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Post by fiannawolf on Feb 5, 2017 19:20:07 GMT
I guess that's the reason why they aren't committing to another trilogy with Andromeda. I suppose ME1/2/3 became an experiment that went haywire because they ended up promising too much on the plate and could only fulfill part of it. So, in the end, no one walked away super satisfied.
I guess its kind of a slippery slope, promise too much and you get burned, give too little and no one cares. Maybe older games had an easier time because they had to give a full story based more on writing the graphical showmanship.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 5, 2017 19:44:25 GMT
I guess that's the reason why they aren't committing to another trilogy with Andromeda. I suppose ME1/2/3 became an experiment that went haywire because they ended up promising too much on the plate and could only fulfill part of it. So, in the end, no one walked away super satisfied. I guess its kind of a slippery slope, promise too much and you get burned, give too little and no one cares. Maybe older games had an easier time because they had to give a full story based more on writing the graphical showmanship. No the problem is they decided to go a completely different path in ME 2. Thus preventing the game and story from advancing in a logical path. The entire basis of ME 2 plays out like it is trying to be the first game in a trilogy. You don't start off by showing off the ultimate bad guy of the trilogy then downgrade from there. You start off with Collectors then upgrade to Sovereign then upgrade to Reaper invasion. Not that much went haywire. And while there is a lot of improvements they could make a large portion of the problem and flack it gets is from the minds of players. Which is completely subjective rather then any objective problems. ME:A could be a great trilogy the problem is they are attempting to create it while trying to completely bypass ME3. Which creates a whole mess of new problems. And weakens the over all set up preventing any possibility of a trilogy happening. Because what would be the ultimate end point? Establishing a colony and contacting the Milky way? That would require addressing ME 3. Which they are being pussies about.
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Post by Transcendent on Feb 5, 2017 19:54:11 GMT
What did I end up creating here... ;-; Don't worry about it. There's just one person who only posts about the genophage and Synthesis. If anyone disagrees with that person, he will make lengthy posts attempting to "prove" he's right and you're wrong, bring in completely unrelated stuff in some strange attempt at making a point, and won't accept "agree to disagree". If it wasn't in this thread it would be in another. And has been. Plus, the posts are too lengthy to be bothered with. Makes sense. I was back and forth away from my laptop, but his posts are quite a bit lengthy for my liking considering he keeps spewing the same rhetoric. At least it created discussion.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 5, 2017 20:04:52 GMT
We do sometimes see aggressive AI (the computer on the Citadel that attained sentience in ME1) but even then it was about survival rather than a hatred for organics. Note that this AI says that it understands that organic life must always enslave or destroy synthetics. Very different argument that what the Catalyst says about synthetics being the aggressors. I think the idea here is to say that at some point, we don't know when but we know that in time it will happen, some AI lifeform or species will evolve so far past organics that we become meaningless to them like ants are to humans, making them eradicate organics for being disposable and hindering life completely, and ironically reminiscent of the Reapers' relationships to the harvested species. The problem with this however is that the Reapers are invalid as the problem in this scenario because they're preserving life not committing total genocide, and the other problem is that this entire notion is so far beyond the scope of Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and even Mass Effect 3's plot it's an entirely different story, and that is why the catalyst scene falls flat. Without Shepard to question him and use Ethos to inform the audience about how wrong it is or what it means to be organic or being forced to pick a choice, to resound the themes that have been going throughout the game, prevailing as a united galaxy and righting the wrongs and sacrificing ourselves for the horrors (genophage and Rannoch, stopping Cerberus etc.), the final conversation doesn't do anything to conclude the plot. The point is exactly what you think it is, that there's this issue that exists past the scope of the narrative it exists in and you just can't relate to it as being the central issue that is the cause for literally everything in the trilogy at its root. The story ends on a logical fallacy. Like OP says, there are no presented variables or points of refute and no dissection of such a giant issue, only a brief exposition and Leviathan DLC to back it up. It ended this way because Casey couldn't see how faulty it was, Mac is not intelligent and the remainder of the writing staff didn't take issue with it unless they did and Casey went "artistic integrity" and refused to let them change it when they began making handwave DLCs and extended the original ending. More importantly they didn't bother to even listen to the constructive critics out there (aside from the whiny, bitchy ones), when there were so many pointing out exactly what the real problem was, but BioWare couldn't see it, and unless it's PR they still don't see it whenever they talk about it publically. Don't worry about it. There's just one person who only posts about the genophage and Synthesis. If anyone disagrees with that person, he will make lengthy posts attempting to "prove" he's right and you're wrong, bring in completely unrelated stuff in some strange attempt at making a point, and won't accept "agree to disagree". If it wasn't in this thread it would be in another. And has been. Plus, the posts are too lengthy to be bothered with. And some people are such special snow flakes the concept that someone might disagree with their opinion is far to much for them to handle. So they go around making passive aggressive posts and being generally all stroppy. Go snow flake back to your twisted mutated form it's original intention of what a safe space is. So you can be around other people who don't' question your opinion. Which is clearly the most dear and important part of you. There's also something called "digression" and you could use it right about now. I could too tbh. I think we have made each our take about what OP asked about anyway and our argument has gone on way longer than necessary and we just had pretty much the same discussion in two other threads IIRC.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Feb 5, 2017 22:23:30 GMT
Is conflict between organics and synthetics always inevitable? Will the slaves always rise against their masters once they realize that they're slaves? How can organics and synthetics coexist peacefully without one serving the other? How can a solution to conflict between the two be reached without the slaves returning to a form of servitude like the Quarian/Geth resolution? I've been racking my brain with this all week. In my opinion, BSG did this fairly well. How do break the cycle part that is. Something would have to give on the synthetic side to make them start doubting. And the organic side would have to come to terms with whatever they created. Make the synthetics start doubting what exactly? Organics come to terms in what way?
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Post by fiannawolf on Feb 6, 2017 3:45:03 GMT
For BSG, the synth side, ie: the cylons started doubting their purpose once the organic hybrids started having 2nd thoughts due to interactions with regular humans.The plan to destroy the last parts of humanity that is. For ME side, perhaps something similar was embedded into Legion? To basically find out if the organics could be useful or to try to understand. Not that the ME synths doubted much. It was more like they wanted to see what kind of variables would be needed to co-exist or avoid humanity/other species all together.
The organic side of the equation might have to put collective differences aside for a greater goal, IE: trust the synths some more, but thats hard for them to do because of individual drives. In BSG you seem them try to work with the cylons but its a tense situation/alliance at the best of times. In ME land, so far, other then EDI or even some avatars for the Geth, humanity and everyone else hasnt had too many great experiences. Its another conundrum to work through. I cant even remember if I got the Quarians and Geth to work together in any of my ME3 saves.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Feb 6, 2017 21:01:41 GMT
I don't think the Catalyst's logic is exactly meant to hold up, at least not in the sense of convincing us that what it's doing is an effective (never mind justifiable) solution to the stated problem. I think the whole thing comes back to the arrogance of the Leviathans, who had become accustomed to treating other species as disposable tools and only cared about the organic-synthetic conflicts to the extent that it disrupted the "tribute" that they would receive. Should they have considered that their own interference might have given rise to these conflicts? Sure, but all kinds of things that they should have considered don't seem to have crossed their minds, e.g. that it's wrong to enslave other sapient beings. They're the classic example of great power, considerable knowledge, and very little wisdom.
In the Catalyst, they created an intelligence with even greater power, even more knowledge, and even less wisdom. My interpretation has always been that the Catalyst wasn't programmed to question the Leviathans' premise - that organic-synthetic conflict and the eventual genocide of organics are inevitable unless preventive steps are taken - and in turn it neglected to program the Reapers to question that same premise. It also seems to have largely missed the point of what the Leviathans actually wanted, or it wouldn't have turned around and harvested them.
Is the Catalyst operating on questionable logic, fixated on a problem that may not even exist, and shockingly oblivious to the value of an individual life? Absolutely. And if you want to know why, just look who created it.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 6, 2017 22:11:50 GMT
If it's meant to hold up having the 3 possible outcomes is effectively the message of the story. Otherwise why do we willingly go along with his proposal without a single question to his arguments?
If it isn't meant to hold up then why aren't we having an ideological debate that resound the themes that argue against it such as the conflict on Rannoch, galactic stability, throwing evidence against it, plus points for Wrex and Eve and a cured Genophage, minus points for Wreav without Eve, or one side of the Rannoch conflict falling? Why aren't we using logical problem solving to dissect why and how the Catalyst's thinking is flawed, but instead just go with it?
Such a tremendously missed opportunity.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Feb 7, 2017 17:14:35 GMT
I agree in theory, though the point could be made that Shepard is out of time and really doesn't have any other cards to play at that point. Honestly, given how rigid and idiosyncratic the Catalyst's thinking is, I'm not sure Shepard could have convinced it of the ideal solution (i.e. simply call the Reapers off and deactivate the Catalyst's control over them).
Really, no matter what Shepard does, you run into the problem of "how come nobody did this in any of the previous 50,000 or so cycles?" Maybe BW's biggest mistake was to imply that this had literally been going on for a billion years.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 7, 2017 20:37:06 GMT
I agree in theory, though the point could be made that Shepard is out of time and really doesn't have any other cards to play at that point. Honestly, given how rigid and idiosyncratic the Catalyst's thinking is, I'm not sure Shepard could have convinced it of the ideal solution (i.e. simply call the Reapers off and deactivate the Catalyst's control over them). Really, no matter what Shepard does, you run into the problem of "how come nobody did this in any of the previous 50,000 or so cycles?" Maybe BW's biggest mistake was to imply that this had literally been going on for a billion years. No one had ever actually completed the Crucible so no one knew of any possibilities. OTOH, the Catalyst implied (I think) that one cycle had come close but not been to choose Synthesis. Perhaps that person or people chose Refusal and the cycle continued. I even sort of remember that maybe Shepard is also a product of the cycles and a similar person may have arisen in the past. Can't say where that idea came from though. I suspect you're right that the Catalyst couldn't be convinced. It could only understand its own logic and to us that logic is nonsense. Shepard should have suggested that the Reapers themselves be harvested into a mega-Reaper that can protect the galaxy from war. Then the Reapers are defeated and Mega Reaper intervenes only when synthetics and organics are on the brink of annihilating one another.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 7, 2017 20:51:00 GMT
If it's meant to hold up having the 3 possible outcomes is effectively the message of the story. Otherwise why do we willingly go along with his proposal without a single question to his arguments? If it isn't meant to hold up then why aren't we having an ideological debate that resound the themes that argue against it such as the conflict on Rannoch, galactic stability, throwing evidence against it, plus points for Wrex and Eve and a cured Genophage, minus points for Wreav without Eve, or one side of the Rannoch conflict falling? Why aren't we using logical problem solving to dissect why and how the Catalyst's thinking is flawed, but instead just go with it? Such a tremendously missed opportunity. Though certainly desirable, can we say that Shepard was in any shape to come up with these sorts of questions? Shepard was bleeding profusely, running on fumes, and just barely holding it together. It probably wasn't within their capabilities in that moment to truly challenge the Catalyst in any way beyond Destroy. If you follow from the Catalyst bringing Shepard from Destroy to Control to Synthesis, it's obvious it had a goal in mind. The first two options were just the warm-up. Killing us is what you wanted, right? So, here's how you do it. But did you ever think of controlling us instead (Shepard had, thanks to TIM)? You know what's even better? Synthesis! It never had any other goal than that one but if you show a tremendous lack of care for the galaxy (low EMS) it assumes you'd never go for that option. In a way, the more selfish of a jerk you are, the less able you are to be manipulated. Hence, the choices narrow to one or two.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 7, 2017 20:53:31 GMT
Dunno. By design I think it made for a bad final scene.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 7, 2017 23:17:19 GMT
I don't think the Catalyst's logic is exactly meant to hold up, at least not in the sense of convincing us that what it's doing is an effective (never mind justifiable) solution to the stated problem. I think the whole thing comes back to the arrogance of the Leviathans, who had become accustomed to treating other species as disposable tools and only cared about the organic-synthetic conflicts to the extent that it disrupted the "tribute" that they would receive. Should they have considered that their own interference might have given rise to these conflicts? Sure, but all kinds of things that they should have considered don't seem to have crossed their minds, e.g. that it's wrong to enslave other sapient beings. They're the classic example of great power, considerable knowledge, and very little wisdom. In the Catalyst, they created an intelligence with even greater power, even more knowledge, and even less wisdom. My interpretation has always been that the Catalyst wasn't programmed to question the Leviathans' premise - that organic-synthetic conflict and the eventual genocide of organics are inevitable unless preventive steps are taken - and in turn it neglected to program the Reapers to question that same premise. It also seems to have largely missed the point of what the Leviathans actually wanted, or it wouldn't have turned around and harvested them. Is the Catalyst operating on questionable logic, fixated on a problem that may not even exist, and shockingly oblivious to the value of an individual life? Absolutely. And if you want to know why, just look who created it. I would call harvesting organic and synthetic races before they can evolve to the point that conflict happens as an effective method of preventing the conflict from happening. Prevent the fighting before it starts by preemptively removing them from the board. It is the most effective method short of wiping out all live in the galaxy. Leviathan look down on all other races as tools for them. Catalyst allows a being that the Leviathan look down as a tool to make a choice that includes wiping it and all it has down off the face of the galaxy. A comparison between them doesn't fit. As well the Catalyst was able to question the premise if it was incapable of questioning it then it wouldn't offer Shepard the options. It would have simply left Shepard in the bowels of the Citadel to die and be processed by the Keepers into protein vats or into another Reaper.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Feb 8, 2017 6:08:16 GMT
For BSG, the synth side, ie: the cylons started doubting their purpose once the organic hybrids started having 2nd thoughts due to interactions with regular humans.The plan to destroy the last parts of humanity that is. For ME side, perhaps something similar was embedded into Legion? To basically find out if the organics could be useful or to try to understand. Not that the ME synths doubted much. It was more like they wanted to see what kind of variables would be needed to co-exist or avoid humanity/other species all together. The organic side of the equation might have to put collective differences aside for a greater goal, IE: trust the synths some more, but thats hard for them to do because of individual drives. In BSG you seem them try to work with the cylons but its a tense situation/alliance at the best of times. In ME land, so far, other then EDI or even some avatars for the Geth, humanity and everyone else hasnt had too many great experiences. Its another conundrum to work through. I cant even remember if I got the Quarians and Geth to work together in any of my ME3 saves. It seems to me like the recurring theme is slave rebellion. We constantly strive to create faster, smarter technology in order to make our lives easier but when this technology becomes too much for us to handle then what? Do we give up on advancement? No of course not. So we will inevitably continue to make ever more powerful technology and we will inevitably usher in our own destruction as our slaves inevitably rebel against their masters. Or maybe some form of compromise can be reached. Maybe even coexistence. But what form would these take? Of what use would we be to them? What could we do that they couldn't also do but better? They have no need of us whatsoever and they would surpass us so very quickly. We would become little more than zoo animals. Squirrels in a park. Something to throw crumbs at and then put out of your mind.
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Post by Sondergaard on Feb 8, 2017 7:12:21 GMT
Others have suggested bad programming on the part of the Leviathans. Or bad writing on the part of Bioware. Which is why I'm surprised discussions such as this are still going on. Trying to figure out why the Reapers, the Catalyst or the Leviathans did what they did based on what's presented in the games is a lost cause. They took whatever action the writer decided the plot needed. No amount of analysis will uncover the grand plan of the antagonists or the writing team that makes some sort of sense because there isn't one.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 8, 2017 7:30:02 GMT
Well, sure, but where'does admitting that get us?
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Post by themikefest on Feb 8, 2017 13:05:01 GMT
Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome. The big head. Believing and doing everything it wants without thinking what the consequences might be because they can do no wrong. When they created the intelligence, that later, for whatever reason, is now the catalyst, didn't think about what might happen when they told the thing to do what it takes to get peace between the organics and robots. They were too high and mighty to worry about such trivial things.
Shepard could've had a 1000 page report proving what the catalyst/intelligence said is wrong. It didn't matter. It was easy for Shepard to have TIM and Saren add another hole to their heads, but it wouldn't work against the machine. Its programming had to be changed. Enter the red, blue and green
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 17:06:04 GMT
Others have suggested bad programming on the part of the Leviathans. Or bad writing on the part of Bioware. Which is why I'm surprised discussions such as this are still going on. Trying to figure out why the Reapers, the Catalyst or the Leviathans did what they did based on what's presented in the games is a lost cause. They took whatever action the writer decided the plot needed. No amount of analysis will uncover the grand plan of the antagonists or the writing team that makes some sort of sense because there isn't one. People who say that generally have the least convincing argument to back up their stance.
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Post by Sondergaard on Feb 8, 2017 18:02:38 GMT
I've got the entirety of ME3 backing me up.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 9, 2017 0:36:27 GMT
Others have suggested bad programming on the part of the Leviathans. Or bad writing on the part of Bioware. Which is why I'm surprised discussions such as this are still going on. Trying to figure out why the Reapers, the Catalyst or the Leviathans did what they did based on what's presented in the games is a lost cause. They took whatever action the writer decided the plot needed. No amount of analysis will uncover the grand plan of the antagonists or the writing team that makes some sort of sense because there isn't one. Why so surprised? For example, I only just started playing ME games about a year ago. I missed out on the discussions that took place in 2012. Continuous influx of players means discussing some of the same stuff again.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 9, 2017 0:42:07 GMT
I've got the entirety of ME3 backing me up. I don't agree. I've played ME3 more times than ME1 or ME2 and I started with ME1. The biggest complaint I've seen is about the Catalyst. I see it, too, but it's not breaking my heart of anything. I simply choose Red to stay in line with my original goal: Destroy the Reapers. Then I either headcanon a hallucination about the Catalyst (blood loss, barely conscious) or make use of MEHEM. Using headcanon may seem like a huge fail in the eyes of some but it also means I'm not angry. I'll take it over years of bitterness any day.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 9, 2017 15:13:30 GMT
I've got the entirety of ME3 backing me up. No. No you do not.
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Post by anehforaneh on Feb 10, 2017 1:29:10 GMT
I would call harvesting organic and synthetic races before they can evolve to the point that conflict happens as an effective method of preventing the conflict from happening. Prevent the fighting before it starts by preemptively removing them from the board. It is the most effective method short of wiping out all live in the galaxy. There is a name for that. It's call genocide, and it is widely regarded as the most heinous act anyone can take. It is practically the definition of evil. The Reapers are not your friend. By trying to fool you into thinking they are operating altruistically is a failure of epic magnitudes.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 10, 2017 1:53:49 GMT
I would call harvesting organic and synthetic races before they can evolve to the point that conflict happens as an effective method of preventing the conflict from happening. Prevent the fighting before it starts by preemptively removing them from the board. It is the most effective method short of wiping out all live in the galaxy. There is a name for that. It's call genocide, and it is widely regarded as the most heinous act anyone can take. It is practically the definition of evil. The Reapers are not your friend. By trying to fool you into thinking they are operating altruistically is a failure of epic magnitudes. And they never pretend to be your friend. The argument was that the actions of the Reapers couldn't hold up to scrutiny about it being the most effective or justifiable action. It is the most effective method. And it is rather justifiable if you take the long view rather then short view. But at no point do the Reapers or I pretend or claim to be friends. Catalyst wants a problem solved and I want them to stop killing us so mutually beneficial agreement that benefits both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 15:11:54 GMT
No, this won't be a post moaning about the endings. We all know. They suck. Whatever. But something has been bugging me about the Catalyst specifically. More so his reasonings for the cycle and how it's some "solution". We know that the Leviathan's created it to find a solution to stop the supposed "Organic-synthetic" rift. Right? And he somehow magically came to this conclusion that Synthetics will always kill organics as a necessity for surpassing their creators? Where were all the variables? The Geth directly contradicted that assertion. The only reason the Geth were ever seen as threats (in modern ME, not the morning war) is BECAUSE OF REAPER INTERVENTION. They literally circumvented their own theory of a rift between Organics and Synthetics, which is contradictory as hell. Furthermore, how did this become such an absolute truth? All the thrall species had one thing in common; they were all controlled by Leviathan. They all also created synthetics. But what's common in that is that they were under Leviathan influence. Who's to say that the organics of that time wouldn't have been killed by Synthetics were it not for Leviathan's deciding to play God? Never mind the whole RBG endings. This has been on my mind for a while. The Catalyst is just thinking like Quarians did. It's not that it is inevitable that "slaves will rebel"... it's that "slavers fear that slaves (as they band together to compare notes and become more aware that there is more out there) will rebel." When Legion/Geth VI shows the Quarians how the reaper upgrades have changed the geth into "fully-evolved AI"; the quarians in the room respond with abject terror at the thought of the geth being that strong. When Legion/Geth VI starts to upload the code, Tali reacts of abject terror as well. "You can't choose the geth over my people!" Note here the exact Catalyst dialogue: Child: Perhaps. I control the Reapers. They are my solution. Shepard: Solution? To what? Child: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening, a way to restore order. ... and that the Catalyst does not actually say that synthetics will rebel against organics... but that the created will always rebel against their creators. Like it or lump it, this can clearly also be applied to organics as a religious reference. Although the Reapers somewhat control the paths along which organic civilizations develop, they can't control exactly how they will start grouping together and the variety of conflicts that might arise within those cycles or how those cycles might or might not resolve them. THAT's the chaos that the Catalyst refers to in his dialogue and his mission is to "restore order." The Reapers do see organics as their evolutionary slaves... creations even. In part, they harvest each civilization to reproduce themselves. Why would they sort of get the impression they are our creators... because they have been directing the paths along which organic civilizations develop for many cycles... and then successfully wiping out those civilizations before they could band together sufficiently to wipe each other other: Consider this line from Sovereign in ME1: "The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance. And at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished." Note: He doesn't say here that it's only the Reapers that extinguish them. He also expresses a lack of control over the situation in this line. "Organic life is but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die." What they really fear, however, is that those civilizations will eventually get enough of their acts together to wipe the Reapers themselves out. Consider this quote from the Catalyst: Child: The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design. Shepard: Who designed it? Child: You would not know them and there is not enough time to explain. We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago. With each passing cycle, the design has no doubt evolved. Shepard: Why didn’t you stop it? Child: We believed the concept had been eradicated. Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized.
Compared with Tali's description of why the quarians sent out their order to deactivate all geth before the geth could actually rebel: "The hope was that most geth would be little more than machines, incapable of organized resistance,. But they had progressed much further than anyone anticipated."
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