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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 19:18:35 GMT
Hey, Okay, I see what you mean, though I have never experienced any of it. In my Renegade run, everything made sense, and I did not get any consequences that I did not like (I actually would have loved to see devastated Tuchanka, because I was very much anti-Krogan in my Renegade run and shot Wrex etc), or felt that my Paragon fared better in some way.
One thing that I loved that you say people were objecting to, was that no matter what I did, it did not impact my relationships with the crewmates, you could be sweet with them, and they appreciated it, instead of penalizing you in an arbitrary fashion like in DA during the missions. In that respect Paragon/renegade worked waaay better for me than the "gray' personality supposedly morality independent choices in DA:2. The MET kept personal and business completely separate. In the oblique system, the consequences of your choices reflect on the companions' opinions about the PC, instead of the blue & red meter, and I really dislike it, because the game is not flexible enough to actually simulate the real relationships or talk about stuff. "hey, I've just helped those unfortunate people! You are supposed to *love* that sort of things! Why are you NOT approving of that?!"
Plus, Renegade Shepard looked so cool...
Speaking of which, I'd really miss on the badass scars Renegade Shepard got, or the cosmetic rewards for sticking to the morality choices like in other games (glows or outfits...). It's not like picking the joke answers will make your character wake up one morning with a cool tattoo....
Yep, there are definitely things that I will miss about Paragon/Renegade.
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Post by degs29 on Feb 9, 2017 19:53:58 GMT
I've never seen a really well-done neutral dialogue system. Plenty of attempts, with varying degrees of success, but nothing extraordinary. Often such systems lead to unintended responses, which is also something people really bitch about.
I hope ME:A has a clear system for dialogue now that they're moving away from such clear choices.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Feb 9, 2017 19:57:45 GMT
theychangeditsoitsucks.jpg Pretty much. Also, people are butthurt from ME3 endings after all those years, and TW3 happened in the meanwhile so people will bash anything Bioware will do. Also, I'm replaying Pillars of Eternity for my RPG fix before ME:A is out, I still need to finish the two The White March parts. I like the system there, where many responses are attached to personality traits, but I guess it will be very hard to do in a game with a fully voiced protagonist. |
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Post by Cyonan on Feb 9, 2017 20:03:46 GMT
I'm glad to see that there will not be the standard "one choice must be paragon and one must be renegade" thing that the original trilogy going on.
If you weren't playing Shep as a pure paragon or pure renegade they could feel almost schizophrenic at times because of how it was all set up. At least until the third game when they started minimizing the differences between the two.
I just hope they allow for a greater range of personality than Inquisition did.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2017 20:36:15 GMT
One thing that I loved that you say people were objecting to, was that no matter what I did, it did not impact my relationships with the crewmates, you could be sweet with them, and they appreciated it, instead of penalizing you in an arbitrary fashion like in DA during the missions. In that respect Paragon/renegade worked waaay better for me than the "gray' personality supposedly morality independent choices in DA:2. The MET kept personal and business completely separate. In the oblique system, the consequences of your choices reflect on the companions' opinions about the PC, instead of the blue & red meter, and I really dislike it, because the game is not flexible enough to actually simulate the real relationships or talk about stuff. "hey, I've just helped those unfortunate people! You are supposed to *love* that sort of things! Why are you NOT approving of that?!" I don't see how this is a defense of P/R. Bio made plenty of questionable point calls there too. Or or are you just saying that companions should never have a negative opinion of anything the PC does? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 20:52:20 GMT
One thing that I loved that you say people were objecting to, was that no matter what I did, it did not impact my relationships with the crewmates, you could be sweet with them, and they appreciated it, instead of penalizing you in an arbitrary fashion like in DA during the missions. In that respect Paragon/renegade worked waaay better for me than the "gray' personality supposedly morality independent choices in DA:2. The MET kept personal and business completely separate. In the oblique system, the consequences of your choices reflect on the companions' opinions about the PC, instead of the blue & red meter, and I really dislike it, because the game is not flexible enough to actually simulate the real relationships or talk about stuff. "hey, I've just helped those unfortunate people! You are supposed to *love* that sort of things! Why are you NOT approving of that?!" I don't see how this is a defense of P/R. Bio made plenty of questionable point calls there too. Or or are you just saying that companions should never have a negative opinion of anything the PC does? For me it is connected, because in the MET Paragon/Renegade system, the consequences of the game-play choices were "business" related, while what you told to the companions personally moved your relationships with them forward. I have not seen that since... ever, probably, and boy, was it a relief. In Baldur's gate games your alignment impacted your companion's reactions, and in KOTOR2 you could simply bend every companion to your will. In DA2, the blue-red meter moved from the Paragon-Renegade to the Love-Hate you meter on each companion, and consequences of your "business" choices became personal. In ME:A they say that the companions would Love-Hate you based on your business choices as well, so that is going bring back the DA2 meter, even if it is hidden. If I am to have a meter (which seem to have to be an obligatory feature so they can say we are RP'ing) I'd rather it makes a selective audit of my decisions that impacts the state of my PC's skin or my response options in dialogues, not my ability to build personal relationships. Because, it's not exactly self-expression if I pick all the choices that an NPC I am trying to please likes, while not offending the other guy... In a personal dialogue I can take it. But in the quest resolutions, with multiple NPCs present, I'd rather not. I just felt much less constrained in making whatever choices I wanted in MET than in DA2. |
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Post by vonuber on Feb 9, 2017 21:09:13 GMT
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Post by Koss on Feb 9, 2017 21:12:48 GMT
Totally fine with them scrapping the renegade and paragon system. Should allow for more complexity and flexibility in morality.
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Post by Dark King on Feb 9, 2017 21:15:33 GMT
I'm glad the paragon/renegade that system got way to simplified as the series went on and like Cyonan said if you tried to mix it up Shepard could feel schizophrenic.
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Post by Cyonan on Feb 9, 2017 21:18:08 GMT
I don't see how this is a defense of P/R. Bio made plenty of questionable point calls there too. Or or are you just saying that companions should never have a negative opinion of anything the PC does? For me it is connected, because in the MET Paragon/Renegade system, the consequences of the game-play choices were "business" related, while what you told to the companions personally moved your relationships with them forward. I have not seen that since... ever, probably, and boy, was it a relief. In Baldur's gate games your alignment impacted your companion's reactions, and in KOTOR2 you could simply bend every companion to your will. In DA2, the blue-red meter moved from the Paragon-Renegade to the Love-Hate you meter on each companion, and consequences of your "business" choices became personal. In ME:A they say that the companions would Love-Hate you based on your business choices as well, so that is going bring back the DA2 meter, even if it is hidden. If I am to have a meter (which seem to have to be an obligatory feature so they can say we are RP'ing) I'd rather it makes a selective audit of my decisions that impacts the state of my PC's skin or my response options in dialogues, not my ability to build personal relationships. Because, it's not exactly self-expression if I pick all the choices that an NPC I am trying to please likes, while not offending the other guy... In a personal dialogue I can take it. But in the quest resolutions, with multiple NPCs present, I'd rather not. I just felt much less constrained in making whatever choices I wanted in MET than in DA2. I think DA:I did the love/hate meter better since it doesn't apply any sort of actual reward to it and hides it from the player. With Inquisition the thing about the meter is that a few decisions, even "strongly dislike" ones isn't going to turn a companion from loving you into hating you. You have to build up the hate over a pretty significant amount of time and keeping the meter out of view of the player stops the thinking of "oh crap it dropped a bit, that's bad!". It's also how actual RP tends to work. Not every character is going to accept your decisions and like you for it. If you want to RP a character that is always trying to please all of their squadmates to make them love them, that's your choice but assuming it's like DA:I there is no real penalty for not doing that. Feeling like other characters in the world wont just blindly accept whatever you say and do is the main part of RPing. It's what makes it seem like a real world as opposed to a sandbox where I reign supreme. Though I think developers are not fully getting what the point of the alignment system from D&D that these meters are all supposed to replace is for. It's generally supposed to be used for giving the player a better understanding of what the character's moral compass is supposed to be rather than some kind of reward based mechanic like many of them are making it out to be. Except for when they use it to make all Paladins eternally have a stick up their ass, anyway. |
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 9, 2017 21:19:47 GMT
I never particularly cared for the Paragon/Renegade system. It was way to rigid and didn't allow me to play my character the way I wanted. I'm happy to see it replaced but good lord how can people complain about this???? On the Gamespot article I looked at people where talking about how it was lazy, how it would just be a worse version of Fallout 4, and how the choices would be boring.... Man some people really want this game to fail. Just gonna chew through the fat here... The Paragon/Renegade system was by no means perfect there were plenty of times when I myself felt it constraints when I chose to not fully commit to one way or the other but as Inquisition or Fallout 4 has shown pure neutrality is by no means better. Your essentially left with a main character who sounds monotone a majority of the time and ham fisted whenever you decide to pick the option with the angry face icon. I'm not entirely sold on the all this talk from the devs about there being more "gray" options but if Ryder is just another Inquisitor then I'll be thoroughly disappointed Hear hear. I've yet to play a fully voiced protagonist other than Shepard who wasn't boring. Maaaybe Alpha Protocol. Not that Shepard had much of a personality, but certainly more than the Inquisitor. Keeping it down to just two (sometimes three) options made sure that there was consistency in tone. Having four flavors of dialogue might be too much, I think. We'll see. |
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Post by Nightlife on Feb 9, 2017 21:29:02 GMT
I liked the simplistic Paragon/Renegade system honestly. Yeah, u knew which choices to pick all the time but it felt right with my Sheps. I generally played full Paragon or full Renegade. But, I know it didn't leave room for anything in between.
I wonder about the new system and how previous statements or actions enable different statements in the current convo. You had to "earn" the blue and red choices in ME1-3 through your actions/speech. Will you not need to earn choices in ME:A and be able to pick any of them? Not sure how I feel about that.
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Post by deebo305 on Feb 9, 2017 21:31:25 GMT
I just hope they allow for a greater range of personality than Inquisition did. This is my only real concern right I really did not like the Inquisiitor all that much due to how monotoone they were compare to Hawke & Shepard, this is something I see alot in games with approval sysstems and while some llove I tolerate only because the rest of cast always ends up more believable and flesh out compare to the main character and I do not want that at all. I don't want to headcannon how my guy/girl is feeling I want to see them fully express themselve through words, facial animation and body language; this was all done in the MET & DA2 but lost in Inquisition. Hopefully Andromeda gets it right |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 21:36:35 GMT
For me it is connected, because in the MET Paragon/Renegade system, the consequences of the game-play choices were "business" related, while what you told to the companions personally moved your relationships with them forward. I have not seen that since... ever, probably, and boy, was it a relief. In Baldur's gate games your alignment impacted your companion's reactions, and in KOTOR2 you could simply bend every companion to your will. In DA2, the blue-red meter moved from the Paragon-Renegade to the Love-Hate you meter on each companion, and consequences of your "business" choices became personal. In ME:A they say that the companions would Love-Hate you based on your business choices as well, so that is going bring back the DA2 meter, even if it is hidden. If I am to have a meter (which seem to have to be an obligatory feature so they can say we are RP'ing) I'd rather it makes a selective audit of my decisions that impacts the state of my PC's skin or my response options in dialogues, not my ability to build personal relationships. Because, it's not exactly self-expression if I pick all the choices that an NPC I am trying to please likes, while not offending the other guy... In a personal dialogue I can take it. But in the quest resolutions, with multiple NPCs present, I'd rather not. I just felt much less constrained in making whatever choices I wanted in MET than in DA2. I think DA:I did the love/hate meter better since it doesn't apply any sort of actual reward to it and hides it from the player. With Inquisition the thing about the meter is that a few decisions, even "strongly dislike" ones isn't going to turn a companion from loving you into hating you. You have to build up the hate over a pretty significant amount of time and keeping the meter out of view of the player stops the thinking of "oh crap it dropped a bit, that's bad!". It's also how actual RP tends to work. Not every character is going to accept your decisions and like you for it. If you want to RP a character that is always trying to please all of their squadmates to make them love them, that's your choice but assuming it's like DA:I there is no real penalty for not doing that. Feeling like other characters in the world wont just blindly accept whatever you say and do is the main part of RPing. It's what makes it seem like a real world as opposed to a sandbox where I reign supreme. Though I think developers are not fully getting what the point of the alignment system from D&D that these meters are all supposed to replace is for. It's generally supposed to be used for giving the player a better understanding of what the character's moral compass is supposed to be rather than some kind of reward based mechanic like many of them are making it out to be. Except for when they use it to make all Paladins eternally have a stick up their ass, anyway. It might work with characters that are very consistent, BUT if they have multiple agendas, and if a developer has a more complex idea over what their character likes and disliked, AND the game does not like the neutrality, it is bad in either system. Neutrality in the Paragon/Renegade scale - no extra response options, you lose quest resolutions. Neutrality with a character like Fenris that likes this and dislikes that, and it does not fit with a PC making logically sound choices, you end up losing content due to neutrality. The new games do not have twenty-five Companions the way the Baldur's Gate did, to build any kind of aligned party, so you end up with half-a dozen companions, and you like even less of them, and if they happen to like different things, well, my condolences.... I guess, if I may put it this way, for a "gray" system to work, they got to stop penalizing the neutrality, and index PC on very telling personal exchanges with the characters. And those selective audits of the PC responses to determine personal relationships need to be more frequent and equalized between the companions. |
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Post by ProbeAway on Feb 9, 2017 21:50:43 GMT
Just gonna chew through the fat here... The Paragon/Renegade system was by no means perfect there were plenty of times when I myself felt it constraints when I chose to not fully commit to one way or the other but as Inquisition or Fallout 4 has shown pure neutrality is by no means better. Your essentially left with a main character who sounds monotone a majority of the time and ham fisted whenever you decide to pick the option with the angry face icon. I'm not entirely sold on the all this talk from the devs about there being more "gray" options but if Ryder is just another Inquisitor then I'll be thoroughly disappointed Hear hear. I've yet to play a fully voiced protagonist other than Shepard and Hawke who wasn't boring. Maaaybe Alpha Protocol. Not that Shepard had much of a personality, but certainly more than the Inquisitor. Keeping it down to just two (sometimes three) options made sure that there was consistency in tone. Having four flavors of dialogue might be too much, I think. We'll see. FTFY  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 21:51:55 GMT
It all depends on how they implement the actual line-by-line dialogue within it. The new system could represent less actual range of choices... or not. I'll just wait to play the game before passing judgment.
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Post by Cyonan on Feb 9, 2017 22:13:28 GMT
It might work with characters that are very consistent, BUT if they have multiple agendas, and if a developer has a more complex idea over what their character likes and disliked, AND the game does not like the neutrality, it is bad in either system. Neutrality in the Paragon/Renegade scale - no extra response options, you lose quest resolutions. Neutrality with a character like Fenris that likes this and dislikes that, and it does not fit with a PC making logically sound choices, you end up losing content due to neutrality. The new games do not have twenty-five Companions the way the Baldur's Gate did, to build any kind of aligned party, so you end up with half-a dozen companions, and you like even less of them, and if they happen to like different things, well, my condolences.... I guess, if I may put it this way, for a "gray" system to work, they got to stop penalizing the neutrality, and index PC on very telling personal exchanges with the characters. And those selective audits of the PC responses to determine personal relationships need to be more frequent and equalized between the companions. That's why I noted DA:I's system, because it made a few important changes from DA2. Notably you aren't penalized for taking a more neutral path, but rather only if you make the companion actively hate you. For the most part romances are tied to the approval system in that game, but if you make a companion hate you enough they can actually leave. Approval rating can also affect how a companion talks to you during dialogue a bit. Though I as noted earlier, you have to really be trying to piss them off to make it that bad that you risk losing them as a party member. Playing a variety of characters in multiple playthroughs of DA:I I've never run into an issue of not being able to access content. Part of the reason for this is that the bar doesn't move very quickly so you need to do more than just a few decisions to ruin it, and throughout basic conversations with your companions you should be getting plenty of approval rating from just dialogue choices you make with them(that affects only them). Plus the fact that the game keeps it hidden from you means you're more focused on actually RPing your character and less worried about if you gained enough arbitrary points to initiate the side quests you get from having those points. Personally I've always felt more restricted playing Mass Effect than I have Dragon Age, because I need the arbitrary number of good/asshole points if I want those certain quest resolutions and the amount required is much more extreme than it is in Dragon Age. You pretty much have to be full Paragon or full Renegade to make your entire team loyal in ME2. |
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Post by annisa on Feb 9, 2017 22:17:31 GMT
Well, if done right, i welcome this change. I always go full paragon (or renegade) for fear of loosing points. It would be nice change to not have to worry about that, and just go with what feels right for the character.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 22:17:52 GMT
I just hope they allow for a greater range of personality than Inquisition did. This is my only real concern right I really did not like the Inquisiitor all that much due to how monotoone they were compare to Hawke & Shepard, this is something I see alot in games with approval sysstems and while some llove I tolerate only because the rest of cast always ends up more believable and flesh out compare to the main character and I do not want that at all. I don't want to headcannon how my guy/girl is feeling I want to see them fully express themselve through words, facial animation and body language; this was all done in the MET & DA2 but lost in Inquisition. Hopefully Andromeda gets it right That works so long as the way your character is feeling was preconceived by the writers, animators, and VA... in which case, it's really their character, not yours. Which is fine if that's what you enjoy. It doesn't work out so well if the character you think you're playing would not react in one of the ~ 2-3 ways the game provides. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 22:28:11 GMT
I never thought mixing paragon/renegade made it schitzo. On the contrary I can point to a time when what should certainly be a paragon way of thinking directly informed my renegade choice:
ME1, the side mission where you find an ExoGeni camp overrun by Creepers. If you've already done Feros you know what they are and cut through the lead scientist's bullshit right away. You can call her out for being responsible for the deaths of her people and she tries to bribe you to let her get away with it. For a while there I wasn't sure how to play it. But then, going through the convo again made everything crystal clear. My Shep's a Father to His Men and if there's one thing he doesn't go for it's not protecting the people under you. So this person must face justice (paragon). She tries to weasel out of it once, he doesn't budge, he gives her an opportunity to do what's right. She tries to bribe him. At that point it's clear. She didn't learn. There's only one response- boom headshot.
Now obviously the full paragon route would've been to arrest her. But I rather like my reasoning and I think it works perfectly for the kind of character I created. Great RP opportunity and a nice blend of blue/orange.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 22:34:25 GMT
This is my only real concern right I really did not like the Inquisiitor all that much due to how monotoone they were compare to Hawke & Shepard, this is something I see alot in games with approval sysstems and while some llove I tolerate only because the rest of cast always ends up more believable and flesh out compare to the main character and I do not want that at all. I don't want to headcannon how my guy/girl is feeling I want to see them fully express themselve through words, facial animation and body language; this was all done in the MET & DA2 but lost in Inquisition. Hopefully Andromeda gets it right That works so long as the way your character is feeling was preconceived by the writers, animators, and VA... in which case, it's really their character, not yours. Which is fine if that's what you enjoy. It doesn't work out so well if the character you think you're playing would not react in one of the ~ 2-3 ways the game provides. The article said that it is still only two to four responces, so it is not going to give you a much wider range of personalities than the two extremes, a funny guy/gal, and, if it's 4 responces, "something else". I would not mind seeing an eternal optimist with an upbeat voicing, and a pessimist, and a sarcastic persona, but in the end of the day, they gotta move the plot forward too, and it's 4 options. A lot will depend on the VAs, and if the dialogues are lively and alive enough to actually come to care for your protagonist. I do love Shepard, and feel both the connection and ownership, more so than in DA. |
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Post by ravenous on Feb 9, 2017 22:34:57 GMT
I am happy, thrilled, estactic that the system is gone. I think I am going to like the new conversation/chat system that Andromeda is going to have, though of course I want to play it and try out the different chat options with the new system. Till I can actually get my hands on the chat options I think that I will like the new chat system
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 22:36:35 GMT
I never thought mixing paragon/renegade made it schitzo. On the contrary I can point to a time when what should certainly be a paragon way of thinking directly informed my renegade choice: ME1, the side mission where you find an ExoGeni camp overrun by Creepers. If you've already done Feros you know what they are and cut through the lead scientist's bullshit right away. You can call her out for being responsible for the deaths of her people and she tries to bribe you to let her get away with it. For a while there I wasn't sure how to play it. But then, going through the convo again made everything crystal clear. My Shep's a Father to His Men and if there's one thing he doesn't go for it's not protecting the people under you. So this person must face justice (paragon). She tries to weasel out of it once, he doesn't budge, he gives her an opportunity to do what's right. She tries to bribe him. At that point it's clear. She didn't learn. There's only one response- boom headshot. Now obviously the full paragon route would've been to arrest her. But I rather like my reasoning and I think it works perfectly for the kind of character I created. Great RP opportunity and a nice blend of blue/orange. Same with shooting Kai Leng in the face on a Paragon who romanced Thane. It is precisely this action being out of character that shows how deeply she is impacted. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 22:49:41 GMT
I never thought mixing paragon/renegade made it schitzo. On the contrary I can point to a time when what should certainly be a paragon way of thinking directly informed my renegade choice: ME1, the side mission where you find an ExoGeni camp overrun by Creepers. If you've already done Feros you know what they are and cut through the lead scientist's bullshit right away. You can call her out for being responsible for the deaths of her people and she tries to bribe you to let her get away with it. For a while there I wasn't sure how to play it. But then, going through the convo again made everything crystal clear. My Shep's a Father to His Men and if there's one thing he doesn't go for it's not protecting the people under you. So this person must face justice (paragon). She tries to weasel out of it once, he doesn't budge, he gives her an opportunity to do what's right. She tries to bribe him. At that point it's clear. She didn't learn. There's only one response- boom headshot. Now obviously the full paragon route would've been to arrest her. But I rather like my reasoning and I think it works perfectly for the kind of character I created. Great RP opportunity and a nice blend of blue/orange. Same with shooting Kai Leng in the face on a Paragon who romanced Thane. It is precisely this action being out of character that shows how deeply she is impacted. ... or the renegade interrupt that causes Shepard to shoot TIM right at the end of ME3; thereby, not allowing him to shoot Anderson... It's really a paragon choice at the point. One can follow the paragon dialogue path from the start and, I think, TIM shoots himself (it's been a long time since I played it that way); but I honestly find the renegade dialogue much more appealing for a paragon Shepard who is simply not afraid to point-blank tell time he's gone too far. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 23:09:21 GMT
Same with shooting Kai Leng in the face on a Paragon who romanced Thane. It is precisely this action being out of character that shows how deeply she is impacted. Well in my case, the action wasn't out of character, it was actually perfectly in character, and the NPCs responses to my, up to that point, fairly paragon choices, perfectly lead to the renegade finisher. And honestly, unless they go backwards and punish you from deviating from one side or another a la ME2 I couldn't care less whether the system remains or is thrown out, because I do my own thing as it is. That's the real downside of false dichotomy moral choice systems- forcing you to either be a saint or a dickhead, either through lack of more nuanced options or by actively punishing you for not picking a side and sticking with it. |
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Be seeing you.