Beyond the flawed logic of the Catalyst, why was this never explained?

You are talking about different gambits. If a car runs you over, you will end up dead. You, not the organic beings as a whole. What did we do to diseases that threatened us? Didn't we eradicate smallpox? Didn't we kill of wolves in Europe completely? Americans started extermination of wolves and bears because they threatened cattle. What do you think we would do if something theatened our existance, or existance of life? 

Reapers have tried to make peace, catalyst says so before, but peace always collapsed inevitably with time. Why does everyone imagine that the first thing Reapers did when they were turned on was to start killing of species? Leviathans corroborate their story, they literally tell you that whole organic races were exterminated by synthetics over and over again, which is why they created reapers to stop it. 

And yet the same argument repeats over and over, hur-dur I made peace between Quarians and the Geth, that peace will last till the death of the universe and whole argument of the reapers is invalid, since peace like this never happened in billions of years that they existed, hur-dur. Really?

Yeah, congratulations Gothpunk, you won. 

"Listen to this story we have to tell you that has nothing of relevance to the things you witnessed, or the rest of the story, and therefore has zero emotional or intellectual resonance despite the fact that you can't technically deny that it makes sense, except to those that totally found it brilliant".

Fantastic way to wrap up a trilogy if you ask me. A left-field twist introducing a new conflict, a new protagonist (Reapers and the AI) and 3 choices that resolve the elements solely shown in the twist itself (and also resolves ME123 albeit secondarily),  and a 15$ DLC to back it up with evidence and 15$ extra for a squadmate that helps you have a chance of even predicting this was part of the story.

Cause and effect, I can't see you. Why were you not inside the plot?

Ding ding ding ding.

I fully concede that it makes sense whatever the Catalyst says, it's not incomprehensible, but I also argue that I think it's a useless hypothesis but an understandable precaution since the Catalyst and his creators actually had a genuine conflict that threatened existence. I only have a problem with it because it does not play into what the story of Mass Effect was up to that point of the reveal (or Leviathan ) and I just point its seeming stupidity out because I have nothing but spite towards this particular plot-development and how much unwanted baggage to the lore it brought with it, and how lame it is in the way it recontextualizes what the Reapers supposedly always were, which mostly only seems supported of ME1's overall direction that changed course drastically throughout 2 and 3 (mainly talking about Quarians but also lessened emphasis on Synthetic dangers in ME3 -- they're all depicted as "human" and wonderful and Pinnochios)

My counterargument to what you say that the Reapers are the core conflict and their story becoming the core conflict makes the Catalyst scene valid, all I have to say is: The Reapers are not the protagonists. They're the antagonists and we're not supposed to suddenly see them turn into the good guys that we have to help to fight a Diabolus Ex Machina like it's a friggin Sonic game.

And yet you continue to ignore the fact that all the events that take place in game only happen because they Reapers exist. All those events that you say disproves their assertion only happen because they enforce their assertion. You take them away and their effects of existing and being a threat to everyone. You are so focused one part of the over all story. You are ignoring all other parts that don't fit what you want them to. Can't see the forest for the trees so to speak.



Problem with that is the Reapers are never given any context beyond the fact they every 50,000 years harvest all advanced organic and synthetic life and have done so for thousands of times. ME 2 added a bit extra were they will take a race or races each harvest and use them to create a new Reaper.  ME3 doesn't recontextualize anything because nothing changes beyond actually giving a motive to reasons that before were very vague.  Knowing they are doing it as a way to prevent synthetic life from wiping out organic life doesn't change the fact they are super advanced, near immortal beings who have existed for millions of years. With every 50,000 years they invade the galaxy and wipe out all advanced organic and synthetic life. Using said being to create a new Reaper to house the collective memories and data concerning that race.  Now it might recontexualize some of your head canon. But that is simply head canon and nothing actually said or hinted by the game.

The only direction that changed drastically was ME 2. And the problems inherent with ME 2 are vast and well known. But even then all it did was make the issue more grey rather then the strict black and white set up ME 1 had. Were the Geth were very by the book Skynet evil AI's. But this also applies to Krogan and Genophage as first game was extremely sympathetic and pro Krogan. ME 2 actually gave voice for the pro genophage and gave a look into Krogan culture that shows how the implementation of it and maintenance of it is rather justified. When you have a Shaman saying that the ancients bombing themselves and their planet into a radioactive hell hole was a good thing. Because their death showed they were not strong enough. Or that most Krogan don't care about what Wrex is doing only going along because he is clan leader and he will either lead or be killed by someone stronger then they will follow them.

ME 2 shows the Geth are not inherently violent. As in they do not seek out people to pick fights with. How ever history has shown once they do start a fight they are relentless and brutal in war in a way that would make even a Krogan blush. Even when the Reaper was controlling the Geth it didn't update or supply any super advanced Reaper tech upgrades to all their ships. All the Reaper did was unlock their full potential. And everything you saw while the Reapers were controlling them is capable of happening again the second you agree to upgrade the Geth.  Hell the Geth were more then willing to lead the Heretics leave and do what ever they want. But they don't even care that the Heretics attacked and killed hundreds of thousands of organics. But the second the Heretics target them they are willing to mind wipe them or out right destroy them completely.  Both of those actions are fairly ruthless options to take.  There isn't even any information to back up the fact they have been having skirmishes or other problems were they have created peace agreements or other similar set ups. That the Heretics keep violating thus pushing the Geth into action.  First offense and boom lobotomy or genocide of that entire group.

That threat is reduced in ME 3 because the Reapers exist and much like a war reduces threat of petty crime that threat gets put on the back burner because a larger more serious threat exists now. It doesn't actually diminish the threat just changes to what needs to be focused on ATM. And people keep saying Pinocchio's yet I don't see it. EDI was created and raised her entire life around humans. That will color her perception.  And Legion and the Geth by extension actually developing a sense of individuality because they were upgraded and move beyond their crippling dependency on each other for basic intelligence. Because seriously the entire basis of the Geth before that is they would need dozens of Geth Programs to equal the same intelligence as the average organic. In a situation like that individuality simply isn't a concept they could grasp because without the group there is no thought.

But the whole set up of humans specifically are super special awesome has existed since ME 1. Nothing changed about that across the entire trilogy.

 




Do you realize how many stories exist with that kind of set up. Were the antagonist becomes the good guy to fight an even worse guy. It is an extremely common event in a lot of stories. Hell one of the most popular Dragon Ball Z characters follows that exact set up. Vegeta is introduced as a ruthless warrior who kills Nappa the guy who literally raised him. Simply because he was paralyzed. He is a walking superiority complex and looks down on anyone who isn't him as inferior cattle compared to himself. Yet he teams up and saves Gohan's and Krillin's life because the threat the Ginyu Force and later Frieza. Literally becoming the protagonist to the point when he is killed it is an emotional moment. Even though his character introduction and in deed most of the Frieza Saga has him doing what he wants and killing who ever gets in the way of his goal. To the point of wiping out an entire Namekian Village simply because he can. Or more main stream assuming of course DBZ isn't main stream. The Winter Solider is set up to be completely bad and evil and the main antagonist of the movie Winter Solider. And yet at the end Bucky save's the Captain's life and in Civil War he returns as the protagonist. And helps stop not only the main antagonist. Nameless Marvel Villain # 9. But also against the antagonist of Tony and his group which directly contradict Captain and his group.

So when you say this isn't suppose to happen. What you are really doing is ignoring the countless movies, TV shows, games, comics, etc that exist that has this exact thing happening.

And yet both ME 1 and 2 also end because of Deus Ex Machina. So by that logic all the entire trilogy sucked badly because of how each game ended. Mass Effect is just over all a terrible story.

If we extend this premise even further then Marvel is the most shit story tellers ever even though their movies regularly generate millions at the box office. Their films and their endings are filled to the brim with Deus Ex Machina BS. You seriously telling me that a high advanced race under control of Thanos wouldn't be able to withstand or even attempt to block a simple nuke from striking it. Or that the nuke would some how blow up the entire factory.

What did I end up creating here... ;-;

Don't worry about it.  There's just one person who only posts about the genophage and Synthesis.  If anyone disagrees with that person, he will make lengthy posts attempting to "prove" he's right and you're wrong, bring in completely unrelated stuff in some strange attempt at making a point, and won't accept "agree to disagree".  If it wasn't in this thread it would be in another.  And has been.  Plus, the posts are too lengthy to be bothered with.

But then your talking about selective reasoning. And the same argument can be applied to ME trilogy as Marvel or Star Wars. How is the Catalyst existing any different from Tony in Civil War suddenly going berserk beyond all logical reason to attack Capt and Bucky. Even though he knows Bucky was mind controlled and had no control of his actions.  Getting pissed off, yelling, leaving feeling betrayed all would be logical steps. But getting into an all out bare knuckle brawl for no reason other then because the script says so makes no sense.

As does other events like nameless Marvel Villan #9 some how being able to construct an EMP device in his room without anyone noticing it. And being able to some how get it out of the closet it was in even though it was wider then the doors. Being able to afford the money to construct it, multiple international plane tickets and be able to buy enough explosive and get it right next to a congregation of intentional diplomats with no one knowing. Least till the magical last minute.  Then some how he goes into a high level military instillation were they do such a shitty job at background checks I could put on a wig and mustache and make it though security with said installation for some unknown reason not having a back up generator.  Two massive Deus Ex Machina's back to back to allow the plot to continue on. Not to mention all of these professional soldiers always seem to only aim for Bucky's metal arm. All 4 feet long and 9 inches wide of it. Making it an even more unrealistic version of Capt's shield. Because at least that covers his center of mass and soldiers are trained to go for center of mass.

And some people are such special snow flakes the concept that someone might disagree with their opinion is far to much for them to handle. So they go around making passive aggressive posts and being generally all stroppy. Go snow flake back to your twisted mutated form it's original intention of what a safe space is. So you can be around other people who don't' question your opinion. Which is clearly the most dear and important part of you.

Then I suppose the only way I really can enjoy most entertainment nowadays is to have selective reasoning. I know I keep going back to Babylon 5 but that show had a really good setup and the ending, while somewhat sad, was fitting for that show. I wonder if that means that most entertainment venues want people to see all the shiny things first and kinda ignore the concrete dissolving at the foundation.

I'd never thought I'd see someone even more critical then smud. Its quite a feat but if thats your thing, more power to you then. 

So is there really any way to ignore the man behind the curtain when it comes to deus ex resolutions? Even when it comes to the new boards here, one person's hollow and cheap ending is another person's "its perfect!" Or we try to look to the modding community to fix things. Makes me wonder what really makes a good story. One person's Dune is another person's Twilight train wreak. Guess I also have to factor in my own biases and what I can forgive when it comes to narrative underpinnings. 

I might have been able to stomach the starkid in some alternate universe if there had been more foreshadowing but in reality, unless you remove the darned thing, I don't think replacing him really would have satisfied me. Or maybe I am missing the forest for the trees. In any event, this whole thread has given me somethings to think about. 

I'm applying the same basis of story examination and criticism as players regularly apply to the terrible ME 3 ending as to a super popular and great Marvel film.  If you like Civil War but you hate ME3's ending then you are a massive contradiction in your own internal logic. Because everything BioWare has done Marvel has done as well. Which really leads to my feeling that 80% of all complaints about ME 3 are bollocks.

The ending not being what you expected or wanted is OK not to be happy with. But then to try and twist that to make the claim the ending is bad simply because you didn't want it to happen. Or much more commonly claim it doesn't make any sense because you don't like it is an unfortunate habit of many who complain about the game.  Not liking the ending or not being what you expected it to be is vastly different from it being a bad ending or an ending that doesn't make any sense.

There doesn't need any foreshadowing really to validate the existence of the Catalyst. Fact is everything in the game validates it's existence and the choices you make at the end. We know that the Reapers can not be beaten in conventional warfare. This history of thousands of cycles supports that. We know the Crucible is capable of something but nothing provides any solid proof to what it does. Everything about it is assumptions based on the desperate need to stop the Reapers. The Prothean VI knows there is something on the Citadel but doesn't know what.  We know there is a reason for the harvest but we don't know why.  The Catalyst for fills all of those requirements providing not only the solution that isn't conventional warfare but answer to the questions why the Reapers do what they do.

As for the logic something I see missed a lot and a problem that Linkenski seems to repeat. Is the Catalyst is talking about a world without the Reapers existing to stop the conflict. You can not argue the Reapers are wrong then use every event that their existence has caused either directly or indirectly. Their very existence and the threat they show they are capable of creates a paradoxical effect.  Namely in the sheer will to survive that both organic and synthetic life will have they will band together to fight the greater threat.  That how ever doesn't mean that with the threat gone everything will stay the same. Nor will it mean that if the threat never existed in the first place that things would have played out along the same lines.  And once you have eliminated the Reaper influence on events and actions and take a look at the set up of the galaxy and the paths everyone is going on. Suddenly the Catalysts logic isn't so far fetched. And while you can always argue things won't turn out 100% like it claims. The set up still makes the Catalyst's prediction be close to 100% accurate.