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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 12, 2017 15:14:27 GMT
I'd like to see how this works in practice. I'll admit I never changed companion weapons in any playthrough. But I did like varying the companion armor. We can't change how other players dress in multiplayer so this is just an extension of that: We can tell our squad where to go and what to attack, but they are responsible for getting dressed and their equipment. I only changed my companions' weapons in 3 really. With the modding and upgrades it made sense. It's pretty disappointing that you cannot give Jaal a blackwidow or equip any of your squadmates with remnant or heleus weapons. It's especially sad if I create and name my own gun that I cannot give that weapon to my squad mates.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 12, 2017 15:20:39 GMT
I mean... Did people really enjoy doing this? Yes Why even have companions, then? We're supposed to be a cohesive team who work and fight together, learning to merge our strengths and fighting styles to work as a unit. It's clearly very closely modelled on the multiplayer which was really successful. The point is that you are picking which squadmate to bring along with specific weapons, with skills you have chosen to develop. Whenever we were out with Garrus, it was clear he was a Sniper, until he was actually with you in combat. This will increase exactly the significance of that situational crewmate choice, and so improve roleplay in my view.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 12, 2017 15:28:26 GMT
I approve this. Of course we want a game perfect full of everything, but that is not possible. A question remain : does adding personalisated equipement to squadmate improve the game in anyway and is it worth the time ? In Dragon Age it makes sense to have equipement for squadmates, they do not have a specific progression and you could specialize them in one direction instead of another. A mage could be specialised in damage or in protective spell, a warrior in damage or tanking, equipement should reflect that. Same thing for Mass Effect protagonist, you don't have a set class so in order to optimize your gameplay according to your abilities you need equipement. However Mass Effect Squadmate does have a set class and the limited evolution to abilities does not justify to have multiples possible equipement. A soldier teammate will need an armor with bonus to weapon damage (so no RP reason behind that) so it would take systematicaly the best tiers armor possible...and that is all. The bonus on equipement are arbitrary in mass effect, there is no reason a chest piece improve your weapon damage or your biotic ability duration there is no logical RP reason behind it. In DA:I I find it disapointing to have to choose between an ugly generic armor that don't fit the character or an armor inferior but with a better look and if you play mass effect 1 you know what I mean. You had a lot of armor in mass effect 1 and everyone was ugly as hell. That is why DA;I had some armor that change appearence to fit the character it is applied to with tier 1,2,3,4 looking item. But let's focus on ME:A. In ME:A we have 8 characters wearing armor (2 ryder+6 squadmate). Each character has an unique physionomy and was designed that way (unlike dragon age were the human had the exact same bone structure). That means 8 armors to design for a same skin, moreover Turian, Angaran and Krogan require specific armor because of their physionomy, mass effect 1 dealt with that with a bunch of ugly generic armor...hurrah. So mass effect 2, 3, andromeda (and many dragon age 2 and inquisition) decided not to create generic armor for every character but specific armor set for specific character and we won at the change. Garrus armor in mass effect 2 and 3 is better than anything in mass effect 1, and losing a 3% optimization on a side character that does not do much in combat anyway. Do you want honestly think the game would win trading Miranda and Kasumi suit, Shepard N7 armor, Thane Jacket, Garrus Cool armor and Mordin cool lab coat for the ugly phoenix armor because of the slight upgrade in stat adding nothing to the game overall ? TL DR. An armor is used for optimization and skin. Optimizing side character with an already set class would be pointless and adding micromanaging were it is not engaging neither in gameplay or in RP. We want squadmate to have personnalities, their armor look is part of their character design, that is why every game and every movie spend a lot of time designing their visual identities. Plus I don't see why micromanaging our squadmate armor is RP... Yep totally immersive and enriching.
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Post by goishen on Mar 12, 2017 15:31:05 GMT
It truthfully makes me wonder if they have a lore master out there for ME games like they do with DA and Weekes. Prolly not. If they did, they wouldn't feel the need to rip off of SW. I mean, do you realize how difficult it is to go toe to toe with SW? How many other SciFi shows have attempted and failed fucking miserably?
Add to this the writing for Liam. He's in his early 20's. He's not 13. "Something HAS to go right! Because I'm an emo little bitch!"
WTF?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 15:31:44 GMT
Yes Why even have companions, then? We're supposed to be a cohesive team who work and fight together, learning to merge our strengths and fighting styles to work as a unit. It's clearly very closely modelled on the multiplayer which was really successful. The point is that you are picking which squadmate to bring along with specific weapons, with skills you have chosen to develop. Whenever we were out with Garrus, it was clear he was a Sniper, until he was actually with you in combat. This will increase exactly the significance of that situational crewmate choice, and so improve roleplay in my view. And yet I could equip Garrus with a Black Widow if I wanted extra stopping power, an Indra if rapid fire seemed most appropriate, an Incisor for burst fire, etc. Not to mention I could mod anything Garrus used. And what part of role playing has Peebee in a gunfight on a toxic world armored only with a jacket that's not even buttoned up correctly?
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Post by Thalandor on Mar 12, 2017 15:35:50 GMT
Well, that thread exploded.
Do we have confirmation that we will AT LEAST be able to upgrade and mod the weapons used by our squaddies, even if they're stuck with same base weapon model?
In other words, can Cora upgrade Avenger I ---> Avenger V, + lightning bullets mods or whatever ??
BTW, I have no clue if Cora uses the Avenger, it's just for this example.
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 12, 2017 15:36:44 GMT
It's clearly very closely modelled on the multiplayer which was really successful. The point is that you are picking which squadmate to bring along with specific weapons, with skills you have chosen to develop. Whenever we were out with Garrus, it was clear he was a Sniper, until he was actually with you in combat. This will increase exactly the significance of that situational crewmate choice, and so improve roleplay in my view. And yet I could equip Garrus with a Black Widow if I wanted extra stopping power, an Ind if rapid fire seemed most appropriate, an Incisor for burst fire, etc. Not to mention I could mod anything Garrus used. And what part of role playing has Peebee in a gunfight on a toxic world armored only with a jacket that's not even buttoned up correctly? the part were you choose the right people for the right job? reminds me of older jrpgs you want a healer you better bring the healer not whine the black mage isn't a healer. why would the rogue academic dress or act like a soldier?
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 12, 2017 15:37:45 GMT
It's just an assumption at this point. We just don't know how it works. Nothing says that they don't have any preset alternate appearances (DLC and\or plot-related), no one said that we can't mod&customize their preset weapon loadouts. All we know 100% is that 'dress the doll' is not on the MEA features list, and that (very likely) companions are limited with their choice of weapons. Right but whats the point of being able to customize and rename weapons, especially Remnant and Heleus weapons, if you can't give them to your squad mates. I'll probably never use certain weapons because they won't fit my play style, but I would want to give them to my squadmates to use.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 15:37:59 GMT
I approve this. Of course we want a game perfect full of everything, but that is not possible. A question remain : does adding personalisated equipement to squadmate improve the game in anyway and is it worth the time ? In Dragon Age it makes sense to have equipement for squadmates, they do not have a specific progression and you could specialize them in one direction instead of another. A mage could be specialised in damage or in protective spell, a warrior in damage or tanking, equipement should reflect that. Same thing for Mass Effect protagonist, you don't have a set class so in order to optimize your gameplay according to your abilities you need equipement. However Mass Effect Squadmate does have a set class and the limited evolution to abilities does not justify to have multiples possible equipement. A soldier teammate will need an armor with bonus to weapon damage (so no RP reason behind that) so it would take systematicaly the best tiers armor possible...and that is all. The bonus on equipement are arbitrary in mass effect, there is no reason a chest piece improve your weapon damage or your biotic ability duration there is no logical RP reason behind it. In DA:I I find it disapointing to have to choose between an ugly generic armor that don't fit the character or an armor inferior but with a better look and if you play mass effect 1 you know what I mean. You had a lot of armor in mass effect 1 and everyone was ugly as hell. That is why DA;I had some armor that change appearence to fit the character it is applied to with tier 1,2,3,4 looking item. But let's focus on ME:A. In ME:A we have 8 characters wearing armor (2 ryder+6 squadmate). Each character has an unique physionomy and was designed that way (unlike dragon age were the human had the exact same bone structure). That means 8 armors to design for a same skin, moreover Turian, Angaran and Krogan require specific armor because of their physionomy, mass effect 1 dealt with that with a bunch of ugly generic armor...hurrah. So mass effect 2, 3, andromeda (and many dragon age 2 and inquisition) decided not to create generic armor for every character but specific armor set for specific character and we won at the change. Garrus armor in mass effect 2 and 3 is better than anything in mass effect 1, and losing a 3% optimization on a side character that does not do much in combat anyway. Do you want honestly think the game would win trading Miranda suit, Shepard N7 armor, Thane Jacket, Garrus Cool armor for the ugly phoenix armor because of the slight upgrade in stat adding nothing to the game overall ? TL DR. An armor is used for optimization and skin. Optimizing side character with an already set class would be pointless and adding micromanaging were it is not engaging neither in gameplay or in RP. We want squadmate to have personnalities, their armor look is part of their character design, that is why every game and every movie spend a lot of time designing their visual identities. Plus I don't see why micromanaging our squadmate armor is RP... Yep totally immersive and enriching. DAI the same outfit would look different on three different characters THese three characters are all wearing Battlemaster armor, for example: So in DAI, that white and pink monstrosity couldn't happen
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 12, 2017 15:40:27 GMT
Thalandor : My understanding is that squadmates' weapons (maybe armor too) will upgrade as they level up and spend talent points. I think there's a tweet to that effect upthread. So they upgrade, but via a completely different system.
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Post by 10k on Mar 12, 2017 15:41:21 GMT
I'm fine with not being able to change my companion's gear. I'm not fine with my companions wearing gear that is not practical for space, that's the issue.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 15:42:34 GMT
And yet I could equip Garrus with a Black Widow if I wanted extra stopping power, an Ind if rapid fire seemed most appropriate, an Incisor for burst fire, etc. Not to mention I could mod anything Garrus used. And what part of role playing has Peebee in a gunfight on a toxic world armored only with a jacket that's not even buttoned up correctly? the part were you chosoe the right people for the right job? reminds me of older jrpgs you want a healer you better bring the healer not whine the black mage isn't a healer. why would the rogue academic dress or act like a soldier? And I'm sure many players will do that. In ME2 I only ran with Garrus and Tali unless I was doing a loyalty mission precisely because they were the only two characters who were really armored up (even Grunt lacked sleeves) But I'm sure people who actually want to have Peebee around but think it's frakking stupid to be exploring planets and getting into gunfights and battling giant monsters in an outfit more appropriate for the mall are gonna be p*ssed.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 15:44:34 GMT
Thalandor : My understanding is that squadmates' weapons (maybe armor too) will upgrade as they level up and spend talent points. I think there's a tweet to that effect upthread. So they upgrade, but via a completely different system. The tweet states that weapons will gain in strength as they level up and based on skill selection. Think Bianca in the Dragon Age games, I guess. Minus being able to mod or enchant it.
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 12, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
the part were you chosoe the right people for the right job? reminds me of older jrpgs you want a healer you better bring the healer not whine the black mage isn't a healer. why would the rogue academic dress or act like a soldier? And I'm sure many players will do that. In ME2 I only ran with Garrus and Tali unless I was doing a loyalty mission precisely because they were the only two characters who were really armored up (even Grunt lacked sleeves) But I'm sure people who actually want to have Peebee around but think it's frakking stupid to be exploring planets and getting into gunfights and battling giant monsters in an outfit more appropriate for the mall are gonna be p*ssed. and I'm fairly sure those people were always gonna be mad about something even if they had to ignore lore or outright make something up... in fact don't biotics use their biotic barriers for protection not armor or shields? aren't all asari biotics?
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Post by Thalandor on Mar 12, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
Thalandor : My understanding is that squadmates' weapons (maybe armor too) will upgrade as they level up and spend talent points. I think there's a tweet to that effect upthread. So they upgrade, but via a completely different system. The tweet states that weapons will gain in strength as they level up and based on skill selection. Think Bianca in the Dragon Age games, I guess. Minus being able to mod or enchant it. Sigh. Not sure how I feel about that, it looks like more streamlining that hurts gameplay diversity. Thanks for the info though.
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 12, 2017 15:52:53 GMT
Your argument doesn't include a single detail regarding weapons though. Changing their armor isn't a huge deal, but whats the point of having all these weapons, mods, etc if you cannot give some of them to your squadmates. I understand that certain characters should only equip certain types of weapons, but not having the ability to give Drack an awesome modded Heleus shotgun or give Jaal a modded Black Widow is pretty lazy. Why have all these weapons if our squad mates are stuck with base milky way weapons. No lighting mods or anything. Its so fucking dumb
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 12, 2017 15:58:30 GMT
I'm fine with not being able to change my companion's gear. I'm not fine with my companions wearing gear that is not practical for space, that's the issue. One of the issues, anyway. But control over outfits is neither necessary for nor sufficient to ensure having a practical outfit. You either need to have them revert back to generic looks for all armor and have the generic looks be practical,or to have whoever is designing the iconic looks include practical appearances for each squadmate. This is conceptually distinct from player control of gear. It's an art question, not a mechanics question. We seem to have at least three different issues with the gear system being expressed here. 1). Desire for practical outfits. 2). Desire for strategic depth through companion gear control 3). Desire for player control over appearances in itself. Any of these could be solved without solving the other two. I think the intellectual confusion here is because the ME1 system solved all of them at once. Also, note that ME2 and ME3 were weak in all of these areas. 1 went away after ME1 altogether, 2 was nonexistent in ME2 and very weak in ME3, and 3 was weak in the later games, though improved slightly with DLC if you cared enough to buy it. I suppose our reactions to this have a lot to do with expectations. I didn't have any hope for point 1 after ME3 didn't walk the ME2 system back, and I never did care about point 3. But DAI and the previews led me to expect better for point 2.
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Post by hammerstorm on Mar 12, 2017 15:59:01 GMT
And yet I could equip Garrus with a Black Widow if I wanted extra stopping power, an Ind if rapid fire seemed most appropriate, an Incisor for burst fire, etc. Not to mention I could mod anything Garrus used. And what part of role playing has Peebee in a gunfight on a toxic world armored only with a jacket that's not even buttoned up correctly? the part were you choose the right people for the right job? reminds me of older jrpgs you want a healer you better bring the healer not whine the black mage isn't a healer. why would the rogue academic dress or act like a soldier? But Peebee's loyalty mission, that you have to take her with you on, is on a burning planet. How does that make any sense? And if she is going with people that is going to fight, it is common sense to use protective gear. But maybe people in the future get stupider? And while I agree that you take the right person on the right mission, that is not the main problem, the problem is that we can't give them a weapon that should be better at that mission. For example if Cora have an assault rifle, we can't give Cora a AR that have less speed but more power. While it is not a dealbreaker for me, I can't really see it as a good thing. Will I still be able to enjoy it and play it? Yes, but I can still see it as a weird decision.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 16:00:58 GMT
And I'm sure many players will do that. In ME2 I only ran with Garrus and Tali unless I was doing a loyalty mission precisely because they were the only two characters who were really armored up (even Grunt lacked sleeves) But I'm sure people who actually want to have Peebee around but think it's frakking stupid to be exploring planets and getting into gunfights and battling giant monsters in an outfit more appropriate for the mall are gonna be p*ssed. and I'm fairly sure those people were always gonna be mad about something even if they had to ignore lore or outright make something up... in fact don't biotics use their biotic barriers for protection not armor or shields? aren't all asari biotics? First, biotics require concentration. If you can't focus, or don't see the attack coming biotics do FA for you in a fight. Second, biotics require energy. IF you're exhausted, biotics do FA for you in a fight. Third, barriers don't protect you from poisons, extreme heat, cold, radiation, and other energy-based dangers. On a world with a hostile climate, biotics are going to do FA to keep you alive. Finally, even if you are in a situation where biotics are useful, extra redundancy is always useful. Extra redundancy is always useful. And in Peebee's case, you can't even use the fig leaf of "She's a 900 year old justicar and has been fighting bad guys for centuries"
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Post by Iakus on Mar 12, 2017 16:03:25 GMT
But Peebee's loyalty mission, that you have to take her with you on, is on a burning planet. How does that make any sense? And if she is going with people that is going to fight, it is common sense to use protective gear. But maybe people in the future get stupider? [/quote]
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 12, 2017 16:04:53 GMT
the part were you choose the right people for the right job? reminds me of older jrpgs you want a healer you better bring the healer not whine the black mage isn't a healer. why would the rogue academic dress or act like a soldier? But Peebee's loyalty mission, that you have to take her with you on, is on a burning planet. How does that make any sense? And if she is going with people that is going to fight, it is common sense to use protective gear. But maybe people in the future get stupider? And while I agree that you take the right person on the right mission, that is not the main problem, the problem is that we can't give them a weapon that should be better at that mission. For example if Cora have an assault rifle, we can't give Cora a AR that have less speed but more power. While it is not a dealbreaker for me, I can't really see it as a good thing. Will I still be able to enjoy it and play it? Yes, but I can still see it as a weird decision. we know ME fields protect from at least some environmental hazards and heat seems to be one of them. biotics use me fields to do what they do and she's using them for protection anyway. is seems at least on the it makes no sense point peebee is covered on the lore side. on other character I can't say yet.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 12, 2017 16:09:48 GMT
Iakus
I did mention those armors and they are good friendly looking but there are only a handfull of them (I think it was a 3 tiers armor). The rest of the armor share the same skin of every member of one class and there are very weird looking. Dragon Age needed armor for squadmates because they are useful, the main character is not necessarily the strongest member of the team every member is important and their equipement should reflect how you personalize them. I decided Cassandra would tank so I give her strong armor adding HP and damage reduction rather than brute force (on that note crafting in DA:I was limited, adding elemental resistance was boring). Constantly switching gear in DA:I between 10 characters was a bit of pain in the ass, but at least it made sense.
In Mass Effect you cannot choose the class of one squadmate, you can only tweak some ability to combos yours. And in ME:A gameplay and ME in general the main character does 99% of the job. Optimizing one squadmate seems to be a lost of time and only concern the look. So yes I think that some evolutive armor or different costume (like those unlocked by loyalty mission in ME2) would be neat, but I don't think not having them would ruin my experience.
And yes Pee Bee is not the best soldier, she is not a soldier. The cast should reflect different character, on some mission I want the heavy strong guy, on other, like investing a laboratory I want field agent like Mordin, Liara or PeeBee rather than Grunt or James. And shouldn't the shield protect you to some extent from the hazard ? Sure PeeBee suit is not fitted for battle but hopefully the game offer other content than that and depending on the job the suit will be good enough, but if i want to attack a military forteress I probably take a soldier than a scientist.
I would argue that an armor does not change many thing, a automated weapon would still shred someone. The armor is just here to change a possibly mortal shot to a less deadly one with luck. That is why our current soldier doesn't really wear amor to protect efficiently their chest but does wear helmet. In Mass Effect it is the shield or the barrier that does 99% of the job. Once the shield is destroyed you have to run to cover. A heavy armored guy will still be efficient against small weapon and possibly because his equipement allow better shield. But a charcter like PeeBee would not attack the front line like a krogan but rather stay in cover and use drone, turret, and tech ability to attack its opponent. Her having an armor would not change her combat playstyle, just her speed.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 12, 2017 16:10:19 GMT
and I'm fairly sure those people were always gonna be mad about something even if they had to ignore lore or outright make something up... in fact don't biotics use their biotic barriers for protection not armor or shields? aren't all asari biotics? First, biotics require concentration. If you can't focus, or don't see the attack coming biotics do FA for you in a fight. Second, biotics require energy. IF you're exhausted, biotics do FA for you in a fight. Third, barriers don't protect you from poisons, extreme heat, cold, radiation, and other energy-based dangers. On a world with a hostile climate, biotics are going to do FA to keep you alive. Finally, even if you are in a situation where biotics are useful, extra redundancy is always useful. Extra redundancy is always useful. And in Peebee's case, you can't even use the fig leaf of "She's a 900 year old justicar and has been fighting bad guys for centuries" 1, she is using them for that anyway no thing new needed. 2. in a fight if a biotic and your that tired your sol anyway. 3. well then we're all dead anyway is it doesn't matter. hail our new reaper overlords. and in peebee case she isn't covering a whole squad just doing what she does every fight anyway. so she doesn't need to be a 900 year old justicar.
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Post by hammerstorm on Mar 12, 2017 16:10:57 GMT
But Peebee's loyalty mission, that you have to take her with you on, is on a burning planet. How does that make any sense? And if she is going with people that is going to fight, it is common sense to use protective gear. But maybe people in the future get stupider? And while I agree that you take the right person on the right mission, that is not the main problem, the problem is that we can't give them a weapon that should be better at that mission. For example if Cora have an assault rifle, we can't give Cora a AR that have less speed but more power. While it is not a dealbreaker for me, I can't really see it as a good thing. Will I still be able to enjoy it and play it? Yes, but I can still see it as a weird decision. we know ME fields protect from at least some environmental hazards and heat seems to be one of them. biotics use me fields to do what they do and she's using them for protection anyway. is seems at least on the it makes no sense point peebee is covered on the lore side. on other character I can't say yet. Barriers do not protect against physical damage like melee attacks, debris or environmental hazards. So no, she is not protected. Who is it that goes around and say this? It has been said from ME1 that they are not doing that.
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Post by Zemgus on Mar 12, 2017 16:11:20 GMT
This fucking sucks.
Just like DA2. I hated not being able to customize my companions looks and now it's even worse since we can't even change their weapons?! And we can't give them orders either. Makes them feel more like annoying sidekicks than real companions. I don't like the forced 'iconic appearance' thing since that kind of stuff just makes the characters feel less real and more cartoony to me. DAI did wonderful job with companion customization. I don't understand why MEA can't do the same. Even SWTOR lets you decide what your companions wear.
So much for the 'more player freedom than ever before!' they were tweeting about the other day...
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