The trouble with any 'paragon/renegade' system is they are based on someone else's views. For example I am a big fan of SW:ToR and some of the 'Light/Dark' choices to me don't sit right as they are based on someone else's (group probably) moral code and my code may differ so you can't please everyone, you never will.
There was some good things about the old system, but in the end I'm not mad that it's gone now. Ultimately didn't make whole lot of sense in the setting and sometimes, like somebody mentioned, felt schizophrenic to switch between the two. I could never play 100% Paragon or Renegade, because I like to roleplay my characters and always choose options that best suit their personality and the situation, so whether it's viewed by some as "good" or "bad" never mattered to me. What I most disliked was being locked out of certain choices because of the system... Like I never could recruit Morinth to my team, because I just didn't have enough points in either category. That was very frustrating.
So I'm hopeful and curious to see how the new system works. It seems like it could be little similar to DA2's system. I think DA2 dialogue system was pretty good - until they introduced the Dragon Age Keep. Now I was forced to choose just one personality that best fit my Hawke. See, I never did that. I didn't play "sarcastic" or "aggressive" Hawke, I just always chose the best answer for the situation and my character. So I hope MEA doesn't force us to play certain character type (= choose only one type of dialogue options).
Bioware has emphasized going towards more "neutral" options, but I hope they still realize that people will want dark and light options as well. One of the biggest complaints about DAI was not being able to play chaotic/neutral/lawful evil character. I really liked what they did with SWTOR: great options to play both heroic and evil characters (and everything between). I love that game, even if it is a MMO. I hope we get a chance to play more narcissistic, self-serving, mercenary, rebellious or perhaps just misguided, etc, character if we so wish. Playing the "great hero" only feels good if you can also play the anti-hero and make all the wrong choices. No light without dark, etc.
Bioware has emphasized going towards more "neutral" options, but I hope they still realize that people will want dark and light options as well. One of the biggest complaints about DAI was not being able to play chaotic/neutral/lawful evil character. I really liked what they did with SWTOR: great options to play both heroic and evil characters (and everything between). I love that game, even if it is a MMO. I hope we get a chance to play more narcissistic, self-serving, mercenary, rebellious or perhaps just misguided, etc, character if we so wish. Playing the "great hero" only feels good if you can also play the anti-hero and make all the wrong choices. No light without dark, etc.
I agree with this concern. Maybe not so much "good" vs "bad" but it's important for choices to have actual consequences, and it's even better if those consequences make sense.
The worst thing I could imagine is a game where every "choice" leads to the exact same outcome, and all you can control is your character's tone (e.g., snarky).
I never particularly cared for the Paragon/Renegade system. It was way to rigid and didn't allow me to play my character the way I wanted. I'm happy to see it replaced but good lord how can people complain about this???? On the Gamespot article I looked at people where talking about how it was lazy, how it would just be a worse version of Fallout 4, and how the choices would be boring.... Man some people really want this game to fail. At this point I think people who have nothing but negative things to say about this game and don't offer constructive criticism should just stay away from anything related to this game. The only constructive criticism I saw that I agree with was someone saying they hope their decisions actually have an impact to the story. I would like to see choices that actually alter the ending to the game rather than just effect what you say, ME2 did a decent job with this.
Of course people complain because if there's only one interrupt you won't know what your character does if you use it (!) - with the old system you at least knew that you would most likely be an asshole if you take renegade (or kill somebody if an enemy is nearby at that moment), with the new system you don't know what will happen (can't even guess!)
I mean what happens if you have a crying companion and take the interrupt (hoping that you'd comfort him/her!) and your character just barks at that companion to stop crying like a little whimp? (extreme example, but you get what I want to say, do you?)
greetings LAX ps: I think it's a good idea to do away with the rigid system, but I am afraid of the outcome - I mean look at Fallout 4 when they changed the dialogue system (the new one is total crap, just like almost all other RPG elements in that game and this is a trend ATM...look at Dragon Age: Origins (which had silent protagonist and a good dialogue system) and at Dragon Age: Inquisition with it's ME-Style system...
Post by phantomrachie on Feb 10, 2017 15:59:18 GMT
My major issue with the paragon renegade system was that after ME1 it became linked to your ability to 'convince' people. I tend to play a very diplomatic Shep so in ME2 & ME3 I really had to make sure I picked either all paragon or renegade choices or it ment I'd miss an conversation option.
My favourite dialogue system to date as been in DA2. Conversation options are tagged with personality rather than 'good or bad' and fed into the friendship/rivalry system, which I also loved. DA:I was an interesting development on in DA:2 dialogue system but it didn't allow you to create as a definitive personality for the Inquisitor as you were able to for Hawke and it was a lot harder to work out where you stood with your characters.
My ideal ME:A system would be a mix of ME3, DA2 & DA:I. The ability to create a Ryder with a definitive personality like Sarcastic Hawke but with more 'emotion' responses so you have more personality types that you can develop for Ryder and the reputation system from ME3 that you could use to convince people in dialogue
One thing I miss from DAO is the coercion skill, which (combined with your cunning or strength) would govern how well you can persuade or intimidate people. As someone who always likes to play as a character who can convince people to do what I want, I would always max this skill first.
For Mass Effect, to achieve the same end, I would have to max my paragon/renegade scores in order to advance the charm and intimidate skills. For Mass Effect 2 and 3, the system is entirely dependent on paragon/renegade scores.
I dislike morality being tied to persuasive ability (as well as type of persuasive ability--good=charming, bad=intimidating), and I am glad that this system is changing in MEA.
I never payed much attention to whole renegade/paragon-system. I just chose what I felt like, just like I do in every game. And then I had to use save-game editor to get some results I wanted when I did different play throughs. But, I rather used editor than began to let some arbitary point-system to decide my playstyle. I like they ditched that system. I'm too concerned about possible lack of personality, as I felt in DAI my character was a potato, and no matter what of the three dialogue choices I picked up, the results were same. My character said basicly the same thing, the tone just varied. Who cares how I say "yes" if I can only say "yes".
My major issue with the paragon renegade system was that after ME1 it became linked to your ability to 'convince' people. I tend to play a very diplomatic Shep so in ME2 & ME3 I really had to make sure I picked either all paragon or renegade choices or it ment I'd miss an conversation option.
My favourite dialogue system to date as been in DA2. Conversation options are tagged with personality rather than 'good or bad' and fed into the friendship/rivalry system, which I also loved. DA:I was an interesting development on in DA:2 dialogue system but it didn't allow you to create as a definitive personality for the Inquisitor as you were able to for Hawke and it was a lot harder to work out where you stood with your characters.
My ideal ME:A system would be a mix of ME3, DA2 & DA:I. The ability to create a Ryder with a definitive personality like Sarcastic Hawke but with more 'emotion' responses so you have more personality types that you can develop for Ryder and the reputation system from ME3 that you could use to convince people in dialogue
In ME1, the P/R system was linked to your ability to convince people. You needed to attain various levels of paragon or renegade points in order to unlock the slots where you could then assign XP points to charm or intimidate. If you didn't select enough, say, paragon dialogue options, you would not unlock all the 12 slots in charm and would not be able to talk Jeong down on Feros by using a charm option. You also lost out on a whole morality-alligned mission if you didn't get the relevant bar high enough.
In reality, all the charm/intimidate slots were open right at the beginning of ME2. The only issue of the paragon/renegade system in ME2 is that some of the morality checks were so high that people really noticed that they hadn't accumulated enough points to pass certain ones of those checks. If those checks had of been lower, I doubt anyone would have had much of a problem with the P/R designation in ME2.
Like ME3, where an import Shepard passes most checks and a completionist Shepard passes all of them.
Of course, Shepard always passing all the checks isn't great either. It's just about impossible for an import Shepard to fail to talk the VS down on the Citadel.
Like ME3, where an import Shepard passes most checks and a completionist Shepard passes all of them.
Of course, Shepard always passing all the checks isn't great either. It's just about impossible for an import Shepard to fail to talk the VS down on the Citadel.
... and a completionist paragon import Shepard can, however, lose the ability to shoot the VS during the coup... If the player outright passes the "hidden" point check, the VS will instantly and automatically stand down and side with Shepard, giving Shepard no opportunity to shoot the VS at all.
In theory this new system is better, although I still do not have a good feel for head, heart, professional, casual as they relate to distinctive voices. Like many others I hated DAI's approach...sure it had a lot of options but was pretty vanilla sounding regardless of the response. I also didn't care for so and so disapproves and such and such approves constantly popping up. I think all that does is steer people to certain decisions because of how their most beloved characters will react, ultimately limiting decision making. I'd like such things hidden...or the ability to turn it off in lieu of Bio taking it off the UI would be nice. My favorite approach so far was DA2's. Despite being one of Bioware's poorest games to date (as a whole) my male/female Hawke's are among my most memorable characters...right up there with many of my Shepard's. I can barely remember my Inquisitor's. The point is I hope these 4 voice options are 1) present in every conversation; 2) very distinct from one another allowing us to craft different personalities. If Bio does it correctly, at a minimum, I should be able to play through each dialogue option for either gender leading to a different story experience.
Fair enough but 4 options is better than 2, I guess.......
I never payed much attention to whole renegade/paragon-system. I just chose what I felt like, just like I do in every game. And then I had to use save-game editor to get some results I wanted when I did different play throughs. But, I rather used editor than began to let some arbitary point-system to decide my playstyle. I like they ditched that system. I'm too concerned about possible lack of personality, as I felt in DAI my character was a potato, and no matter what of the three dialogue choices I picked up, the results were same. My character said basicly the same thing, the tone just varied. Who cares how I say "yes" if I can only say "yes".
It seems like Bioware is trying to get away from that to.
My major issue with the paragon renegade system was that after ME1 it became linked to your ability to 'convince' people. I tend to play a very diplomatic Shep so in ME2 & ME3 I really had to make sure I picked either all paragon or renegade choices or it meant I'd miss a conversation option.
My favourite dialogue system to date as been in DA2. Conversation options are tagged with personality rather than 'good or bad' and fed into the friendship/rivalry system, which I also loved. DA:I was an interesting development on in DA:2 dialogue system but it didn't allow you to create as a definitive personality for the Inquisitor as you were able to for Hawke and it was a lot harder to work out where you stood with your characters.
My ideal ME:A system would be a mix of ME3, DA2 & DA:I. The ability to create a Ryder with a definitive personality like Sarcastic Hawke but with more 'emotion' responses so you have more personality types that you can develop for Ryder and the reputation system from ME3 that you could use to convince people in dialogue
In ME1, the P/R system was linked to your ability to convince people. You needed to attain various levels of paragon or renegade points in order to unlock the slots where you could then assign XP points to charm or intimidate. If you didn't select enough, say, paragon dialogue options, you would not unlock all the 12 slots in charm and would not be able to talk Jeong down on Feros by using a charm option. You also lost out on a whole morality-alligned mission if you didn't get the relevant bar high enough.
In reality, all the charm/intimidate slots were open right at the beginning of ME2. The only issue of the paragon/renegade system in ME2 is that some of the morality checks were so high that people really noticed that they hadn't accumulated enough points to pass certain ones of those checks. If those checks had of been lower, I doubt anyone would have had much of a problem with the P/R designation in ME2.
That is a good call out. Although I'm replying ME1 at the moment and they don't feel as linked as they did in ME2. Perhaps it is because the charm & intimidate seem to open up naturally as you level, so the link between them is more difficult to perceive. Whereas in ME2 it was very in your face if you didn't have enough paragon or renegade points to continue. On the flip side of that, I loved the fact that the ability to perform interrupts wasn't linked to the bar. My paragon Shep was still able to pull off a renegade interrupt if she felt it necessary.
I never really felt that the system was a big issue though, it just bugged me that it seemed designed for Shep to be either 100% one way or the other.
Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 11, 2017 0:24:58 GMT
Unless this is a troll thread... Sigh. This. Again. People complaining about ME3, then praise ME:A -then those who complain about ME:A praise ME3. This has been done to death, killed, resurrected, killed again, eaten by the human reaper and then vomited out. I say take the game on its merits. Don't like it? -fine. Like it? -fine. Play what you don't want to complain about then you be happy.
Post by missileglitcher on Feb 11, 2017 0:29:48 GMT
im really glad that it's gone, it's a really stupid and restrictive system. i want random response options in the dialogue wheel instead of predetermined paragon and renegade options. i also want troll options within the dialogue, because i rarely like to respond to anything in a serious manner, and i want my character in this garbage game to reflect that. it's gonna be worse than mass effect 2.
Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 1:15:22 GMT
Changing vocal minorities depending on which way the tides sway.
I was always for the paragon/renegade system. I loved it in ME2 and I wouldn't have changed a thing. Then they turned it into reputation in a game that already didn't allow you to truly play around with controlling your morality allignment due to the lack of dialogue options and now they're removing it.
Beh. Don't care, but I'm fine with it if the dialogue responses are at least worthwhile.
"A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white." - L'Etoile
