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Post by themikefest on Feb 19, 2017 23:58:38 GMT
It's meant to illustrate a real life application of the two terms - "intelligence" and "catalyst"... They aren't mutually exclusive IRL, so why would they have to be mutually exclusive in the game? Then why didn't Shepard ask if Leviathan knew what the catalyst is?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 0:01:11 GMT
It's meant to illustrate a real life application of the two terms - "intelligence" and "catalyst"... They aren't mutually exclusive IRL, so why would they have to be mutually exclusive in the game? Then why didn't Shepard ask if Leviathan knew what the catalyst is? There's that straw man again. He probably should have. I think he just forgot.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 0:26:48 GMT
There's that straw man again. He probably should have. I think he just forgot. There is no straw man again. Its you bringing that up because you don't have an answer. And saying Shepard forgot isn't going to cut it. It's Bioware not planning ahead. Or as sH0tgUn jUliA calls it, Bad Writing Theory(BWT)
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 20, 2017 0:38:40 GMT
It's meant to illustrate a real life application of the two terms - "intelligence" and "catalyst"... They aren't mutually exclusive IRL, so why would they have to be mutually exclusive in the game? Then why didn't Shepard ask if Leviathan knew what the catalyst is? Because Catalyst was the Prothean term for it much like Reaper was Prothean term for it. At least with Reaper there is a connection to be made so they know about it.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 0:44:59 GMT
Still doesn't answer the question why Shepard never asked Leviathan if knew what the catalyst is?
And if the prothean term for the Citadel is catalyst, why didn't Javik call it that? Or why didn't the 2 vi's on Ilos say catalyst?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 0:45:38 GMT
There's that straw man again. He probably should have. I think he just forgot. There is no straw man again. Its you bringing that up because you don't have an answer. And saying Shepard forgot isn't going to cut it. It's Bioware not planning ahead. Or as sH0tgUn jUliA calls it, Bad Writing Theory(BWT) What does Shepard not asking Leviathan have to do with the point that they can call the same thing both intelligent and a catalyst. You're the one with the agenda here to prove up "bad writing theory." I just entered the conversation here saying that the terms used are not mutually exclusive of each. The Catalyst can be both a catalyst and an intelligence. Your asking why they called it two different things is the straw man here since it has nothing to do with whether or not Shepard asked about it. Bioware's selection of naming terms for both has to do with forms of change. I don't think that's accidental. It's more likely symbolic, just as a number of the other names they use for things are symbolic and suggestive of different themes in the game. Even Shepard's name being suggestive of Jesus is symbolic and does tie into where the game takes his character in the end. Catalyst - "a person or thing that precipitates an event." and "a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change." Crucible - "a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development" Furthermore, what differentiates an AI from a VI in the mass effect universe is being "self-aware" and, in relation to EDI, the idea of being able to make changes to oneself (discussed on the bridge and discussed with Javik in the AI Core). Synthesis is a change. So is replacement of one Catalyst with another (control), and so is the total destruction of the Reapers since the status quo for the last several millenia has been that reaper harvest all sapient species in the galalxy every 50,000 years. There is also an element of Control in the definition of the term "citadel": "a fortress that commands a city and is used in the control of the inhabitants and in defense during attack or siege." www.dictionary.com/browse/citadel
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 0:52:05 GMT
Shepard doesn't know the intelligence and catalyst are one in the same when talking with Leviathan. It shouldn't be a problem for Shepard to ask Leviathan if it knows what the catalyst is? Why wouldn't Bioware have Shepard ask that question?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 20, 2017 1:03:59 GMT
Shepard doesn't know the intelligence and catalyst are one in the same when talking with Leviathan. It shouldn't be a problem for Shepard to ask Leviathan if it knows what the catalyst is? Why wouldn't Bioware have Shepard ask that question? Because it would have resulted in not getting a answer thus making the whole action ultimately a waste of time to bother to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 1:10:10 GMT
Shepard doesn't know the intelligence and catalyst are one in the same when talking with Leviathan. It shouldn't be a problem for Shepard to ask Leviathan if it knows what the catalyst is? Why wouldn't Bioware have Shepard ask that question? Crikey... and my answer is that "he probably just forgot" (i.e BIOWARE just forgot to have him ask that question). It's not like they intentionally go out of their way to write their games poorly.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 1:10:40 GMT
Without asking the question, there is no way to know if there would have been an answer. Right? How much time would have been wasted? A few seconds?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 1:13:05 GMT
Without asking the question, there is no way to know if there would have been an answer. Right? How much time would have been wasted? A few seconds? So... we don't know if Leviathan would have had an answer. Many people play the game without even playing the Leviathan DLC... so, for them, Shepard doesn't even have the opportunity to ask the question.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 20, 2017 1:17:03 GMT
Without asking the question, there is no way to know if there would have been an answer. Right? How much time would have been wasted? A few seconds? A few seconds that is a waste of resources. Leviathan know the Intelligence is out there. It knows about the Reaper cycle having hidden from it on a blacked out planet. There would be no way for them to know the Intelligence is on the Citadel. Asking would result in no answer and would be a waste of resources to do so. So why bother with it? I mean if you ever develop a game feel free to add all the redundant and meaningless voice acting and animation to it you want. But I wouldn't bother with it because it's answer is fairly obvious to anyone paying attention. I'm not going to waste money to hand hold the minuscule amount of players that couldn't put two and two together on their own.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 1:17:41 GMT
So... we don't know if Leviathan would have had an answer. Many people play the game without even playing the Leviathan DLC... so, for them, Shepard doesn't even have the opportunity to ask the queston If the question isn't asked, there's no way to know if an answer would have been given. If no answer, at least the question was asked.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 20, 2017 1:20:18 GMT
Without asking the question, there is no way to know if there would have been an answer. Right? How much time would have been wasted? A few seconds? So... we don't know if Leviathan would have had an answer. Many people play the game without even playing the Leviathan DLC... so, for them, Shepard doesn't even have the opportunity to ask the question. Not to mention that "The Leviathan of Dis" was an offshoot note Chris L'Etoile or Hepler wrote into a planetary codex in ME1 or ME2 without any further lore. Then BioWare used it as an opportunity for DLC because there was no context for the Catalyst. Period.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 1:23:34 GMT
So its an answer that's fairly obvious to people that paid attention. I wonder how many who played the dlc would agree with that?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 1:53:26 GMT
So... we don't know if Leviathan would have had an answer. Many people play the game without even playing the Leviathan DLC... so, for them, Shepard doesn't even have the opportunity to ask the question. Not to mention that "The Leviathan of Dis" was an offshoot note Chris L'Etoile or Hepler wrote into a planetary codex in ME1 or ME2 without any further lore. Then BioWare used it as an opportunity for DLC because there was no context for the Catalyst. Period. .... and I've said they had the same sort of lack of foreshadowing about Seeker Swarms carrying off people in ME2 and about the Conduit being a back door onto the Citadel plaza in ME1. Of the three endgames, the idea of the catalyst being a means for Shepard to change the course of the war and alter the cyclic pattern established in the galaxy was far more predictable than the other two. That it could also be an artificial intelligence seems also predictable to me... and I did not have the Leviathan DLC the time first I played through ME3. Without the Leviathan DLC, the codex entries from ME1 would have simply been fluff techno-babble entries that led no where... like so many others of those planetary entries from ME1 and ME2. Put there for the people who like to stock up on meaningless trivia. You don't want to see a context... just as you don't want to admit there was no context for the change in behavior of seeker swarms nor any context for the Conduit leading us right back to the Citadel... because that would show that the plot planning and foreshadowing in ME1 was every bit as "bad" as in ME3.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 20, 2017 2:10:27 GMT
Nope.
The difference is, the Conduit, despite its purpose not being telegraphed, is being built up throughout the game. The characters keep talking about it "What is the Conduit?", "We need to find it before Saren does!" just like the Catalyst and Crucible, but unlike those we know there's this thing called "Reapers" that have something to do with the Protheans mysteriously vanishing 50k years ago and the Conduit is linked to that fact according to the same audio log that mentions it in the first place.
There's enough information to make you prepared for something like that. We know the Conduit is important because it has something to do with these "reapers", and whatever led them to kill all Protheans and along with the twist about the Citadel and Mass Relays not being Prothean but Reaper-made we also learn from that, that the Citadel is not a safe place and thus the twist about the Conduit taking us there is pretty natural because we know the Reapers use their Citadel as a bait-and-switch, and now we're part of it as Saren and his Geth use it as a preliminary backstab against the Citadel's internal defenses.
You can argue as many have that the idea of Saren even needing to invade to open the link to Dark Space that the Keepers failed to do, is a pointless task since Reapers will obliterate anything as soon as they arrive at the station, but I think that's contrary to whether the Conduit's twist was well foreshadowed or not. You're saying that the Catalyst twist was as poorly foreshadowed as the Conduit when the Catalyst was way worse for not giving you a chance, in the vanilla game, of being in the know about "organics and synthetics" which is the equivalent to the Conduit having to do with "Reapers".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 2:14:57 GMT
Nope. The difference is, the Conduit, despite its purpose not being telegraphed, is being built up throughout the game. The characters keep talking about it "What is the Conduit?", "We need to find it before Saren does!" just like the Catalyst and Crucible, but unlike those we know there's this thing called "Reapers" that have something to do with the Protheans mysteriously vanishing 50k years ago and the Conduit is linked to that fact according to the same audio log that mentions it in the first place. There's enough information to make you prepared for something like that. We know the Conduit is important because it has something to do with these "reapers", and whatever led them to kill all Protheans and along with the twist about the Citadel and Mass Relays not being Prothean but Reaper-made we also learn from that, that the Citadel is not a safe place and thus the twist about the Conduit taking us there is pretty natural because we know the Reapers use their Citadel as a bait-and-switch, and now we're part of it as Saren and his Geth use it as a preliminary backstab against the Citadel's internal defenses. You can argue as many have that the idea of Saren even needing to invade to open the link to Dark Space that the Keepers failed to do, is a pointless task since Reapers will obliterate anything as soon as they arrive at the station, but I think that's contrary to whether the Conduit's twist was well foreshadowed or not. You're saying that the Catalyst twist was as poorly foreshadowed as the Conduit when the Catalyst was way worse for not giving you a chance, in the vanilla game, of being in the know about "organics and synthetics" which is the equivalent to the Conduit having to do with "Reapers". ... and the Catalyst is being built up as the "missing component" of the Crucible throughout the entire game. The characters in ME3 keep talking about not really knowing what the Crucible does. Without knowing what the Crucible does... it's really hard for them to even start to wonder what the Catalyst for making it do whatever it does would be like... but you always know through the entire game that it is the "trigger mechanism" for firing that Crucible... and ultimately, that's was Starbrat is... because, enemy or no, he's the one who ultimately explains how the whole device works. The idea is telegraphed in almost exactly the same way as the Conduit is... and then they (Bioware) pull their switcheroo with both and neither actually does what you thought it might. It's the same damn thing in both games. My expectation for the Conduit was that it was a Mass Relay gateway directly to the Reaper base... not a one-way, mini-me version of a mass relay that would just take me back to a public plaza on the Citadel (the place I had just left from to go chasing off all the way to Ilos). That part was never telegraphed anywhere in the game prior to meeting Vigil on Ilos.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 20, 2017 2:21:28 GMT
It didn't matter who faced the thing. Just had to be organic. An organic was needed to activate the crucible because the thing can't do it Leviathan calls the thing intelligence. The thing calls itself catalyst. Which one is right? Still curious why the protheans called the Citadel, catalyst when throughout the trilogy it was always called Citadel. Sovereign, both vi's on Ilos say Citadel, Javik says Citadel. Its only vendetta that calls it catalyst. I wonder if the group building the crucible at that time used that as a code word and the word catalyst was just a coincidence? I thought Vendetta said something like "the Citadel is the Catalyst". In other words, it was telling Shepard that the thing it was looking for - the Catalyst - was the Citadel. It wasn't renaming it so much as stating that they were one and the same.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 20, 2017 3:12:30 GMT
Yes. The Catalyst is a term referring to the missing, unknown component that makes the Crucible work. That turns out to be the citadel. It's like having a variable X that then turns out to be number 1, they're one and the same but one is an alias.
That's why I'm not completely torn about the Existence of the AI on the Citadel. It makes sense to me. I think of the child as being a representation of the AI that is the Citadel and I think of the Citadel as a giant but faceless Reaper-structure (that also doesn't indoctrinate) or like the Normandy where the metal surfaces of the Citadel is like the skin the same way EDI says she can feel herself through the normandy after getting unshackled in ME2.
The Crucible needs the Citadel to work, which is the Catalyst and the child is just a pop-up message that makes you able to interact with the Citadel's AI as hologram. The citadel contains the actual function of the Crucible when the energy is released and the Crucible is just the thing generating the energy. The big million dollar question is how did Vendetta VI, a prothean construct, know about the Citadel having an AI that uses the Crucible to fire it if the Starchild reveals that Shepard is the first organic to know of its existence? It probably comes down to the fact that protheans have their info about the Crucible passed down from several cycles and the Crucible originates from the cycle that started it all when it was being developed alongside the Catalyst's solution.
You could think of it as the Crucible being the organic species of Leviathan's time making an attempt to create a solution for the issues about organics and synthetics while the Catalyst found a "synthetic" solution but in the end the organic solution (the crucible) needed the synthetic solution (the Catalyst/Citadel/Reapers) to make the ultimate solution.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 20, 2017 3:34:14 GMT
We know the Crucible had things added to it throughout at least several cycles. We don't know that the Catalyst was always part of that design. Again, it seems likely that the Catalyst was meant to be something like a power source without anyone knowing the AI was present. Whoever designed it or contributed simply thought they'd link up to the Citadel and it would fire, killing all the Reapers (like MEHEM does).
The alternative is that the Intelligence designed the Crucible in the first place in seeking its solution. It took multiple cycles with various races contributing in order to come up with a solution that worked for it. Then it also needed an intelligence (lower case "i") to figure out what to do with it. The Protheans had figured out that the Crucible needed the Catalyst (or, heck, other cycles may have as well) but either not all the right things were in place and/or no one had actually succeeded in completing it. Or, even if completed, no one made it to the beam or got past their cycle's version of TIM.
The more I look at all of this, the more I think the Crucible has to be designed by the Intelligence/Catalyst. Then it simply waited until a race was both willing and capable of creating it.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2017 3:56:15 GMT
The more I look at all of this, the more I think the Crucible has to be designed by the Intelligence/Catalyst. Then it simply waited until a race was both willing and capable of creating it. Its possible. It could be the keepers that made the plans. They know the Citadel inside and out. Do they know about the catalyst? Don't know. I'm sure the plans they made were for a device that was designed to destroy the reapers. Over countless cycles, each adding something without knowing what they added would do anything. Its possible one of the species wanted to control the reapers to control them. So they added stuff that might be able to do that. The next cycle adds whatever without ever knowing one of the choices is to control the reapers. Many cycles later, another species decide they want to be buddy-buddy with the machines so they came up with the green choice without ever knowing if that would work. The next cycles adds whatever without knowing about the additions that can do whatever. Along comes our cycle. Its believe the device can destroy the reapers, but don't know about the other possible choices. Shepard meets the thing. The player learns about the colors. I don't know. I'm likely wrong about that.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 20, 2017 12:41:44 GMT
The more I look at all of this, the more I think the Crucible has to be designed by the Intelligence/Catalyst. Then it simply waited until a race was both willing and capable of creating it. Why the entire basis of it is that it has gone though unknown number of cycles to it's current form. Each group that added to it having a slightly different piece of the picture and slowly building on what each one had done.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 13:14:50 GMT
The more I look at all of this, the more I think the Crucible has to be designed by the Intelligence/Catalyst. Then it simply waited until a race was both willing and capable of creating it. Why the entire basis of it is that it has gone though unknown number of cycles to it's current form. Each group that added to it having a slightly different piece of the picture and slowly building on what each one had done. I don't see the two ideas as being mutually exclusive either. Sovereign indicates the idea that the Reapers are directing the paths along which OUR technology develops by having given us the Mass Relays... So this could include having "seeded" the idea for the Crucible. If it's ultimate goal is synthesis, then it has a vested interest in ultimately seeing a Crucible build that can effect the outcome. However, the contradiction to this sort of scenario lies in the Catalyst's admission that "we" (i.e. he and the Reapers) thought that the concept had been eradicated"... perhaps indicating that the technology had taken a "path" that was unforeseen and, hence, undesired, by the Catalyst and Reapers. I don't think we're meant to really know for sure just how much of what Shepard has been doing is just following the same doomed path as other cycles and how much of it is taking this cycle into previously "undiscovered" territory. ETA: One thing that intrigues me is that the galaxy map that appears when Vendetta is describing how each cycle repeats itself is the same pattern as the wave of energy that comes from the Crucible being fired by Shepard... and it's red (just like in the destroy ending). Is destroy breaking the cycle... or just repeating it? Maybe what we destroy are just "clone Reapers" with the knowledge of all the past species they encompass still being stored in some "safe" archive out in dark space somewhere. Maybe they don't actually retreat to dark space and hibernate... maybe they have actually been destroyed at the end of every previous cycle and it just takes 50,000 years to rebuild the Reaper fleet to start another harvest all over again? Maybe, as Barla Von indicated right at the start in ME1... this is a game we just can't win.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 20, 2017 16:16:46 GMT
Why the entire basis of it is that it has gone though unknown number of cycles to it's current form. Each group that added to it having a slightly different piece of the picture and slowly building on what each one had done. I don't see the two ideas as being mutually exclusive either. Sovereign indicates the idea that the Reapers are directing the paths along which OUR technology develops by having given us the Mass Relays... So this could include having "seeded" the idea for the Crucible. If it's ultimate goal is synthesis, then it has a vested interest in ultimately seeing a Crucible build that can effect the outcome. However, the contradiction to this sort of scenario lies in the Catalyst's admission that "we" (i.e. he and the Reapers) thought that the concept had been eradicated"... perhaps indicating that the technology had taken a "path" that was unforeseen and, hence, undesired, by the Catalyst and Reapers. I don't think we're meant to really know for sure just how much of what Shepard has been doing is just following the same doomed path as other cycles and how much of it is taking this cycle into previously "undiscovered" territory. ETA: One thing that intrigues me is that the galaxy map that appears when Vendetta is describing how each cycle repeats itself is the same pattern as the wave of energy that comes from the Crucible being fired by Shepard... and it's red (just like in the destroy ending). Is destroy breaking the cycle... or just repeating it? Maybe what we destroy are just "clone Reapers" with the knowledge of all the past species they encompass still being stored in some "safe" archive out in dark space somewhere. Maybe they don't actually retreat to dark space and hibernate... maybe they have actually been destroyed at the end of every previous cycle and it just takes 50,000 years to rebuild the Reaper fleet to start another harvest all over again? Maybe, as Barla Von indicated right at the start in ME1... this is a game we just can't win. Why wouldn't it build the Crucible it self then? Considering the Crucible design is based around the Citadel because the entire set up of it is to dock with Citadel and interact with Relay system. You can't code a game for a 360 then simply stick it in a PS3 because of how the PS3 fundamentally differs in how it reads games. The two are incompatible. The comment about saying how resourceful organics were I think kind of supports my hypothesis. Each race taking a bit of the larger picture to understand something and build on it to create the Crucible as it is shown in game. Even though it was thought to be destroyed long ago. I think the map was just using red to highlight the areas as it would stand out the best in the environment.
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