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Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2017 17:01:50 GMT
Are you nitpicky folks worth appeasing? I dont think an uncinematic Dialogue Camera in a Dialoge heavy Game is a nitpick. I think most of us hated it in DA:I .. How much of a Problem it is(if at all) will totally depend on how much it is used. As i said before if its just some Minor Planet Side Quest here and there i think we all will be fine with it. Nobody though wants that when talking to Companions ever again i think.. Perhaps, but I was agreeing with linkenski's observation that a substantial number of players (we don't know the percentages) don't really care about this. If a feature is relatively costly, and a lot of players don't care about it, at some point it fails the ROI check.
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Post by aard on Mar 4, 2017 17:07:17 GMT
I dont think an uncinematic Dialogue Camera in a Dialoge heavy Game is a nitpick. I think most of us hated it in DA:I .. How much of a Problem it is(if at all) will totally depend on how much it is used. As i said before if its just some Minor Planet Side Quest here and there i think we all will be fine with it. Nobody though wants that when talking to Companions ever again i think.. Perhaps, but I was agreeing with linkenski's observation that a substantial number of players (we don't know the percentages) don't really care about this. If a feature is relatively costly, and a lot of players don't care about it, at some point it fails the ROI check. This is correct.. yet i cant get my head around that in a RPG like Dragon Age or Mass Effect a sizeable Portion of Players would not care about the execution of Dialogue.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 4, 2017 17:14:48 GMT
Exactly. We're spending so much time doing exactly that, and if more than half of it is done via very conservative dialogue modes that neither convey emotion nor visually interesting content, then the dialogue has to be really good to make up for it, but it just pales in comparison to the way it was done in ME2 where it was consistently a real cinematic conversation if it was a dialogue and not if it was either A: During a combat segment or B: an NPC who just makes a "comment".
If I could decide how the game would work with a magic spell I would keep the "Press V/R/R3 to choose dialogue response" mechanic that DA:I had during gameplay segments -- that neatly engaged you in interactive dialogue whilist being busy with gameplay or exploration as opposed to just standing in place and listening as you don't really know where to look because there's nothing interesting happening in terms of visual information, and then I would make every other dialogue like in ME2. It's impossible unless you're a developer in poland with the Budget of Witcher 3 and limiting the branching dialogue to a lot of auto-responses, but that's why I keep saying "scale it back down". DA:I was way bigger than big enough already. I want the content inside the scope to be richer rather than I want decreased richness of content with an increased quantity of it. All you end up with in the latter approach is a bloated play-time (which is good for EA and producers because it gives good statistics you can brag about) but unmemorable or dissatisfying impressions while in the former you'll get a game people love to talk about in detail and eventually an extended playtime from people replaying the games a lot.
When it came to overall game breadth ME1 and ME2, as well as 3 were perfect. ME3 was a little bloated due to trying to forcibly account for every ME2 character's whereabouts but ultimately the length and pacing of those games are fantastic for an RPG and DA:I is the exact opposite, hence the critcisms. You do not want people to get tired of their game before they stop playing it if it is a story driven RPG that a good portion bought because they wanted a good story.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 4, 2017 17:35:29 GMT
Who gives a fuck, that was the least of DA:I's problems. No it was a pretty big issue. In total you'd spent a huge amount of time in those types of conversations and none of them had any special gesturing or poses. Zaeed in ME2 actually poses like a character would during a cutscene despite it not using cinematography at all, but in DA:I they all just wave their right hand the entire conversation and Inquisitor stands in a really awkward pose completely stiff. I hope they added at least some variety, becuase we will spent several hours in total in this dialogue-mode. People sure have a rosy memory of Zaeed and Kasumi's interactions in ME2, because I recall them being considerably worse. They had cutscenes in their specific missions, but so did all of the companions in Inquisition. Outside of recruitment and loyalty, they stayed put and spoke in a similar distant view, but with absolutely no dialogue exchange. You just get a bunch of different lines out of them while they sat or stood there.
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Post by ruffian on Mar 4, 2017 17:43:11 GMT
I'm fine with it if they're only using it for non-critical dialogue during quests. I'll be really unimpressed if they use it for 90% of squad- and crewmate dialogue like they did in Inquisition though.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 4, 2017 18:24:01 GMT
No it was a pretty big issue. In total you'd spent a huge amount of time in those types of conversations and none of them had any special gesturing or poses. Zaeed in ME2 actually poses like a character would during a cutscene despite it not using cinematography at all, but in DA:I they all just wave their right hand the entire conversation and Inquisitor stands in a really awkward pose completely stiff. I hope they added at least some variety, becuase we will spent several hours in total in this dialogue-mode. People sure have a rosy memory of Zaeed and Kasumi's interactions in ME2, because I recall them being considerably worse. They had cutscenes in their specific missions, but so did all of the companions in Inquisition. Outside of recruitment and loyalty, they stayed put and spoke in a similar distant view, but with absolutely no dialogue exchange. You just get a bunch of different lines out of them while they sat or stood there. And thank god there was no dialogue exchange because it would've been a waste to have when they were already non-cinematic. That's my viewpoint on that. Watching Shepard from his back as he stretches ever 5 seconds in ME3 and you could netiher get a look at Garrus nor his face as they talk on autopilot with no interaction -- biggest sin of that game IMO. Zaeed and Kasumi perfectly communicate the fact that they're both afterthoughts as Normandy conversation characters, and yet felt more interactive because their limited design required only the press of a button to make them "talk" and that mechanic repeated itself. In ME3 you'd have several minutes of dialogue with zero input from the player and nothing showing me that I was supposed to watch or listen to any of it. You could just lollygag around in Garrus's main weapon room or sprint while they talk as if they're supposed to be having a conversation. In ME3 that design blended into the actual conversations which simply meant we weren't allowed to build our relationships ourselves. We could only participate from afar. I felt like I wasn't part of any conversation Shepard had with Garrus or Liara or whoever that wasn't in cinematics in ME3 because of the distant cinematography that is free-camera view in third person. If it was some attempt at making it more "immersive" or like Half Life 2, well, then it utterly failed because you can't do those types of "real-time, emergent" conversations in third person view when everything is out of focus from the player's perspective.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 4, 2017 18:43:04 GMT
There's something wrong with that? I think it's lovely! I know it's not in your face cutscenes, but it's not the same engine and some things need to be cut to add more, and this is pretty insignificant in the greater scheme of things. No, this is NOT a good thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 18:57:33 GMT
There's something wrong with that? I think it's lovely! I know it's not in your face cutscenes, but it's not the same engine and some things need to be cut to add more, and this is pretty insignificant in the greater scheme of things. No, this is NOT a good thing. *shrugs *It's not the end of the world to me. I just want to play the game and not pick apart every pointless flaw that doesn't even affect me.
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Post by aard on Mar 4, 2017 19:23:14 GMT
I respect that some think otherwise but i dont get how the Quality of Dialogue delivery in a RPG can be a pointless flaw.
Dialogue in a Story heavy RPG is maybe THE single most Important thing to me and the whole Game suffers when it is not done well.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Mar 4, 2017 19:59:03 GMT
I am not a fan of it but if it has to be done that way for some conversations for technical reasons I can live with it.
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Post by elanor on Mar 4, 2017 20:34:31 GMT
Oh frack, I hated it in Inqusition. It ruined immersion for me. I hoped that I won't see this ever again. I definitely prefer ME1-3 style. I really hope it's only for minor conversation. You guys have to notice everything. I was pefectly happy with my unconsciousness.
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Post by ClarkKent on Mar 4, 2017 21:30:57 GMT
My heart actually sunk when I saw that. My least favourite aspect of DAI.
Utterly kills any desire for me to replay that game.
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Post by lieb38 on Mar 4, 2017 21:51:30 GMT
Disappointed: Not a good news for me. But the worst thing about this in DAI was the loop animation of the NPCs. These kind of dialogues were loop animation+moving lips, total immersion braking for me.
Hopeful: Maybe this kind of dialogue will be less use for MEA and/or more polished.
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Post by ssanyesz on Mar 4, 2017 22:07:13 GMT
Who gives a fuck, that was the least of DA:I's problems. To me, it was actually it's second biggest problem, after the empty areas and lack of interesting sidequests. It made the conversations significantly less engaging. If I want to play a game where the characters are virtually motionless and I can't see their faces and reactions, I'll play something like Torment where they can have significantly more dialogue. This bastardized hybrid where the conversations have neither the engagement of cinematic storytelling nor the depth of a text-only approach is a horrible choice for a game that focuses on character interaction and storytelling. Being unable to see even the rudimentary expressions of game characters makes it harder to connect with them and engage with the stories. Leave this style to games like Skyrim and Fallout, where all the characters are flat anyway, and they aren't one of the main foci of the game. Are we absolutely sure that's what is going on here though? It could be a situation where the camera zooms in while the Krogan is speaking to you, but isn't actually a conversation. No sense worrying about something if we aren't even sure it's the case. Already did that with the combat/active ability thing, and that turned out fine. It's like Bioware forget in what areas they can excel, and they wanted to be some other company. In SWTOR even the smallest NPCs got cinematic cutscenes and dialogs, whatever simplistic quality they had, at least they were there. And that is BioWare game's characteristic. Still like that game even today, better than DAI.
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Post by Nonoru on Mar 4, 2017 22:12:44 GMT
I'm part of those who thought DAI made an unhealthy use of this, however I was only annoyed that it applied to companions. I think your squadmates deserve more than the NPC treatment. Even if it's secondary dialogues.
If it's exclusively used on the field or in hubs, I don't mind it.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Mar 4, 2017 22:16:12 GMT
I hated it in DAI. I was always trying to get a closer look at people's faces. And basically no one was memorable because I never saw them up close enough. If it is like that again that is a huge mistake.
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Post by midnightwolf on Mar 4, 2017 22:17:35 GMT
I hope there isn't too much of it. I didn't like the zoomed out cam in DAI, and I'd point to it as something that significantly affected my enjoyment of the game overall. Agreed. When my character is chatting with someone, I like to be able to see their faces damn it! Disappointing Bioware, really disappointing.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 4, 2017 23:59:32 GMT
I hated it in DAI. I was always trying to get a closer look at people's faces. And basically no one was memorable because I never saw them up close enough. If it is like that again that is a huge mistake. The zoom is better now. There was a PC mod for Inquisition that also zoomed it in right behind the shoulder of Inquisitor and that made it better.
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Post by alihou on Mar 5, 2017 6:57:15 GMT
Come on Bioware... Witcher 3 pulled Cinematic dialog for ALL conversations, that game came out 2 years ago. Don't wanna be that guy, but Witcher 3 set the bar for how RPG's are to be made whether you're a fan of the game or not. It's kind of a big deal to me, this is a ps4 title only. DAI had old gen to worry about, so I gave them a pass. This shouldn't be happening in Andromeda. I have my expectations really high that they deliver a full AAA experience, to hear this kinda bugs me.
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Post by malakizedek on Mar 5, 2017 7:20:31 GMT
Come on Bioware... Witcher 3 pulled Cinematic dialog for ALL conversations, that game came out 2 years ago. Don't wanna be that guy, but Witcher 3 set the bar for how RPG's are to be made whether you're a fan of the game or not. It's kind of a big deal to me, this is a ps4 title only. DAI had old gen to worry about, so I gave them a pass. This shouldn't be happening in Andromeda. I have my expectations really high that they deliver a full AAA experience, to hear this kinda bugs me. Yeah, the Witcher 3 pretty much spoiled me rotten and ruined any other RPG for the near future. That game was incredible. If I had been able to choose to play as male/female and customize my character and had more dialogue options, like Bioware games, it would have been the best game of all time (actually, it still might be despite the lack of those options) Anyway, Bioware has had 5 years to develop MEA. There's really no excuse for this type of lazy shortcut to dialogue. The budget for MEA is comparable to Witcher 3 and CD Projekt Red created the Wither 3 in about half the time it took to develop MEA (granted, it had a bigger development team but STILL). We SHOULD hold MEA to the highest possible standard. Nothing wrong comparing it to the Witcher. Bioware should strive to improve their games, not cut corners.
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Post by disi on Mar 5, 2017 8:20:35 GMT
Even in Baldurs Gate titles you got a face to the conversations Torchlight has this style of conversations, seems they set the new standard.
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Post by Rhidor on Mar 5, 2017 12:19:13 GMT
That's what i feared for the most. With no cutscenes to support the sidequests, the characters appearing were barely memorable.
If it had to return I hope that they don't do that leaning-forward-crossing-hands animation anymore.
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Post by elanor on Mar 5, 2017 14:29:42 GMT
Maybe it's optional? For action mode version or something. Should I dare to hope?
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 14:40:54 GMT
I'm going to yell.
THE ZOOMED OUT DIALOGUE CAM WAS THE MOSY OFFENSIVE, EXPERIENCE-RUINING PART OF INQUISITION.
I am going to be so mad if it's the same shit
How do they not understand? How do they not have the budget to make cutscenes? They made the cut scenes in the original trilogy. They're starting out as legends. All these other games (I'm not gonna say
alright. I'll say it
Tw3)
have the cutscenes
Why
Why tf
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 14:43:26 GMT
Immersion is already ruined :'( automatically
why
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