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Post by stealthfox94 on Mar 9, 2017 20:08:08 GMT
People acknowledge other people just fine without having it smashed against our faces while they say look how progressive we are, people don't care about any sexuality, gender or where the hell you come from, what they want is a good character, but as soon as the character is badly written and people criticize it some loudmouths change it around and make it sound like they have an issue with the characters skin color or gender. Some are worried about devlopers pandering because some have, the baulders gate expansion that was done awhile back people didn't like the bugs that made the game unplayable or there was the one transcharacter that was in it and people didn't have issues with the fact that they were trans but rather they were badly written and only there to basicly say here I am i'm a trans character look at me, rather then making a well fleshed out character that had a rich backstory who happened to be trans. Marvel pandered to the politically correct crowed and their sales started to plumted not because thor or ironman we replaced by women but because they were badly written into it, thor was a name not a title but they magicly said 'hey lets change that for no reason and make the next thor a woman". Or with ironheart where the teenager was just suddenly smarter then Tony stark. Pandering is dangerous because if you add them in just for the sake of adding them then your left with an empty shell and no substance. I think the following video explains my position on this matter better than I myself ever could, so if you find the time I recommend you watch it.
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Post by darcon on Mar 9, 2017 20:13:28 GMT
People acknowledge other people just fine without having it smashed against our faces while they say look how progressive we are, people don't care about any sexuality, gender or where the hell you come from, what they want is a good character, but as soon as the character is badly written and people criticize it some loudmouths change it around and make it sound like they have an issue with the characters skin color or gender. Some are worried about devlopers pandering because some have, the baulders gate expansion that was done awhile back people didn't like the bugs that made the game unplayable or there was the one transcharacter that was in it and people didn't have issues with the fact that they were trans but rather they were badly written and only there to basicly say here I am i'm a trans character look at me, rather then making a well fleshed out character that had a rich backstory who happened to be trans. Marvel pandered to the politically correct crowed and their sales started to plumted not because thor or ironman we replaced by women but because they were badly written into it, thor was a name not a title but they magicly said 'hey lets change that for no reason and make the next thor a woman". Or with ironheart where the teenager was just suddenly smarter then Tony stark. Pandering is dangerous because if you add them in just for the sake of adding them then your left with an empty shell and no substance. I think the following video explains my position on this matter better than I myself ever could, so if you find the time I recommend you watch it. I will note that I didn't know that the character was so flat (my own fault there) but I will point out that while people were critizing the game for other reasons the opposite side was pushing the idea that the game was hated because of that one character.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 9, 2017 20:16:44 GMT
Well considering BW are full of SJWs and even hires racists developers like Manveer Heir ME A is probably going to have that stuff. Still got the game but... What can you do... And by SJW I mean people who put shit like this in games: You see....that doesn't bother me like at all. I get that it doesn't really fit the theme though. This coming from someone who's pretty religious and conservative. So, you decide whether it bugs/offends you based on what it is vs who you are as a person? That's not my issue with the SJW-ness in BioWare games. To me it's about honesty and I guess authenticity. You can tell that sometimes, prime example would be Patrick Weekes, is desperate to write characters to represent groups of people he isn't part of himself. Part of that isn't bad, but writers are usually at their best when they really mean what they write, so if he empathises a lot and finds a lot of narrative merit in representing more genders and sexes, more power to him but sometimes his, and BioWare's bias towards making everyone feel comfortable and welcome hurts the narrative when the writing choices become political for the sake of not treading on anyone's toes. You can't even have characters commenting about race, I bet. That's a big internal "no-no!!" at the studio, when exactly themes such as racism, albeit with aliens, was such an important theme in the first game. They're holding themselves back to avoid the comments they'd get from transgender people attending their cons and basically threatening while going "I'm glad you wrote Krem - a transgender character who isn't either disgusting nor a monster." and granted their examples in DA2 were maybe a tad rude (a woman NPC with a deep man voice for laughs) but the fact that they're writing Krem because of that irks me. The fact that Patrick Weekes got so invested from speaking to the needy fans that attend cons and then decided to go to a Transgender bar to research for Krem and god knows if that's the biggest RL research he ever did while writing at BW... for representing a character just so the game could be "progressive. I actually highly respect what David Gaider (former lead writer of Dragon Age) wrote here recently, on Twitter: Not to twist his words here - he was actually talking about this in relation to the statement that games need to have socio-intellectual relevance in their content in order to be useful vs being mindless time-wasters while "people are dying somewhere in the world" and Gaider adamantly said he strongly disliked this notion for saying that games cannot be escapism, and in another tweet specifically said he didn't want games to be solely rated based on their ability to be progressive. This by extension is how I feel about the representation thing, but unfortunately (for me, but not to others) BioWare realized at some point that they had opened the floodgates. They were making RPGs where the first choice is about representation for your player avatar. Male, female and then later a romance option that was exclusive to whichever representation you chose. This led to criticism, because we had choice but several minorities had been locked out and ostracized from the concept. At first BioWare defended this, saying that Male Shepard as they saw him was heterosexual in ME1 www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/02/08/bioware-shepherd-is-heterosexual-by-choice/1 which obviously came across as "We have decided that the game we've made is for US, the heterosexual men ((and some women))" which led to a lot of angry internet-goers from all sides and slowly but steadily, tadaa, we got Dragon Age Wonderland Inquisition almost as a biproduct of synthesis which was already a big load of "everybody should be equal" crap. I don't care how many toes I'm treading on when I speak for myself but say life is too short to compromise with every type of person you meet - I for one do not care for the increasingly excessive amount of development priority put into representing more and more sexual subgroups. Same goes for feminism and the sometimes forced "Strong female protgaonist". How about instead of using Uncharted 4 as your soapbox to speak on behalf of women (even though Neil is a man), move forward with new franchises - like Horizon - where the woman is the default and people have to deal with it. Then I'll accept it. But Mass Effect? Dragon Age? Those are settings established back in 2007 or 2008... you can't just reshape that as you please without hurting the narrative. For Andromeda though, it's whatever. Ryder is new, he is not any sexuality "by choice" now that Bioware is smarter about it. And the futuristic setting of Andromeda also means that the contemporary nature carries with it. Characters in the game come from the mindset we have to day but thought 200 years ahead by imagination and obviously a lot of people can freely be whatever sexuality they have then. I'm still honest though and I have to say I've grown slightly less fond of the games constantly teasing me with gay and transgenderism when I do not personally want that for myself, and that's the result. Please everybody with a product and all you get is inflation out of the average user's enjoyment because maybe only a 3rd of the content was made for one particular group but they still have to ignore the other third of the content that was designed for the other sex or sexuality.
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Post by darcon on Mar 9, 2017 20:21:47 GMT
I think the following video explains my position on this matter better than I myself ever could, so if you find the time I recommend you watch it. He glossed over one important fact about Ross and that was no one gave a dam about her skin color or her gender but more people on the left side were pissed about her not being voiced by a black woman.
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Post by rossi320 on Mar 9, 2017 22:40:24 GMT
...Stuff like this is why another asteroid should just come by and end it all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 22:49:13 GMT
I'm honestly fed up with the term SJW, to be honest. It's at the point where it's used for anything anyone doesn't agree with. A female lead? SJW. A normal-looking female? SJW. Urgh, why can't people just stop complaining and enjoy the games for what they are.
Oh, not ranting at anyone here, by the way.
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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Post by kino on Mar 9, 2017 22:49:29 GMT
Man, I hope so, just so I can sit back and watch some people absolutely melt the hell down. That's always fun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 22:56:13 GMT
"Full of them"? No, I doubt it... but I also doubt BW can help themselves, so there will at least be something there... even if it's just cringy slam poetry from a Quarian, about how oppressed she is by her own immune system, or some such BS. ...actually, forget it, that could be quite a clever piece of satire. Thanks now I want Quarian slam poetry in Mass Effect...or any kind of slam poetry in Mass Effect, really. Elcor slam poetry FTW
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Post by kingjuly on Mar 9, 2017 22:57:03 GMT
Im gonna be honest, this kind of bitching is really pathetic. Its so very very shallow and incredibly pathetic...like its hard to get across just how scummy and pathetic this kind of complaining is.
Who the fuck cares if there are straight, gay, bisexual, asexual or pansexual characters? why do you care?
Who the fuck cares if there are black, white, asian or hispanic human characters? why do you care?
Who the fuck cares if there are themes of capitalism or communism or any other political structure? Why do you care?
Are you telling me when you see ANY of these in a game you immediately get turned off and put the controller down? Are you that sickened by the fact that the human race is diverse? Well I guess you're shit out of luck because there just so happens to be one or two human characters in Mass Effect. If it bothers you so fucking much that Bioware is attempting to show how diverse we can be as a species, which is a plot point in pretty much all the ME games, then dont buy the game. Period.
Could we just get back to complaining about animations or something? Id much prefer that.
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Post by squidney2k1 on Mar 9, 2017 23:01:26 GMT
Straight up bait topic.
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Post by slimgrin on Mar 9, 2017 23:15:53 GMT
I expect some SJW lite. Whatever agenda Bioware puts in doesn't bother me or ruin their games.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Mar 9, 2017 23:15:57 GMT
I estimate about 15% of sidequests will be full blown SJW nonsense.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 9, 2017 23:23:39 GMT
I think the following video explains my position on this matter better than I myself ever could, so if you find the time I recommend you watch it. Oh sorry, I thought we were just linking youtube videos.
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Post by fatherjerusalem on Mar 10, 2017 2:35:42 GMT
In all the videos that have come out so far I haven't seen Ryder call the Kett a bunch of "fucking lib cuck losers" ONCE.
SJW BULLSHIT CONFIRMED!!11111!!1one!1!!!1one!1!
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Post by danishgambit on Mar 10, 2017 2:47:08 GMT
Im gonna be honest, this kind of bitching is really pathetic. Its so very very shallow and incredibly pathetic...like its hard to get across just how scummy and pathetic this kind of complaining is. Who the fuck cares if there are straight, gay, bisexual, asexual or pansexual characters? why do you care? Who the fuck cares if there are black, white, asian or hispanic human characters? why do you care? Who the fuck cares if there are themes of capitalism or communism or any other political structure? Why do you care? Are you telling me when you see ANY of these in a game you immediately get turned off and put the controller down? Are you that sickened by the fact that the human race is diverse? Well I guess you're shit out of luck because there just so happens to be one or two human characters in Mass Effect. If it bothers you so fucking much that Bioware is attempting to show how diverse we can be as a species, which is a plot point in pretty much all the ME games, then dont buy the game. Period. Could we just get back to complaining about animations or something? Id much prefer that. While I agree with all of what you said, none of that actually has anything to do with the problem of SJW stuff. This is why i always tell people to look this stuff up. It sounds like you are referring to the widely incorrect use of the SJW term used by people who don't know what they're talking about. It gets even worse with politics when people like to use words like "leftist" or "liberal" and they don't know what those words mean. They sound "bad" to certain folks so they just use the terms incorrectly to insult others.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 10, 2017 4:00:51 GMT
I expect some SJW lite. Whatever agenda Bioware puts in doesn't bother me or ruin their games. If DA:I had a more oppressive atmosphere or if the Breach had been threatening up in the sky the entire game I would've probably not even thought too much about the other stuff, so here's to hoping that Andromeda at least has a more engaging plot than Inquisition... and I really... hope... blah!
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Post by The Twilight God on Mar 10, 2017 4:27:11 GMT
What is "SJW narratives"? I don't follow all the new terms and stuff hipp people use. Anyway, it sounds like a boring term so I will say "no". All same sex relationship dialog in a Bioware game is SJW narratives. Bioware is a LGBT SJW organization. And all the writers are gay too I guess. And transgendered.
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Post by Natashina on Mar 10, 2017 5:29:38 GMT
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 10, 2017 6:36:36 GMT
Narratives? No. Present, perhaps. Full, no.
Influence? Perhaps more than ever.
There's a lot of logical justifications for 'changes' I notice in MEA compared to previous games, but they're all consistent with what you'd find the social justice activists generally support. Get back to me when Asari strippers are confirmed and I'll admit I'm a little proven wrong.
But what many seem to call 'SJW', can often just be more social liberalism than one likes. Those complainers are even more annoying to me than almost all SJWs (except my ex, ahem). Its also predictably becoming more and more of a lazy insult instead of a abbreviated but pointed critique. Typical.
At least we may be evolving past libtard and dirty hippie.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 10, 2017 6:46:10 GMT
What is "SJW narratives"? I don't follow all the new terms and stuff hipp people use. Anyway, it sounds like a boring term so I will say "no". All same sex relationship dialog in a Bioware game is SJW narratives. Bioware is a LGBT SJW organization. And all the writers are gay too I guess. And transgendered. -SJW is having any gay characters, admitting they even exist -SJW is having major gay characters, displaying their permineance in the world -SJW is putting gay characters on almost or equal footing to other characters, considering it particularly important to show their humanity -SJW is feeling it necessary to include gay themes, potentially compromising the quality of the media -SJW is focusing on educating the audience on the current-day standards of progressive consensus, over what could otherwise be in that part of a story An example of different degrees. The higher ones in that list may more likely be social conservatives that either don't want to admit they're that, or at least people who latch onto whatever is the current insult towards the left. The lower ones in that list may more likely have some sort of nuanced - agree or disagree - position about particularities of social justice advocates (who are never the majority of society, to be clear) in media. Everyone is going to have their politics in their creations on even the slightest detectable level. But people who intentionally put their politics in things are also going to have more people than otherwise notice, question, or even protest. Even if that politics is hte 'correct' politics of many circles, or the current time, or of a generation, etc. EDIT: By politics, I mean anything to do with deciding how power happens. This can mean power to do anything in society, to change any part of what other people are involved in, to express how you think power should be used and considered by others. I think a person can be minimally political simply by not engaging in any sort of overt or subtle discussion on these things, but a person can be highly political if they are basically 'soapboxing' all the time. I kinda get the complaints about Krem scenes being 'soapboxing', and Dorian scenes being 'political'. There's nothing necessarily wrong with either, but especially as a commercial product and not just personally created art, a video game studio's gotta expect that they're accepting not just unwarranted hate about this stuff, but honestly felt and hesitantly spoken critique. And cool. Because even the minimally political person's gonna be drawn into something political at some point in their lives. You can't entirely avoid it, and its not exactly a bad thing. I even applaud Bioware for taking some stands on some things that they really never needed to, and yet we get to look back in the future and appreciate it even more. But they are being much more political and thus possibly preachy or self-censoring or moderating or whatever at times and that's gonna be called out in nuanced or crude ways, by the rational and the bigoted.
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Post by vynticator on Mar 10, 2017 8:26:38 GMT
As others have suggested, the idea of colonizing an already-populated sector of space, exploiting all the resources (substitute 'oil' for 'Element Zero'), establishing a network of military dominance to ensure 'peace' - not classic SJW terrain Rather reminds me of that GOP guy who last year said when America was settled by Europeans 'no-one was there before'. On the other hand, I imagine there will be some missions which involved healing harmful planetary environments, helping the needy or sick, defending the weak. If 'conservatives' have decided to label that kind of thing as 'SJW storylines', I think they've given up too much ground! I'd be quietly impressed if, in honour of Pruitt, you get to massacre the indigenous Krogan on the desert world, pollute the ground and air, and steal the resources in order to make your 'business' Initiative run more smoothly...
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 10, 2017 8:53:04 GMT
So I have seen a lot of posts complaining about "muh sjws". While I find these complaints to often be as whiny as those they are complaining about, I would like to know whether this is a vocal minority or not. I'd like to know exactly what sort of narratives you mean, please specify. 'SJW narratives' is too vague to be meaningful and sometimes is just a slur to throw around. If you can share some specifics we can discuss it, otherwise, it just becomes a content-less bait-fest (and I'll lock it). I'll pop back later to see what has been decided. ok, as the OP hasn't been back, and as we've all got this out of our system, I think we're done here. By all means, when the game actually releases and we have some actual plotlines to debate, then we can revisit this.
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