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Post by Saboru on Mar 18, 2017 22:25:00 GMT
So depending on geography, the percentage of gays is between 2%-11% of the population (or thereabouts). When it comes to consumers of video games, the percentages are likely the same, perhaps slightly higher. The representation in video games these days when it comes to gay romance and similar seems to go above 2%-10% in comparison to similar content aimed at straight consumers. So what is the complaint about exactly? I've never got the percentage thing. From various discussions in the gaming sites of the internet as near as I can tell it should always be applied to sexual orientation, but must be actively avoided when considering gender, ethnicity, age or disability. It has an oddly specific scope.
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Post by Saboru on Mar 18, 2017 23:27:51 GMT
I've never got the percentage thing. From various discussions in the gaming sites of the internet as near as I can tell it should always be applied to sexual orientation, but must be actively avoided when considering gender, ethnicity, age or disability. It has an oddly specific scope. Would you mind elaborating, I'm not sure I understand.
All I pointed out, is that the percentage of gays among consumers of video games is likely similar to their percentage among the general population, and that representation for them goes above said percentage. So again, what is the complaint?
To the scope of the percentage argument. I'm maybe derailing into the general here, but indulge me. You're arguing this as an artifact of percentage based representation, but limiting yourself to one data point. If it's valid and that's what's going on it's going to apply more widely. So, I picked a few other traits to consider and I've got to say the percentages there look shot. If that's the case, whatever is going on in video games, percentage based representation isn't it, and if it's not what's happening in general then what's the logic for this instance being the exception.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 18, 2017 23:33:43 GMT
So depending on geography, the percentage of gays is between 2%-11% of the population (or thereabouts). When it comes to consumers of video games, the percentages are likely the same, perhaps slightly higher. The representation in video games these days when it comes to gay romance and similar seems to go above 2%-10% in comparison to similar content aimed at straight consumers. So what is the complaint about exactly? You're talking in terms of quantity. The concerns being raised are also about quality. Not that I have any qualms about anything myself, especially since they've been improving on every iteration. Right. The active thread on the spoilers board last week was largely about worries that none of the gay LIs would be squadmates. Non-squadmates are seen as inferior content. This is a problem because the devs don't believe that.
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Post by Saboru on Mar 18, 2017 23:49:26 GMT
To the scope of the percentage argument. I'm maybe derailing into the general here, but indulge me. You're arguing this as an artifact of percentage based representation, but limiting yourself to one data point. If it's valid and that's what's going on it's going to apply more widely. So, I picked a few other traits to consider and I've got to say the percentages there look shot. If that's the case, whatever is going on in video games, percentage based representation isn't it, and if it's not what's happening in general then what's the logic for this instance being the exception. You mentioned ethnicity, age, and disability, IIRC.
Age and disability are largely irrelevant for most games like Mass Effect, you can't have an old guy going into combat, and you can't have someone disabled there either. Even Joker as the pilot was rather farfetched, considering that even the slightest G-force pressure should have shattered his skeleton into million pieces.
And you did have older people like Hackett and Chakwas in ME. (that's without even going into the question of what is the benefit of adding old and disabled people into the game, it might make a handful of the consumers happy, but that's about it)
As for ethnicity, I don't actually think it matters. I want a good story and interesting characters, I don't particularly care about their skin color. My favorite show right now is the Expanse, and the cast there is rather diverse. I care about merit, not race.
A good story that makes sense should be a writer's first and foremost priority, everything else should be secondary.
There we go, that's what I mean about the percentage argument being embraced for some very specific traits, but when you start suggesting it's applied to others it goes alll but, but, but, no, reasons.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 19, 2017 0:03:40 GMT
It's all fine and dandy but I'm still waiting for a romance arc that feels genuine and not just pandering.
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Post by Saboru on Mar 19, 2017 0:24:55 GMT
There we go, that's what I mean about the percentage argument being embraced for some very specific traits, but when you start suggesting it's applied to others it goes alll but, but, but, no, reasons. Yes, reasons. Good reasons. A shame you ignored what I actually wrote in favor of throwing a one-liner, doesn't speak much for the strength of your argument. The quality of the reasons isn't the issue, and the one liner is in fact the response to your original question to me. What's the complaint? It's that you have a very general principle, you have applied it in a very specific instance, and as soon as it's suggested it be applied in more general instance you have many individual reasons why it can't apply to them. And that is the point when the little warning siren sounds alerting you to the fact something is up. It's irrelevant how well and to what length you can defend each point in isolation, either it applies to everything, or you can explain what criteria are required to make it applicable.
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Post by worsin on Mar 19, 2017 0:56:36 GMT
Straight men of color do not like tits and ass? Only White men? My world view is shattered. No, only white straight males like some giant colossal tits and butts. Females, and black straight male don't like that. Boobies and booties are a social construct made by white straight doctors. Fuckin' patriarchy. This is coming from the same children who stereotype gay-bi people after Cora's hair. Never change, fandom. Thats not what Sir Mix-A-Lot Says
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Post by boyaki on Mar 19, 2017 1:00:10 GMT
I've never got the percentage thing. From various discussions in the gaming sites of the internet as near as I can tell it should always be applied to sexual orientation, but must be actively avoided when considering gender, ethnicity, age or disability. It has an oddly specific scope. Would you mind elaborating, I'm not sure I understand.
All I pointed out, is that the percentage of gays among consumers of video games is likely similar to their percentage among the general population, and that representation for them goes above said percentage. So again, what is the complaint?
But bioware games are exception to the rule no ? I don't see many games with romance that had gay relationship. Also representation is not about a % thing. There are no rule about mass effect should have more/less gay relationship to match some statistic (also 2-11% is very flawed, but whatever). The question is to represent every player in a RPG game, something that seems obvious in a game where you create your character. I often here critic when a game has a gay or colored character with people saying "The main audience is neglected". However what should minorities think for 99,99% of the game where you play a white straight male hero ? When I see people boycotting a game because of a racist dev, I don't see them boycotting other companies too. At her reveal, Sara Ryder was "too mexican". I do appreciate that Bioware understood that there are different people playing their game and that a RPG should allow their to identify themself to their character. That is why their is over representation not because it is pandering but because in a game where "create your own character" is the most important feature it was the normal thing to do. Don't know why it should be discussed.
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Post by worsin on Mar 19, 2017 1:12:27 GMT
People miss the fact that you simply cannot please everyone. There will always be some turds that are displeased with something.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:21:49 GMT
There aren't really many games out there that have romance and relationships aside from BW. I think you are being generous. Which company besides Bioware and Obsidian does include romance and relationships? Cuz I can't remember any from the top of my head right now.
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Post by adasirin on Mar 19, 2017 1:24:57 GMT
There aren't really many games out there that have romance and relationships aside from BW. I think you are being generous. Which company besides Bioware and Obsidian does include romance and relationships? Cuz I can't remember any from the top of my head right now. Fallout 4 had romances with followers, but it was implemented in a pretty lazy and minimal way.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:26:46 GMT
I think you are being generous. Which company besides Bioware and Obsidian does include romance and relationships? Cuz I can't remember any from the top of my head right now. Fallout 4 had romances with followers, but it was implemented in a pretty lazy and minimal way. I mean like a proper relationship yeah, cuz you know, even Skyrim had ''romance''.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:30:58 GMT
I think you are being generous. Which company besides Bioware and Obsidian does include romance and relationships? Cuz I can't remember any from the top of my head right now. You have some Japanese romance "games", you have a few others as well maybe, you have the Sims I suppose, and some RPG-Maker-style games that may include some romance, but probably very little on the level of Bioware. TW3 is one exception, The Technomancer is another - if a rather low quality one.
Sims? ok.. I don't think I would count Witcher.. there is not much character relationship development that is directly tied to the player input. Technomancer yes! Forgot about that one, probably because the game was a bit.. bland.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 19, 2017 1:35:54 GMT
1° So not much game beside Bioware games have relationship ? Most if not all game involving a human character have some kind of relationship detailed in it, and some have multiple, just look at the AAA industry.
2° But there are not 2-11% (still stupid baseless number) gay character. Also white people are not the majority in the world however in video games there are omnipresent. If you think that gay character should go along the number you arbitrary fixed don't you think most character should be of Asian origin ? No percentage do not matter, that is why I don't complain when so many games have white male straigt characters (a minority), I really don't mind. I also expect people to not complain when there are character of other religion/sexuality/gender/ethnic group.
3° I still make my point. ME is a "create your own character" kind of RPG, it is basic sense in a game with romance to have romance fitting the character you made.
4° Somehow 1 gay and 1 lesbian is still to much. Should they be less than 1 ? 0 ? 0,2 ? 0,3 ?
5° What the freaking harm ?
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:38:55 GMT
I disagree about TW3. You can choose to pursue a romance or not, with more than one character. The interactions are controlled by the player to a similar degree to BW games. You can also choose to start the romance and not pursue it to its conclusion, you can choose to break up I think, and you can choose to try and pursue more than one, for some hilarious consequences...
Alright, fair enough.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:45:30 GMT
Can I join? Also white people are not the majority in the world however in video games there are omnipresent. Probably because the majority of game developers are white. If you think that gay character should go along the number you arbitrary fixed don't you think most character should be of Asian origin? I also expect people to not complain when there are character of other religion/sexuality/gender/ethnic group. Depends on the context, I didn't feel uncomfortable while playing Jade empire. ME is a "create your own character" kind of RPG. Olol Somehow 1 gay and 1 lesbian is still to much. All he is saying it is more than enough, not that it's too much.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:47:01 GMT
The Google translate is strong in your post.
Sorry, I can understand maybe a half of it, and even from that I can see that you misrepresented some of my arguments, so I'm not going to bother.
I didn't even notice until you mentioned. Is it weird that as a non-native english speaker I understood everything the person said perfectly?
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Post by boyaki on Mar 19, 2017 1:53:16 GMT
Can I join? Also white people are not the majority in the world however in video games there are omnipresent. Probably because the majority of game developers are white. If you think that gay character should go along the number you arbitrary fixed don't you think most character should be of Asian origin? I also expect people to not complain when there are character of other religion/sexuality/gender/ethnic group. Depends on the context, I didn't feel uncomfortable while playing Jade empire. ME is a "create your own character" kind of RPG. Olol Somehow 1 gay and 1 lesbian is still to much. All he is saying it is more than enough, not that it's too much. But some do say it is too much. Me quoting someone doesn't mean I put words in his mouth. It just allow me to make a point. Also most game developer are not white straigt male...well I have no certainty but when I look around me it is as much mixed in term of ethnic, less in term of gender (more a 7/3 ratio but still. Also game developper being white shouldn't affect the writting of the game no ? I know i'm still new to the business but still, I don't think that GD and writting are the same thing. Also you don't really answered my points. That is weird I know I can make errors but somehow people understand me on forums but you can't, I don't know why. It could not be a way to not answer my points...no that would be a hypocrit thing to do.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 19, 2017 1:53:54 GMT
You're never going to please everyone, but more to the point, you're never going to please everyone even if you go with that diversity nonsense.
Take DAI's portrayal of lesbians. You've got Sera (immature, anti-elitist, book-dumb, trollish), and Josephine (who is bisexual and romantically linked to a man in an arranged marriage, but she's studious and diplomatic). Do you think that is all lesbians are attracted to? Gays had Dorian (arrogant, pretentious, and whiny), and Iron Bull (hedonistic, into BDSM). Is that all gays are into.
I'm willing to say no. Some gays won't like either option. That's fine. You don't have to. The point is, some folk are never pleased. There's no sense in trying to please everyone, because you can't. I see no point in even trying to fill up all the little quotas. We're not playing Pokemon, you don't "gotta catch em all."
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 1:57:54 GMT
You're never going to please everyone, but more to the point, you're never going to please everyone even if you go with that diversity nonsense. Take DAI's portrayal of lesbians. You've got Sera (immature, anti-elitist, book-dumb, trollish), and Josephine (who is bisexual and romantically linked to a man in an arranged marriage, but she's studious and diplomatic). Do you think that is all lesbians are attracted to? Gays had Dorian (arrogant, pretentious, and whiny), and Iron Bull (hedonistic, into BDSM). Is that all gays are into. I'm willing to say no. Some gays won't like either option. That's fine. You don't have to. The point is, some folk are never pleased. There's no sense in trying to please everyone, because you can't. I see no point in even trying to fill up all the little quotas. We're not playing Pokemon, you don't "gotta catch em all." More complete randomness would be nice when it comes to characters, then maybe one day I will have a romance I enjoy.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 2:02:45 GMT
being white shouldn't affect the writting of the game no ? No.
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Post by adasirin on Mar 19, 2017 2:05:56 GMT
Fallout 4 had romances with followers, but it was implemented in a pretty lazy and minimal way. I mean like a proper relationship yeah, cuz you know, even Skyrim had ''romance''. I actually forgot all about the romances in Skyrim. And I have 1000+ hours in that game, which I guess goes to show just how "memorable" they are.
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Post by kaind on Mar 19, 2017 2:07:54 GMT
I mean like a proper relationship yeah, cuz you know, even Skyrim had ''romance''. I actually forgot all about the romances in Skyrim. And I have 1000+ hours in that game, which I guess goes to show just how "memorable" they are. I wish it was as simple irl. ''Oh you have a necklace! Let's Marry!''
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 19, 2017 2:08:31 GMT
It was interesting til it started to get ranty and over the top, as an early comment pointed out you can throw just as much criticism at DA. I never cared that certain things are aimed at straight people, they are the vast majority of the planet. I just want people to see that LGBT+ content does not ruin a game and it doesn't mean "straight male players" won't buy it too.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 19, 2017 2:10:24 GMT
Very few people believe that, by itself LGBT content ruins a game. However, the addition of it doesn't make the game good, either. A lot of writers do not have the skill to pull it off.
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