The Old Guard (Ye Olde Cullen Thread v4.0 + gen discussion)

Neutral Hawke not too much credible (for me). I tried, but the situation is so clear: Kirkwall's Knight Commander too cruel, and Elthina know this, but still don't do anything.

A(n apostate!) mage character or a character from a(n apostate!) mage family don't have any logic reason to support templars (only, if s/he want to be vicomt –and Meredi's puppet–) or stay neutral: After that we see, what happened Karl for an escape attempt, and what would happen with Ella, if we don't follow and save her, we know, that Bethany in the Circle not in safe (It's maybe again just me, but I can't imagine, that my sister would some similar situation, I would be able to support his guards, or stay in neutral in this issue).

Mage Hawke have one personal reason for support to Templars (only at the end!), if s/he dont want to fight against (Templar) Carver.
Any other reason only hypocrisy: similar a runaway slave, who support slavery or neutral on this issue...

Just imagine Fenris, as he sold into slavery elves or help to catch runavay slaves, because he support the slavery. Apostate Hawke's situation  is similar, because s/he is free, but the other mages are prisoners: the Kirkwall Circle is a prison, no doubt (I think all Circles is a prisons, but I know, much people only see, that the mages' live in the circles are fine: they got food, books, beds and friends, then there is no reason for dissatisfaction  (as the prisoners in the prison... I don't understand, why people dont want to live in prison...).

One more addition for the proof that we cant stay neutral in Kirkwall: some Templars themselves also rebel against Meredith.

Personally I like the friendship/rivalry system, but this need a general improvement.

The different of Anders and Fenris rivalry: Anders in rivalry at the end of game totally crushed and blames only Justice for everything, so: I think is not a healthy path in romance... (yes, probably this is his fate according the writers...), Fenris in rivalry more calm, and don't blame the magic/mages anymore, then rivalry path in romance with him is hard, but not unhealthy.
What Anders ruined (except the Chantry...)? He only once lie, but later honest in everything, true a bit vaguely worded, but he have his logical reason for it... He dont betray Hawke, but Hawke can betray him, and can murder him. (Of course the man can be angry, because he lied, and don't want to say his reasons, but he later explain that, as I see this is annoying, but acceptable. And he virtually say what he plan that not a peaceful thing, and the implementation requires victims. – he say something similar: easy to support a cause for as long as there are no victims (I can't remember the exact wording.)

This is my opinion, I know, so many people feel that Anders a traitor, but as I see, he only follow his way. He always warn Hawke, he is not an ideal lover. He was honest.


I know: this is an extreme, biased opinion. I just wanted to show an another viewpoint.

My one Bethany is Warden – Circle Mage Bethany just was an example, no logical reason from Hawke leave Bethany home, because for an apostate Kirkwall more dangerous than the Deep Roads, as I see...

Yes, I can imagine a Hawke (rather non-mage), who hate magic, but I think, if s/he dont hate Bethany, he will never support Templars or stay neutral. It is another matter if Bethany die on the Deep Roads (a bit paranoid, or lawful) Hawke can support the templars.

My Hawkes able to live with this knowledge. And don't forget: innocent mages for ages die by the hand of the Chantry especially in Kirkwall. The war is unavoidable, and any rebellion is bloody and requires innocent victims. 

The betrayal a matter of comprehension: I do not consider Anders a traitor. He never promised anything, certainly not peaceful future, but I can understand, why people consider him a traitor.

I think we must to realize: that Kirkwall is not our relatively peaceful world*, this is a fantasy world, full of cruelty. I think, exploding the Chantry is fit this world, and no more cruel, than any other thing, that totally usually there, and supported by law (the Circle system, for example...)

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*In the oppressor systems in our world the rebels also have cruel decision and these are mostly declared righteous by the history; just depends on who is the winner and who appreciates.

Thedas definitely cruel: Alienages, imprison innocent people, torture them with assist by the Chant of Light, slavery/slave trading... 
Yes, I said: a lawful non-mage Hawke can agree with Templars, if Bethany already died. (I'm not able to play lawful character in Dragon Age, only neutral – or possibly caotic. Despite that I like Aveline, Cassandra and Cullen – but very dislike Vivienne. Plus I can understand Meredit's behavior, because she is paranoid – she is one of my favorite enemies.)
Exploding the Chantry less terrible thing, than to imprison innocent people for a life, and torture them, if the prison guards find that fun, without consecvences and with supported by the Chantry approves.

Not mentioned, that Sebastian had done in Inquisiton, that much more morally questionable, than what Anders did. But I rarely saw, that people to judge Sebastian for it (except one-two Anders fanatic), because "Sebastian a bit boring but good-hearted knight in the shiny armour". This immaculate princeling just want to annex a bleeding city-state just because his own personal vengeance. (Thanks to Cullen's Army, he will retreat.) I don't exactly hate Sebastian, just hate this double standard: Sebastian nice guy, Anders unacceptable... honestly I cant see too much different, unless: Anders have a true purpose (with morally questionable tools), Sebastian only have personal revenge (so: morally questionable reason with morally questionable tools – abuse of his power for personal revenge).

"The writing on [insert Dragon Age character] is inconsistent, underwritten and frankly illogical." Fixed it

Headcanons are your friend, people! If you accept what the writers want to do to your babies it will lead to naught but a black spiral of sadness and regret. As far as I'm aware, Fenris and Hawke are living in a little cottage in a beautiful meadow where they are raising a bundle of beautiful adopted children, not to mention a heap of dogs, cats, and various other animals. (Also, Solas is in love with my sweet Lavellan boy and will come back to him any day now, and Iron Bull and my other Lavellan have consistently beautiful, gloriously loving and completely vanilla sex.) 

*fingers in ears* La la la la la la!

I would say it's extremely in-character for him.

Everything he does in DAI is precisely what he vowed to do at the end of DA2, provided you spared Anders. No-one is saying that Sebastian isn't a good man at his core, but it's a recurring plot point with him that he tends to let his desire for vengeance get the better of him, as well as temporarily override his moral compass.

I think that's one of the reasons why Cullen is the only one of the advisors to side with Aveline in "Annexing Kirkwall". Cullen probably recognises the anger that Sebastian is displaying as the same kind that he held for many years towards mages, as well as make Meredith into the type of person she was. He knows more than anyone, where that anger can lead and how it can twist even good people into a dangerous zealots.

Cullen might think the best thing to do is kick Sebastian back to Starkhaven, give him more time to cool down and come to terms with Elthina's death... and hopefully he won't lash out at the people of an innocent city-state for the actions of an apostate that's long fled.

(Plus we know that Cullen's friends with Aveline, so he's doing her a massive favour getting him off her back. He also doesn't want Sebastian to wreck the place, just after he spent the previous two years leading the Templars in trying to put it back together again)

Oh! How nice romantic dreams, and how naive!

(Don't worries, me too... I like the idea, that my Hawke and Anders live happily and in harmony with Justice and with their mage rebellion, and wandering from town to town, in exile and help to mages – and Hawke never will back to Kirkwall without Anders. My another Hawke help to Fenris to free the slaves and mages, and maybe later they will back to Hawke Mansion, and my Willard's love toward Cullen not totally hopeless... etc. But this is ridiculous, not it?)

Oh, I agree. And, I can imagine lots of scenarios where Seb actually acted on his thoughts of vengeance toward Anders, since he is rather an expert in long-term, methodical payback. But ... um, mounting an armed campaign against a neighboring city, because of people who do not even live there anymore is just... 

(but anyway, part of my point was that... folks probably don't use Seb and Annexing Kirkwall as an example of failed moral compass because they either don't bother thinking about Seb one way or another, or find the quest ridiculous.  )

Not ONLY towards Anders. Sebastian seemingly vengeful, this is his weakness, I think, he realize this, and also the power thirst (just see the scene after his personal quest). Sebastian can be dangerous (with political power). So, I can accept, that so much people think, that's OOC, (as for example according Fenris would be nice to bribe poor Thrask, or that Anders want to give Fenris back to Danarius, Merrill give rivalry points, if Hawke don't kill her clan...), but not totally OOC. I can imagine, that Sebastian able to fulfill his threat. Sadly. 

Sebastian is very controversial character, its hard to decide, what is OOC in his case. He is hot-headed, but vengeful, he good-hearted, but only as long as receives a personal grievance. He able to forgive, but not always. According him the slavery is evil, but imprison the mage children is right.

Ha! I've said something very similar with my Hawke(s) and Anders. They might be drowning in cats, healing the sick, teaching young mages, raising an orphan... But they are living happily ever after.

You read me BioWare? HAPPILY and SAFELY ever after. Don't write anymore lies.

Just sayin'.

Bad enough I have to make Alistair king just make this happen. I prefer him as a Warden...

Now to wait and worry about Solas and Dorian.

I know, I prefer him as Warden, too, traipsing about with my lady Aeducan, being bad ass together. I prefer that as my canon world state to go along with my f!Hawkebela world state. Combined with my f!Cadash x Blackwall playthrough, it's what I like to call the GIRL POWER world state haha

But... they'd have to actually take fanfiction writers seriously   And really, who does...   (I think some of the writers don't like fans playing with their babies, either. They don't seem to mind reblogging/retweeting/posting fan art though.)

They did that once, tho, and had some very serious problems with how to judge them. So I think fanfic is just problematic for them in general, for this and what Artemis  mentioned. 

Definitely still not bitter that I didn't win, or that people who read it said it was boring.