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Post by Revan Reborn on Mar 5, 2017 14:58:12 GMT
I'm going to yell. THE ZOOMED OUT DIALOGUE CAM WAS THE MOSY OFFENSIVE, EXPERIENCE-RUINING PART OF INQUISITION. I am going to be so mad if it's the same shit How do they not understand? How do they not have the budget to make cutscenes? They made the cut scenes in the original trilogy. They're starting out as legends. All these other games (I'm not gonna say alright. I'll say it Tw3) have the cutscenes Why Why tf The original trilogy actually had some dialogue sequences that did not have cut scenes: It's also worth pointing out that MEA is larger than the entirety of the Mass Effect trilogy and apparently the smallest planet is larger than all of DAI. The Critical Path is supposed to require approximately 15-20 hours, while the rest of the game can take up to 100 hours to finish. That's easily double (if not more) time investment than any of the previous Mass Effect games. Game development costs increase exponentially every year and BioWare has to split a budget between its three studios (Edmonton, Montreal, and Austin). I'd love if everything could have cut scenes, but it's just not realistic or feasible. At the very least, hopefully none of the companion dialogue and the major side quest content will be relegated to the "DAI-Style dialogue camera."
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Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 15:17:46 GMT
Proportion and placement. Tali drinking at the bar was a nice humorous addition to the environment, not a quest or story-additive. Also, while the Citadel had zoomed-out fetch quests, the main story had so many tightly-crafted missions with cut scenes, it didn't dilute the experience.
Inquisition's main story, companion side quests and everything were weak all around. Adding hundreds of zoomed-out fetch quests with cyclically-animated NPCs only exacerbated the crap feel
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kali073
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Post by kali073 on Mar 5, 2017 15:23:01 GMT
I gotta say, I dislike nitpicking and value good criticism, but this pan camera in DA:I made me throw up my insides. To simply put it, it profoundly devalued conversations by not letting my see characters emotions and made interactions lifeless and dull. So I'm quite disappointed it seems to be making a return. I'd rather have less dialogue but more profound and interesting interactions with characters. That said, the panning looks better implemented than in DA:I so it maybe not as bad. I'd like to really see it in action before making any complete judgement. So, you'd rather get all your side-quests via data-pads, emails and terminal hacks. Obtaining a side-quest is, quite often, a "lifeless" dialogue anyways. I don't see a need to give them first-class cinematics at the expense of more emotive dialogues where the PC makes actual dialogue choices. From what I've seen, there are plenty of close cutscenes with dialogue wheels or when something emotive is being said. Obviously the conversations shown are just directional - directing us to a side-quest or just letting us through a door. Unless people start showing instances where this is being used during emotive and important conversations, I'm not going to start getting upset about it. I'd rather overhear someone than have to pretend to covertly hack a terminal in someone's office (like in Palin's office in ME1) to get a side mission. Frankly, with how zoomed out the camera was, a datapad or email would have about the same emotional impact. Some people seem to think we're nitpicky for disliking the DAI camera but for us (ok, for me) it's not a nitpicky issue, it's a major problem. It seriously hampered my enjoyment of the game. That said, I understand not every quest can have a cinematic in a game as big as DAI or MEA. It's too expensive. My issue with the DAI camera wasn't primarily "it's not cinematics" but "it's so zoomed out I can barely see the characters' faces". If this GIF posted is an example MEA seems to have an improved version if it's the same camera and I'm feeling moderately hopeful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 15:49:21 GMT
So, you'd rather get all your side-quests via data-pads, emails and terminal hacks. Obtaining a side-quest is, quite often, a "lifeless" dialogue anyways. I don't see a need to give them first-class cinematics at the expense of more emotive dialogues where the PC makes actual dialogue choices. From what I've seen, there are plenty of close cutscenes with dialogue wheels or when something emotive is being said. Obviously the conversations shown are just directional - directing us to a side-quest or just letting us through a door. Unless people start showing instances where this is being used during emotive and important conversations, I'm not going to start getting upset about it. I'd rather overhear someone than have to pretend to covertly hack a terminal in someone's office (like in Palin's office in ME1) to get a side mission. Frankly, with how zoomed out the camera was, a datapad or email would have about the same emotional impact. Some people seem to think we're nitpicky for disliking the DAI camera but for us (ok, for me) it's not a nitpicky issue, it's a major problem. It seriously hampered my enjoyment of the game. That said, I understand not every quest can have a cinematic in a game as big as DAI or MEA. It's too expensive. My issue with the DAI camera wasn't primarily "it's not cinematics" but "it's so zoomed out I can barely see the characters' faces". If this GIF posted is an example MEA seems to have an improved version if it's the same camera and I'm feeling moderately hopeful. I don't play DA:I, so my info is third-hand... but my understanding was that it was overused in DA:I... possibly because of budget and resources being used to accommodate the variety of PCs that could be played in that game. I still don't see a good reason to flip over a couple of shots in ME:A though that probably involved two very inconsequential conversations. From what I've seen (e.g. first 13 minutes), this is not going to be used in primary conversations in ME:A... they've gone with traditional cutscenes for those. For sidequest acquisition, I prefer the camera angle seen here to just finding a datapad or terminal (a la ME1). How much of each we get, I'm sure is a question of resources - money/budget and demands on the computer itself. ME:A, at least, is rid of the old-gen consoles, so that should mean they can make more demands on the computing power than they could before; and hopefully, they have enough budget going towards developing more and better core conversations in the game.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2017 17:14:26 GMT
DA:I's non-cine dialogue was there for the same reasons as it was in ME3. It's a system that does not require handcrafted camera work for every conversation so they could spend that budget on the actual cutscenes and special conversations instead. Unlike ME3 there was actually dialogue wheels and a camera that at least focused on the conversation between the two characters and not a completely detached dialogue while Shepard can run around and the player never getting to choose responses.
It was an improvement over ME3 for sure, it was still just a downgrade from ME2 and DA2 that always featured dialogue branches in cinematic scenes and otherwise relegated the spoken dialogue to one-line comments or banter.
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Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 19:05:20 GMT
I mean.. the worst part of Inquisition was the fact that we traveled hundreds of miles to these far-flung entire regions that are so huge, and then when you get there, besides Scout Harding, it's all zoomed-out NPCs.
I didn't come all the way to this magnificent Storm Coast area that seems rich with history and mystery to talk to Scout Harding. I didn't travel hundreds, thousands? of miles to see Scout Harding.
I don't know of a single cut scene in the Storm Coast, honestly. The central issue there - the Blades of Hessarian? Possibly the red templars' cavern and dock? - all treated with zoomed-out cam.
The Dragon Age team built this incredible lore and this incredible world, with a stunning hidden villain and story, and they fuckin insulted it, and trashed it all with the disrespectful treatment of zoomed-out cameras and cyclical NPCs.
It feels like a huge waste, that's what it is. It's outrageous.
Cinematic treatment means you respect the story and characters and assets you've designed, because that's what a cinematic camera is - it's a tool to draw attention to the subject of your choosing and to engage the audience closely with something you, as game creator, deem important. Because that is how we in this century and society have been trained to engage with anything at all in all media. The camera is important.
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Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 19:06:16 GMT
It was not a small issue for me, and many other gamers who might not have spoken up.
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Addictress
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 19:10:20 GMT
And just... on a meta level, it's torture. It's torture because on paper, Witcher 3's story and lore aren't even that intriguing. They certainly aren't as interesting as Bioware's lore - the blight, the reapers.... damnit... Bioware's lore is better than any of them. That's why I keep clinging to Bioware games.
CDPR....story is good, ok, it's well-executed, and most importantly, it uses CUT SCENE CAMERAS to draw your attention to their stories and possibly deceive you into thinking the story is even greater than it really is, but honestly I could find monsters and witches anywhere any time of the goddamn day.
And then Bioware just goes around and tortures me by forcing me to watch their amazing stories through shitty zoomed-out cameras.
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Addictress
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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Post by Addictress on Mar 5, 2017 19:10:59 GMT
STOP TORTURING ME 2017
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 6, 2017 17:25:03 GMT
I hate cinematic dialogue, and I support any feature that diminishes it.
DAI's non-cinematic dialogue was brilliant. I wish all the dialogue were like that.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Mar 6, 2017 19:36:17 GMT
Fantastic. One of the main issues that made DAI seem like an offline mmo is present in andromeda. Golly, most people playing RPGs today like the cinematic aspect of dialogues, if they didn't then isometric games would still be popular instead of being niche. Guess Bioware knows what's good for us, for a second time.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Mar 6, 2017 19:53:28 GMT
Come on Bioware... Witcher 3 pulled Cinematic dialog for ALL conversations, that game came out 2 years ago. Don't wanna be that guy, but Witcher 3 set the bar for how RPG's are to be made whether you're a fan of the game or not. It's kind of a big deal to me, this is a ps4 title only. DAI had old gen to worry about, so I gave them a pass. This shouldn't be happening in Andromeda. I have my expectations really high that they deliver a full AAA experience, to hear this kinda bugs me. Yeah, the Witcher 3 pretty much spoiled me rotten and ruined any other RPG for the near future. That game was incredible. If I had been able to choose to play as male/female and customize my character and had more dialogue options, like Bioware games, it would have been the best game of all time (actually, it still might be despite the lack of those options) Anyway, Bioware has had 5 years to develop MEA. There's really no excuse for this type of lazy shortcut to dialogue. The budget for MEA is comparable to Witcher 3 and CD Projekt Red created the Wither 3 in about half the time it took to develop MEA (granted, it had a bigger development team but STILL). We SHOULD hold MEA to the highest possible standard. Nothing wrong comparing it to the Witcher. Bioware should strive to improve their games, not cut corners. >implying that Bioware doesn't just want to milk the franchise
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vit246
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Post by vit246 on Mar 8, 2017 3:46:57 GMT
Quoting myself from another thread.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 8, 2017 3:59:49 GMT
Uggh, the faces don't even look good when it zooms in in this game. I'm also a bit worried there's no dialogue wheel but maybe that's a good thing, if it means zoom-conversations are only informative comment thingies and there'll be actual conversations elsewhere.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2017 4:24:54 GMT
I don't know of a single cut scene in the Storm Coast, honestly. The central issue there - the Blades of Hessarian? Possibly the red templars' cavern and dock? - all treated with zoomed-out cam. The Iron Bull's recruitment and personal mission had cutscenes, actually. You should sub in the Exalted Plains or Emerald Graves.
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Post by Fredward on Mar 8, 2017 4:34:45 GMT
Meh, as long as it remains primarily centered around irrelevant characters/side quests it's not a huge deal for me.
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danishgambit
N3
A master of his game
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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A master of his game
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Post by danishgambit on Mar 8, 2017 7:20:25 GMT
The camera made me less interested in what the characters had to say. The normal cinematic camera with a quit button to stop convos would've been so much better.
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