so ugly that you can't fuck an alive being, but when I talk about fucking our SisRyder I am sick!?
Where is the tolerance!?
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