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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 13, 2017 16:56:17 GMT
So shouldn't the races of other galaxies be so far ahead of us as to be prothean +? Why hasn't synthetic life of these other galaxies come to kill the Milky Way 200 cycles ago? This just makes the catalyst even more illogical doesn't it?
There seem to be flaws in what the Catalyst says. Maybe organics in Andromeda have simply been successful at keeping synthetics from taking over. If Protheans and Leviathans could deal with them, why not others? Why the spoilers? Aren't we officially spoiler-ok by now? Anyway: The issue is (again) that the ME writers do not care a whit about consistency in their lore, unfortunately. At the time of ME3 (in 2012) the catalyst's disregard for other galaxies was not really a problem since the lore at that point implied that there was no technology to cross the dark space between galaxies. Not sure how much you guys read the codex but just in case, there it tells you that Mass Effect drives build up charge in the engine's core over time. If that EM charge is not discharged regularly, static discharges into the hull fo the ship would cook the crew alive and eventually destroy the ship itself. Therefore, all ships in the ME universe (reapers included) need to discharge their drives regularly within large magnetic fields (ideally a gas giant but smaller planets with a magnetic field work in a pinch as well). In ME1, this made long distance FTL travel dangerous or even impossible, especially in uncharted territory, where you might no necessarily know if you'll find a discharge point in time. This is why for example Ilos and the Conduit were not discovered earlier, because the Mu Relay was lost and no one could find a conventional FTL route there. It's also why the galaxy is colonized in clusters around the mass relays and 99% of it remain unexplored. So in ME1, Mass Relays were pretty much mandatory for long distance travel. In ME2/3, this was already weakened somewhat, as it is implied a couple of times that mass relays are now more of a convenience (albeit a big one) where travel times take mere hours instead of weeks but FTL travel would in principle be possible within the milky way. For example, people were surprised when in the Arrival DLC, the reapers could just fly into the milky way from dark space. This kinda rendered Sovereign's mission in ME1 much less important. During ME1, it is assumed that the reapers were really stuck in dark space and could only get out via the Citadel relay (as they would be too far within dark space to get to the MW without drive discharge). In ME2 one prominent fan theory was that they built the Human Reaper, to take up Sovereign's mission. It was only in Arrival when we found out they could just fly in conventionally anyway. But ok, maybe they just were not hibernating as far out in dark space as we first thought (which kinda makes sense from the reaper's perspective, just relying on the Citadel relay would have been a huge risk). So even in ME3, travel between galaxies was impossible, due to the the vastness of dark space and the impossibility to discharge one's FTL drive. Without relays, you culd only venture into dark space for half the distance of your maximum charge. However, now, with the new lore for Andromeda,we have the ODSY drive system, which basically allows unlimited FTL travel and thus, we can traverse between galaxies. Even worse, this technology already exists in 2185, so Shepard should have known about it by the time s/he confronts the catalyst. This makes the question of what happens in other galaxies that don't have the reapers immediately he most relevant question to ask the catalyst ever. Obviously we cannot fault the ME3 writers for not including something that wasn't part of the lore at the time but this example goes to show very well the problem I have with this series. It's that the writers do not seem to see their universe as a whole interconnected space-time-continuum but rather as a bunch of cool stories, that get added techno babble whenever they need it. This issue happened over and over again in multiple aspects of the Mass Effect lore and it is IMO the one biggest flaw in an otherwise superb peace of interactive storytelling.
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Post by dragontartare on Mar 13, 2017 18:54:41 GMT
There seem to be flaws in what the Catalyst says. Maybe organics in Andromeda have simply been successful at keeping synthetics from taking over. If Protheans and Leviathans could deal with them, why not others? Why the spoilers? Aren't we officially spoiler-ok by now? Anyway: The issue is (again) that the ME writers do not care a whit about consistency in their lore, unfortunately. At the time of ME3 (in 2012) the catalyst's disregard for other galaxies was not really a problem since the lore at that point implied that there was no technology to cross galaxies. Not sure how much you read the codex but there it tells you that Mass Effect drives build up charge in the engine's core over time. If that EM charge is not discharged regularly, static discharges into the hull fo the ship would cook the crew alive. Therefore, all ships in the ME universe (reapers included) need to discharge their drives regularly within large magnetic fields (ideally a gas giant but smaller planets with a magnetic field work in a pinch as well). In ME1, this made long distance FTL travel dangerous or even impossible, especially in uncharted territory, where you might no necessarily know if you'll find a discharge point in time. This is why for example Ilos and the Conduit were not discovered earlier, because the Mu Relay was lost and no one could find a conventional FTL route there. It's also why the galaxy is colonized in clusters around the mass relays and 99% of it remain unexplored. So in ME1, Mass Relays were pretty much mandatory for long distance travel. In ME2/3, this was already weakened somewhat, as it is implied a couple of times that mass relays are now more of a convenience (albeit a big one) where travel times take mere hours instead of weeks but FTL travel would in principle be possible within the milky way. For example, people were surprised when in the Arrival DLC, the reapers could just fly into the milky way from dark space. This kinda rendered Sovereign's mission in ME1 much less important. During ME1, it is assumed that the reapers were really stuck in dark space and could only get out via the Citadel relay (as they would be too far within dark space to get to the MW without drive discharge). In ME2 one prominent fan theory was that they built the Human Reaper, to take up Sovereign's mission. It was only in Arrival when we found out they could just fly in conventionally anyway. But ok, maybe they just were not hibernating as far out in dark space as we first thought (which kinda makes sense from the reaper's perspective, just relying on the Citadel relay would have been a huge risk). So even in ME3, travel between galaxies was impossible, due to the the vastness of dark space and the impossibility to discharge one's FTL drive. Without relays, you culd only venture into dark space for half the distance of your maximum charge. However, now, with the new lore for Andromeda,we have the ODSY drive system, which basically allows unlimited FTL travel and thus, we can traverse between galaxies. Even worse, this technology already exists in 2185, so Shepard should have known about it by the time s/he confronts the catalyst. This makes the question of what happens in other galaxies that don't have the reapers immediately he most relevant question to ask the catalyst ever. Obviously we cannot fault the ME3 writers for not including something that wasn't part of the lore at the time but this example goes to show very well the problem I have with this series. It's that the writers do not seem to see their universe as a whole interconnected space-time-continuum but rather as a bunch of cool stories, that get added techno babble whenever they need it. This issue happened over and over again in multiple aspects of the Mass Effect lore and it is IMO the one biggest flaw in an otherwise superb peace of interactive storytelling. The spoilers are for those on Andromeda blackout. I agree with your reasoning, though. Was going to say something similar.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 13, 2017 19:30:09 GMT
The spoilers are for those on Andromeda blackout. Oh I see, that makes sense! And it's good to know, too since I am on kind of a blackout as well (only watched those Andromeda Initiative briefings on their website). Well, for all those guys, there are no big Andromeda spoilers there, other than a tiny little tech bit about how they got to, you know, Andromeda.
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Post by phoray on Mar 14, 2017 4:14:26 GMT
The spoilers are for those on Andromeda blackout. Oh I see, that makes sense! And it's good to know, too since I am on kind of a blackout as well (only watched those Andromeda Initiative briefings on their website). Well, for all those guys, there are no big Andromeda spoilers there, other than a tiny little tech bit about how they got to, you know, Andromeda. Yes ^^ I was aware of melbella specifically being on an adromeda blackout, and since I knew she was reading this thread, I was making sure to maintain it. I'm kinda haunted by the whole Thane/Control thing. Or maybe just by depressive story telling. I'm wondering if actually playing through "perfectly", with a Thanemod in ME3, would shake me of the sadness, similar to how dragontartare 's replaying to fix some of her mistakes.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2017 4:25:40 GMT
I'm curious about the the data concerning how fast the Reapers themselves could travel. To me, it seemed like they were faster than normal. I thought that Sovereign could move around Council/near-Council space quicker than your average ship. Also, I fail to be shocked a minimum of a billion years (plus whatever length of time the Leviathan existed prior - which seems to be longer than the current cycle prior to leaving for Andromeda) found away around the discharge issue.
And maybe I saw things differently, but weren't the Reapers coming from dark space through some kind of special alpha relay? Admittedly, it still takes away from the point of Sovereign but maybe there are other relays in dark space the Reapers cluster around and they had to spend time (months or years) moving to the most useful relay. I saw the Reapers as wanting to hit the central hub of government and put them entirely in disarray. That failed because the relay to the Citadel was closed off to them. The alpha relay was a substitute that could be used but wasn't as effective. The primary reason for it not being as effective was because the races of the current cycle had a warning which had never before been had in like a billion years worth of harvesting. The Reapers always just rolled in with no warning and it was largely over before it even started. No central government meant no defense. Despite the idiocy of the Council, there still were people preparing (like Cerberus). However, I'm off-topic now.
Anyway, I think if we can't get around the need for relays then we fail to go actually grow. Maybe I'm just filling in gaps BioWare left but it seems workable to me.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2017 4:29:53 GMT
I'm kinda haunted by the whole Thane/Control thing. Or maybe just by depressive story telling. I'm wondering if actually playing through "perfectly", with a Thanemod in ME3, would shake me of the sadness, similar to how dragontartare 's replaying to fix some of her mistakes. I think the is why dragontartare suggested you played the most depressing romance. It's why I choose someone who can survive and choose an ending in which my Shepard can survive. Then I can (and do) read the tons of fanfic out there with their post-war adventures.
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Post by melbella on Mar 14, 2017 4:31:31 GMT
Yes ^^ I was aware of melbella specifically being on an adromeda blackout, and since I knew she was reading this thread, I was making sure to maintain it. I'm kinda haunted by the whole Thane/Control thing. Or maybe just by depressive story telling. I'm wondering if actually playing through "perfectly", with a Thanemod in ME3, would shake me of the sadness, similar to how dragontartare 's replaying to fix some of her mistakes. Appreciate it! Though seeing a bunch of posts in a row that I shouldn't read is kind of a bummer.
You can always install the mod, reimport your ME2 (or ME3) Shepard and see if it changes the tone for you. Not sure how much info you want about it beforehand? The quick version is, it removes Thane from the coup entirely. There are a lot of other changes/additions, but that's the gist of it: Lt. Bastard doesn't kill him. When I played with it, it was in conjunction with the MEHEM ending mod so I really liked how things turned out in that scenario.
Now I'm too lazy to re-install the mods so I just pretty much headcanon that's what happens.
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Post by phoray on Mar 14, 2017 4:52:30 GMT
I've opened several threads and still haven't found the right one to answer my concern. You guys are probably tired of talking about the endings.
I feel like the Destroy ending means you have little faith in organics and synthetics coming to a peace you may have actually already witnessed as Shepherd between the Quarians and the Geth. The fact that my Shepard supported the Geth's first real chance of life without the interference of others trying to destroy them further reinforced that she valued the synthetics as equal to the organics. In a way, I gave the quarians their own chance to overcome their guilt in the matter and turn things around; they took that chance and hung themselves with it. She also encouraged the relationship between Joker and EDI.
I feel like Destroy just goes against her/our beliefs in the goodness of life. I have hard time imagining the "happy ending" with Thane that can be achieved with the Thane mod plus MEHEM mod for the Shepherd I played. And when talking abotu Destroy comes up, folks mention that it was about not taking any chances. @_@ but Shepherd took so many chances throughout the series. I can't even imagine recruiting half the folks we did, or not immediately blowing up the Normandy to destroy the unshackled AI, or...
Maybe playing one character through two games made me too attached to the way it played out.
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Post by phoray on Mar 14, 2017 5:06:38 GMT
dragontartareI got onto Garrus for going renegade and killing people to make the world a better place. Then I just realized that that is what Thane was doing when we met him. I guess it was just their approach and philosophy about it that made me like it in Thane and find it a negative in Garrus. Thane put only himself at risk and accepted he might die trying. Whereas Garrus seemed frustrated, angry, there was fall out when he made it a team and the team died, and I don't think he was accepting of an potential of his own death. Regardless, I still feel I owe you an apology.
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Post by dragontartare on Mar 14, 2017 5:11:24 GMT
I've opened several threads and still haven't found the right one to answer my concern. You guys are probably tired of talking about the endings. I feel like the Destroy ending means you have little faith in organics and synthetics coming to a peace you may have actually already witnessed as Shepherd between the Quarians and the Geth. The fact that my Shepard supported the Geth's first real chance of life without the interference of others trying to destroy them further reinforced that she valued the synthetics as equal to the organics. In a way, I gave the quarians their own chance to overcome their guilt in the matter and turn things around; they took that chance and hung themselves with it. She also encouraged the relationship between Joker and EDI. I feel like Destroy just goes against her/our beliefs in the goodness of life. I have hard time imagining the "happy ending" with Thane that can be achieved with the Thane mod plus MEHEM mod for the Shepherd I played. And when talking abotu Destroy comes up, folks mention that it was about not taking any chances. @_@ but Shepherd took so many chances throughout the series. I can't even imagine recruiting half the folks we did, or not immediately blowing up the Normandy to destroy the unshackled AI, or... Maybe playing one character through two games made me too attached to the way it played out. I disagree completely. I think the destroy ending is the one that shows Shepard has faith that organics and synthetics can live peacefully, side by side. Creepy ghost boy tells Shepard that if the destroy option is chosen, the way is left open for synthetics to rise again the way the reapers did, so the cycles (or conflict) could one day begin again if lessons weren't learned. My Shepard has hope that lessons have been learned, and since organics and AI did learn to cooperate, they could do so again. The reapers specifically had to be destroyed, though. It is not a 100% happy ending since it involves the deaths of EDI and the geth, but it at least leaves the possibility of organics and synthetics working together again. (Plus, I imagine EDI made plenty of backups of herself, and I'm sure some guilt-ridden quarians will try to re-create the geth. Which maybe leaves open the possibility that some super-villain will try to get the reapers working again, but since it took the leviathan civilization to create them in the first place, I'm optimistic that no super-villain could manage it on his own.) My Shepard didn't think she had any right to choose synthesize since it would alter every organic and synthetic life form in the galaxy with unknown results. Maybe it would stop the cycle, or maybe...maybe what the reapers were doing was synthesizing, merging themselves with the organics they harvested, making that option a trick by creepy ghost boy. (I know that isn't it, but Shepard didn't know that.) In any case, if organics and synthetics are merged -- against the will of every individual, potentially -- then they aren't really coexisting peacefully, are they? They've just...become one. And as for control, who's to say that Shepard (or the Shepard AI) won't eventually come to think like the reapers that she/it took control of? And if the reapers are being controlled by the personality of an organic, are they really coexisting peacefully with organics? I would argue no, since they would no longer be thinking for themselves.
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Post by dragontartare on Mar 14, 2017 5:24:31 GMT
dragontartare I got onto Garrus for going renegade and killing people to make the world a better place. Then I just realized that that is what Thane was doing when we met him. I guess it was just their approach and philosophy about it that made me like it in Thane and find it a negative in Garrus. Thane put only himself at risk and accepted he might die trying. Whereas Garrus seemed frustrated, angry, there was fall out when he made it a team and the team died, and I don't think he was accepting of an potential of his own death. Regardless, I still feel I owe you an apology. Yeah, I didn't want to belabor it at the time, but "killing people" is what a number of BW companions are doing when we first meet them I think Garrus just doesn't dwell on the fact that he could die in ME2, but it does come up in 3 a few times. In 2, he is beating himself up over the betrayal that lead to his team's death. Yes, he put his team at risk by going after criminals, but he didn't force them to join. They knew what they were getting into, and they believed in his cause to make Omega safer. Shepard puts her(his) team at risk on every mission. So does the warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor. Most of the time, those team mates don't die (because there's a reload button, and plot armor) but sometimes they do...and when that happens, it wasn't because the protagonist didn't accept that the team might not make it. Sometimes, the enemy is just better prepared or better equipped than you are, or they have information you don't, and that's what happened to Garrus' team. Garrus wasn't doing anything crazier than our very own protagonists do.
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Post by phoray on Mar 14, 2017 6:01:15 GMT
I can't handle it. I'm going to make a liar out of myself and play ME again and get Thane ASAP and buy more DLC just to hang out with him longer. and get the two mods, and have a happy ending. And finally put my grief to rest. The only decision now I guess it whether I'll suffer through ME1 and date Kaidan and cheat on him for a lizard who believes in me. Or just go with my last approach of importing someone else's save. Otherwise, I guess I should be hanging out in the "What did you do in ME today?" thread. Thanks again to everyone who helped my blind play through.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Mar 14, 2017 6:27:58 GMT
It was an interesting ride. :amirite: You could always do a New Game+ starting from 2 or 3, if that would be easier. No point in starting with Kaidan if you're gonna do Thane anyway. And of course the Thane thread is always ready for more love.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 14, 2017 13:09:29 GMT
I imagine a post-Destroy galaxy to be as such: -AI research is more regulated, but more accepted as inevitable -Reapers are 'dead', perhaps more dead than anything the Derelict Reaper was, but the hardware and materials still exist -Leviathans still exist, Quarians may still exist, AI researchers have more data than ever before, and Reaper data or at least similar data exists -Geth are 'dead', but the hardware still exists out in the galaxy, and the likely knowhow of the Quarians -EDI is 'dead', but the hardware still exists and there could be the will to rebuild her
With the destruction of anything that may be considered 'synthetic life' by parameters (Reapers with their code, Geth with acquired Reaper-Legion upgrades, EDI with Reaper code basis), it at least means that anything that was there, is 'killed'. And its not explicitly shown, but I wouldn't be surprised if this included most to all Cerberus troops too.
One could fanfic a lot, like a story of Joker using whatever rewards he got from the war to fund redoing code of EDI to make a new one that may learn from the history of the old one. He wouldn't necessarily do it for romance, but at least sentimentality.
Its quite possible that any great synthetic presence may happen in years or decades, not centuries, millennia, or beyond. So we have to hope that the galaxy is ready for it. On one hand, we have the supposed pattern of failure and the old friendly EDI, Geth, and perhaps better-intentioned (really) Reapers are gone. On the other, we may have a galaxy better prepared to handle the fact of AI and for all we know, a new EDI, Geth, 'Reapers' (remember its a label), or whatever, could be more friendly than any of the endings (Controlled Old Machines, Merged Galaxy).
But we can't KNOW.
What we do know, is that the Reaper war is over. In the most definitive way. But we can't know whether something better or worse will result in time.
And honestly given the likely antagonistic stance (no matter how friendly it presents itself) of the Catalyst, I'm willing to bet that the result of Destroy (at least or especially if High EMS or if building a pro-AI position) is more positive than it asserts, Control is about as good or bad as it presents, and Synthesis is better than it presents. Not that it lies, but it omits, and focuses on trying to address what it thinks it is supposed to address.
Destroy will likely do fine. But it is probably more fanfic level if you assert that exact Reapers, Geth, EDI are coming back. EDI doesn't have backups, that's part of the point of her.
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Post by dragontartare on Mar 14, 2017 20:45:54 GMT
I imagine a post-Destroy galaxy to be as such: -AI research is more regulated, but more accepted as inevitable -Reapers are 'dead', perhaps more dead than anything the Derelict Reaper was, but the hardware and materials still exist -Leviathans still exist, Quarians may still exist, AI researchers have more data than ever before, and Reaper data or at least similar data exists -Geth are 'dead', but the hardware still exists out in the galaxy, and the likely knowhow of the Quarians -EDI is 'dead', but the hardware still exists and there could be the will to rebuild her With the destruction of anything that may be considered 'synthetic life' by parameters (Reapers with their code, Geth with acquired Reaper-Legion upgrades, EDI with Reaper code basis), it at least means that anything that was there, is 'killed'. And its not explicitly shown, but I wouldn't be surprised if this included most to all Cerberus troops too. One could fanfic a lot, like a story of Joker using whatever rewards he got from the war to fund redoing code of EDI to make a new one that may learn from the history of the old one. He wouldn't necessarily do it for romance, but at least sentimentality. Its quite possible that any great synthetic presence may happen in years or decades, not centuries, millennia, or beyond. So we have to hope that the galaxy is ready for it. On one hand, we have the supposed pattern of failure and the old friendly EDI, Geth, and perhaps better-intentioned (really) Reapers are gone. On the other, we may have a galaxy better prepared to handle the fact of AI and for all we know, a new EDI, Geth, 'Reapers' (remember its a label), or whatever, could be more friendly than any of the endings (Controlled Old Machines, Merged Galaxy). But we can't KNOW. What we do know, is that the Reaper war is over. In the most definitive way. But we can't know whether something better or worse will result in time. And honestly given the likely antagonistic stance (no matter how friendly it presents itself) of the Catalyst, I'm willing to bet that the result of Destroy (at least or especially if High EMS or if building a pro-AI position) is more positive than it asserts, Control is about as good or bad as it presents, and Synthesis is better than it presents. Not that it lies, but it omits, and focuses on trying to address what it thinks it is supposed to address. Destroy will likely do fine. But it is probably more fanfic level if you assert that exact Reapers, Geth, EDI are coming back. EDI doesn't have backups, that's part of the point of her.Why wouldn't EDI have some backups? Even our primitive computers back themselves up. I don't mean a perfect personality backup of her latest "human" self, but backups created before she started to consider herself a lifeform just like the rest of the crew? I don't see why not. I would have a harder time believing that such an advanced computer wouldn't create backups. The parts of her that were reaper-based would need to be rebuilt or redesigned, and then she would need to somewhat re-humanize, probably, but I don't think it's impossible that EDI would again reach the point that she and Joker could fall back in love. Just like people who suffer severe trauma or brain injury...they could come out of it completely changed forever, or they could recover enough of what they were in order to pick up their old lives again. As far as the geth, I didn't say they'd be exactly the same, I just said someone would probably try to recreate them. It wouldn't be exact since they'd be working from memory, or from any stored data they might have, and would probably make changes to their code to help keep the peace...but it wouldn't be the end of synthetic life in the galaxy, was my point.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 14, 2017 21:36:57 GMT
I think there's actually something about EDI being so advanced in such a way that its not a matter of copying data. At best, you'd create an alternate version of a past EDI, but it wouldn't even think the same way of a past EDI. It really would be a different 'person' (if you consider her a person).
Good chance that it'd be close enough to recreate a good relationship with everyone, but its not just like turning back time. Even if it would have memories of possibly crucial times like saving Joker, getting the EVA platform, etc - it would not even interpret them the same way.
Its this level of sophistication that makes Reapers arguably people - even if that argument is one that you could be called a traitor for during the war.
Its not like she is injured. It'd be a different 'EDI'. More like a clone and clones don't have 100% of the aspects of their original nor do they, even if right by your side every day, experience things the same way you do. Any memory of this different EDI, if its even possible to make operational, would be different, and any interaction, will be different as well.
Re-creating EDI could be anything from a fantastic new and evolved love story for Joker, to her actually being the horrific Overlord. We can't know. We couldn't know for sure with the old EDI, but there was always this trend of a burgeoning peaceful AI that had just the right experiences and chose just the right things to be successfully integrated with organics.
Even if there was a really true 'backup copy' of her, and it would otherwise (than the fact of being a copy) be a past-her - the Destroy wave destroyed all Reapered code. If it isn't Reapered code, its not her. At best you get a VI simulation of her.
Its tricky. Bioware could, if they wanted to tackle a post-Destroy for whatever reason, do this. But I'm absolutely sure that it wouldn't be in a way that just 'brings an EDI back'. The point with her, is that this person or program, she/it was a one of a kind (unless you want to go crazy into multiverse theory etc... ahaaa....ahaaha).
Anyway, yeah, its not the end of synthetic life. Catalyst was likely reflecting truth in those words. It had its experience, bias, possible manipulations (or even illusions?), but the idea is probably true enough. There will be synthetics again and there will be chaotic outcomes. They could be good, could be bad, could be safe, could be dangerous - but according to Reaper knowledge, it'll always eventually be extremely harmful for the existence of organic people. We can only hope that this cycle has, if not been broken (as the Reaper cycle appears to be), then at least changed to an extent that there need not be such destruction (of organics in the Milky Way at least).
With so much wreckage and data around, that synthetic future is most likely to be derived from this. So Geth, EDI, Reapers. Not in the exactly same form. Not with the same problems. Maybe not the same names. But something is likely to pop up and we decide its okay to have no confidence about the outcome of that. Because at least the Reapers themselves are gone, and hopefully to their hell.
Extended Cut puts a nice face on things but that's really just the initial days, weeks, months, years after the war. We can't know what things will end up with in the longer term (within a lifetime, beyond a lifetime). And Bioware has either decided to never tell us, or to not tell us for now, or to leave it at least mostly to only hints in the meantime. (Often the writers themselves dont know until its on a major iteration of a full game, so whatever.)
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Post by dragontartare on Mar 14, 2017 23:26:13 GMT
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to be assuming that I think it's guaranteed that they can get EDI back exactly as she was, when in fact I have said that is NOT the case, but only that there is a possibility of getting her back in some form. I think there's actually something about EDI being so advanced in such a way that its not a matter of copying data. Never said it was simply a matter of copying data. I said I found it hard to believe that there would be no backups, which is what you said before. Are you telling me that the SR-2 had an AI running it that had NO way of being recovered if something happened? Unless you are of the belief that she has a "soul" or other such mystical thing, she is still made of electrical circuits. That's exactly what I said, though in different words since I focused on Joker. I did not say, or imply, that it was just like turning back time. Kind of like severe trauma or brain injury in a person? Even ordinary life changes can make people interpret things differently. I said it was possible to get "EDI" back in some form, not that she was guaranteed to be her old self again. No, I still think brain injury is a good analogue. Even brain injury that is not severe enough to turn someone into a vegetable can drastically alter their abilities, personalities, perceptions, etc. Sometimes, this damage can be partially treated, other times it can't. This is analogous to what happened to EDI. Remember that EDI is not 100% reaper tech, she's only part reaper tech, and that part is what was targeted by the destroy pulse. The rest of her should be largely intact. So...which part of her is reaper-based, and how much? Is part of her hardware based on reaper tech? Or part of her software? Without knowing how much of her was destroyed, we can't say that bringing her back would be more like creating a clone, or more like treating brain damage in a person. All I'm saying is that there is a possibility, enough to headcanon something happy. Not sure why you're arguing so vehemently against that. Why is it tricky? I'm not talking about BW doing anything, I'm talking about what is within the realm of possibility for headcanon after the game ends. You say "just brings an EDI back" as if it's a simple matter. Again, I didn't say it was simple. I said specifically that she would need to re-humanize, meaning they could probably "fix" her to the point of being an AI again (this is where the backup comes in, plus replacing whatever parts of her were reaper-based), but they can't put the human side into her. That would need to happen organically and over time, like it did the first time, which is where all the variation will come in. With the new "EDI" knowing all the same people and receiving influence from them, it is possible that she would turn into a person that Joker could fall in love with again, and that she could fall in love with him. Anyway, your last sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Shepard was brought back to life. Is Shepard not one-of-a-kind? The idea that this civilization can fix a human brain after days (weeks?) without oxygen, and be returned to pretty much exactly the same person he or she was before -- but that the same level of technology has absolutely no hope of salvaging just one synthetic life and returning her to at least an AI state -- is absurd to me. It's certainly possible that BW intended exactly this absurdity, but since they've abandoned the Milky Way for at least the next game, I don't care what they intended or what they might hypothetically be able to tackle.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 15, 2017 1:13:32 GMT
I've opened several threads and still haven't found the right one to answer my concern. You guys are probably tired of talking about the endings. I feel like the Destroy ending means you have little faith in organics and synthetics coming to a peace you may have actually already witnessed as Shepherd between the Quarians and the Geth. The fact that my Shepard supported the Geth's first real chance of life without the interference of others trying to destroy them further reinforced that she valued the synthetics as equal to the organics. In a way, I gave the quarians their own chance to overcome their guilt in the matter and turn things around; they took that chance and hung themselves with it. She also encouraged the relationship between Joker and EDI. I feel like Destroy just goes against her/our beliefs in the goodness of life. I have hard time imagining the "happy ending" with Thane that can be achieved with the Thane mod plus MEHEM mod for the Shepherd I played. And when talking abotu Destroy comes up, folks mention that it was about not taking any chances. @_@ but Shepherd took so many chances throughout the series. I can't even imagine recruiting half the folks we did, or not immediately blowing up the Normandy to destroy the unshackled AI, or... Maybe playing one character through two games made me too attached to the way it played out. I choose Destroy because I can't deal with a universe that contains Reapers. To me, they have to go. They can't continue to exist under any circumstances. For all I know, they still continue to indoctrinate simply by existing, even if not enemies. Indoctrination is bad. Reapers are bad. Dead Reapers makes the galaxy a safer place. Can't get much clearer about it than that. It's sad that the geth and EDI are destroyed as a result but that's out of my hands. Headcanon if I had peace with the quarians and geth: the geth (at least some) had downloaded into quarian suits to help restore their immune systems. Given that the suits weren't destroyed I could make an assumption that any geth in the suits also survived. As for EDI, she might be able to be rebuilt. The Catalyst suggests any tech that was destroyed could be rebuilt pretty easily. Second reason, I want my Shepard to live happily ever after with Kaidan. That can only happen with the Destroy ending. If I have MEHEM installed, these are all non-issues. New computer doesn't yet have anything but ME1 on it. Given the slow speed of my internet I'm sure I'll be focused on MEA before I get around to reinstalling ME2 and ME3.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 15, 2017 1:48:45 GMT
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to be assuming that I think it's guaranteed that they can get EDI back exactly as she was, when in fact I have said that is NOT the case, but only that there is a possibility of getting her back in some form. I think there's actually something about EDI being so advanced in such a way that its not a matter of copying data. Never said it was simply a matter of copying data. I said I found it hard to believe that there would be no backups, which is what you said before. Are you telling me that the SR-2 had an AI running it that had NO way of being recovered if something happened? Unless you are of the belief that she has a "soul" or other such mystical thing, she is still made of electrical circuits. That's exactly what I said, though in different words since I focused on Joker. I did not say, or imply, that it was just like turning back time. Kind of like severe trauma or brain injury in a person? Even ordinary life changes can make people interpret things differently. I said it was possible to get "EDI" back in some form, not that she was guaranteed to be her old self again. No, I still think brain injury is a good analogue. Even brain injury that is not severe enough to turn someone into a vegetable can drastically alter their abilities, personalities, perceptions, etc. Sometimes, this damage can be partially treated, other times it can't. This is analogous to what happened to EDI. Remember that EDI is not 100% reaper tech, she's only part reaper tech, and that part is what was targeted by the destroy pulse. The rest of her should be largely intact. So...which part of her is reaper-based, and how much? Is part of her hardware based on reaper tech? Or part of her software? Without knowing how much of her was destroyed, we can't say that bringing her back would be more like creating a clone, or more like treating brain damage in a person. All I'm saying is that there is a possibility, enough to headcanon something happy. Not sure why you're arguing so vehemently against that. Why is it tricky? I'm not talking about BW doing anything, I'm talking about what is within the realm of possibility for headcanon after the game ends. You say "just brings an EDI back" as if it's a simple matter. Again, I didn't say it was simple. I said specifically that she would need to re-humanize, meaning they could probably "fix" her to the point of being an AI again (this is where the backup comes in, plus replacing whatever parts of her were reaper-based), but they can't put the human side into her. That would need to happen organically and over time, like it did the first time, which is where all the variation will come in. With the new "EDI" knowing all the same people and receiving influence from them, it is possible that she would turn into a person that Joker could fall in love with again, and that she could fall in love with him. Anyway, your last sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Shepard was brought back to life. Is Shepard not one-of-a-kind? The idea that this civilization can fix a human brain after days (weeks?) without oxygen, and be returned to pretty much exactly the same person he or she was before -- but that the same level of technology has absolutely no hope of salvaging just one synthetic life and returning her to at least an AI state -- is absurd to me. It's certainly possible that BW intended exactly this absurdity, but since they've abandoned the Milky Way for at least the next game, I don't care what they intended or what they might hypothetically be able to tackle. It was part response to you, part open speculation. I wasn't really debating with you.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 15, 2017 3:02:59 GMT
a post destroy galaxy? hahaha my head cannon would have the asari in a world of hurt
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Post by fraggle on Mar 15, 2017 10:22:19 GMT
I've opened several threads and still haven't found the right one to answer my concern. You guys are probably tired of talking about the endings. I feel like the Destroy ending means you have little faith in organics and synthetics coming to a peace you may have actually already witnessed as Shepherd between the Quarians and the Geth. The fact that my Shepard supported the Geth's first real chance of life without the interference of others trying to destroy them further reinforced that she valued the synthetics as equal to the organics. In a way, I gave the quarians their own chance to overcome their guilt in the matter and turn things around; they took that chance and hung themselves with it. She also encouraged the relationship between Joker and EDI. I feel like Destroy just goes against her/our beliefs in the goodness of life. I have hard time imagining the "happy ending" with Thane that can be achieved with the Thane mod plus MEHEM mod for the Shepherd I played. And when talking abotu Destroy comes up, folks mention that it was about not taking any chances. @_@ but Shepherd took so many chances throughout the series. I can't even imagine recruiting half the folks we did, or not immediately blowing up the Normandy to destroy the unshackled AI, or... Maybe playing one character through two games made me too attached to the way it played out. No matter if people love or hate the ending (I actually loved it), the beauty for me in each ending is that there is no right or wrong. You can end up choosing all endings to have different meanings. I learned to have fun with developing Shepards that have a certain mindset and try to approach all endings from different angles, be open for them. Destroy, like the other endings too, can mean a variety of things depending on what your Shepard feels about it. It can mean to still distrust the geth and taking it for a chance to wipe them out in the progress, but also trust in the future, so that AIs and organics can coexist without someone pulling the strings and choosing their fate, like dragontartare already said (it's also my favourite reason for myself to choose Destroy) I really like reading about people's thoughts and reasoning for picking an ending. It was an interesting thread to read btw! Seeing people play for the first time is always exciting because it reminds me of how it was for me. It's funny too because I thought I'd play the trilogy once and be over with it (nope, I restarted right away after trying out the ME3 DLCs and the Extended Cut). Even now, when I read anything ME-related, I want to play it immediately again because I have withdrawal symptoms quite often whenever I don't play ME
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 22, 2017 23:20:25 GMT
a post destroy galaxy? hahaha my head cannon would have the asari in a world of hurt Don't know why but I sort of assume Thessia got hit harder than Earth or Palaven. Maybe Shepard's reaction had something to do with it. I could also see why the Reapers might go hard for a world full of biotics. And I'm not anti-asari the way you are.
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Post by phoray on Mar 24, 2017 6:48:59 GMT
a post destroy galaxy? hahaha my head cannon would have the asari in a world of hurt Don't know why but I sort of assume Thessia got hit harder than Earth or Palaven. Maybe Shepard's reaction had something to do with it. I could also see why the Reapers might go hard for a world full of biotics. And I'm not anti-asari the way you are. How harder? My concept of time passing was Earth had been invaded for months by the time Thessia got hit. To the point that major world leaders had been indoctrinated and started tricking folks into voluntarily submitting to the Reapers. Question; why does Mind Control effect Shaoard and Anderson? It occurred to me yesterday that that whole scene made little sense. Had she breathed little indoctrination nanobites?
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2017 6:57:53 GMT
Don't know why but I sort of assume Thessia got hit harder than Earth or Palaven. Maybe Shepard's reaction had something to do with it. I could also see why the Reapers might go hard for a world full of biotics. And I'm not anti-asari the way you are. How harder? My concept of time passing was Earth had been invaded for months by the time Thessia got hit. To the point that major world leaders had been indoctrinated and started tricking folks into voluntarily submitting to the Reapers. Question; why does Mind Control effect Shaoard and Anderson? It occurred to me yesterday that that whole scene made little sense. Had she breathed little indoctrination nanobites? Setting aside Indoctrination Theory (look it up if you're interested; I'm not a believer), it seems like TIM was able to use dark energy to control the minds of others. Given that asari can already mind meld this isn't really a stretch. It's just not something we've seen biotics be able to do.
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