Gil Brodie - Chief Engineer (Official Thread)

One thing though, Bioware is nearly totally delivering on the sex scene equality haha. Can't say either Gil or Patch Jaal disappoint there. Sure its not *quite* as far it it'd go for straight (not "as far as I'd want it to go", as I actually am quite charmed by the non-sex choice Cora scene), but I'll take it.

There will always be humans in ME in a strong role at least as long as Mac Walters is in charge of the creative side. Its a story of humanity. Bioware will contrive anything and everything in order to give humanity a strong and upward role, while the other species a present but surrounding role.

DA had Anders. Was talking about series getting around to something or not getting around to it, not it happening in a particular title.

I haven't dated a white guy in over a decade, nor it is a priority in virtual stories or real life, other than it broadly existing in order to do a basest recognition of, well, humanity. I don't know why you got that from me. My point was something else entirely, and had more to do with speculating reasons behind a potential pattern, not anything I wanted. Hint: I was cool with most of Gil's story in itself, and his looks in themselves. (I was going to go Gil until I had more exposure to Jill and baby material and how it was presented.) I was not cool with a big part of his story, and I'm curious and critical about what may be Bioware's process behind what they choose for story and looks.

In regards to your point about Scott/male NPCs' race, I take it, but I don't think it really resolves the matter to me. KOTOR had no gay male, Jade Empire had no gay male, Mass Effect had no gay male, Dragon Age: Origins had no gay male, Mass Effect 2 had no gay male, Dragon Age 2 had no gay male (even Anders would be bi at most, I think), Mass Effect 3 had one poc gay male, Dragon Age: Inquisition had one poc gay male, Mass Effect: Andromeda had one poc gay male.
That's not enough to establish a clear pattern, but its enough for me to wonder if it will soon (1-2 more games). And in that wondering, I consider the possibility that its done in order to fit more (as least offensive to straights) minority characteristics in a minority delegated slot (that being the literally programmed NPC). They won't go 'too far', so there's the Miranda and Cora and (in a sense) Ashley to happen, but while I won't ever inisist, I won't be surprised if the same happens in a ME5 for gay males.
It wasn't about the exact race. Its about speculating on the culture and decisions of Bioware. On one end, trying to hit majority demographics. On the other hand, trying to consider minority demographics. Two ME games isn't enough for me to really care about this one part, but a perception of this one part surely adds up a whole larger perception of Gil as 'filler' and not a strong (designed) character on its own. It fits into the character creator face, the lesser role, the seemingly thoughtless Jill story, and so on, as him being an unequal position on the ship (okay, that happens) and supposed equal romance (okay, that's not so cool). This isn't the only unequal romance for sure, but gay men only have one. So tends to be the case with say straight men and women (with straight women and men NPCs), but we can be sure those romances will be handled quite sufficiently, to the point of being polished up enough for trailers, and coverage in game being rather central to plot, with a custom face, and more of a mixed probability (so far) of race, and so on.

When it comes to the race point though, I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing. I think your point is valid but it isn't enough for me. And you seem to think I don't have much of a point and may be coming from a more racIAL angle than I intend. Agree to disagree?


EDIT: Its not that I think any Bioware game *won't* have a white gay (cis) male NPC as a fully equal (to the supposed 'headliners') romance option - its that I haven't seen the combo of that ever happen and I have doubts they'll be jumping to make that happen. Why white when you can perhaps do POC for the social audience looking more at the gay characters anyway, why gay male when you could straight male, why gay male when you could bi male, why equal when you can stick them somewhere else in more of a corner, why custom face when you can CC, and so on. Any one or more of these factors could happen, but the whole combo? Maybe, but I don't think they're inclined to doing it. And for one game, ME3, I felt...frankly, absolutely fine with it. Now with two games, I get a bit irked at the idea of this becoming a pattern. If its a 3rd (oh not the engineer or shuttle pilot this time, but cook! Or medic! Or random rather unimportant stowaway helping out!), then I'll get into 'this is a goddamn lazy and getting disrespectful pattern Bioware, stop thanks'.

This is frankly pages more typing on this matter than I ever intended to type.

EDIT: Note that the issue with the race thing is something kinda opposite that I'd say for more mainstreamed media haha, which would go for quite a long time the other way - ONLY white thin effeminate gays, no other race, no other build, nothing beyond a mostly inoffensive (in another way) effeminacy. Bioware, in my opinion, counteracts a lot of culture, but just might get into its own tropes and patterns in the process . Less damaging and annoying ones though. Don't worry.. I'm downright applauding inclusion of LGBT POC in itself. (and more masculine ones being noted instead of assumed to not exist)

Its not always such a determined choice. I know one gay man who married a woman (implication I think was that he kinda sleepwalked into it) and had a child (implication I think was that he also sleepwalked into forcing himself into it because its what he's supposed to to), and now they're divorced (I think friends? I'm not sure, maybe not in contact at all) and he is the primary parent of his now teenage child, while he's in a relationship.

But generally - yes. At least significantly more often than for straight people.



Bingo. This is all my primary concern. It isn't even Gil being someone who avoids the responsibility of choice - it is RYDER appearing to facilitate it, or be encouraged by the designers to facilitate it. And of course, all through this, there is the defense of/by Bioware possible of 'this is just the character'. Yes, but you didn't need to write this character like this at all. We can call out writing that's anything from homophobic to simply ignorant of subject matter, or at least of what audiences may actually enjoy actively choosing for a positive romantic roleplay.

I never even grew up with the whole baby pressure myself, to my recollection. Usually these narratives don't strike me personally, by themselves. My gay life has been mostly fine in the gay regard, heh. But I know others, sometimes very closely, that have been. Gay men bullied by culture or family (or really, it tends to be a mix of both). Bi men who take a particular path of less resistance even if it rips them inside over time that they took that path when and how they did. There's a lot of subtext to real relationships that this aspect of Gil's story strikes with me, and its become one of the top uncomfortable things in the series for me. I basically leave it out of mind when review scoring MEA, since instead of a 7-8, I'd give it a 6, and I'd prefer not to do that for a single personal reason.

Its especially juxtaposed against the idea of the Initiative hardly then softly 'rationing' births anyway. You don't need to, Gil. You don't need to be..so weird, Jill. Or maybe you both can think that, but wow, this game won't let me at the very least fully detach from the creepy scenario? Yeah thanks for this gay romance Bioware.

With all my ranting, I'm willing to give Gil another shot. In a future playthrough that may never come. With DLC/sequel that resolves (I'd prefer resolves rather than ignores or handwaves) my problems with it. Majority of his character is likable enough, he has an actor I like, and he's on the attractive side to me aside from that facial hair pattern and that it is character-creator-created. I like when developers fix things, not walk away and pretend nothing happened.

As has been pointed out to me in discussions about this issue (MEA was my first ME game), Miranda already satisfies that argument.

Both Miranda and her sister were created from their father's DNA.

From the ME wiki:

I've never played the MET, so that's all I know about it.

Really though, the biggest issue with this whole Jill thing is not the baby itself, it's the language and everything associated with it, which just leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Gil's non-romanced response also doesn't make him look great either, and shows he's not doing this for the right reason. It's just bad all around, regardless of the method used to obtain the baby.

Something I've thought about with Gil's non-romanced plot, reading between the lines makes it seem like he has a lot more baggage about losing his mother early and never knowing his father than he let's on, and that's why he doesn't like the idea of stopping his contribution at being a sperm donor. That's something that can be expanded on in a DLC.

I don't know my dad at all, so I am not sure if I'm better or worse for not having him in my life. I do know a good dad is great to have, but a bad dad can be worse then not having one. So it just isn't a universal rule there really.

I still think Jill is a shit character.  If she had been only a small part like she should have been-it would have been fine. Making her the central theme and most developed part in a gay male to male romance was a horrible choice.

Or, maybe Gil was just expressing his personal beliefs that resulted from never having a father figure in his life?

I enjoy Gil's storyline, but I could do without Jill. She seems to me almost homophobic even if she has a "good feeling" about him and Ryder. I'd gladly foster a child with him, but I don't like having creepy Jill around LOL...

Oh yeah that would have been amazing! I really love this idea that Gil and Scott are the ones who come up with the baby idea and then ask Jill to help them. 

Seems like it might not be terribly difficult to fix. If they did that...well, it wouldn't make up for a freaking 19 minute love story, but it would be a start.

Eh, I waffle on the issue. Part of me likes the notion of raising a baby with someone like Gil, but yeah the limited content does make it VERY hard to justify sharing time with Baby story lines. sigh... Either way, I would have much preferred Gil and Scott wanting to raise a baby together-then the way it is now.

It isn't really a great idea for Mass Effect Andromeda either since this is the start of what should have/could have been a on-going saga. Now though I'm not sure if we will get more Andromeda. Still hoping we do though!