inherit
2279
0
114
Blackheart
98
December 2016
blackheart
|
Post by Blackheart on Mar 19, 2017 18:39:04 GMT
So all your post are pretty much apologising shitty animations because various ridiculous reasons like "lightning was off in that scene, atmosphere is different in this game etc...) Seriously, what the hell is that? You can go all you want into details and how animations work and how much knowledge or experience you have in this area, but that won't make your argument. It's not a rocket science to look at the picture or scene and see if there is something wrong with it. No one cares about your analysis, people just look at the scene and decide if it's good or not. Same as you loook at trailer for movie and decide if you think it's worth a watch or not. In this case, the important part is that we have good animations and scenes. How is that achieved, no one gives a fuck. I couldn't care less what method Bioware uses to achieve good scenes, I just want them to make sense so it doesn't break my immersion. Same as for your Witcher 3 analysis. Who cares what they did to hide most of animations or whatever? It worked, scenes were satisfying, convincable and not immersion breaking. That's all that matters. As long as it makes sense and looks good and appropriate, it's good for players. Oh, so me pointing out that people have hung op on a few seconds of a cutscene even though we see the very same animation 90% of the time in the game (when we play femRyder) and nobody is having issues with it, is apparently "apologizing for shitty animations", instead of pointing out how ridiculous cherrypicking is? Right. No discussing with you. Whatever I say it will be "apologizing" to you, no matter what I said. So, if we sit down a group of people and show them bunch of witcher 3 scenes and bunch of MEA scenes, who do you think would win in animations/scenes department? Let's assume you're not arrogant and go with Witcher 3 as a winner. So, therefore, people say witcher 3 looks better and have better animations, because it has. If you don't believe me, belive majority of players. I don't think people just decided to not trash witcher 3 for animations and trash MEA for no reasons. I think it's a very good chance that wticher 3 actually has acceptable animations while Andromeda is really strugling with that. If you make good games, people are happy, simple as that, we have witness it many, many times. There are always some trolls, but never enough to make anywhere near to small negative impact on the game. So if so many people are trashing something, it's a high possibility there is something to it. Now, problem with your take on this is, that you're nitpicking and analysing too much. When someone says "I think this picture looks better than the other one", they usually make judgement in few seconds without putting any effort into examining it. They don't examine the picture like you and go "oh, so this picture looks this good because author used higher quality paint, he used different colours, he used different technique to hide certain things and highlight others, he also had sex that day so he was in better mood than other artist, so thereofre ITS NOT FAIR TO SAY HIS PICTURE IS BETTER!.
And for your "Of course it matters. Because if people say that Witcher 3 facial animations were sooooo much better and just leave it at that, they're just fooling themselves." So, why shouldn't they just leave it at that? That's exactly your problem, you want to nitpick and examine it. Why does it matter how picture was painted? Only thing that matters is the result. And result is better in witcher, so yes, leave it at that.
|
|
panzerwzh
N3
All these violent delights have violent ends.
Posts: 298 Likes: 191
inherit
3787
0
Nov 25, 2017 14:02:23 GMT
191
panzerwzh
All these violent delights have violent ends.
298
Feb 23, 2017 18:10:41 GMT
February 2017
panzerwzh
|
Post by panzerwzh on Mar 19, 2017 19:19:51 GMT
long story short, don't outsource to the B team What if there is not A team left?
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,344 Likes: 20,697
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
20,697
midnight tea
8,344
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2017 19:29:37 GMT
Oh, so me pointing out that people have hung op on a few seconds of a cutscene even though we see the very same animation 90% of the time in the game (when we play femRyder) and nobody is having issues with it, is apparently "apologizing for shitty animations", instead of pointing out how ridiculous cherrypicking is? Right. No discussing with you. Whatever I say it will be "apologizing" to you, no matter what I said. So, if we sit down a group of people and show them bunch of witcher 3 scenes and bunch of MEA scenes, who do you think would win in animations/scenes department? A lot of it will depend which "bunch of scenes" we will be playing. I love how you just assume my arrogance - seems you indeed didn't read my comments where I praised Witcher 3's cutscene direction and just immediately went on offensive, because I dare to point out that the issue is more nuanced than just "good/bad facial animations". I mean, if you actually read what I said you'd know this. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy for a reason, you know. Dude, I'm not saying that MEA had no problem with animations - if you read what I said you'd know that my issue is that people are blowing things way out of proportion and are literally hunting for Every. Single. Minute. Problem. with animations in MEA and present it as if that's all we get, while many pretend that some other games have far superior animations, with NO regard for context or why actually is it that they're better or why people THINK they're better. ...And you throw a tantrum and accuse me of apologizing shitty animations, when I point out issues with subjective perception and discuss at depth what are differences between animations and what potentially could be done, in a thread dedicated to discuss that Hahahaha - oh if only it was so simple. The last controversy in gaming world before MEA animations was some people losing collective mind over one reviewer giving last Zelda title a score that is not 10/10 and subsequently turning on Horizon Zero Dawn and campaigning against it, just because they somehow think it's Zelda's competitor! Nevermind that HZD overall has solid reviews and reputation (and that's despite HZD having serious lipsync issues). Same thing happened with Witcher 3 and DAI. It was almost as if some people thought that if a person liked one game they can't like another - the crowds on Internet today seem to live on controversy and extreme polarization. I don't know which parts of Internet you are living, because even as a person who generally avoids drama I see "trashing" becoming the most common Internet past-time. And yes - in many respects that "trashing" was a way disproportionate reaction to a given 'controversy'. Heck, we had entire "Internet movements" created to trash things that are entirely blown out of proportion... Oh, so I am now nitpicking, even though my issue is with excessive nitpicking? That's hilarious. Right - because first impressions is what matters and subjectivity doesn't exist. It's not like people can like different things, or don't come to different conclusions when they actually pay more attention or think things through, etc... You're asking an actual artist why does it matter how the picture is painted ? And in a world where thousands of different art-styles and opinions about art exist because people care how picture was painted or why? ... And in a thread that people are asking themselves how we could make things better???????????????????????????????????????? Seriously, at this points it just sounds like you just don't want to hear that not everything in Witcher 3 is perfect (and that's even despite me praising CDPR for being clever with the cutscene direction and overall design that pulls away from some lackluster animations) more than anything else. That's... sad.
|
|
inherit
955
0
Jul 21, 2017 22:27:42 GMT
2,852
slimgrin
Poor cobblers make good shoes, they don't kill monsters.
1,055
Aug 13, 2016 17:21:05 GMT
August 2016
slimgrin
|
Post by slimgrin on Mar 19, 2017 19:47:40 GMT
I wonder if, later on in the game, scenes will be directed in such a way that you don't always see the character's face when talking. ME2 did this a lot. The scenes in general felt cinematic and in Andromeda they look like they do in a Beth game, just switching back and forth between characters at the same angle.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,344 Likes: 20,697
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
20,697
midnight tea
8,344
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2017 19:54:56 GMT
I wonder if, later on in the game, scenes will be directed in such a way that you don't always see the character's face when talking. ME2 did this a lot. The scenes in general felt cinematic and in Andromeda they look like they do in a Beth game, just switching back and forth between characters at the same angle. Most of these scenes are actually 'conversation wheel' scenes - in DAI they'd be an equivalent of conversation we have with NPCs with camera zoomed out. I wouldn't bet on actual cinematics being pulled away from the face much - but they will present a way more varied amount of different camera angles and cadres though. That's how you can distinguish between actual cinematic and 'conversation wheel' cutscene, actually. The 'conversation wheel' convos hardly ever present anything other than shot-reverse shot and that's true to pretty much all RPGs with voiced protag.
|
|
inherit
405
0
83
rpgalltheway
51
August 2016
rpgalltheway
|
Post by rpgalltheway on Mar 19, 2017 20:13:52 GMT
Software engineers. Bioware has a budget, they tend to direct that budget towards other aspects of a game... software engineering is not one of them (or rather, it is low on their totem pole of priorities.. as is evidenced in the lack of technical aptitude in most of their games). CD Projekt Red (in a documentary), invested heavily in software engineering for Witcher 3, relatively speaking to their budget I mean. They devised a complex highly efficient system that could create smooth, natural looking animations that were also easy to create on the fly for the dev team.. so when they needed new animations, the toolset was able to let them do so with ease. How they were able to do this and yet also maintain a stellar writing team, level / world designers, artists etc is beyond me.. though they did it a fraction of the cost of what Bioware spends on their games (to be fair, most of CD Projekt is in eastern europe where salaries are lower than north america). What they really needed to do was poach some software engineers from DICE that know the engine well and could help them devise better tools for the dev / animations team to work with... they are clearly working with a weak toolset in house or simply hired inferior animators (contractors possibly). I will never-ever understand people claiming that Witcher 3 facial animations are anywhere close to being industry's top tier. They are extremely basic most of the time. Characters speak with middle of their mouths. A lot of times they hardly move aside form lipsynch and light twitches around the eyes and brows. They're not horrible per se, but you can see even the developer not being confident in them, considering that many emotional cutscenes have been composed to OBSCURE facial expression, or keep them at the distance .
This scene is a great example of that. Note that 90% of expressions happen OFF-SCREEN. Characters are either turned back or hidden, only showing flashes of expressions that were fairly easy to render even 10 years ago. That is actually not criticism - I think CDPR was smart that way; they knew the character expressions could NOT carry the game, so they chose to compose scenes to obscure them and scenes be carried by context, Kuleshov effect or otherwise good body animations. DAI was also like that in many respects - it's actually been a trick for used the longest time. It's only now that the industry thinks that they can slowly turn camera's focus on faces. Not to mention that a lot of the reception depends on style of the game - in TW3 many people's faces are either covered with scars or grime (or near gothic make up, esp. in case of sorceresses), or their blank expressions are in tune with game's oftentimes dark tone, with many characters being worn by life. In contrast MEA is crisp and full of youthful, hopeful folks or frustrated higher-ups and has a very clean-cut style with vivid colors. ... Aaand instead of choosing to obscure the faces in some scenes, the camera is put squarely on them. And as much as I can see a large room of improvements in some regions of animation, I think many criticisms could have been nullified just by different cutscene direction. The camera is sometimes Just. Too. Close. To. The. Face. I also think that it was a mistake to overcompensate for criticism towards DAI and their zoomed-out conversations - even 'conversation wheel' cutscenes tend to bring camera too close. Addison's "cutscene" is a great example - I can only see people taking a mickey out of that 'conversation wheel' scene; not actual cutscenes with Addison in it. All in all I think someone in the direction grew a bit too confident with thinking that they can turn back camera to characters faces and letting it carry the scene. That's not to say that I think all of it is awful. I actually think that some of the scenes really work and there's a great deal of them where there... really is nothing wrong. Sadly, at this point confirmation bias runs rampant and some people pay only attention to when things go bad. I agree. CDPR has always been smart about that. They know they having quality animations across the board so the presentation is such that you don't notice them. They do this even with the saturation and contrast in some scenes which makes it look good. I think horizon uses these tricks as well. And yup this animation thing has gone way overboard this time. There are some really nice animations in this game. People only keep focusing on the very few bad ones. Personally I am not a fan of DAI styled zoomed out conversations though. But I agree, they over compensated.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,344 Likes: 20,697
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
20,697
midnight tea
8,344
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2017 20:40:43 GMT
I agree. CDPR has always been smart about that. They know they having quality animations across the board so the presentation is such that you don't notice them. They do this even with the saturation and contrast in some scenes which makes it look good. I think horizon uses these tricks as well. And yup this animation thing has gone way overboard this time. There are some really nice animations in this game. People only keep focusing on the very few bad ones. Personally I am not a fan of DAI styled zoomed out conversations though. But I agree, they over compensated. While I don't necessarily mind DAI's zoomed out conversations (a thing done specifically to draw away from a fact that there are not that many facial animations going on during those segments) I do get why there are people that don't like them - a closer camera gives a sense of intimacy between a PC and NPC. Plus.. let's face it.. it makes the whole thing look more 'cinematic', even though calling those convos cinematics is a stretch if I've ever seen one. The problem is that I have is that these 'conversation wheel' convos will never be fully animated, while at the same time they're a staple of big RPGs with voiceovers. It's been a thing that I was curious how many studios would approach and it is quite apparent that MEA went in opposite direction to DAI. Obviously there are some lessons to learn here.
|
|
inherit
3810
0
Jun 12, 2019 20:05:41 GMT
185
smudgedhorizon
86
February 2017
smudgedhorizon
|
Post by smudgedhorizon on Mar 19, 2017 21:26:58 GMT
Played the 10 hour trial. There were maybe two or three instances where I specifically noticed a character pull a really daft face that made me giggle because it was rubbish. Each time it lasted a split second then was over. It wasn't at all game breaking, it didn't spoil anything, didn't ruin immersion and it was nowhere even close to as bad as the internet had me believe. Most of the time it was fine. I didn't notice any funny walks at any point. In fact I barely noticed the animations full stop because I just loved the game, I was so into the environments and the story and the characters that some minor imperfections in the animations just don't even register. Cannot wait till release, I'm dying to play more. Before I played the trial myself I was devastated believing the game was absolute garbage based on all the videos and previews. Couldn't be further front the truth - I LOVED it, and I really didn't think I would! Can't quite believe how much fuss is being made when the game looks beautiful - I spent ages just admiring the places I was exploring and enjoying chatting to characters. Anyone who doesn't play it over this silly animation fiasco is truly missing out on a great game, and it's a shame this has got so out of hand.
|
|
inherit
2279
0
114
Blackheart
98
December 2016
blackheart
|
Post by Blackheart on Mar 19, 2017 21:57:50 GMT
A lot of it will depend which "bunch of scenes" we will be playing. I love how you just assume my arrogance - seems you indeed didn't read my comments where I praised Witcher 3's cutscene direction and just immediately went on offensive, because I dare to point out that the issue is more nuanced than just "good/bad facial animations". Dude, I'm not saying that MEA had no problem with animations - if you read what I said you'd know that my issue is that people are blowing things way out of proportion and are literally hunting for Every. Single. Minute. Problem. with animations in MEA and present it as if that's all we get, while many pretend that some other games have far superior animations, with NO regard for context or why actually is it that they're better or why people THINK they're better. ...And you throw a tantrum and accuse me of apologizing shitty animations, when I point out issues with subjective perception and discuss at depth what are differences between animations and what potentially could be done, in a thread dedicated to discuss that I don't know which parts of Internet you are living, because even a person who generally avoids drama, I see "trashing" becoming the most common Internet pasttime. And yes - in many respects that "trashing" was a way disproportionate reaction to a given 'controversy'. Heck, we had entire "Internet movements" created to trash things that are entirely blown out of proportion... Oh, so I am now nitpicking, even though my issue is with excessive nitpicking? That's hilarious. Right - because first impressions is what matters and subjectivity doesn't exist. It's not like people can like different things, or don't come to different conclusions when they actually pay more attention or think things through, etc... You're asking an actual artist why does it matter how the picture is painted ? And in a world where thousands of different art-styles and opinions about art exist because people care how picture was painted or how? All I wanted to point out is that there you're not going to convince anyone that their opinion about witcher or ME1 having better animations or cutscenes, is wrong, because if they break it into pieces and analyse it, they would see that in ME1 characters had dark eyes, dark brows and heavy eyeliner or that Witcher has different technique for conversations. I don't know why you have a hard time realizing that this doesn't matter. People only want animations and cutscenes to look good, convincable, appropriate, they don't care what makes them this way. And of course, you can gives ideas on how to improve, but unfortunately you also decided to tell others who don't like MEA animations or think they are inferior to witcher, that they are exaggerating and then you proceed to make make detailed analysis in order to try and prove your point. If you seriously think MEA animations are not inferior, then let's just end it here, because there is absolutely no reason in debating this further.
|
|
fade9wayz
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: Aresis01
Posts: 190 Likes: 286
inherit
1127
0
Jun 18, 2017 22:17:50 GMT
286
fade9wayz
190
August 2016
fade9wayz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Aresis01
|
Post by fade9wayz on Mar 19, 2017 23:09:30 GMT
Well, any professional animator would tell you that facial animations in TW3 are actually quite poor (it is so very convenient that the protagonist can't express big feelings because of his mutation). They are just, as midnight tea pointed out, cleverly hidden. People really underestimate how costly full hand-made or full mocap are, and their respective limitations. As a professional animator myself, I wish they would pour more budget and effort in animation. I can however see that what didn't go in animation went into fun combat mechanics and good level designs, which arguably, matter more when it comes to a game. A better scene direction is what MEA lacks more than anything else. Again, midnight tea is very right when she says it would have mitigated a lot of criticism.
|
|
II So Close II
N1
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: II So Close II
Posts: 36 Likes: 37
inherit
5059
0
37
II So Close II
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
36
Mar 19, 2017 13:30:02 GMT
March 2017
soclose
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
II So Close II
|
Post by II So Close II on Mar 19, 2017 23:19:06 GMT
They have done, in my opinion, fully acceptable animation in previous games. What's a bit concerning is how they have, it would appear, gone backwards in MEA. Some of the animations are, without hyperbole, on par with games from 15 years ago. The lack of body language, unnatural head turns, unrelated emotional responses etc. just aren't acceptable in a game of this supposed calibre, in this year.
|
|
ApocAlypsE
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 858 Likes: 951
inherit
737
0
Nov 28, 2024 20:01:23 GMT
951
ApocAlypsE
858
August 2016
apocalypse
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by ApocAlypsE on Mar 19, 2017 23:29:58 GMT
I suspect it's the engine, so inflexible its painful, everything is a pain to do there apparently. How to improve? Switch to UE4. Hire someone that actually knows how to do animations. Hire competent programmers. It won't happen. Why? You all know why.
|
|
inherit
3369
0
May 12, 2017 10:06:02 GMT
261
simsimillia
215
February 2017
simsimillia
|
Post by simsimillia on Mar 19, 2017 23:40:35 GMT
I suspect it's the engine, so inflexible its painful, everything is a pain to do there apparently. How to improve? Switch to UE4. Hire someone that actually knows how to do animations. Hire competent programmers. It won't happen. Why? You all know why. We all know they're not gonna do that. And unless they headhunt animators and programmers from DICE, hiring new people ain't gonna help. The people who worked on Andromeda now have a couple of years of experience with Frostbite, why replace them now?
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,344 Likes: 20,697
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
20,697
midnight tea
8,344
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2017 23:41:23 GMT
All I wanted to point out is that there you're not going to convince anyone that their opinion about witcher or ME1 having better animations or cutscenes, is wrong, because if they break it into pieces and analyse it, they would see that in ME1 characters had dark eyes, dark brows and heavy eyeliner or that Witcher has different technique for conversations. I don't know why you have a hard time realizing that this doesn't matter. People only want animations and cutscenes to look good, convincable, appropriate, they don't care what makes them this way. And of course, you can gives ideas on how to improve, but unfortunately you also decided to tell others who don't like MEA animations or think they are inferior to witcher, that they are exaggerating and then you proceed to make make detailed analysis in order to try and prove your point. If you seriously think MEA animations are not inferior, then let's just end it here, because there is absolutely no reason in debating this further. I... huh - you indeed don't read what is being written; all you care about is strawmen you create. First - show me a point where I said that "Witcher animations are inferior to MEA"? Because I'm pretty sure that while I said that Witcher 3 animations aren't that great, I didn't make any direct comparisons with MEA and declared MEA's superior. At best I think both have their share of problems; the major difference being that TW3 has a different scene direction. Second - the part about exaggeration was a general point that has nothing to do with Witcher. That you connect everything with Witcher and have a kneejerk reaction about it lands squarely on you. And I don't know why you have a hard time realizing that if people didn't care about what makes animations better, they wouldn't be creating a thread and asking what can be done with the problem of animations . The only thing that baffles me now is that you come here and throw a fit at people who analyze the problem in a thread dedicated to analyzing the problem. It seems that you don't care about anything other than wanting me to leave Witcher now, rather than having a discussion about what actually matters. If that is so, I'd ask you to stop responding to me anyhow, because there's nothing productive that can come out of it.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,344 Likes: 20,697
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
20,697
midnight tea
8,344
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2017 23:45:49 GMT
I suspect it's the engine, so inflexible its painful, everything is a pain to do there apparently. How to improve? Switch to UE4. Hire someone that actually knows how to do animations. Hire competent programmers. It won't happen. Why? You all know why. ... Why would they do that? The facial animations in Frostbite could be inflexible and painful for all we know, but we have entire EA working on the engine now, and a much greater pool of programmers and animators across multiple studios to find a solution. That's sort of the big reason why Bioware has moved to FB in the first place... I mean, nevermind that there's more to gaming than facial animations, important as they are and so far the reception of gameplay, level design and environments leans on very positive for MEA. So there's no reason they should drop the engine just because ONE feature causes problems - rather, it's more logical to invest resources into improving that aspect of Frostbite.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
49
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 0:07:18 GMT
Meanwhile, in the troll-infested swap that is the internet... kotaku.com/scumbags-harass-woman-for-working-on-mass-effect-andro-1793410647... because of facial animations I think when people start blowing things out of proportion and focusing on the negatives... thats basically what happens... kinda reminds me of the Green Hornet movie when Seth Rogen uses a newspaper to blow the green hornet out of proportion and it basically ends up with people getting killed Although this is less extreme ofc Anyway... I actually think the engine is the biggest er thing here I guess... ive noticed a few changes between Biowares earlier games and their latest ones (easiest for me to see because im kinda playing through the ME trilogy for the first time)... The games using Frostbite have brighter colors in instead of the darker ones in the earlier games (like ME2 which im playing right now where everything is brown and silver, basically), there are complaints about character design and now facial animations too... I think the engine wont do certain things... I might be wrong since all I know is that its used for DAI, MEA and the battlefield games (which ive never played) but I dont think its designed for what BioWare wants it to do... I mean I really cant see the same engine working perfectly for an rpg and a shooter, I mean theyre like total opposites... DAI and the battlefield games couldnt be further apart... I think if BioWare kept using the same engine in the ME games and the DA games that they were before (although probably updated) I dont think we would be seeing problems with character design or animations and also the changes in gameplay too I guess... I mean, I look at a shooting game, and I look at DAI... the needs are completely different for the 2 games
|
|
inherit
405
0
83
rpgalltheway
51
August 2016
rpgalltheway
|
Post by rpgalltheway on Mar 20, 2017 0:25:37 GMT
I think we can just do away with suggestions like "Hire Competent People" If you think about it for a minute why would any company with limited resources that wants to make profit hire incompetent people? It doesn't even make sense. First of all its extremely difficult to get into game development. And AAA studios won't even hire people without experience. So assuming that people being hired in these studios are incompetent is just plain ridiculous.
The bigger problem here as I mentioned is resource allocation and management. Unless animation becomes cheap to do, how can bioware tackle this problem with limited resources?
|
|
inherit
955
0
Jul 21, 2017 22:27:42 GMT
2,852
slimgrin
Poor cobblers make good shoes, they don't kill monsters.
1,055
Aug 13, 2016 17:21:05 GMT
August 2016
slimgrin
|
Post by slimgrin on Mar 20, 2017 0:32:00 GMT
I think we can just do away with suggestions like "Hire Competent People" If you think about it for a minute why would any company with limited resources that wants to make profit hire incompetent people? It doesn't even make sense. First of all its extremely difficult to get into game development. And AAA studios won't even hire people without experience. So assuming that people being hired in these studios are incompetent is just plain ridiculous. The bigger problem here as I mentioned is resource allocation and management. Unless animation becomes cheap to do, how can bioware tackle this problem with limited resources? If there's cronyism at EA, then it's really easy to hire incompetent people. It's a problem in every industry. People get hired by who they know rather than their skills. It's clear whoever they hired for animations, for instance, are not as skilled as those they hired for combat design. Some people are blaming the tech...I don't buy it. Frostbyte is an advanced engine.
|
|
ATR16
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
PSN: pyder31
Posts: 367 Likes: 603
inherit
3547
0
Oct 15, 2018 16:50:11 GMT
603
ATR16
367
Feb 13, 2017 19:30:00 GMT
February 2017
atr16
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
ATR16
pydsie31
pyder31
|
Post by ATR16 on Mar 20, 2017 0:36:50 GMT
Yeah, do a better job. From the animators going over a scene, to the people up top who handle goal setting and scope.
I think this game had a similar issue that DAI had in that they wanted to do so much, bragged about so much they can do, how much they could do, but then when it got close to crunch time they had to start cutting stuff to meet launch.
They had to do that in DAI, but I think they were more finished or had more time to add polish with that final 6 week delay they put on the game. For this one, I don't think they had the time to go over and do the final polishing.
The whole game through the trial feels like the rough draft of a script or film that they hadn't finished going over for final editing.
|
|
ATR16
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
PSN: pyder31
Posts: 367 Likes: 603
inherit
3547
0
Oct 15, 2018 16:50:11 GMT
603
ATR16
367
Feb 13, 2017 19:30:00 GMT
February 2017
atr16
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
ATR16
pydsie31
pyder31
|
Post by ATR16 on Mar 20, 2017 0:38:10 GMT
I think we can just do away with suggestions like "Hire Competent People" If you think about it for a minute why would any company with limited resources that wants to make profit hire incompetent people? It doesn't even make sense. First of all its extremely difficult to get into game development. And AAA studios won't even hire people without experience. So assuming that people being hired in these studios are incompetent is just plain ridiculous. The bigger problem here as I mentioned is resource allocation and management. Unless animation becomes cheap to do, how can bioware tackle this problem with limited resources? I haven't worked for Bioware, but from what rumblings you hear from some former employees it sounds like there is a lot of nepotism and politics in the office in terms of hiring and promotion to positions.
|
|
inherit
405
0
83
rpgalltheway
51
August 2016
rpgalltheway
|
Post by rpgalltheway on Mar 20, 2017 0:40:17 GMT
I think we can just do away with suggestions like "Hire Competent People" If you think about it for a minute why would any company with limited resources that wants to make profit hire incompetent people? It doesn't even make sense. First of all its extremely difficult to get into game development. And AAA studios won't even hire people without experience. So assuming that people being hired in these studios are incompetent is just plain ridiculous. The bigger problem here as I mentioned is resource allocation and management. Unless animation becomes cheap to do, how can bioware tackle this problem with limited resources? If there's cronyism at EA, then it's really easy to hire incompetent people. It's a problem in every industry. People get hired by who they know rather than their skills. It's clear whoever they hired for animations, for instance, are not as skilled as those they hired for combat design. Some people are blaming the tech...I don't buy it. Frostbyte is an advanced engine. But if that was the case then all animations would be bad, which is not the case. Some of the animations in early access are really good. Which just means that they lacked the resources for doing it for all of them
|
|
ATR16
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
PSN: pyder31
Posts: 367 Likes: 603
inherit
3547
0
Oct 15, 2018 16:50:11 GMT
603
ATR16
367
Feb 13, 2017 19:30:00 GMT
February 2017
atr16
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
ATR16
pydsie31
pyder31
|
Post by ATR16 on Mar 20, 2017 0:44:17 GMT
The only problems with the game aren't the animations, those are just the big talking point because they're hilariously inept for 2017 in a AAA title, and also because Bioware devs had said "We fixed the faces. They work great now". And then some of the first things you come across are faces not working.
There are problems with combat, performance, writing, some dialogue and a general lack of attention to detail.
|
|
brownfinger
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Calamity Bound
Posts: 68 Likes: 200
inherit
4411
0
May 24, 2021 21:39:19 GMT
200
brownfinger
68
Mar 12, 2017 23:53:45 GMT
March 2017
brownfinger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Calamity Bound
|
Post by brownfinger on Mar 20, 2017 0:45:59 GMT
I've also made the observation that people are piling on. These are the times we live in, always looking for that next outrage. The faces are not up to the standard set by superior games, not by a longshot. They need to prioritize it in the future, but still be themselves. Because all other indications are that the remaining aspects of this game will please me greatly. It won't matter, people are far too eager to tear this thing apart. I'm moving forward.
|
|
inherit
98
0
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Mar 20, 2017 0:47:48 GMT
The only problems with the game aren't the animations, those are just the big talking point because they're hilariously inept for 2017 in a AAA title, and also because Bioware devs had said "We fixed the faces. They work great now". And then some of the first things you come across are faces not working. There are problems with combat, performance, writing, some dialogue and a general lack of attention to detail. I've heard nothing but praise for the combat. What are you referring to?
|
|
inherit
955
0
Jul 21, 2017 22:27:42 GMT
2,852
slimgrin
Poor cobblers make good shoes, they don't kill monsters.
1,055
Aug 13, 2016 17:21:05 GMT
August 2016
slimgrin
|
Post by slimgrin on Mar 20, 2017 0:50:52 GMT
If there's cronyism at EA, then it's really easy to hire incompetent people. It's a problem in every industry. People get hired by who they know rather than their skills. It's clear whoever they hired for animations, for instance, are not as skilled as those they hired for combat design. Some people are blaming the tech...I don't buy it. Frostbyte is an advanced engine. But if that was the case then all animations would be bad, which is not the case. Some of the animations in early access are really good. I can't agree. Some are competent, but none looked good to me. Unless we're talking movement animations during exploration and combat. Those are good imo. It's entirely possible the animators didn't get enough time to do their jobs right, but again that's a top level management issue.
|
|