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Post by Ieldra on Aug 10, 2016 7:50:25 GMT
This is a repost of an analysis I made about the ending of ME3, which of all my countless posts about that topic, I re-post here because it summarizes my view of things best in a relatively short piece of writing.
This is a summary. The problems mentioned here triggered further debate in the past, but at this point it may be beating a dead horse. In any case, this is how the scenario presents itself to me: 1. The In-world perspective You are Shepard. You have reached your enemy's hq. You're at the end of your strength and you're injured, but you are, at last, confronting the enemy you've fought against, knowingly or not, ever since you saw Sovereign lift off of Eden Prime. This enemy is killing your civilization, and it has been killing civilizations for at least 37 million years. Apparently it can take images from your mind in order to appear as this boy. It tells you a lot of stuff about organics and synthetics. Maybe it's true, maybe not, but well, this is the enemy. Do you trust it? Of course you don't, but that leaves you with a dilemma. You have no information about how to proceed. The enemy is in control of the situation. For all you know, pushing any of these buttons will just kill you. Why doesn't the Catalyst just kill you? No idea, perhaps it has no physical limbs or servants up here to do it, so it has to stall for time. Anyway, everything it tells you is suspect. Normally, you'd be looking for the fourth button it hasn't told you about, but there isn't one. Well, of course it could all be true. Your theory of mind will probably fail with a million-year-old AI, but would you bet your civilization on it? It doesn't matter. You have no single piece of reliable information about how to proceed. All you know is that this thing has been trying to kill your civilization. You might as well throw dice to make your decision. You're caught in an inescapable infinite suspicion chain. So what do you do? As the player, you take a step back. You leave the in-world perspective and switch into the storytelling perspective. And now the sh*t really hits the fan, because all the thematic and narrative inconsistencies you could ignore in the in-world perspective swoop down and explode in your face. 2. The storytelling perspective ....because now it is driven home what this situation really means: there is no hero's solution. There are only the antagonist's solutions. It is in complete control of the scenario, and you have no way to break it. You have no meaningful agency since all the choices are predetermined by your enemy. The reasonable thing to do, given how stories work, is to refuse to take part in this game. Of course we all know how that ends, and actually the story seems to assume you should become part of your enemy's scenario. But that *would* mean that the Catalyst wins, not you. This goes for all the main choices: Destroy destroys all the synthetics. This uncomfortably associates with a Reaper method: genocide. Control will make you - or something of you - into an AI god and take control of the Reapers. This uncomfortably associates with another Reaper method: indoctrination. Synthesis will ultimate fuse organic and synthetic life. This uncomfortably associates with yet another Reaper method: Reaperization. No matter that this is - rather obviously - not how it was intended to come across, this is how it *does* come across on the associative and thematic level. If you take one of the three main choices, the antagonist's values are ascendant, and you have lost - lost in a much more profound way than losing your life. There is more, though. Suppose you can ignore that and listen to the Catalyst without rejecting what it says because it's the enemy and you have no reason to assume it wouldn't deceive you. Suppose you decide to listen with an open mind. Now we are facing a different problem. The Catalyst asserts a problem. If you were mostly paragon or neutral, you have been playing a story that emphasized again and again that we aren't doomed to conflict, that we can build a good future if we can overcome our prejudices and work together. For 2.9 games, you have been pestering people for co-operation against a common enemy, for burying old hatreds, forget past wars and work for the future instead, and you have been rewarded with significant changes and very satisfying outcomes. This has worked even between organics and synthetics. You have started to understand the geth and made peace on Rannoch. These things have narrative weight. 2.9 games of narrative weight against the assertion of your main antagonist? And you're expected to make one of three choices, all of which are presented to you in the context of the truth of this assertion? How does this not come across as insane? So are you supposed to disbelieve it? If so - yet again - why isn't there a fourth button to press and make you win? Or is this a scenario where you can't win? Well, yes, on the thematic and narrative level, this is a scenario where you can't win. Even if you would really like to believe that at least one of the main options is a good one, on this level the story tells you that (1) the scenario is flawed, and (2) all the options are the enemy's options. This is why I've said it's best to treat the Catalyst encounter as a black box. Somehow you get the information about what the ending options do, and you can choose for the future you prefer, and/or avoid the downsides you find least acceptable. 3. Is the Catalyst encounter real? The hypothesis that the Catalyst encounter isn't real has some merit. In fact, at times I've thought that it took place in your mind and you were making your decision as you were dying, and that everything after your collapse at the control terminal wasn't real in a physical sense. That would explain the symbolism of the choices neatly - in the associative realm of your mind, you could trigger a meaningful choice through a symbolic action. You know what, though: it doesn't matter. Physically real or not, the Catalyst has complete control over the situation, you are in its game with no way out, and the consequences of your decision are real. Conclusions: The ending choices present interesting alternatives for the future of civilization. They have certain intrinsic themes you may or may not find appealing, but in and of themselves any of them could make for a good future. However, their presentation through the Catalyst encounter means you either can't believe in any of them, or they're narratively tainted by being the antagonist's solutions, or both. Thus, the Catalyst encounter, not the ending choices themselves, is what makes the ending problematic.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 10, 2016 7:59:09 GMT
Here's my analysis also:
"it sucked"
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 10, 2016 9:23:07 GMT
There are numerous reasons - and people don't recognize related problems equally.
For me it's like:
"So the character I played for 3 games is just a fucking tool that gets to pick a rigged outcome? I wanted a cosmic fate! I wanted Erlösung! I wanted a meaningful way to die and keep the character in dear memory! Fuck you and fuck this bullshit! <Rant continues as you like>"
"Dafuq is this crap message about DLC?! The fuck I'm gonna buy your DLC! <Really pissed off by now.>"
"Fucking MP. I guess this is where the money went. Some crappy shit MP. Let's see how awful it is so I can shite it blind with <more corny words>"
"Oh wow - this MP is actually good. I hate to say I like it. I like it a lot..."
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 10, 2016 9:58:26 GMT
"So the character I played for 3 games is just a fucking tool that gets to pick a rigged outcome? I wanted a cosmic fate! I wanted Erlösung! I wanted a meaningful way to die and keep the character in dear memory! Well....yes, that was your reaction, but my post was about the underlying reasons für such reactions. For instance, there are many games that let you pick one from a set of predetermined outcomes. They are of different quality, but in many cases they're at least acceptable. Why was it different here? And the answer is that the Catalyst made for the difference. My first reaction back then was "You can't be serious", and when it turned out they *were* serious, I refused to accept things as they appeared. I chose a heavily-interpreted ending based on Synthesis, that turned out to be rather similar to what the EC presented to us, and made a headcanon ending for the personal fate of Shepard. This didn't save me from a bout of depression and I continued to feel tainted from taking part in this charade, but I could leave the story behind that way.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 10, 2016 10:44:46 GMT
"So the character I played for 3 games is just a fucking tool that gets to pick a rigged outcome? I wanted a cosmic fate! I wanted Erlösung! I wanted a meaningful way to die and keep the character in dear memory! Well....yes, that was your reaction, but my post was about the underlying reasons für such reactions. For instance, there are many games that let you pick one from a set of predetermined outcomes. They are of different quality, but in many cases they're at least acceptable. Why was it different here? And the answer is that the Catalyst made for the difference. My first reaction back then was "You can't be serious", and when it turned out they *were* serious, I refused to accept things as they appeared. I chose a heavily-interpreted ending based on Synthesis, that turned out to be rather similar to what the EC presented to us, and made a headcanon ending for the personal fate of Shepard. This didn't save me from a bout of depression and I continued to feel tainted from taking part in this charade, but I could leave the story behind that way. The catalyst was probably the main reason it felt like being a tool. The ridiculous presentation did the rest. But my main gripe was how choosing the outcome felt like dumping the character in the trash. No redemption, no consolation, no "you did the right thing". Just a nagging feeling I won the Zonk in the deal. Apparently they must have noticed it since they adressed this in the EC. The vanilla ending were just like a big "Fuck you, you creepy nerd! Here - look what I'm gonna do to your fantasies!" I need to think of Asari boobs and Krogan headbutts now - this stuff generally keeps me getting over it.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 10, 2016 12:10:06 GMT
I'll take "narratively tainted by the antagonist's solutions" for five hundred. Aaaaand toss in that weird,"And everyone lived happily ever after" theme after the horrifying implications. HAPPILY EVER AFTER.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 10, 2016 14:09:18 GMT
Here's my analysis also: "it sucked" Yep. I think the ending of ME3 was one of the most "WTH" moment I experienced in video games. The narrative was kinda alright , I felt like Tuchanka was a highlight. It was the story of how the different species in the galaxy were fighting together (or fighting each others ) to survive. And then at the last minute everything shift , suddenly it's all about the reaper and what some new antagonist coming out of nowhere wants. The Star Brat tries to sell you the whole organics vs bots was the main concern and always has been.Well excuse me , but I just solved our geth/Quarian problem.My human pilot is trying to bang the ship . Oh yeah synthesis will solve all the thing , sure, aren't the Reaper a soup of organics and synthetic? They are great problem solver indeed . Argh. Please don't try to be edgy just for the sake of it at the last minute.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Aug 10, 2016 15:21:03 GMT
I never even got to the ending.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 11, 2016 14:55:25 GMT
I agree of course. Interesting that you talk about the encounter being in Shepard's mind though. Last time we were discussing the endings you were quite against that idea.
Of course, it meant something different back then but still...
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 14, 2016 20:47:59 GMT
I agree of course. Interesting that you talk about the encounter being in Shepard's mind though. Last time we were discussing the endings you were quite against that idea. Of course, it meant something different back then but still... When Shep "survives" the Red Ending, and you see his chest breathe, it's surrounded by concrete and rebar and Earth debris. That is a very strong indicator that it was all in his head. Anderson represented Shep's will and determination, whereas TIM represented Indoctrination attempting to take hold. Thus picking "Destroy" would signify Shep overcoming Reaper Indoctrination, whereas Synthesis or Control would signify Shep succumbing to it. Apparently Indoctrination Theory is non-canon, but I do believe that it is what they originally were going for before changing their minds for whatever reason. There's very little possible explanation for how Anderson and TIM got up there with Shep, why TIM shot Anderson in the side and then Shep was bleeding from that spot, and why Starbinger was able to take on a physical appearance like someone from Shep's own mind. And then of course there are the shadowy figures in the dream sequences representing Reapers, and Shep's pistol during the Marauder Shields boss fight having unlimited ammo. But I'm sure we've all gone over this a long time ago.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 14, 2016 21:02:40 GMT
Can we *please* not bring IT into this. When I said that the Catalyst scene - and that scene only - might not have been real, I did NOT intend to imply indoctrination in any way.
For me IT is just a way to attempt to canonize Destroy and make those who chose it feel superior, and for that I alone I despise it. Also, if Bioware had intended this, it would've been *way* more obvious. Bioware is never subtle in these things.
Since IT is also unrelated to how the ending did or did not work, please discuss it in its own thread.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 14, 2016 21:05:28 GMT
Can we *please* not bring IT into this. When I said that the Catalyst scene - and that scene only - might not have been real, I did NOT intend to imply indoctrination in any way. For me IT is just a way to attempt to canonize Destroy and make those who chose it feel superior, and for that I alone I despise it. Can we *please* not bring the Catalyst into this. For me it is just a way to attempt to cannonize bad writing and make Mac Walters feel superior, and for that I alone I despise it.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 14, 2016 21:07:47 GMT
I agree about the bad writing and I would've preferred - see my OP - an ending without the Catalyst. That is unrelated to your pet theory.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 14, 2016 21:14:54 GMT
I agree about the bad writing and I would've preferred - see my OP - an ending without the Catalyst. That is unrelated to your pet theory. Tell me your pet theory on how Shep blew up on the Citadel and landed on Earth in the same spot Harbinger shot him and was still alive.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 14, 2016 21:44:23 GMT
Yeah, let's not do this here. We're not gonna ban IT talk on this forum but this discussion is rapidly deteriorating. SalMasRac, you want to talk IT, please feel free to make a thread for it, if one doesn't already exist. The OP's topic deals with something else.
/modtalk
Now for myself, I agree the whole thing should've been in Shepard's head, if it wasn't already. Not necessarily as a result of indoctrination, as again that's something else. But simply as a means of interfacing with the holokid, who absofuckinglutely should not have been a holokid at all but either AVINA, a collection of Shepard's squad/other relevant NPCs (like what Leviathan did) or a formless shape with a badass voice. Needless to say it also shouldn't have been in charge of the Reapers to avoid the "capitulating to the enemy" nonsense or indeed the even bigger nonsense of "yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics..." you know the rest. Forget the elevator to bullshit, the almighty Achilles Pipe, the +/- car battery rods or the Jolly Green Giant Laser being real things. They're abstract representations for what those choices do, namely send the kill -9 signal, install Shepard as root or.. well, whatever Synthesis is supposed to do.
The endings should've also not had arbitrary bullshit consequences like destroying/damaging the relays, killing the geth/EDI in Destroy (don't shit on the obvious choice, give me good reasons for picking the others) or applying magic green space DNA across the board (synthesis needs the most reworking to be honest).
Ever since I discovered and watched Babylon 5 I can only point frantically to it and scream "look! why didn't you assholes pay more attention and follow through properly if you were gonna rip this off?" every time the ME3 ending pops up, and I was also curious if you had seen it Ieldra and what your thought on the comparison were?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 2:34:43 GMT
Depends on your definition of winning.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 15, 2016 8:25:27 GMT
Now for myself, I agree the whole thing should've been in Shepard's head, if it wasn't already. Not necessarily as a result of indoctrination, as again that's something else. But simply as a means of interfacing with the holokid, who absofuckinglutely should not have been a holokid at all but either AVINA, a collection of Shepard's squad/other relevant NPCs (like what Leviathan did) or a formless shape with a badass voice. Needless to say it also shouldn't have been in charge of the Reapers to avoid the "capitulating to the enemy" nonsense or indeed the even bigger nonsense of "yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics..." you know the rest. Forget the elevator to bullshit, the almighty Achilles Pipe, the +/- car battery rods or the Jolly Green Giant Laser being real things. They're abstract representations for what those choices do, namely send the kill -9 signal, install Shepard as root or.. well, whatever Synthesis is supposed to do. I agree with this. As much as I like the outcome as such, I find it hard to imagine a Synthesis variant that doesn't feel like it's being facilitated by the Reapers, which will, of course, make it suspect. A significant part of the story with regard to technology and the means to appropriate it would have to be re-written to make it feel otherwise. I think Control is the most "honest" ending in this regard: any possible negative consequences are inherent in the choice itself. I have watched only parts of B5. Between books and games I don't have much time for TV and movies. How did it go?
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 15, 2016 8:30:25 GMT
Depends on your definition of winning. Your quote is misleading without incuding the sentence after that: on the thematic and associative level, this is a scenario you can't win. Sure, the cycle is broken in any of the three main endings, but it still *feels* like you've lost. At the very least, people tend to feel mildly tainted. Some people at Bioware thought it was all about Shepard's death, but that's not the problem in itself. Death after having won is acceptable, albeit sad. Death after having lost - or so it feels to many - is not.
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Post by Ahriman on Aug 15, 2016 9:30:55 GMT
That was well-written, OP, but it's a beating of dead horse. It's the lowest part of the trilogy, where all inconsistencies are pushed together and then they explode in your face. In colors. The list with ending's bullcrap is just endless, you can count points in it, instead of sheep. 1. The Thing decides your right to make decisions judging by your reaper-beam dodging skills and army gathering. Survived Harby's Ray of Love? Let's talk. Low ems? - "No way I'm letting you rule us, dude, just destroy us and be done with it". 2. The Thing was on Citadel the whole time. Probably shouting "Go, Nazara, go!" during ME1. 3. "We kill you so you don't kill yourself" stuff. And so on, and so on.
And no, not really. We are presented with Ultimate Problem in five last minutes of the game and then choose Ultimate Solution, but the twist is that these are solutions for Reapers (make them dead, make them domesticated, make them friendly). Nothing stops next generations from creating dangerous stuff, which The Thing was talking about in the first place. It's like solving mass shootings by melting all guns in the world/ giving all guns to one man/ turning all guns in water guns, but not prohibiting gun production.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 15, 2016 12:09:48 GMT
That was well-written, OP, but it's a beating of dead horse. Sure, but since most of the old posts on the matter will soon be gone (to Bioware's great delight no doubt), I thought to re-post at least a summary here. That the ending choices present a (non)-solution to a (non)-problem (un)-related to the dominant themes of the trilogy (take your pick) doesn't mean they can't result in interesting futures. None of the *outcomes'* dominant themes are necessarily related to the problem the Catalyst asserts. Of course that is a flaw of its own, but it makes it possible to choose based on other preferences, if you can ignore that the choices are all tainted by the Catalyst.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 15, 2016 14:05:48 GMT
As much as I like the outcome as such, I find it hard to imagine a Synthesis variant that doesn't feel like it's being facilitated by the Reapers, which will, of course, make it suspect. A significant part of the story with regard to technology and the means to appropriate it would have to be re-written to make it feel otherwise. I think Control is the most "honest" ending in this regard: any possible negative consequences are inherent in the choice itself. Facilitated by the Reapers, maybe, but not at their behest. Control provides a sort of "precedent" for just making the Reapers do it without it being their idea. If the holokid were replaced by some Intelligence in the Crucible that somehow is able to hack the Reapers, it could analyze the situation, list the Reaper goals it finds and suggest the solutions- that way you could even keep the "yo dawg" if you really wanted to. For synthesis, there's not a lot I can think of suggesting to fix it other than only applying it locally- perhaps to people already dead on the Citadel but not yet liquified, or maybe even to the husks on Earth or the galaxy if you really want to spread the green everywhere. That would actually make it an interesting choice. Destroy- your basic victory, kills the Reapers, allowing you to rebuild. Control- a more personal victory allowing you to conquer your foe utterly, transcend your limitations and either use your newfound powers for good or evil, sorry, paragon/renegade (as in the current ending) or leave it more open ended where you might go off and explore gather even more knowledge (my personal preference) Synthesis- a victory where you not only win but take back some of what was lost and make it even better. The dead on the citadel or the husks around the galaxy are restored to their former selves but retain their hybrid nature, potentially allowing them advances and powers that can't yet be quantified. This wouldn't be a Disney ending if you consider a) the "regular" survivors will still be freaked by the newly resurrected techno-organic beings, and these new beings themselves may not all enjoy being what they are or having any memories of their time as husks. I think the discussion around this will be more polarizing but far more interesting than what we have. There's questions of is any life better than none, as well as all the speculation of how the "normals" and "hybrids" will coexist. I have watched only parts of B5. Between books and games I don't have much time for TV and movies. How did it go? Well I'm loath to spoil anything but let's just say the main arc on B5 is either completely ripped off by what they make ME3 to be or the coincidences are staggering. How far have you gotten? I do recommend watching the rest. If you've gotten past the rockier first season it only goes up from there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 21:46:46 GMT
Here's the sad part with Casey Hudson's direction. He fanboyed so hard on Deus Ex 1 that he copied everything about the choices for the ending. Order of endings: Join Illuminatti (control); Merge with Helios (Synthesis); Tech dark age (Destroy)
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 15, 2016 21:52:49 GMT
Here's the sad part with Casey Hudson's direction. He fanboyed so hard on Deus Ex 1 that he copied everything about the choices for the ending. Order of endings: Join Illuminatti (control); Merge with Helios (Synthesis); Tech dark age (Destroy) That hand even looks like a Reaper approaching Earth with outstretched tendrils. At this point, is there anything they DIDNT rip off
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 16, 2016 0:36:26 GMT
At this point, is there anything they DIDNT rip off The inspiration quotes at the end? I have a feeling they would've gone over better than "Buy more DLC"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 3:50:32 GMT
Did the intelligence decide the outcomes? Or was it the Crucible? Since the options which are presented are determined by your EMS score, the Crucible did. Which you gathered people to help build.
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