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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 16:14:51 GMT
Please no more Cerberus. I wouldn't object to a shady side to the Initiative at all, but don't link that to these posers. I've heard enough about them for a lifetime.
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Post by Vortex13 on Feb 2, 2017 16:16:06 GMT
Cerberus was an unabashed writer's pet that got way more narrative spotlight in the games and secondary media than was necessary; I mean a human supremacist organization operating in a setting wherein humanity is already dominating is asinine enough, but to continue to throw them to the forefront of everything, even moreso than the Reapers in ME 3 was really grating. It's time for some new stories BioWare, if you're going to bring over some more baggage from the Milky Way then at least do it with some facet of the setting that hasn't already been done to death. Species like the Rachni and Elcor have some rather compelling narratives to tell I'll wager; it would certainly be more original and compelling then having another: "Cerberus did it!" plot at any rate. Rachni would be cool but then their existence depends on a decision Shepard made in ME1. That makes it hard to include them. The main reason I think they would work is because a queen egg can lay unhatched for 1000 years and still be viable. It would just take one to be on board and ark or the Nexus. Elcor, sure, they could use some spotlight. But they seem like they'd belong better after things were established. They're not fighters. I don't know if any are biotics. Volus could be biotics and their penchant for finances could be extremely useful in developing new markets. To me, they make sense being a part of the AI and I'd be damned surprised if they weren't involved in getting it funded. While I personally wouldn't mind a convoluted excuse for another royal egg being found, we wouldn't really have to go that route, even if your Shepard killed the Queen in ME 1. Noveria has detailed information on the Rachni, in fact their whole operation was based around them studying the aliens and potentially using them for weapons of war. Between all that information (things like tissue samples, blood samples, MRI scans, etc.) and the numerous Rachni corpses lying around (even the mostly melted Queen) you have more than enough data and material to clone a duplicate. The Salarians were able to bring back the Kalisaours for Krogan to ride into battle based off a single fossilized skull, bringing back the Rachni Queen would be child's play compared to that. What's more, regardless of Shepard's decision with the Queen the Council, Noveria's head scientists, CEOs at ExoGeni, and basically anyone with access to records from Peak 15 could easily see that the Rachni are in fact a sentient, and highly intelligent species. Couple that knowledge with the reports of even "mindless" Rachni drones and soldiers establishing proto-colonies in vastly different environmental and atmospheric conditions without the aid of space suits, and engaging in hit and run attacks using only teeth and claws against a society armed with modern day weapons and armor and it's not unreasonable to think that someone involved with the Andromeda Initiative could see the use for such a species, and request for a royal egg to be cloned and put on ice should the colonists need it. As for the Elcor, they are the only species I'm aware of that can carry tank cannons on their backs into battle. Get a squad of Elcor soldiers and you can potentially have more firepower than the entire Pathfinder team (for every major species) perfect for defending a colony from attack. Elcor also evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of any other known species in the Milky Way, including the resident "warrior race" of the Krogan; their bone and muscle structure is so powerful simply as a necessity of survival that one could easily snap a person in half should it ever come down to melee combat. Garrus even alludes to this in ME 1 when he mentions an Elcor serial killer he tracked down on the Citadel during his C-Sec days, who literally ripped his victims into small chunks with his bare hands in order to kill them and then hide the bodies.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 2, 2017 16:26:54 GMT
The AI stuff has been thick on propaganda and shadiness since day 1, it's one of the reasons why I think is their best promotion for the game. Agreed, but think of the disappointment if the AI is in fact exactly what it seems. It wouldn't just be disappointing, it would be effing stupid. But sadly, I suspect it's exactly what it says on the tin.
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 2, 2017 16:29:51 GMT
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Hm.... I wonder if the Nexus uprising was Cerberus operatives' coup attempt?
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 2, 2017 16:44:13 GMT
I have conflicting feelings about Cerberus in Andromeda.
On the one hand, they had an outsized role in ME3 -- where a fringe human group basically rivaled the rest of the galaxy in resources if not firepower. I personally was never comfortable with them being in charge in ME2, either.
However, precisely because Cerberus was made to be such a huge powerful organization, it would be odd if they had NOTHING to do with Andromeda.
It'd be like, OK, so ANOTHER immensely powerful human group? (though of course at least here other races could be involved)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 16:49:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 16:55:06 GMT
What if MEA takes another paramilitary organization, and elevates it to the absurdly powerful status of Cerberus in ME3? It turns out the AI was a covert operation by the BLUE SUNS all along.
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Post by Lunatic on Feb 2, 2017 17:03:52 GMT
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Hm.... I wonder if the Nexus uprising was Cerberus operatives' coup attempt?
What do we know about this Nexus uprising so far?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 17:04:51 GMT
What if MEA takes another paramilitary organization, and elevates it to the absurdly powerful status of Cerberus in ME3? It turns out the AI was a covert operation by the BLUE SUNS all along. Only if Zaeed took the helm... Put those goddamn people to work. Huh... Maybe not.. he would be the only one to arrive in Andromeda alive.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 2, 2017 17:07:16 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Hm.... I wonder if the Nexus uprising was Cerberus operatives' coup attempt?
What do we know about this Nexus uprising so far? Nothing. Even the book abut it doesn't have a blurb on Amazon yet.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 2, 2017 17:09:40 GMT
You say that like it's a bad thing. What exactly would you want with the Reapers when their arc has been told? What would you want with Cerberus when we know how TIM, it's front-man and idealist, ends? That's the point of lore and characters in storytelling. It's wrapped up in arcs that have beginnings middles and ends and for Cerberus and Reapers specifically we know that part. It's okay to create more Cerberus in Andromeda but I would argue it doesn't ultimately do much for the prominent themes of Andromeda that thus far seem to be about colonization, heroism and aliens. Anything you add to Cerberus lore in Andromeda is going to be prequel-material and we all know the problems with prequels: We have the story spoiled before it begins and that makes it wholly unexciting unless it adds new layers we didn't know existed, but with TIM's fate I don't really know what that would be save perhaps add Cora Harper as an emotional component to his motivation we didn't know existed before. To above, I slightly disagree about the definition of Sci-fi. I agree, it doesn't mean every single thing should be scientifically accurate but i always read the term as " science-fiction." It's fiction based on science, and therefore most sci-fi novels you can read include expositrory paragraphs about real scientific facts or phenomenon to back up the fiction. It's not an excuse to back up the fiction with fantasy becuase then you get science-fantasy. Notice how fantasy and science are the variables and fiction is the constant as well as their placement in the term. I'd argue that's an indicator that my definition is the proper one. Lazarus project is a sci-fi element because it deals with ideas about tech-implants and cloning and futuristic technology but it does border on fantasy because it exists within the Mass Effect framework where a lot of other things humanmade are usually explained in detail. Prothean artifacts and age-old alien tech is usually vague but I think Cerberus's experiments in ME2 are the first points where the fiction breaks its genre ever so slightly becuase the Lazarus project and their contrived resources is the first human-made element that has no clear explanation, which doesn't make use of any other established lore available. But that's implying that this Cerberus would even be a part of the old Cerberus, which it physically cannot be. This wouldn't be a filler arc to an already finished story. It's effectively a brand new arc in a brand new story. It would be completely different people with completely different goals and personalities. I am not asking for Reapers and TIM and the like to come back. I'm simply saying that Cerberus is far too established into the lore of Mass Effect to not have somehow become a part of the Andromeda Initiative. They don't even have to be the same Cerberus, considering the fact that it's under new management with far less resources, but to say that they should have nothing to do with MEA is to blatantly disregard them from the lore, and that's not what should happen. See, this is what I disagree with. Cerberus has far outplayed its role IMO even in ME3. They were interesting but ultimately taken too far with the whole clone army of theirs and if you think about it, everything they did after ME1 was super contrived in terms of plausibility. We can't say it doesn't make sense because there's no direct contradiction other than I think Lazarus stretches what a science-fiction of this calibre is, but really they always just do really big things with that seem logistically implausible, and it's all contrived. I only liked Cerberus because of TIM who I thought was interesting. Without him I don't think there was ever much to the organization, so I don't get why we need a rebranded Cerberus in Andromeda.
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Post by armass81 on Feb 2, 2017 17:12:47 GMT
Didn't Bioware say that Cerberus has nothing to do with the AI? Bioware says a lot of things like Pre ME2 "no the Archangel is not Garrus" Pre ME3 "its not like the endings are a simple A, B or C choice."
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Post by armass81 on Feb 2, 2017 17:17:46 GMT
I have conflicting feelings about Cerberus in Andromeda. On the one hand, they had an outsized role in ME3 -- where a fringe human group basically rivaled the rest of the galaxy in resources if not firepower. I personally was never comfortable with them being in charge in ME2, either. However, precisely because Cerberus was made to be such a huge powerful organization, it would be odd if they had NOTHING to do with Andromeda. It'd be like, OK, so ANOTHER immensely powerful human group? (though of course at least here other races could be involved) Well they werent really that powerful, only the game made them kinda incorrectly seem that way, cause where ever you went there seemed to be Cerberus. You have to take this in context tought, theres so little we actually see of the galaxy in the game. They did take Omega, but that was pretty much just a big station filled with mercs, fringe society elements and criminals, any alien governnment could have easily taken over Omega with a single fleet. Lets not forget the systems alliance forces pretty much mopped them up single handedly once their hq was discovered in the Horsehead Nebula. Their infulence in the series became so huge because of a single lead writer who wanted to expand their role, maybe to ridiculous heights, and pretty much became a writers pet project. Thanks Mac.
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 2, 2017 17:30:41 GMT
I have conflicting feelings about Cerberus in Andromeda. On the one hand, they had an outsized role in ME3 -- where a fringe human group basically rivaled the rest of the galaxy in resources if not firepower. I personally was never comfortable with them being in charge in ME2, either. However, precisely because Cerberus was made to be such a huge powerful organization, it would be odd if they had NOTHING to do with Andromeda. It'd be like, OK, so ANOTHER immensely powerful human group? (though of course at least here other races could be involved) Well they werent really that powerful, only the game made them kinda incorrectly seem that way, cause where ever you went there seemed to be Cerberus. They did take Omega, but that was pretty much just a big station filled with mercs, fringe society elements and criminals, any alien governnment could have easily taken over Omega with a single fleet. Their infulence in the series became so huge because of a single lead writer who wanted to expand their role, maybe to ridiculous heights, and pretty much became a writers pet project. Thanks Mac. It's more that they are doing all these things, like staging a Citadel coup -- as an aside: why did they invade a shopping mall to shoot down civilians? -- and at no point does the Council or anyone else seek retribution. Not even after Thessia! The only way I could interpret this is that Cerberus had such resources that they not only knew all the best kept secrets of all the most powerful groups in the galaxy, but they were able to hide themselves perfectly from these same groups. At one point Anderson says, slightly paraphrased, "Watch out for Kai Leng, Shepard. The Reapers may seem like the biggest threat, but I'm telling you, you better watch out for that guy!" Yeah, "Leader of the Resistance" Anderson is telling you that some high ranking guy in Cerberus is potentially more dangerous than 2 km long eldritch space monsters with lasers. Sure it makes no sense, but ME3 goes out of its way to convince the player that Cerberus really is that powerful.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 2, 2017 17:35:51 GMT
Cerberus would be fine just as long as they didn't overshadow everything else. A simple "We worked for Cerberus but now that we know that things are horrible, we're gonna work to make sure everyone survives instead of putting humans on top!" reference or a sidequest or two dealing with putting down a Cerberus upstart cell would be more than enough. I could see a problem if there were several core story missions dedicated to them, but a few sidequests tops that could be knocked out in an hour and a half would be no big deal, IMO. We have to remember, that at the time AI left, Cerberus wasn't yet recognized as evil as we know it from ME3. At the time of AI departure, Cerberus was perceived more as a shadowy/secret group with plain intent to act in favor of humanity and humanity alone. So, if we do get people who stem from Cerberus in Andromeda, we need to be prepared to hear lots of "explaining" from them on how Cerberus wasn't that bad yadda yadda... I know... it will be tiresome for hardcore ME fans, but for Ryder twins this will be something new. Unless of course, their father/mother turns out to be from Cerberus all along or it turns out that even Ryder twins also knew a lot about Cerberus themselfs (althrough, not the real deal, but just info from propaganda BS). Cerberus or Cerberus cells were well known and public acts of terrorism well before Mass 1, let alone 3. Not to mention all of the stuff we as players encountered in ME1; anyone with significant standing in the Alliance or an Alliance financial backer would more than likely be privy to the stuff they pulled off. Chances are, someone would know of Cerberus and know that they're bad, especially the rich people and the two children of a special forces officer.
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Post by armass81 on Feb 2, 2017 17:36:17 GMT
Well they werent really that powerful, only the game made them kinda incorrectly seem that way, cause where ever you went there seemed to be Cerberus. They did take Omega, but that was pretty much just a big station filled with mercs, fringe society elements and criminals, any alien governnment could have easily taken over Omega with a single fleet. Their infulence in the series became so huge because of a single lead writer who wanted to expand their role, maybe to ridiculous heights, and pretty much became a writers pet project. Thanks Mac. It's more that they are doing all these things, like staging a Citadel coup -- as an aside: why did they invade a shopping mall to shoot down civilians? -- and at no point does the Council or anyone else seek retribution. Not even after Thessia! The only way I could interpret this is that Cerberus had such resources that they not only knew all the best kept secrets of all the most powerful groups in the galaxy, but they were able to hide themselves perfectly from these same groups. At one point Anderson says, slightly paraphrased, "Watch out for Kai Leng, Shepard. The Reapers may seem like the biggest threat, but I'm telling you, you better watch out for that guy!" Yeah, "Leader of the Resistance" Anderson is telling you that some high ranking guy in Cerberus is potentially more dangerous than 2 km long eldritch space monsters with lasers. Sure it makes no sense, but ME3 goes out of its way to convince the player that Cerberus really is that powerful. Yeah cause we needed a human sized enemy to fight in 3rd person shooter. Lets face it, how are you gonna face a reaper, or Harbinger with just 3 soldiers? it be like if 3 ants came to me and said "yeah you better prepare, cause were gonna kill you now". Only thing that can fight reapers is a fleet of ships(or a giant tresher maw), even Normandy is just 1 frigate. Cerberus provided that, problem is they provided too much of it, and pretty much overshadowed the reaper forces. There could have been a balance, but they broke it. Other problem: The real enemy is just too huge, too powerful to fight this way. And thats part of a problem with the ME, they made the reapers impossible to face, one on one. Unless of course they provided us with some inidividual BS anime superpowers, and broke the entire lore, whats left of it. Even now im wondering how, realistically were gonna face the so called "andromedan superbosses", like that certain mechanical serpent in the trailer, and how were actually going to win against it?
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Post by Phantom on Feb 2, 2017 17:38:18 GMT
Please no more Cerberus. I wouldn't object to a shady side to the Initiative at all, but don't link that to these posers. I've heard enough about them for a lifetime. that is why we need cerberus.
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Post by leonick on Feb 2, 2017 19:32:45 GMT
Yeah cause we needed a human sized enemy to fight in 3rd person shooter. Lets face it, how are you gonna face a reaper, or Harbinger with just 3 soldiers? it be like if 3 ants came to me and said "yeah you better prepare, cause were gonna kill you now". Only thing that can fight reapers is a fleet of ships(or a giant tresher maw), even Normandy is just 1 frigate. Cerberus provided that, problem is they provided too much of it, and pretty much overshadowed the reaper forces. There could have been a balance, but they broke it. Other problem: The real enemy is just too huge, too powerful to fight this way. And thats part of a problem with the ME, they made the reapers impossible to face, one on one. Unless of course they provided us with some inidividual BS anime superpowers, and broke the entire lore, whats left of it. Even now im wondering how, realistically were gonna face the so called "andromedan superbosses", like that certain mechanical serpent in the trailer, and how were actually going to win against it? Obviously fighting full size reapers is tricky and we can hardly fight a destroyer every mission, but the reapers did have ground forces yet we spend as much time if not more time Cerberus forces. If they needed more enemy variety they could have added more converted reaper forces or even some smaller reapers, as in smaller mechanical reaper forces, sized like Geth primes or armatures maybe. As for not being all that powerful, invading the citadel with a force that size is no small feat. One thing if it was Kai Leng and a strike team or two but no, it's a couple of platoons worth of soldiers. Quite a sizeable fleet at Grissom academy too and let's not forget the army chasing you at the end of the ex-Cerberus scientists mission. As if that isn't bad enough they somehow have a fleet of cruisers and many large space stations and planetary installations all over the place, all kept secret from all the major powers (which I could possibly buy if we used warp drives, but not so easy when travel has to go through Mass Relays). How does a rogue black ops division get the resources to rival the military force that spawned it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 19:38:53 GMT
Truthfully, "fighting" the Reapers shouldn't have been what the devs were focusing on.
You don't "fight" cosmic horror. You don't explain them either, but I'm getting tired of saying my piece on that... Regardless, Bioware should've thought outside the box when it came to resolving the Reaper issue. Or had it be unresolved. Clearly they wanted to go for a bittersweet ending, and what would've been more bittersweet than fighting for what you believe in with all of your comrades at your side, a completely united galaxy for the first and only time? As long as it ended with some sort of message of hope, I believe a "failure" ending would've been a great way to end the OT. Granted, we kinda got that ending as an option, but it was more of a slap to the face to anyone that hated the terrible Catalyst than an actually moving and legitimate ending. It was clearly added out of spite, rather than being drawn out from a place of creativity and passion.
Anyway, not directly related to what you guys are talking about, but I thought it was at least vaguely worth talking about. The Reapers were ruined in ME3, which is an absolute shame, because they are arguably the coolest fucking part of the whole series. Cosmic horror is my jam.
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Post by armass81 on Feb 2, 2017 23:44:52 GMT
One rule of making a cosmic horror is not making them machines an d then have them claim "we have no beginning and no end", cause machines are always made by someone. I think the reapers creators would have made better villains than the reapers themselves. The whole reaper origin can be summed up into 3 words after all: Cthulhu Created SKYNET.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 2, 2017 23:51:35 GMT
One rule of making a cosmic horror is not making them machines an d then have them claim "we have no beginning and no end", cause machines are always made by someone. I think the reapers creators would have made better villains than the reapers themselves. The whole reaper origin can be summed up into 3 words after all: Cthulhu Created SKYNET. Really though if they didn't botch the MWG as a setting so badly I could have easily seen the Leviathan's becoming the next game's badguy.
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Post by prejekpaddlefish on Feb 3, 2017 0:38:56 GMT
Nice video. Interesting thoughts! WRT Cerberus, wasn't TIM's goal to become an omnipotent ruler over the Reapers, similar to the Control ending? In which case, why wouldn't he throw resources into the AI, hoping to see the rewards found from the strange centre of the Andromeda Helius cluster, 1200 years later? (Changed my mind.) TIM wouldn't invest in the AI, he would steal the plans and build a Cerberus Ark. In that case, he'd wait until he had Reaper FTL travel so he could get there before the AI and bring the Remnant Tech or whatnot back. But we all know he dies, so no, no Cerberus!
With respect to Cora, if she is his daughter, then maybe she found out about the Reapers through TIM, the AI through TIM, and maybe she decided it would be the best way to get away from TIM (Cerberus, and the Reapers)? Who knows her motive. Even if TIM paid for some of the AI, or Cora is the daughter of TIM, that doesn't mean any of the plot needs to involve Cerberus at all. My personal feeling is that it would be a neat back story to relate to Cora quickly, behind the screen. But I really hope none of the story in the game involves Cerberus in any way.
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1,222
dropzofcrimzon
1,391
November 2016
dropzofcrimzon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
DropzOfCrimzon
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 3, 2017 1:04:16 GMT
I can see it now...at some point ryder will investigate this and ask WHY we really came here to Andromeda and he will be answered "because the milky way was doomed"....cue explanation about the fact a few enlightened people KNEW and funded the initiative to let the race of the milky way survive in Andromeda.
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1033
0
Nov 26, 2024 12:01:18 GMT
36,903
colfoley
19,127
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 1:08:10 GMT
I can see it now...at some point ryder will investigate this and ask WHY we really came here to Andromeda and he will be answered "because the milky way was doomed"....cue explanation about the fact a few enlightened people KNEW and funded the initiative to let the race of the milky way survive in Andromeda. I can see it.
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inherit
2137
0
Dec 18, 2021 22:02:27 GMT
1,222
dropzofcrimzon
1,391
November 2016
dropzofcrimzon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
DropzOfCrimzon
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 3, 2017 1:17:21 GMT
I can see it now...at some point ryder will investigate this and ask WHY we really came here to Andromeda and he will be answered "because the milky way was doomed"....cue explanation about the fact a few enlightened people KNEW and funded the initiative to let the race of the milky way survive in Andromeda. I can see it. Followed by the fact Shepard never woke up in the Cerberus base in ME2 and in ME2 and 3 we play as a clone, the real Shepard was sent with the initiative, frozen and Bioware is REALLY sorry for screwing up... Ok a man can dream no?
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