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Post by themikefest on Feb 27, 2017 20:29:39 GMT
I doubt the devs working on this ever handled firearms which is part of the problem. Yep. Look at Shepard shooting at the tube while walking towards it. Shepard has been in the military over 10 years. That's over 10 years of training and experience. Including using weapons. Shepard would have a good idea of what the effective range is for the pistol in her/his hand. So it makes no sense for Shepard to shoot at the tube while walking towards it instead of shooting the tube from a distance.
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Post by ComingOfShadows on Feb 27, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
That's because it is nitpicking based on little context. Using a promotional photo for justification is scraping the barrel. That's a design aimed for marketing not for gameplay fidelity. They even outright state that this is not actual gameplay footage. Your comparisons don't even make sense. What does weapon handling in combat have to do with gun safety protocol? Are you referring to sword sheathing and the like? Even then, why are you making a comparison to a game that is almost exclusively all about combat that is also very limited in comparison to MEA? Alrighty ill try and clarify what i mean a bit more with the comparison. Sword fighting isnt exactly accurate in most games, like skyrim and so on. The RPG i mentioned is "attempting" to make the fighting much more accurate to how it actually works, its very very complex, that includes the stances, which are the equivalent to this only with guns more so. They are trying to use actual moves you would use in in a historic fight. I'm not asking for bioware to get way into the equivalent tactical nature of combat like that studio is, or even with proper positions to hold the rifles pistols etc (they dont do things entirely accurately as it is). What im trying to say is, it would not be like a huge deal like that studio(Warhorse) is going through to make as much accurate as possible, merely to simply hold the weapons properly. Thats just one simple but VERY important thing. If you pick up a rifle and arent planning on shooting your buddy in the butt you dont pick up the gun and point it there with your finger on the trigger. Its pretty much obviously a dumb thing to do. I used the comparison of that studio to say its not nearly as hard as one might think to get the basic things right without going to extreme efforts. I guess i didnt explain myself too clearly on that, so im sorry about that. (maybe i still didnt get the analogy across i dont know, it sounds great in my head though). These things stick out to some of us like highlighted lines in text, thats why we notice. So I'd call it more of an obvious error being noticed than nit picking. If i want to get into nit picking, id mention the concept that had everyone talking about how great it is if you can shoot left handed in Andromeda optionally for lefties. The realilty is, if the firearm permits, you should left handed or right handed based on your dominant eye, not hand. Now that is more nit picking in my opinion.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:02:41 GMT
What contexts are you referring to exactly?
Gameplay footage has been almost exclusively in combat.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:04:45 GMT
I doubt the devs working on this ever handled firearms which is part of the problem. Yep. Look at Shepard shooting at the tube while walking towards it. Shepard has been in the military over 10 years. That's over 10 years of training and experience. Including using weapons. Shepard would have a good idea of what the effective range is for the pistol in her/his hand. So it makes no sense for Shepard to shoot at the tube while walking towards it instead of shooting the tube from a distance. That was clearly for dramatic effect as it was accompanied by flashbacks. People have really got to understand that all of these design decisions are based on multiple factors. Sometimes storytelling supersedes sensibility.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 27, 2017 21:10:10 GMT
Yep. Look at Shepard shooting at the tube while walking towards it. Shepard has been in the military over 10 years. That's over 10 years of training and experience. Including using weapons. Shepard would have a good idea of what the effective range is for the pistol in her/his hand. So it makes no sense for Shepard to shoot at the tube while walking towards it instead of shooting the tube from a distance. That was clearly for dramatic effect as it was accompanied by flashbacks. People have really got to understand that all of these design decisions are based on multiple factors. Sometimes storytelling supersedes sensibility. Storytelling and sensibility do not need to be mutually exclusive. A good writer and cinematographer can suspend disbelief, and they have far less control than video game designers. Ergo, I disagree, and storytelling is how I make my living.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:13:29 GMT
That was clearly for dramatic effect as it was accompanied by flashbacks. People have really got to understand that all of these design decisions are based on multiple factors. Sometimes storytelling supersedes sensibility. Storytelling and sensibility do not need to be mutually exclusive. A good writer and cinematographer can suspend disbelief, and they have far less control than video game designers. Ergo, I disagree, and storytelling is how I make my living. And I've designed video games I never said they are mutually exclusive so I'm not sure what you are quoting here. I just said one may be more important than the other given the context. The point of that "shoot walk" was finality, moving towards the end, and standing still would not be consistent with that theme. Do you disagree on this point? Just because it's not sensible to walk towards the target in a default encounter, doesn't make it sensible for him to not walk towards it given the context of this particular situation from all perspectives, internal (Shepard assumes they will die anyway, and is desperate enough to destroy it with their own hands if the gun doesn't work) or external (dramatic effect of movement during flashbacks)
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 27, 2017 21:34:15 GMT
What you said, "moving towards the end", could have been handled cinematic without walking. Close-up on Shepard, see the hesitation, see the hitch, and then the arm raises slowly <he is on the edge of dying, literally, and if he wasn't half cyborg he'd already be dead>, close-up on the trigger finger, muzzle flare, then the colored tube disappoints everyone anyway. There is always a way to keep it real. It takes more effort, more experience, more skill, but it can be done. You have three options, when making a project. Do you want it cheap, fast, or good? You only get to choose two. Choose wisely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 21:36:41 GMT
Its important to remember that gun safety is probably a bit different in the future. Weapons dont work like the ones you and I would use. Plus I imagine 99% of the player base doesn't care sooo...meh. I dunno, it usually bothers me too but never enough to break the immersion. Never pointing a weapon at anything you aren't prepared to shoot will never change. It's a very basic part of the professional handling of firearms. So with that said I do think the original post is a legitimate gripe. While there are certainly many more pressing concerns, weapons being holstered outside of combat would make the game more immersive. I'd rather not see the protagonist approach some non-threatening NPC to initiate a conversation, while pointing a gun in the person's face.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 27, 2017 21:37:08 GMT
That was clearly for dramatic effect as it was accompanied by flashbacks. People have really got to understand that all of these design decisions are based on multiple factors. Sometimes storytelling supersedes sensibility. Is that the same reason you would give for why no one ran towards the beam after Harbinger flew away? While Shepard is walking towards the beam, voices can be heard over the comms saying fallback, retreat, regroup. Why? Did nobody see the giant reaper fly away? Did they all suffer from temporary blindness? Or why didn't Anderson get on the comms to tell everyone to get to the beam since the reaper flew away? He did say, at the fob, no stepping back, no retreat, we move forward at all cost. Maybe it was setup that way so Anderson and Shepard could have that touchy-feely scene.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:44:01 GMT
What you said, "moving towards the end", could have been handled cinematic without walking. Close-up on Shepard, see the hesitation, see the hitch, and then the arm raises slowly <he is on the edge of dying, literally, and if he wasn't half cyborg he'd already be dead>, close-up on the trigger finger, muzzle flare, then the colored tube disappoints everyone anyway. I'm just going to ignore the condescension towards the developers so don't bother with that stuff What you described is a potential approach that you think is more appropriate, but you are not mentioning the flashbacks. Where would they fit in? It is rather apparent that you are focusing on the act of shooting itself, as you are describing individual frames of that shooting. Rather than focus on the frames of the shooting, they opted for flashbacks and in between them they had Shepard moving forward and finishing the job no matter what. You're just giving an alternative without considering the entirety of the context here. They could have theoretically just made Shepard stand still and perhaps adjusted the angle or something in between flashbacks, but what purpose would that serve really? This is argument for the sake of it.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:45:07 GMT
Its important to remember that gun safety is probably a bit different in the future. Weapons dont work like the ones you and I would use. Plus I imagine 99% of the player base doesn't care sooo...meh. I dunno, it usually bothers me too but never enough to break the immersion. Never pointing a weapon at anything you aren't prepared to shoot will never change. It's a very basic part of the professional handling of firearms. So with that said I do think the original post is a legitimate gripe. While there are certainly many more pressing concerns, weapons being holstered outside of combat would make the game more immersive. I'd rather not see the protagonist approach some non-threatening NPC to initiate a conversation, while pointing a gun in the person's face. I agree and I'm glad they implemented this.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:50:41 GMT
Is that the same reason you would give for why no one ran towards the beam after Harbinger flew away? While Shepard is walking towards the beam, voices can be heard over the comms saying fallback, retreat, regroup. Why? Did nobody see the giant reaper fly away? Did they all suffer from temporary blindness? Or why didn't Anderson get on the comms to tell everyone to get to the beam since the reaper flew away? He did say, at the fob, no stepping, no retreat, we move forward at all cost. Maybe it was setup that way so Anderson and Shepard could have that touchy-feely scene. It's been a really long time since I've finished ME3 so I don't remember much of the context of this particular situation. Just by reading the context you provided though, I could say that it would emulate the chaos and confusion of combat. Also, how do you know the reaper flew away completely? I remember that we just see it leaving the screen after (presumably) killing everyone. Perhaps another was approaching? Perhaps a new set of minions were approaching? You can ask many questions. Why focus on one particular situation without taking all possibilities into consideration? In truth, the falling back was there for narrative effect. The player is all alone now and has to move forward after sustaining heavy injuries and almost dying to the final boss, Marauder Shields
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 27, 2017 21:52:18 GMT
It is not argument for argument's sake, and I am glad the condescension towards the developers bothers you lol.
We can break down the entire scene, play-by-play, and we can disagree at the end of it. What I said is not really arguable - they could have done the scene better, with more realism, but they didn't. If that makes the storytelling better for you, well I would say you should consider fantasy as your genre and not SCIENCE FICTION.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 21:58:18 GMT
It is not argument for argument's sake, and I am glad the condescension towards the developers bothers you lol. We can break down the entire scene, play-by-play, and we can disagree at the end of it. What I said is not really arguable - they could have done the scene better, with more realism, but they didn't. If that makes the storytelling better for you, well I would say you should consider fantasy as your genre and not SCIENCE FICTION. You just called Mass Effect fiction. You admit it is not a 1:1 translation of realism then. So apparently we do agree and you're just fixating on one event to argue for the sake of it. I still don't get where the lack of realism comes in. You have not provided sufficient evidence to explain how walking towards the target in this particular situation would not be sensible beyond a description by another poster stating protocol in a normal encounter when this particular situation is anything but normal.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 27, 2017 22:05:41 GMT
It is not argument for argument's sake, and I am glad the condescension towards the developers bothers you lol. We can break down the entire scene, play-by-play, and we can disagree at the end of it. What I said is not really arguable - they could have done the scene better, with more realism, but they didn't. If that makes the storytelling better for you, well I would say you should consider fantasy as your genre and not SCIENCE FICTION. You just called Mass Effect fiction. You admit it is not a 1:1 translation of realism then. So apparently we do agree and you're just fixating on one event to argue for the sake of it. I still don't get where the lack of realism comes in. You have not provided sufficient evidence of not walking towards the target in this particular situation would not be sensible Did I need to? I was pretty sure the reasoning was provided on page 1, when the original poster complaining about the walking towards the target was not how a real gunfighter would use his weapon. There was literally no need to close any distance, and walking adds difficulty to your aiming.... if you want to hit your target, and you can set up your shot, you do, so that you do not miss. Yes, there is a reason why the specific sub-group of fiction writing, that deals with things in a more grounded and at least theoretically sensible-realistic-possible way, is called science fiction. You can google the definition if you don't like my loose example.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 27, 2017 22:14:57 GMT
Did I need to? I was pretty sure the reasoning was provided on page 1, when the original poster complaining about the walking towards the target was not how a real gunfighter would use his weapon. There was literally no need to close any distance, and walking adds difficulty to your aiming.... if you want to hit your target, and you can set up your shot, you do, so that you do not miss. Yes, there is a reason why the specific sub-group of fiction writing, that deals with things in a more grounded and at least theoretically sensible-realistic-possible way, is called science fiction. You can google the definition if you don't like my loose example. Again, you are applying a protocol used to describe a normal encounter to that of one that is not typical. I could give you a reason why Shepard moved towards the target. Perhaps the gun would not work and Shepard would have to interact with it manually. Wouldn't he need to approach it? It's not a living target and there is no inherent threat. Are you also using aim as a justification? It's a light weapon and Shepard has had years of experience. It's also a large immobile target. Do you really think Shepard would miss? I have provided several situations which would deem it sensible. How about that? In the end, they are all irrelevant, because the POINT that this SCENE is trying to CONVEY is FINALITY. There was music, flashback, cutscenes, and all sorts of other signaling, and you are choosing to fixate on this particular facet. I am sorry. Your arguments are weak. If you want to argue "how much fiction is fiction" then go right ahead. The point is that this is a video game and given that Mass Effect is a narrative, sometimes what makes sense in the real world is not as relevant as to what makes sense in the setting.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 27, 2017 22:34:55 GMT
My arguments are weak. The Lebanese dude has spoken.
I do love Lebanese food, so you're not all bad.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 27, 2017 22:41:50 GMT
It is not argument for argument's sake, and I am glad the condescension towards the developers bothers you lol. We can break down the entire scene, play-by-play, and we can disagree at the end of it. What I said is not really arguable - they could have done the scene better, with more realism, but they didn't. If that makes the storytelling better for you, well I would say you should consider fantasy as your genre and not SCIENCE FICTION. I'm not sure I agree that what you argue for is better. Or even more logical. Remember Shep is at the end of his/her life here. Hit by Harbinger's beam, stumbling through the whole ending sequence. He/she's got blood-loss, a concision, probably blurry vision. It makes sense then that he/she would, with his/her dying steps, ensure he/she hits the target that is fading in and out of his/her vision by walking forward and shooting it. So what you argue for is different, and certainly not worse, but I don't think you can say at all that it is better. That's completely subjective and I actually prefer his stumbling forward.
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Post by ravenous on Feb 27, 2017 23:06:54 GMT
Honestly I do not care at all about this minor detail, I have way more concerns about this game then something so minor
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Post by Cypher on Feb 27, 2017 23:07:40 GMT
This isn't Rainbow Six, Arma, or even Metal Gear Solid, so I don't care.
edit: But let me amend this because it did annoy the shit out of me that no one held SMG's correctly, so I understand why it bothers people.
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 27, 2017 23:40:29 GMT
Wouldn't have minded if they were a ragtag group of pirates or anarchists or militia, but when they are former cops and soldiers....that gets iffy.
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Post by SKAR on Feb 28, 2017 0:09:01 GMT
I really don't care.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 0:57:12 GMT
It is not argument for argument's sake, and I am glad the condescension towards the developers bothers you lol. We can break down the entire scene, play-by-play, and we can disagree at the end of it. What I said is not really arguable - they could have done the scene better, with more realism, but they didn't. If that makes the storytelling better for you, well I would say you should consider fantasy as your genre and not SCIENCE FICTION. More realism would not have utilized a weapon of any type to trigger the crucible device regardless of the decision made. It should have been simply select button A, B, or C. Really, who boots up a computer by firing a few slugs into it and it's certainly not the way anyone normally detonates a bomb or sets off an EMP.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Feb 28, 2017 1:00:24 GMT
This isn't Rainbow Six, Arma, or even Metal Gear Solid, so I don't care. edit: But let me amend this because it did annoy the shit out of me that no one held SMG's correctly, so I understand why it bothers people. I haven't been keeping up with the latest gameplay footage, can we hold SMG's the correct way now? Using the forward grip with the supporting hand?
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Post by Cypher on Feb 28, 2017 1:49:06 GMT
This isn't Rainbow Six, Arma, or even Metal Gear Solid, so I don't care. edit: But let me amend this because it did annoy the shit out of me that no one held SMG's correctly, so I understand why it bothers people. I haven't been keeping up with the latest gameplay footage, can we hold SMG's the correct way now? Using the forward grip with the supporting hand? Correct. You only see it briefly, but Sara grabs the Tempest/Charger by the ammo block for support in the combat trailer after placing the proximity mine. Her hand actually shifts from an underbarrel support grip to holding the ammo block, which was a nice touch.
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