Why the ending did not work (repost)

"The keepers are presumed to be one of the earliest races to be indoctrinated by the Reapers, who set them the task of maintaining the Citadel and activating the Citadel Relay when Sovereign signals them. It is also revealed that Sovereign is the vanguard of the Reapers."
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Storyline
My point is that Catalyst was never intended to exsist, there is no place for him in this plot. If he was on the Citadel all that time, he could just open Citadel relay. Maybe it's not his job, but hey, that was your idea Catalyst, least you can do is open damn portal.  You can come up with your idea why (maybe he was not active until crucible arrived and changed him), but in the story itself this is never explained.



Well it is, keepers made sure Asari won't dig too deep.




Hmm, ok. Good idea. I can agree on that.



Weeell, I still don't think reapers would care about it. They could rebuilt the beam and get rid of whole opposition running towards it. Was it *that* important? Reapers risked here losing war for convenient elevator for dead bodies.

For all we know this beam on Earth could lead us to one big meat machine.



This is interesting point. Because it explains why didn't we just use Conduit on Ilos in the third game. Guessing that it wasn't opened ever again.



masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Conduit_(Mass_Effect_3) If I remember correctly, they name it in game.



Plot hole tho. Maybe Catalyst wanted Shepard to get to the Citadel because he already knew about Crucible. Unlikely, but I don't see another reason.



Heavy risk reapers I mean, they knew about Crucible, why would they want to risk it?




If you have your basic rules of the universe and then alter them in last 10 minutes of the game, it's kinda cheap. But it comes down to Crucible being this amazing plot device. So meh, whatever.

As for the closure, I have different view on that, but I see your point.

You do know all codex are written from an in universe perspective. Which throws a lot of grey on a few parts when people try to use them as 100% proof of something. Catalyst fits just as well as any other plot related device in the ME universe. You only have to accept 1 simple idea for everything to make sense. The Catalyst isn't capable of activating anything on the citadel. Because it's role as over seer it must be kept secret. If word ever passed from one cycle to the next it's very existence and by extension the Reapers and the solution to the problem would be in dire jeopardy.

For any number of reasons it is very devoted to solving the problem of Synthetic Vs Organic. It would not put it self and by extension it's current only working solution on the line for any reason what so ever.



That still makes no logical sense what so ever. Only an idiot would find something floating in space and then start moving in and building a galaxy UN on something before fully understanding it. This simple fact is far more logic defying and creates far more plot holes then anything else ever done in the game.


If it created a feed back problem of the beam suddenly being broken it could have caused problems with the Citadel. Particularly with the Catalyst since you pop up in an area that seems to be the power generator for it. If something happened to that area you are looking at best case a total system shut down or worse case a run away reaction resulting in complete destruction. Either way would not be a good day for Catalyst.



Don't remember it ever being called that in game. But if it is made on the same basis of Mass Relay technology then we both know what would happen if something were to destabilize it. A very massive boom.



Not really a plot hole though. You can make it one if you wish to see it in that light. The Catalyst already admits that the Crucible plans have been around for several cycles. And the fact they were able to create it, dock it and have Shepard reach that area was a sign they might be capable of dealing with the problem without the Reaper intervention.



The Crucible has never been but a collection of plans. Half build and never finished. It would be the equivalent of US resting the entire WW2 strategy to deal with Japan by building an atomic bomb and using it without even attempting to try a proof of concept first.


Kind of follows the same ill defined set up of ME fields. Anything space magic is auto ME field.

And yet there was still a test at least. Proof of concept.

That is why the Reapers didn't care about the Crucible. There was nothing to show it would cause problems because it has never been made and never tested before. And the only thing that could activated they got a hold of and held it behind a massive fleet.

Reapers set a trap to lure the forces of the galaxy into it and the forces of the galaxy took the bait.

I know.

If the arms were closed without the reapers getting inside the Citadel to shut down the relays, my scenario would be possible no matter how slim.

Since the reapers built the relays, could they shut down a relay without having to use the main switch at the Citadel? If so, all they have to do is shut that relay off for that system while they do their harvest.

He is not? He can oversee, activating something on Citadel would be like a one thought to him.



Yes, but what of it? It's still a risk for reapers, that's why the moved the Citadel.



Ok, fine.



Oh, c'mon, ending of ME3 is logical but you can't belive that?


Yes, it is

It is already established that some information will make it to the next cycle. The Crucible in ME 3 is the greatest example of that. If the information that not only is the Citadel a trap but the leader of the Reapers existed on it the race or races in next cycle could easily attack the station and destroy it. After all the Asari found the station with the arms wide open. If they knew about it they could easily attack and destroy it out right while it is wide open. And even if Sovereign showed up to protect it would be the entire Asari Fleet vs 1 Reaper. Even those odds are slim for the Reaper to walk away alive. Even less if the Asari found and avoided the Citadel then allied with the Salarians and build up a massive fleet to destroy it.




Not nearly the risk you seem to make it out to be. They pulled it back directly into one of their most secure areas. They have held the Sol System basically since the start of the war as it was the second place hit after the Batarians. Decimating all their fleets in the area so unlike Turians or even Asari they were no able to maintain a fleet presence to resist them.

They took the item they need to complete their weapon. Pulled it well back into their own territory. Baiting the rest of the galaxy to come try and take it in a conventional war. A fight that the Reapers have all the advantages in. All based on a vague hope. If the Crucible didn't work they were effectively wiping out the entire military force of the galaxy.



The ending of ME3 follows logic far greater then that.

Well, the Keepers and Reapers would be products of indoctrination somehow, right? The Catalyst is the only true AI... but it must see through those other eyes somehow.

Shep got splash by splash damage hence why he/she is still capable of being alive. As for infinite ammo that is basically what those guns offered anyways. Bioware added the thermal clips and how they operate simply to make it more like other shooters with limited ammo rather then infinite ammo.


Actually it has been said in the game already that biotics is the manipulation of dark energy. That was either game 1 or maybe 2.  As well it is only a recent "upgrade" given to himself. The culmination of his Reaper research. Really didn't find Cerberus over powered anymore then any other faction in the game. By ME 3 not only are all other factions are under direct threat or possible threat from the Reapers. Forcing them to devote significant resources in the holding back or planning for their attack while Cerberus isn't a target by the Reapers until they attempt to manipulate the Reaper Signal.  On top of that their entire troops are kidnapped brain washed augmented with Reaper tech to create fearless and totally obedient super soldiers. Showing TIM's willingness to ignore ethics and morality if it serves his purpose.


It is actually a fairly apt metaphor though it has with it many possible interpretation that I can see at least. If you choose to take the most literal interpenetration like you seem to do here. Fire is made by organics. In areas like California they are or were dealing with massive forest fires that have/had engulfed miles of woodlands. Causing millions of dollars in property damage. And a fair helping of that is because of human meddling. Trying to restrict any fires from starting means no small fires help to clear out the dried brush (leaves, branches, trees, etc) that build up over time. This turns entire forests into literal powder kegs were one stray lightning bolt or one idiot throwing a match away can cause a fire that spreads rapidly. And rather then a small section of the woods that didn't get burned in the last small fire going up the entire forest does.

Granted in some areas like Federal or State Parks they do controlled burns of areas were they purposefully set areas on fire under very controlled circumstances. But those areas are generally very small and only really around areas with people living near by.

My personal interpenetration of this is much different. You are I'm sure aware of what the fire triangle is. The most simple visual representation of what is needed for fire to exist. Fuel source, heat and oxygen. Once fire start it will continue to destroys and kill indiscriminately until 1 or more of the sides of the triangle no longer exist. Fire displays no hatred or malice in it's actions no matter how much damage and death it causes.  Another Triangle exists that the Reapers were created to deal with. Synthetic life, Organic life and Conflict would ignite a war that would burn until one of the sides of the triangle are gone.  In this case it would be organic life that is burned until it no longer exists.  This isn't deemed an acceptable set up by the Catalyst. So after attempting to solve the problem multiple ways it comes to the Reaper solution.  It exists to prevent the synthetic life and conflict side of the triangle from developing to the point the fire starts.  As long as Synthetic and Organics inevitably cause conflict with each other that would ignite an all out war for existence the Reapers have to exist to prevent that. There is no malice or hate in their actions they are simply doing what they have to do.  To the races of the galaxy it is an all out war for survival. To the Reapers it is a Tuesday.



As for the rest the exploration and emotional part of the game remained the same as you got to have all the blanks about the Reapers and their past filled in. Like having a partially complete jigsaw puzzle and finally being handed the finale pieces to complete it.


So you show there can be peace then wipe them out to save yourself.  It is an inherent contradiction that highlights the problems and how the claims of conflict between organic and synthetic being inevitable have a large amount of truth to them. Words of equality are mouthed and held up only as long as organics feel as if they are not being hindered or burdened by them. And as soon as that happens synthetics are thrown under the bus. Ironically you condemn the Catalyst yet do everything it fears would happen thus proving it correct.

The Catalyst only offers Shepard the choices because it sees that it's plan is slowly failing and in a few more cycle it will fail completely. Thus it needs a new and different solution to prevent the conflict from starting up and wiping out organic life.  The who's to say applies equally to all endings. Who's to say choosing destroy doesn't lead to a new form of synesthetic life that learns about how you threw the Geth under the bus to save your own neck. Instigates a ware and wipes out all organic life in the galaxy? Your own mind seems to be twisting the truth just as much as the Catalyst is to you. It is the power of perception and how you can have 5 people see the exact same event and have 5 different ideas of what really happened.

Or to put it shortly you see what you want to see.

The tie between Biotics and Dark Energy was in the audio Codex on "Biotics", starting with the first game. Probably easy to miss.

Shepard should be dead after Harbinger fired his beam of doom.  By having Shepard survive, Bioware is telling me Shepard is more powerful than the gunship and makos seen being destroyed on the beam run. Plus look at the soldiers that are dead near Shepard as he/she deals with the husks and mirauder shields

Some other things I was gonna mention.. I think there was so much on the drawing board still that that is why they didn't get into it. Drew K somewhat meant the Human Reaper to be a sort of "last ditch" effort on the part of the Reapers, to control that dark energy problem. Or at least, that was one of his ideas. But they didn't pin it down. And Harbinger's combat barks were focused on the value of human specimens especially. But biotics moreso. The barks rarely come up, but if he's attacking Jack or Miranda or something, he's got more to say. And also, the Shadow Broker tells Shepard he'll pay almost as much for Jack as he would for Shep. And I think it led to this dark energy thing he was going for.

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-19-ex-bioware-writer-discusses-dropped-ideas-for-mass-effect-trilogy-ending




And this is also why I think he started focusing on human biotics in novels too.